We see the USA crumbling. Why should anyone bother studying anything now?

[Deja Q]

There are no incentives.

Official schooling is way too expensive. Especially when any jobs available would take a ridiculous amount of time TO pay back; especially with increasing cost of base necessities...

It doesn't matter what you know; it's whether or not you can pass a multiple choice test based on the thoughts of the test writers; and the real world is nowhere near as cut'n'dry.

The good jobs keep being hemorrhaged offshore. Assuming our programming friends at microsoft keep working on ways to centralize systems and make the need FOR support unnecessary... (and ever try looking at a person who can't fathom a desktop from a doorhandle fix a problem or even read instructions written by a tech-minded person with no concept of how the non-technical read things? It's almost funny. Almost...)

The hype that only menial, mundane jobs going overseas can be rebuked in a nanosecond.

We know that all our fates are sealed the moment the economy breaks. China will be okay. So will India. We won't. And that's the point. WE are no longer economically viable. We are free to think. And we are independent. Qualities the same people used to cherish are now being spat upon in favor of quotas and harsh regulations.

Besides, when your television set develops a fault, do you repair it? Or chuck it to the bin and buy a new one? Now consider America being that TV set...

So party on. There IS no future, like it or lump it.

[adriennui]

1. unfortunately,

you are correct. there is no future for young people in the US unless they aspire to be healthcare workers or a cashier at walmart.

anyone could have predicted this, but the inept government kept on shoving trade agreements down our throats and lying to us every step of the way.

[Deja Q]

5. You mean 'transcriptionists'... $24k paying jobs. Guess how much it costs

to study for that? $13k, more or less. Then add in cost of transportation, car insurance, gas, et al...

$24k doesn't fly when you have to spend THAT MUCH for a dead-end job.

BTW: It's not about prediction. They know full well what they are doing. Everything they say. Everything they do. They will not want a nuke war to destroy the world. They also want to reduce energy usage and environmental chaos. The US is by far the worst contributor.

China and India have much larger populations... comparatively sane means of traffic. Stern control by its government. What more could they ask for?

So, how do they nimbly get rid of us? Far easier than one would expect. Even repugs at work were talking about how a nuke can be used in ways that would render EVERYTHING electronic/electrical useless without harming the planet. I don't see why they should be so scared; they kept voting for the people that have been adjusting society all these decades...

[Greyhound]

11. I'd also point out that there is no future for the middle aged either.

Spent many years to learn, become excellent, and make a decent salary, and then on a whim they take the entire profession and shit-can it. What do we do now? Go back to school to 'retrain' for another profession, spending thousands of dollars we no longer have and years to get good when retirement is looming? Who's going to hire these retrained geezers? Nobody, that's who.
Indentured servitude, based on corporate alliance, is the future.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

2. The Chinese and Indians are better at capitalism than the USA.

The delicious irony is that the capitalists in American promoted and insisted on capitalism in both countries.

[Deja Q]

6. How? Their country isn't as developed; ergo wages/prices ARE lower.

Drink the beer, crush the can, grab the next can, continue to drink.

And, eventually, their hangover is going to be nasty. They'll run out of beers to consume.


Edited: Spelling typo

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

18. They're selling to the consumers here and abroad.

Consumers in "developed" countries are buying Chinese, Indian, Indonesian, Vietnamese, etc, goods because their cheaper than those produced at home. As their wages rise they will buy their own products for the same reason. In essence they're are on the upward part of the curve.

The "developed" countries capitalists are selling the the "under developed" countries the rope with which they are hanging us. (To paraphrase Lenin). We've exploited them for centuries and now the wheel is turning..rapidly.

[Deja Q]

19. So much for Reagan ending communism for all time...

:crazy:

[Greyhound]

12. They are not capitalist at all. They are simply leveraging our own corrupt

system to enhance the benefits of socialism. In India and China their education costs are born by society, not the individual.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

20. I didn't say they were "capitalists", they're just better at it.

Indeed they are "leveraging" our own system - with the aid of our own capitalists. Why shouldn't they?

[Greyhound]

21. No reason they shouldn't, but the idiots in charge

(corporate officers and their frat-boy) have failed to even consider what these 'allies' will do to them once they no longer need them.
I just hope I can still afford some means of watching the inevitable ass-rape they're in for.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

27. They'll move to Switzerland to keep an eye one their numbered accounts.

I can't help but wonder how much the CEO's in China, India, etc, make in comparison with the ones wrecking our economy while meeting "the bottom line".

