Freeper claims "Clinton spied too." Help debunk it.

[skipos]

I am talking to freeper family member who is excusing Bush because "Clinton did it too." So far, the only thing I have found debunking it is below. Does anyone have any other links I can use? MSM would be ideal.

http://thinkprogress.org/2005/12/20/the-echelon-myth/

The Clinton administration program, code-named Echelon, complied with FISA. Before any conversations of U.S. persons were targeted, a FISA warrant was obtained. CIA director George Tenet testified to this before Congress on 4/12/00:

I’m here today to discuss specific issues about and allegations regarding Signals Intelligence activities and the so-called Echelon Program of the National Security Agency…

There is a rigorous regime of checks and balances which we, the Central Intelligence Agency, the National Security Agency and the FBI scrupulously adhere to whenever conversations of U.S. persons are involved, whether directly or indirectly. We do not collect against U.S. persons unless they are agents of a foreign power as that term is defined in the law. We do not target their conversations for collection in the United States unless a FISA warrant has been obtained from the FISA court by the Justice Department.

[Sanity Claws]

1. So Clinton is the measure of all things

I just don't understand why Freepers keep referring to Clinton, if they hate him so much.

[JuniperLea]

8. Perhaps that should be the comeback...

Something to the effect of... hey, you hate Clinton and think everything he ever did was wrong! So why is it ok for The Shrubbery to do some evil deed just because you think Clinton did it too? Doesn't that line of thinking lead one to believe that Bush is "as bad as Clinton"?

[Mr Rabble]

2. Big difference.

Echelon was a collaboration between the US and some of our "allies". In the case that we wanted to spy on american citizens we would simply outsource the spying to an ally.

Basically.

Not our finest moment. However, there was legal justification for it.

In this case, * is using our own intelligence community to spy on us.

Big difference.

[sam sarrha]

3. Stop playing with the freepers and go wash your hands right NOW.

[cornermouse]

4. These are probably the same people who think Clinton

ran out and murdered Vince Foster. Trying to debunk it with someone like that is a total waste of time.

[Canuckistanian]

5. Insist they prove it

The burden of proof is on them, they made the assertion.

Tell them you want facts only. Articles, quotes or links to other records from reputable sources.

Newsmax and WorldNutDaily don't count. For that matter, CHB doesn't either.

[Warren Stupidity]

6. a) false; b) so what?

Lets assume that Clinton also broke the law (which he didn't, but lets pretend that he did.) So Bush's defense is that somebody else broke the law too? Ok. Lets all go rob banks, by that theory it is perfectly legal.

[politicaholic]

7. That's not an argument. They don't have evidence...

and the fact that YOU'RE gathering it for their lazy asses gives them an opportunity to refute your evidence and feel vindicated and right when in reality they still didn't prove themselves right. That's what happened to Dan Rather, they disproved his evidence, but that still doesn't fill in the year that Bush blew off.

Here's what you say..."Prove it."

Here's another, "Bush got caught. He broke the law. Sure, you can forgive him for drinking and driving, but he should still suffer the consequences, right? I mean, what the hell are we defending if not democracy and the constitution?"

[radio4progressives]

17. They're "proving" it in the media...

Senator Cornyn has the amunition with Jane Guerleck (sp?) statements and she's also connected to Able Danger.

We can't place our faith in this issue as being the one that's going to impeach Bush..

We'll need to go back to John Conyers' Constitutional Crises report and hope something can come out of that to move on impeachment, after we win back the House and the Senate in 2006.

Unless something else is revealed that the media has been holding back on turns up.

[cease_fire]

9. Self Delet

[rox63]

10. Clinton's spying went through FISA

I heard Ed Schultz talking about it on the radio earlier today.

[quiet.american]

11. If Clinton did something illegal, the Repubs would have been all over it

Ask your relative this:

If what Clinton did was illegal in the same way as what Bush has done, why weren't the Republicans all over it? They spent $40 million on Whitewater and came up empty. They had to reach to impeach on the blue dress. If what Clinton did was the same thing, it would have been a gift on a silver platter. Why didn't they go after him on it? And don't let them get away with saying it was a matter of national security. The Repubs did the best they could to block Clinton on every matter of national security. That they ever managed to hoodwink the public into thinking they know what they're doing when it comes to national security remains one of the greatest triumphs of style over substance in world history.

[xchrom]

12. so what? we're not talking about clinton, we're talking

about bush.

i have a ''let the chips fall where they may'' attitude -- so if clinton did that{he got clearance in fact} and it was illegal than he should be punished. period.

but we're talking about bush now -- and THAT is the topic at hand -- and one wrong doing never sets precedence for another wrong doing.

[distantearlywarning]

13. Instead of looking up all those facts

which they probably don't want to hear anyway, how about this instead:

"So, if Clinton sacrificed puppies to Satan on the lawn of the White House, would it be ok for Bush to do it too?"

[OffWithTheirHeads]

14. Who gives a shit what Clinton did?

Clinton has not been office for years! What he did is history, what Pissy Pants does is current events. If you are currently breaking the law, you should be held to the rule of law. Jefferson owned slaves. So, it's O.K. to own slaves? Sorry, that dog don't hunt.

[radio4progressives]

15. can't really debunk it... because Clinton did it too...

and that's why this issue matters so much.

and that's why it is so important that we never have another Clinton in the White House again, and that we try our very hardest, on a grassroots level to avoid the temptation in giving over favor to another DLC Democrat, and touting it as being the best we can hope for, in 2008.

because it just isn't true.

There ARE other genuine, progressive Democrats we can and must seek out.

Because we MUST do better for the sake of our Constitution, and the welfare of our democracy.

[mandyky]

16. Clinton did not tell the American ppl to like or lump it!

I got mad at hubby the other day - we were talking about 2 people and I was really throwing down about one, and he said well the other one did blah blah. I said - man, you sound just like a GOPer - stick up for one while bringing up someone else. That is kindergarten shit - "they hit me first"! Good fucking grief!

[kerry-is-my-prez]

18. Clinton didn't spy on groups like Quakers, PETA, Greenpeace, libraries

environmental groups and question students who check out books by Mao Tse-Tung.

[radio4progressives]

20. probably not (you're probably right) but how do we know for sure?

:shrug:

[radio4progressives]

19. This was an issue that I joined the fight on against getting implemented

I was involved in the Save Pacifica Radio network movement back in 1999 (- 2002) which was a lengthy and intense multi-front battle. Carnivore and Echelon came up and that was yet one more issue to fight hard against.

Obviously we lost that one.

Going up against the Clinton administration was not what I had in mind when i got involved in the save pacifica movement, but it turned out the people we ended up battling against were Clinton appointees, to the shock and dismay of many, including myself.

We won this battle and worth the struggle, the issues we faced shouldn't have existed with "Liberal" appointments.

it just shows to goya, neo liberalism is not what a lot of dems think it is.