Several Democrats joined President Bush yesterday in rebuking Howard Dean

[dajoki]

WP
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/06/AR2005120601707.html?referrer=email

Democrats Fear Backlash at Polls for Antiwar Remarks

By Jim VandeHei and Shalaigh Murray
Washington Post Staff Writers
Wednesday, December 7, 2005

Strong antiwar comments in recent days by House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi and Democratic National Committee Chairman Howard Dean have opened anew a party rift over Iraq, with some lawmakers warning that the leaders' rhetorical blasts could harm efforts to win control of Congress next year.

Several Democrats joined President Bush yesterday in rebuking Dean's declaration to a San Antonio radio station Monday that "the idea that we're going to win the war in Iraq is an idea which is just plain wrong."

The critics said that comment could reinforce popular perceptions that the party is weak on military matters and divert attention from the president's growing political problems on the war and other issues. "Dean's take on Iraq makes even less sense than the scream in Iowa: Both are uninformed and unhelpful," said Rep. Jim Marshall (D-Ga.), recalling Dean's famous election-night roar after stumbling in Iowa during his 2004 presidential bid.

Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee Chairman Rahm Emanuel (Ill.) and Rep. Steny H. Hoyer (Md.), the second-ranking House Democratic leader, have told colleagues that Pelosi's recent endorsement of a speedy withdrawal, combined with her claim that more than half of House Democrats support her position, could backfire on the party, congressional sources said.

[waiting for hope]

1. If it backfires on the party

that would be a shame.....perhaps politicians should start listening to the people - What ever happened to "For the people, By the people"?

[Skink]

2. Dean tried the Goverment for the people etc.

See what happened.

[waiting for hope]

4. Yeah -

but I honestly think it was the "hoot and holler" that did him in.

[Savannah Progressive]

18. No it wasn't the scream

It was the myth of Kerry's "electability" that did Dean in. Once again we let tje Repugnik Media pick our candidate.

[skipos]

25. Who thought Kerry was the most electable? Not me.

Democrats were dying to rally behind any democrat that was the clear frontrunner. For awhile it was Dean. After Iowa it was Kerry. If someone else would have upset Dean in Iowa, that person probably would have went on to win the nomination in a landslide too. Many dems were too eager to rally behind anyone, without actually thinking about whether or not that person was the best candidate.

I think Kerry's nomination had little to do with electability, and everything to do with Iowa.

[Critters2]

44. Apparently you weren't IN Iowa

I was, and the Kerry campaign was already pushing the "electability" shit at the caucuses. That's why Kerry took my caucus. He did two things. He got every veteran in town (well, the Dem ones) to vote for him, playing the idea that Dean hadn't served and didn't respect the troops "in harm's way". And he harped on electability. I spoke for Dean in my caucus, and the only response I got was "He's not electable".

And who declared him unelectable? The DNC and the DLC. They undermined him in the caucuses, which killed his chances.....which elected Bush.

So much for electability.

[dajoki]

47. throw the MSM...

into that mix.

[Critters2]

48. Sorry

I too often think of the DLC and MSM as one and the same.

[dajoki]

49. you may be correct n/t

[TriMetFan]

63. I always wondered what had happen.

It had taken me some time to like Dean and when I started too very thing fail apart for Dean. Don't get me wrong I like Kerry but I think Dean would have been more for the people.

[mtnsnake]

67. I agree that Kerry's electability was a myth

The only thing that gave me hope he could win was that I considered the imbecile he was running against. However, I forget the speech he made right after he won the primaries, but after watching him I told myself this guy is unelectable. Then he grew on me, only because I wanted to beat Bush so bad, and I forgot about his unelectability. As time wore on during the campaign, however, it became evident that he and his handlers were letting it all slip away. They turned the other cheek, they never responded, they had Kerry make huge gaffs in his speeches, their timing was off, their image-making tactics backfired. Many just didn't know what Kerry stood for or who he really was because Kerry never really explained things clearly. Too many questions in the minds of the sheep who would rather be strayed by the moron in office. After it was all said and done, it was obvious that Kerry was indeed unelectable, at least for that year and that particular campaign. I think his campaign managers and handlers had most to do with it.