[Greyhound]

33. No executives anywhere make anything close to amerikan officers. n/t

[Deja Q]

30. Or all our leaders right down to Tricky Dicky. But you're right...

Carter and particularly Clinton NOT EXCEPTED.

The problem did not begin with *.

But I think * is going to end it. But will he be pro-America or pro-Corporate? So far it's America nil, Corporate 1.

And you're right. The game works both ways. The Chinese might do away with the US government beforehand; they know full well they won't be able to trust our leaders, both government and corporate. It goes back to INDEPENDENCE AND FREEDOM. The irony, either way, is astounding.

And if George Sr had to go to China to precede Jr, you know something bizarre is afoot.

[Greyhound]

34. They seem to have completely forgotten that these people

HATE us! Almost as much as they fear us.
The irony is delicious, I just wish it wasn't us that will have to eat it. :shrug:

[SPKrazy]

3. I Can Imagine That It Is Really Bleak For You Right Now

I remember in college when the American Hostages in Iran were taken and we were all sure that we would be in Iran anytime and that we might as well party like there was no tomorrow.

And at that time, the microcomputer was just hitting the market, and everyone imagined that technology would take over human jobs. Of course no one looked at what really would happen in that as technology took over, people wouldn't go to 4 day work weeks and have more leisure time, but that people would be laid off as corporations downsized and the idea of outsourcing was just barely taking off.

I worry about the future too, but I would encourage you not to give up, but instead look at what niche is least likely to disappear in the IT field (I take it that is your field of expertise and interest)

Not everything can be outsourced, but you are right that outsourcing is not just happening to menial jobs anymore.

And I read yesterday that China has lost like 20 million jobs since the mid '90's, so even the countries that the outsourcing first went to have been outsourced to countries with even cheaper labor and no restrictions on industry.

If we all survive, the eventual result will be that wages worldwide will equal out. That probably means our wages will drop, and other countries wages will rise to match up. When this happens outsourcing will be less of a problem.

Of course the key words here in my opinion are "if we all survive", which we won't because I have no idea of a time frame on this.

The other factors here include war, global warming, and any number of unseen factors that could be in the future.

But we all just have today, and we have to make the best of that so don't just give up. I wish I had a more positive view of the future, but I don't, but don't give up! Please!

[Deja Q]

8. I am still looking and learning, but I see less of a point each day.

Until death is the best option, I have no plans on quitting.

I only know that death might well be imposed on us within the next few months, if not couple years max.

Of course, I could be hit by a bus tomorrow.

Prediction is only as useful as the distance between where you are and what is to happen. I could predict that if I was at a crosswalk, I'd wait until no cars were about before crossing and my prediction that I'd survive the walk would be correct. You just never know when the drunk driver cruises on through... :D

[R Hickey]

4. I saw a talking head on TV today say that optimism was a virtue

But I believe that pessimism is just as much a virtue, if reality is pessimistic. Because reality is the real virtue, not pretending that things are better or worse than they are.

[Deja Q]

9. Optimism is akin to irrational delusion.

The belief that things always turn out for the best, regardless of the ambient circumstances.

I prefer realism based on the ambient criteria.

Unfortunately, left unregulated, realism can quickly morph into pessimism.

[omega minimo]

7. "What do you want to be when you grow up?" used to be a question

for its own sake

I get your economic points, tho not sure what this means:

"WE are no longer economically viable. We are free to think. And we are independent."

How is that?

[Deja Q]

10. In a word;

GLOBALIZATION

A programming job, for example, is more-or-less $80k/yr in America. Some chap in India can do the same thing for $6240 ($3/hr, 40 hr week, 1 yr salary).

Why else do execs continue posting record profits with the claim the economy is going well? Offshoring and cutting "expenditures", that's why. The economy isn't about spending. It's how much they're "saving".

America is not financially viable when all these "undeveloped" countries can do the same work (though not as good^) for exponentially less.

Ours is a society about quick'n'dirty money. Not quality. Ort it eventually became that way; nobody's perfect.

