So, was * trying to use Echelon against US citizens?

[TheGunslinger]

And what is this right-wing blowback that Clinton used it during his administration? I didn't think Echelon was fired up against US citizens under Clinton?

[salvorhardin]

1. Technically they're correct

Echelon was used against U.S. citizens under Clinton, but they had to put the listening posts in other countries (for instance, the UK).

Give me a minute and I'll give you some links, although you can start with Wikipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON

On edit: The primary Echelon resource page is here: http://fly.hiwaay.net/~pspoole/echelon.html

Second edit: BBC - What you need to know about Echelon
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/1357513.stm

[TheGunslinger]

2. Hmm...interesting. NSA staff spies were expected in the UK in 2002

from a June 2001 article
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2001/06/11/us_expands_echelon_spying/

[Warpy]

3. That's been done for a very long time

The point with this is that Stupid's team bypassed ECHELON and the rubberstamp court, which means that their targets would have outraged anyone else in this government or foreign governments.

That means he wasn't just spying on me and thee. This means he was in all likelihood spying on Congress, on judges, on all media personalities (including the tame ones) and on Hollywood figures.

That is what makes this so huge. He could have done all LEGITIMATE eavesdropping with ECHELON and a rubber stamp court. He felt compelled to go outside them. That means he wasn't just listening in on folks who were spotted at an antiwar rally. He was listening in to the rich and powerful, people who would ordinarily feel themselves protected by money and power.

[karynnj]

10. And if Congress people, I assume that even before he running for President

Kerry would have been very high on the list because he is still (in 2005) involved to some degree on BCCI. His questioning in the SFRC on Pakistan, Iraq, Korea etc were well beyond that of most other committee members (if not all of them).

Throw in that after 2002 it was very likely that he intended to run, he would be a likely target. The real question would be if he used information picked up to optimize timing.

[sandnsea]

4. Eschelon was international

Or from the US to a foreign country, as I understand it. Bush is monitoring complete domestic calls, internal spying on US citizens without any warrants or oversight at all.

[salvorhardin]

5. Echelon was international

But there was credible evidence that it was used to spy on American citizens by sharing data with the UK listening posts. This was an end run around the law. Bush however completely disregarded any laws. Whether Echelon was involved or not is unknown.

http://www.aclu.org/privacy/spying/15419prs20010508.html?ht=echelon%20echelon

[Warpy]

6. The point is that ECHELON wasn't good enough

so he did direct eavesdropping through the NSA. That is blatantly illegal, no matter which EO he issued to try to cover his bony ass.

Get it? There was nothing legitimate about any of his targets, since he could easily have accomplished all legal eavesdropping through Echelon and FISA, a court which has issued warrants for eavesdropping as much as three weeks after the fact.

Get real, folks, this is direct spying and the targets would likely have outraged people in both parties. That's why he used the NSA, not the courts and not Echelon.

[salvorhardin]

8. Warpy, I'm not saying it was legitmate

And the Echelon network may have been used since it is run by the NSA. Remember Total Information Awareness? That was to be based on Echelon technology. It seems to me that when TIA was torpedoed the Bush administration went ahead and implemented it anyway.

[sandnsea]

11. Credible evidence?

I see concerns in that piece, not any evidence at all. It also wasn't secret, I remember the debates about this program.

http://www.endtimeprophecy.org/Content/Articles/Articles-Echl/echln-12.html
http://lists.jammed.com/ISN/1998/11/0060.html

[Old and In the Way]

7. Read this post up at Digby's...........me thinks it had more

local and partisan uses then we realize......

http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2005_12_18_digbysblog_archive.html#113503496104807390

Several senior government officials say that when the special operation first began, there were few controls on it and little formal oversight outside the N.S.A. The agency can choose its eavesdropping targets and does not have to seek approval from Justice Department or other Bush administration officials. Some agency officials wanted nothing to do with the program, apparently fearful of participating in an illegal operation, a former senior Bush administration official said. Before the 2004 election, the official said, some N.S.A. personnel worried that the program might come under scrutiny by Congressional or criminal investigators if Senator John Kerry, the Democratic nominee, was elected president.

I wonder what they might have been monitoring in 2004?

More and more, Bush is reminding me of Richard Nixon.....with updated plumber technology.

[sduncang]

9. Right Wing Spin

That's one of the Republican "talking points" - all right AM radio right wing talk show hosts must've got the memo, because that's the line their using.

[radio4progressives]

14. Because both Parties and Both Administrations are responsible

This is just one of many egregious policies which both parties implemented - to me one of the most egregious policies, second to the illegal invasion of Iraq, is the outrageous implementation of programs which are a direct assault on our civil liberties and the erosion of our Constitution protections.

both parties involved in this going back decades.

It should be not merely be viewed as something all americans should be seriously concerned about, like Feingold puts it, but should be soundly denounced and rejected by all Americans.

[ncteechur]

12. It does not matter. Bush is the president now --he is responsible and

GUILT!

[radio4progressives]

13. Indeed Echelon and Carnivore both were HUGE issues amongst ..

progressives and the media activists community that i was involved with.

These were seen as clear and egregious violations against civil liberties and I recall a great deal of focus and discussion, a lot of calls to action - to lobby our Senators and Congress members against the implementation of these programs. This all began under the Clinton administration.