[ProudDad]

72. Actually

it was the right-wing media pumping up the myth of Dean as loose cannon.

They couldn't handle the idea of a(n almost) real progressive getting the nomination.

[Critters2]

77. The DLC pushed that myth too

and lost us the election.

[leesa]

54. What happend? People like you got hoodwinked? What exactly happend?

[dajoki]

5. gone and forgotten n/t

[Montauk6]

71. The problem is, what backfires on the party, goes DOUBLE for the nation.

[saracat]

3. Well if that isn't typical DLC. They haven't been backing anything

Kerry or Murtha said either. What chicken shits. I wish Dean would separate himself from them entirely. Emmanuel is single handedly ruining the congressional races. No one is getting any support.

[dajoki]

7. lately...

he's been criticizing our own party so much it's kind of suspicious.

[depakid]

61. the Dems are bucking to lose in 2006- and it's Emmanuel

and others like him that are helping ensure that they do- for a 7th year in a row.

Actually, it's gotten to the point where the Dems deserve to lose. They refuse to nationlize the elections, they legitimize Republican policies and don't have they don't have the discipline back each other up and stand for something as a party.

[no_hypocrisy]

6. What? Where are Hillary and Joe? Don't they need to condemn too?

[dajoki]

8. hillary's...

worried about flag burning.

[Clarkie1]

9. Dean's words need context.

I think Dean probably would prefer that his words not be taken out of context. I don't think Dean intended his words to be interpreted in the way that they were. I read that a spokesperson for Dean said Republicans were "cherry-picking" his words and it is not helpful for fellow Dems to be cherry-picking his words as well.

We are not going to win in Iraq by primarily militarily means. We are not going to win the war in Iraq merely by staying however long it takes and having "resolve." "Complete victory" is a dangerous concept; we need to do what we can do realistically to help Iraq and secure the region. We are not going to achieve what is best for Iraq, the region, or America by "staying the course." The policy and approach needs to be changed.

[dajoki]

14. Rahm...

is the chairman of the DCCC. he's supposed to HELP dems get elected not condemn them.

[Cha]

28. According to "The Nation",

rahm was on the wrong side of a victorious Social Security strategy, too..

snip~

"Anatomy of a Victory"

"These efforts were buoyed by Democratic House and Senate leaders Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid, who resisted demands by pundits and New Democrats like Rahm Emanuel and Gene Sperling that the Democrats come up with their own plan. Pelosi and Reid made the wise strategic decision to keep the focus on Bush's plan. The more Bush traveled and spoke about it, the less people liked it and the more they began to question his judgment and priorities. Democrats learned the value of a unified no."



http://www.thenation.com/doc/20051219/editors

[dajoki]

29. thank you...

i subscribe to The Nation and read this.

[Cha]

32. I love getting The Nation in

mail and reading it in the sauna. This was an amazing article to me cause the reason I got into politics in 2000 was SS..little did I know :(

But, to think That was the start of bush's "unraveling" is mind boggling! :)

[dajoki]

35. my wife and i...

read it together on the couch.

[Cha]

38. Sweet!

How fortunate to have someone close to you who cares enough about our Country to read "The Nation" with. :)

[dajoki]

39. yeah...

sometimes we get pretty angry at what's happening to our country, and other times you just have to laugh or it will drive you nuts.:toast:

[Andromeda]

34. Thanks, zidzi...

Good article!

[Cha]

36. You're Welcome,

Andromeda! If only we could implement that Strategy for Victory on all our battles with the bushites.

[Andromeda]

40. Yeah!

:thumbsup:

[ProudDad]

73. I get so fed up with

this bullsh*t concept.