^ For just one example, China's and India's piracy rates are 90 and 74% respectively as of June 2005 (source: CNet Asia). Folks in these same countries also program for Microsoft, Adobe, and other companies. These big companies have big anti-piracy measures installed. Do you think for one attosecond those programmers will make locked down code and exterminate their own cash cow? Of course not! It's tantamount to suicide, and you bet Microsoft and the other companies won't enforce one fucking law because that would kill off those countries' economies. Too much EXPENSIVE software to pay for. ($3/hr would take 300 HOURS just to pay ONE retail license of Windows XP... that adds up way too quickly...)

Independent and free to think: DUers, for example. Independence, to be free to move around and do what we want and when. Last time I checked, China is a filthy fascist country. You jump at the crack of their whip, do what they say, when they say it, and meet quotas OR ELSE. That is not freedom. But that is what the corporate elite want. Control and quotas. Get things done NOW and keep people in line.

We are used to independence. THEY are not. Every time they tried, they get shot down - literally. That makes us much harder to control; we love our freedoms. THAT is why they keep a bigger eyeball on protestors and brothels than they do on actual terrorists, such as Hamas or Al Quaeda.


Like I said, be happy. Smile. Smell the roses. When the bomb drops, that's it. Poof. Finished. The future cannot be fought. Not when it's already been bought.

[omega minimo]

22. "Brothels"?

"Independent and free to think: DUers, for example. Independence, to be free to move around and do what we want and when. Last time I checked, China is a filthy fascist country. You jump at the crack of their whip, do what they say, when they say it, and meet quotas OR ELSE. That is not freedom. But that is what the corporate elite want. Control and quotas. Get things done NOW and keep people in line.

"We are used to independence. THEY are not. Every time they tried, they get shot down - literally. That makes us much harder to control; we love our freedoms. THAT is why they keep a bigger eyeball on protestors and brothels than they do on actual terrorists, such as Hamas or Al Quaeda."

Except we don't think and we aren't independent. "We love our freedoms" is the illusion that keeps the sheeple sheepish.

[Deja Q]

31. But Americans are still unaware of how strict the totalitarians are...

totally.

[omega minimo]

36. Mellow out or you will pay

CALIFORNIA ÜBER ALLES

I am Governor Jerry Brown
My aura smiles and never frowns :)
Soon I will be president…
Carter power will soon go away
I will be Führer one day
I will command all of you
Your kids will meditate in school

California Uber Alles
Uber Alles California

Zen fascists will control you
100% natural
You will jog for the master race
And always wear the happy face

Close your eyes, can’t happen here
Big Bro’ on white horse is near
The hippies won’t come back you say
Mellow out or you will pay

California Uber Alles
Uber Alles California

Now it is 1984
Knock knock at your front door
It’s the suede denim secret police
They have come for your uncool niece
Come quietly to the camp
You’d look nice as a drawstring lamp

Don’t you worry, it’s only a shower
For your clothes here’s a pretty flower
DIE on organic poison gas
Serpent’s egg’s already hatched
You will croak, you little clown
When you mess with President Brown

California Uber Alles
Uber Alles California

:evilgrin: :evilfrown:

lryic
Jello Biafra

[high density]

26. At the same time they expect us to spend spend spend!

And I can see it every time I drive down to LL Bean in Freeport. That place would be a damn ghost town without credit cards. Consumers are expected to hold up this economy while our wages go down and the cost of everything goes up. This happens as many companies make record profits as a result of screwing us all with offshoring. The companies and the government in this country expect us to spend a lot of money but they don't want to pay us the wages that would facilitate that. I think credit cards have been hiding a lot of nasty things so far, but I wonder long that can be sustained until it all crumbles.

[Deja Q]

32. The malls seemed dead yesterday...

Even I was very specific as to what I had bought, and it wasn't much.

Abut you're right. Money for nothing and the chicks are free. They want it both ways and that is not possible.

[happyslug]

13. Look at the fall of the Roman Empire

Not the decline 300-570 AD, but what happens afterward (i.e. 570-800, from the Lombard Invasion of Italy to the Height of Charlemagne's Empire).

From 570 AD onward you saw a decline in Latin (The language of Science, Theology and Trade in the West). You had more and more non-Latin terms and structure introduced into Latin then about 600 AD you have a reversal as Latin was reformed BACK to classical Latin (and is separated from what is being spoken by the common people, thus what is now Italian, French and Spanish became separate languages for the first time). Why did Latin Return? The vernacular languages were NOT yet capable of international usage (And would NOT be capable of it till the Renaissance) thus Latin had to be used by the educated people.

