IMO, NSA story will come down to lowering 'probable cause'

[darkstar]

threshold, "the need for a new (lowered) standard in the extremely dangerous post 9/11 world."

Spying on political enemies, maybe. Maybe.

But, IMO, the incremental lowering of PC--even if there is an enemies list--will be more damaging to the nation in the long run.

The only reason to not go to FISA is inability to meet current PC threshold. Enemies list or not.

The arguments about this--again, sans enemy list--will be so complex re: ECHELON style broad catch, key word monitoring, PC vs "reasonable suspicion" that many (most?) will not understand. Of those who *think* they do, many (most?) will shrug and say "Well, I don't use those words on the phone; it appears they don't really listen to your actual calls if you don't speak in Arabic and/or use those words; hence, they are really only eavesdropping on potential bad guys in a dangerous world."

This is in classic, well planned, incremental erosion of liberty at work.

And unfortunately, this step, if unchecked, is a particularly HUGE increment. Further erosion of the PC threshold, in particular, will be child's play if this is allowed to stand.

[formercia]

1. That's how they did it in Nazi Germany

One increment and one law at a time and before long, only good Germans could sleep soundly at night, but then the bombers came and it was a long time before even good Germans got a good nights sleep.

[shraby]

2. I think you're wrong on this..Bush has admitted

to surviellance without warrants. At the very least it is against the 4th amendment.

[darkstar]

3. Oh I agree with you, shaby

in that it is clearly a 4th Amendment violation.

What I'm arguing is that 1)I'm not so sure about rushing headlong into enemies lists as the real evil here and 2) I cannot think of a reason they wouldn't get even a *retroactive* FISA other than knowing it would not pass PC test.

IMO, the inadeqacy, complexity and legal interp of the PC test in an era of both terrorism *and* digital communication technology will emerge as their defenses.

Key in this, IMO, will be the legal status of a domestic reciever of an int'l call. I've been searching for a news story that covers this, but to know avail. Do you know the wrinkles on this? I'll admit I don't, but I think another aspect of this story turn upon this issue.

If they actually tapped US thousands of citizens' calls going out w/out FISA--and it can somehow be proven--they are hosed and stupid and will go down quickly. But given it is a "secret" program, I'm guessing the spin will be "gray area in the PC test; need to act fast when supected terrorist lights up a pathway into a previously unknown number in states; PC should allow us to hear this US citizen's phone call if coming from a suspected bad guy."

Again, just my opinion.

[shraby]

4. I have a genealogy site I maintain. I also had a place

that would give me stats as to how many hits, where they came from, etc. I noticed there were some that came from the DoD. I thought when I got them, maybe it was a military person working on their family tree while at work. Now I know what it was. Why the DoD would be checking a genealogy site besides for surveillance is beyond me. I cancelled my subscription to the service before this news broke. Now I wish I had my stats from there back to look over once again. Darn! I have a stats results page from my new server, maybe they will show up again.