The U.S. invades a sovereign nation, kills tens of thousands of its citizens, allows widespread looting, fires the indigenous army, passes laws privatizing the wealth of the nation, sets unelected corporations to run everything with their armed possies...

And whines when the citizens of that country fight back in an indigenous, guerrilla war against their occupiers.

Can't "win" this shit, bunkie.

In fact, the ONLY way the U.S. can "win" is get the f*ck out and let the Iraqi people run their own country. The only way the U.S. can "help" is by paying reparations for the damage and death they've caused.

[Idioteque]

10. Jim Marshall is 100% pro-war...

...don't take anything he says seriously.

""Dean's take on Iraq makes even less sense than the scream in Iowa: Both are uninformed and unhelpful,"

Yeah...well fuck you buddy!

[jackbourassa]

15. Jim Marshall is also 100% DLC

Word to the wise...if ever there is an article in either the Washington Post or the Wall Street Journal with a story tag that involves "Democrats unhappy with Dean" or something like that...it's because it came from the DLC.

This is like the 150th such story (a bit of an embellishment) since Dean won the chairmanship away from them.

I knew from reading the title of this thread...exactly what it was, where it came from, and who was behind it.

The DLC are the most disruptive force within the Democratic Party...it's unbelievable.

DLC message to Democrats: Vote for us, and shut your fucking faces!

[AntiCoup2K4]

21. Is Jim Marshall related to that PNAC/DLC traitorous whore Will Marshall?

Either way, fuck him. And cut this treasonous cancer out of the Democratic Party.

[reformedrepub]

56. and you

expect a Democrat to win in Georgia how?? By being anti-war in one of the most conservative states in the nation? You remember Max Cleland? You want another Republican to take a seat away from a Dem?

[Vinnie From Indy]

11. Don't be fooled by this obvious bit of propaganda

Certainly their is ALWAYS a Democrat or two that can found with a position counter to the majority within the party. Do not be fooled. BushCo. uses guys like Lieberman, Marshal and anyone else that fits nicely into their psyop plan.

The whores of the gargantuan corporate media entities are spinning THE EXACT SAME STORY. It isn't an accident and it isn't a coincidence. These reports about the Dems being completley fractured about opposing Smirky's disasterous war policies are not proven by simply quoting a FEW Democrats that have no balls, are DINOS or are BushCo sympathizers.

[Strawman]

59. Exactly. They aren't trotting out Ron Paul and Freedom Fry Guy

and saying the same thing about * and the Repugs are they?

[bahrbearian]

12. It's just the DLC Whip Masters trying to keep the Cattle together..

there is a thunder storm coming.

[neuvocat]

13. Fine. Let them lose the next election.

That's how the dems lost so many seats in the '02 elections and became a minority party, by being pro-war.

[dajoki]

16. and spineless n/t

[Critters2]

78. And DLC

:puke:

[Demoiselle]

17. Why can't they just keep their mouths shut!??? Dean is only saying what ..

is reflected in every poll these days. A sizeable majority of ordinary Americans don't think we're gonna win it either.
Arrrrgggh. Cowards.
Yo, Rahm. HOWARD DEAN SPEAKS FOR ME.
Sorry for the shouting, somebody must have turned my mike up.

[Heewack]

19. That's not actually correct.

According to Time 55% still feel Iraq is winnable. They don't like how it is being handled for sure, but most are not willing to give up yet. Dean's comments were highly counterproductive for the party.

[AntiCoup2K4]

22. What an unbelievably cheesy thing to say

Extra-cheesy even.....

[Demoiselle]

23. There are polls out there that don't agree with the Time poll.

It all depends on how you ask the question.

[Heewack]

24. Show me one poll

That says the majority of Americans are ready to give up in Iraq. There isn't one.

[AntiCoup2K4]

26. You must get all your info from FAUX "news"

[dajoki]

27. here...

http://www.pollingreport.com/iraq.htm

"Which comes closer to your view about the war in Iraq? You think the U.S. will definitely win the war in Iraq. You think the U.S. will probably win the war in Iraq. You think the U.S. can win the war in Iraq, but you don't think it will win. OR, You do not think the U.S. can win the war in Iraq."