My point here is it may appear that education no longer had value, but that did not last long. The need for education became more and more clear as time went on even as the rest of society deteriorated. The key was keeping education going during the transition from the fall to it became obvious education was still needed.

Furthermore the better educated you were the more valuable you were, even Charlemagne (Basically uneducated himself) saw the need for educated people around him even as he himself was uneducated (Which required to know Latin at that time). You did see improvement (For example Charlemagne is credited with introducing punctuation into writing, yes prior to 800 you had no periods, commas, indentation or even paragraphs or other ways to indicate how to break up sentences).

My point education was still important as Rome fell, and became more important as things bottomed out and rebound at the time of Charlemagne.

[Deja Q]

17. It's not what you know, it's who you know.

I've heard that line often enough too.

I know bits and pieces about LOTS of things.

I also know scores of people with Masters degrees are SOL, out of work for a very long time too.

It's not a simple glib statement; "Knowing more makes you more valuable", though there IS some truth in that.

[cliss]

14. Unfortunately, Hypno, you're right.

I believe this country is headed for a crash that will make 1929 look like an afternoon with the Cub Scouts.

It would not surprise me if the whole damn house of cards comes crashing donw.

But -- I believe Americans will make a comeback. We'll be older, wiser, and better for it.

After all - we've had it pretty good for the last --- 230 years or so. It's time to pay the piper.

[Deja Q]

16. Well, I certainly wouldn't use "fortunately". OTOH, I could be very wrong:

:rofl:

It is also possible that we do survive, dvds and other fluff are nixed, and we become a society that learns to live without the trinkets. All we need is a little help from our friends... make our own music and plays...

I do take things to excessive extremes, don't I?

[Cyrano]

15. Get a copy of "Fahrenheit 451"

Four hundred and fifty one degrees fahrenheit is the temperature at which books will start to burn. This film is about a totalitarian society in which books, and therefore knowledge, are banned. To preserve knowledge, a community exists where people have escaped from government control. Each person memorizes an entire book and teaches it to a child so it is not lost when they die.

No matter how long what seems to be the coming dark age brought on by the fascists who currently rule us, it is important for knowledge to be preserved. And that can't happen if people stop studying and learning. There will be another age of enlightenment. It may be after all of us are long gone, but it will come.

That is why human beings must keep studying, learning and passing it on.

[omega minimo]

28. Art for Art's Sake

After art and music are disappeared from schools, history is "relative" and eraseable, when "teaching to the test" is called "education"....... what's left of the mindset you bring up?

Kids post Reagan all grew up with a mercenary attitude (in their environment) toward compartmentalized education. Even the OP expresses the sense of "so what" as if learning or growing don't have intrinsic value. (Intrinsic-- what's that?)

"No matter how long what seems to be the coming dark age brought on by the fascists who currently rule us, it is important for knowledge to be preserved."

How many know the history of previous ages where knowledge was (intentionally) obliterated and only preserved by a few: the Moors, the Celtic monks, and others further back...................

"And that can't happen if people stop studying and learning."

What happens when people stop reading?

"There will be another age of enlightenment. It may be after all of us are long gone, but it will come. That is why human beings must keep studying, learning and passing it on."

The New Dark Ages. The only antidote to consumer culture?

I love your allusion-- maybe the fact that the story was about BOOKS will sorta sink in.

:hi:

[high density]

23. Dunno... I have a computer science degree and I'm screwed

Luckily I only went to a state university so I'm not overburdened with debt after graduation (payments are about $200/mo) but it was still a shitload of money to pay, especially considering that I have nothing to show for it at this point besides a nice piece of paper. Two and a half years after graduation I'm making $20k a year in a field unrelated to my schooling and I am grateful that my parents allowed me to come back and live with them, or else I'd be living in poverty.

Everybody's told me that "networking" is part of finding a good job, but the few people I've found to "network" with have not been helpful at all. Newspapers and online job sites are useless, because 99% of job listings require either 5 years of experience or are lousy 6 month contracts that require 5 years of experience. Most of the people being hired now in the USA are senior engineers to oversee the offshore development teams.

[Jim__]

24. It depends on what the meaning of "is" is.

Or, maybe what you mean by "incentive" and "partying".

If you completely buy off on the corporate pitch that the only things worth being concerned about are corporate jobs, corporate salaries, and corporate products; then you may be right. For you, there are no incentives.