Definitely Win - Win Probably Win - Can Win,But Won't - Cannot Win - Unsure
23 - 23 - 17 - 33 - 4

as you can see CANNOT WIN gets the highest total

[leesa]

57. There are many. You are living in some sort of Faux news dream world.

[BigYawn]

82. If the Iraqi's turn out in huge numbers next week, Dean is screwed....

DLC will trot it out as proof Dean was wrong on saying
we can not win. A democratically elected Iraqi parliament
is a huge event in middle-east which has never had a
elected governing body in any muslim country in the history
of world. Note that Turkey is both muslim and democratic but
it is not in the middle-east.

Therefore I have to agree with Rahm Emmanuel that Dems can not
be perceived as defeatists. We can not afford to be seen as
abandoning Iraq just when it elects itself a government which
needs US military help until it can stand on its own feet.

[madfloridian]

37. Well, if you measure productivity in truth and lies...

he told the truth. People do NOT want to give up hope in their God Bush. They can not face the truth.

[windbreeze]

41. Iraq is "winnable"....

I just wish someone could explain to me, WHAT THE HELL is it, that's winnable???...and WHY it was worth the lives and money it's cost so far??? We need to understand something here....BUSH never intended to WIN a blasted thing with IRAQ...This whole thing was an ego trip...DAD didn't do it when he got the chance, so lamebrained "I'm more of a man than you, dad", son, would prove to him, that by GOD, SADDAM could be removed..OK, so it's been done...NOW WHAT?? It's obvious we have no clue what to do next, and exactly what did it prove along the way? That we are NO better than Saddam, that's what...so how about we leave, and give it back to him...after all we proved he could be removed..
windbreeze

[dajoki]

42. i saw william cohen...

interviewed about a week ago, and he said the clinton admin. did have a plan to go in, but it was not necessary because saddam was contained and could do no harm. he also said if they would have went in they were going to use 450,000 troops to get it done properly.

[BigYawn]

83. If Iraqi's turn out to vote in big numbers next week to

elect the first ever elected government in the middle east,
I will bet anything Bush will trot it out as step #2 in
victory in Iraq. (Step #1 was fall of Saddam's army, "mission accomplished")

But unless this elected Iraqi government can stand on its own 2 feet,
(Final phase of win, step #3) there will be no victory in Iraq.

I think the DLC is buffering us against just such a result by criticizing
Dean.

[dajoki]

84. i think you are right on n/t

[MrBenchley]

46. You got that right....

Your toilet breaks, and you can't fix it. You're standing in the gushing water, you call neighborhood plumber Howard Dean, and he announces "The toilet can't be fixed."

Is that an answer? Are you likely to hire him?

[leesa]

55. Yes. Of course you DO know that Time is a right wing Rag, don't you?

How do you launch an illegal war, blow up innocent people's homes and families and expect to WIN the war? Do you have functioning brain cells?

[dajoki]

20. don't apologize...

WE NEED TO GET LOUDER!!

[IndianaGreen]

30. They joined Bush!

There is nothing more that we need to know. Anyone that allies himself/herself with Bush is an enemy of the people and a war crimes enabler.

[TankLV]

70. You got that right!

All those so-called democratic DU'rs calling for party "unity" remain conveniently SILENT when these TRAITORS - so-called democrats - CRITICIZE OTHER DEMOCRATS!

It is all so much crap.

[Andromeda]

31. Ain't politics fun???

Makes me want to run for office, NOT!

As long as the Democrats keep fighting each other we're going to go by way of Yellow Brick Road. At the end of the line the only thing there will be a fake Wizard who is trying to con everybody into believing something that isn't real.

Let Nancy Pelosi and Howard Dean just be themselves. Dean is Chair of the DNC because of his personality, outspokenness and honesty. He is loved more than he is hated because he is the genuine article. Pelosi is from my state so nobody had better say anything bad about her (kidding).

When somebody speaks the truth I don't believe bad can come from it. Only good can come from being honest.

I don't believe this is going to hurt the Democratic party in the least so I wish everybody wouldn't get their knickers in a knot.

[madfloridian]

33. Here's what you do.

When Jack Murtha spoke up, Dean said the DNC got over $400,000 in unsolicited money. It got about the same when Harry Reid closed the Senate. Unsolicited.

Call it what you will, it works. This time there are not nearly as many Democrats saying he does not speak for them. Not nearly as many. Most of them doing it are DLC supported. I talked to one office today...and the aides seemed totally unaware of what Dean had actually said.

I doubt Harold Ford when he said he would keep his distance from Dean (for the 2nd time...TN what gives with him...is it that red there)..I doubt he even knew what he said.

Go here:

http://www.democrats.org/blog.html

Either post a thank you in the blog or push the contribute button on the left. Money in small amounts from many people begins to talk a little louder over time.

[xkenx]

43. People should listen to Wes Clark,

probably the most recent Democrat, who absolutely refuses to bash other Dems. People have a certain positive regard for Repubs. because they hardly ever snipe at other Repubs. Howard Dean has for a long time been willing to give Dems. a backbone and stand up to the Rethug lie and slime machine. It's long about time for Dems. to respect other Dems. and stop playing "wet-finger-in-the-wind-poll-taking" politics and stand up for what's right. If the wimps in the party and the MSM are crying over the truth, well boo fuckin' hoo!!

[dajoki]

51. here, here!!

:toast:

[mmonk]

45. How do they know it would backfire?

Sucking up to the false premises and lies hasn't worked.

[dajoki]

50. no it hasn't n/t

[NuttyFluffers]

52. why is unity always expected to be given from the progressives...

and yet never from the centrists? seems very one-sided, doesn't it?

progressives are supposed to capitulate, but centrists are allowed to backbite, be mule-headed, etc. it's just a pattern i'm noticing and finding it real sad.

there is a real reason why united we stand, divided we fall works. and so far i only see one side being asked to give. we gave the war, we gave the tax cuts, we gave business all the union busting power they could want, release of pension liability, universal medical care, gave in about civil liberties, torture, etc. the list is near endless. so where's the centrists giving? 5 years giving into centrist and conservative policy got us into this shithole, one would think it'd be about time for them to sit down, shut up, and take a note from people who actually were right from the beginning.

... i'm getting the feeling centrist is just another word for spineless opportunist. there's no middle, and never was, just people profiteering from which way the wind blows. screw this... at least other liberal minded industrialized nations got their shit together. america can and will go to hell if it still has to sell all it's values and goodness just for the sake of compromise to greedy s.o.b.s and their lapdogs. it's bullshit like this why the youth are so negative about our future.

dammit, it's time for everyone else to capitulate to the left this time. they foresaw all this shit and had ideas to prevent or fix it. everyone else was just worthless enablers or criminally responsible.

[the observationist]

58. Re: progressive plight

Capitulate to the left for what? Brining the troops home? Pulling out of Iraq? What exactly do you want me to unify around?

What the hell is your definition of "progressive"? Howard Dean isn't sincere about sticking up for us, the common citizen. The gov't has screwed us every which way to Sunday. Dean is part of the problem. Look at all the pork barrel spending. The Dems were just as bad about it as the Repugs are now. Everyone wants to bitch about Iraq, but what about all the people that died from drunk drivers this year? What if we took the $200+ billion that we spent on Iraq and put it toward drunk driving prevention? All the politicians are focused on Iraq when there are a myriad of more important problems facing our society.

For you to claim that moderates are the cause of the problem I call your bull shit. I'm a moderate and I'm pissed about Iraq, I'm pissed about every damn politician looking out for their career rather than the people.