People survived for centuries without any corporate input or output. In today's world, is survival easy without corporate "goodies"? No. But survival has rarely been easy. The only people who survived and thrived were those who were willing to struggle.

[bikebloke]

25. Planning in case of the worst

I'm looking at basic agriculture. Primarily permaculture. Getting some of the knowledge in my head and a few reference books. It may come in handy for survival one day. Not that I have access to any land, living in an urban flat. But if we all become latter day "okies", who knows where we'll end up.

And as my grandmother used to say, "You can never learn enough."

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

29. But,, be happy. We can spend almost twice as much on "defense"

as the rest of the world combined. Over 4X as much as China and India combined.

http://www.globalissues.org/Geopolitics/ArmsTrade/Spending.asp

Because we're so "peaceloving".

[tyedyeto]

35. I have a friend whose ex was a Jehovah Witness.

Very smart children who were indoctrinated to believe they should not further their education since Armageddon was right around the corner. This was back in the early 90's when I first heard it.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

37. On top of that, the universe is expanding.

[omega minimo]

39. So if we don't study, our minds will expand anyway?

:evilgrin: :hi:

[A-Schwarzenegger]

40. Hey I didnt think of that! (From Annie Hall ...)

INT. DOCTOR'S OFFICE-DAY

Alvy as young boy sits on a sofa with his mother in an old-fashioned,
cluttered doctor's office. The doctor stands near the sofa, holding a
cigarette and listening.

MOTHER
(To the doctor)
He's been depressed. All of a sudden,
he can't do anything.

DOCTOR
(Nodding)
Why are you depressed, Alvy?

MOTHER
(Nudging Alvy)
Tell Dr. Flicker.
(Young Alvy sits, his head down. His
mother answers for him)
It's something he read.

DOCTOR
(Puffing on his cigarette and
nodding)
Something he read, huh?

ALVY
(His head still down)
The universe is expanding.

DOCTOR
The universe is expanding?

ALVY
(Looking up at the doctor)
Well, the universe is everything, and if
it's expanding, someday it will break apart
and that would be the end of everything!

Disgusted, his mother looks at him.

MOTHER
(shouting)
What is that your business?
(she turns back to the doctor)
He stopped doing his homework.

ALVY
What's the point?

MOTHER
(Excited, gesturing with her hands)
What has the universe got to do with it?
You're here in Brooklyn! Brooklyn is not
expanding!

DOCTOR
(Heartily, looking down at Alvy)
It won't be expanding for billions of years
yet, Alvy. And we've gotta try to enjoy
ourselves while we're here. Uh?

[omega minimo]

44. "BROOKLYN IS NOT EXPANDING!"!!!!!!!!11

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2411364&mesg_id=2411863

At least Alvy READ something.

[Nikia]

38. It doesn't seem that my degree has helped me much economically

I have a BA in biology. Most lab jobs, requiring a 4 year degree, pay under $12/hour in my area. I make a little more than that, but feel that I am held hostage in my job because of that. There are blue collar unskilled jobs in my area paying more than that, but those jobs are insecure right now.
Sometimes, I wish that I studied for a specific career area like chemical engineering or accounting.
I work in the food industry though and there will always be food grown and processed in the United States. It makes economic sense and is a national security isssue. My career path might not really be a bad idea.

[Spinoza]

41. Hundreds of thousands of immigrants,

legal and illegal that come to the U.S. every year must be complete morons, right? Many, many, many immigrants (my own family included) are thrilled to have made it to the U.S. where they have the hope of a better life for themselves and their children then anything they ever knew before. What imbeciles, huh?

[Geek_Girl]

42. I've been thinking about something like this recently

If a large portion of China and India's citizenry attain a strong middle class. It is possible the cash will flow big time into the large corporations and the US middle class is expendable. I have no delusions that corporate America gives a shit about Americans. The Bottom line is all that counts for them.
However, I also see a large number of people leaving the work force in the next 10 years and there will be a strong need for Health care workers of all kinds, government workers, and general service industry workers as well as technical workers. The Baby boomer's won't be dieing off so they'll still be needing goods and service but they will be leaving the work force.
I think Gen Xes in the next few years will have more opportunities.

As an IT worker I see plenty of jobs in my area in my field but not with great salaries. I myself get paid below what most in my profession make. But I have a nice home and am able to support my family.

[MrBenchley]

43. And that's why I didn't do my homework, teacher.....

(snicker)