[NuttyFluffers]

65. my flaming liberal representatives represented me quite well.

except feinstein, but that's another story.

lee and boxer has been very progressive and fought the good fight and tried to bring out the truth to these evils. what did the opportunists do? hmm? definitely nothing close to what these representatives did for me. i don't expect perfection, but i expect consistency and standing by principle -- and when proved wrong the courage to say so.

my people who represent me fought for me, and had the foresight to fight for us as a people. and on the many issues fo the past 5 years they've been correct. so i call your bullshit. perhaps you aren't holding your representatives to a higher standard, and you should. for the most part, my house is clean; time for others to clean theirs.

[the observationist]

76. So your definition of a progressive is Lee and Boxer?

So their principles are supreme and consistent? I'll check into it. I've yet to meet anyone in politics who is consistent year after year. If people are consistently learning they are consistently changing. Good job in single handedly electing them to office. It seems I have a few things to learn from you. How does that work? I'm a minority (Democrat) in a red state and need directions on how to single handedly elect a "flaming liberal representative" to office.

[jonnyblitz]

62. yep, progressives are accused of being the "purists"

by them and their apologists here at DU. pathetic.

[Nutmegger]

53. Ugh, I'm so sick

of our party members morphing into Repukes. Those who come out for withdrawal need to be applauded...not attacked by their fellow Dems!

[depakid]

60. The Post just eats it up when Dems legimize Republicans

and whenever the the Dems do something stupid like this- you can bet that the Post- is going to shout it out loud and clear.

If the RNC Post can help the Dems grasp defeat from the jaws of victory, you can bet they'll do it.

Sad that so many Dems just want to make their job easier.

[enough already]

64. What the f%$# is wrong with this party?

Dean is RIGHT. Bush already lost this war and everyone knows it. The public HATES Bush and HATES this war. Why the f%$# are these spineless pricks attacking Dean? I hate this party at times.

[Bridget Burke]

66. One Texas Democrat explains why he is NOT afraid....

Rep. Chet Edwards (D-Tex.), who represents a district Bush won easily in 2004, said he disagrees with Pelosi and Dean but does not see that as a problem. "The national press is playing up the fact that Democrats do not speak with one voice on Iraq," he said. "We should wear it as a badge of honor because it shows we are not playing a political line with war and peace."

Rep Edwards does NOT agree with Pelosi & Dean. But he does NOT think they are hurting the Democratic party.

Of course, this is the last paragraph in the article. How many people just read the headlines & the first 3 paragraphs?

[ProudDad]

74. Ok by me

I don't mind if a few "moderate" (whatever the f*ck that means) Dems win seats in the House and Senate from "red" districts.

That'll just hasten the day when John Conyers gavels the start of the hearings on the Articles of Impeachment of george w bush and richard cheney. Ah, what a GREAT GETTIN UP MORNING that will be...like Morning in Amerika...

I love the smell of burning republicans in the morning!!!

[AuntPatsy]

80. I like that, a true democracy is what this gentlemen obviously wishes for.

Why cannot they all stay with a similar message instead of such useless garbage ad openly denouncing certain Dems for personal stances....

And what is wrong with sending out such a message to the citizens of this country, the vast majority varying very differently on certain beliefs and or issues that they many deem important to themselves?

[mmonk]

68. My backlash will be on those

that join the deceiver.

[dajoki]

69. somehow our...

party must come together and stop eating our own, or we will never win another election.

[Critters2]

79. Tell it to the DLC

and DINOs...like Joe-Mentum

[rman]

75. "popular perceptions" are being manipulated

by those who stand to gain from such manipulation and who have plenty of money to spend on PR.

If you look at recent polls, "popular perception" is that the Bush lied about the war. And before you know it the MSM is back to 'don't criticize the president at a time of war'. Makes me wonder who the MSM speaks for.

[AX10]

81. Wrong. The DLC is on the wrong side.

[Hyernel]

85. Reid and Pelosi need to crack the whip!

Never side with Bush on ANYTHING!!!