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KissMyAsscroft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 05:55 PM
Original message
I don't buy Kerry's excuse.


That he never knew Bush would fuck up in Iraq.

I'm 23, got most of my information from the net and from history books and I knew that Bush would fuck it up. I didn't have s single doubt in my mind that the war was a pointless oil-grab.

For Kerry to come out now and say he never knew what would happen is Bush-level lying and insanity.

I will vote against Bush this election, not for Kerry.

How can anyone here buy Kerry's excuse?
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THUNDER HANDS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 05:58 PM
Response to Original message
1. that's not the point
the point is most of American will buy it.
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KissMyAsscroft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #1
4. Huh?


Is that a defense of Kerry's statement? I don't get what you are saying?
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krkaufman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #4
57. He's saying that Kerry's lying
He's saying that Kerry's lying, but that if a plurality of American people dismiss or don't understand the issue then Kerry is absolved of complicity.

Interesting logic. Wish I could be there at the gates when Kerry tries the same BS on St. Pete.
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #1
6. You know he's lying
and are still going to vote for him????? whew. :scared:
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KissMyAsscroft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #6
23. Well, Im not going to vote Green,


Its a lesser of two evils thing...
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hilzoy Donating Member (62 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #23
28. So you have only two choices,
Kerry or voting Green? How did that happen?
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KissMyAsscroft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #28
33. If it came down to Kerry/Bush was my point...
not the primaries, sorry I didn't clarify.
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KissMyAsscroft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #6
27. Clark was for the war, don't be fooled.


Clark didn't have to vote for the IWR so he can claim he wasn't, but everyone knows he would have done just what kerry did.
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #27
41. Read Clark's testimony before congress..
Edited on Sat Jan-31-04 06:16 PM by girl gone mad
and the decide Clark was for the war.

Perle, who testified beside him came to the complete opposite conclusion and derided Clark bitterly over it.

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/clark.perle.testimony.pdf
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bornskeptic Donating Member (951 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-04 05:54 AM
Response to Reply #41
108. I don't think he was for the war,
but apparently his position on IWR was the same as Kerry's--A tough decision, but he would have voted yes.




By Joanna Weiss, Globe Staff, 9/19/2003

FORT LAUDERDALE, Fla. -- Retired Army General Wesley K. Clark said yesterday that he probably would have voted for the congressional resolution that authorized President Bush to wage war in Iraq, taking a position on a key campaign issue closer to that of Senator John F. Kerry than Howard Dean's strong antiwar stance.

"On balance, I probably would have voted for it," Clark said. "The simple truth is this: When the president of the United States comes to you and makes the linkages and lays the power of the office on you, and you're in a crisis, the balance of the judgment probably goes to the president of the United States."



http://www.boston.com/news/politics/president/clark/articles/2003/09/19/clark_says_he_probably_would_have_voted_for_war/
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windansea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #27
53. I guess Clark fooled Richard Perle
" seems to be preoccupied, and I'm quoting now, with building legitimacy, with exhausting all diplomatic remedies... So I think General Clark simply doesn't want to see us use military force and he has thrown out as many reasons as he can develop to that but the bottom line is he just doesn't want to take action. He wants to wait."

Richard Perle, Iraq war-mongerer, before congress Sept. 26, 2002
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krkaufman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #53
62. T H A N K Y O U
Thanks for the facts.
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 08:56 PM
Original message
Tired of that...
Drudge inspired meme.
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #1
7. 70% of America supported the war, so who needs integrity right?
:shrug:
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isbister Donating Member (902 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #7
25. 70% of America supported the war
when?
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bearfartinthewoods Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #25
43. here
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SheilaT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #43
49. But before the war,
if memory serves, the majority of Americans OPPOSED the war.

Thousands upon thousands called their representatives and Senators and the White House begging them not to pass the IWR. And of course we were all ignored. MILLIONS demonstrated in the street.
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krkaufman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 07:07 PM
Response to Reply #49
70. CBS News pre-IWR poll: "War With Iraq: Americans In No Hurry"
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/10/06/opinion/polls/main524496.shtml

Americans generally support military action against Iraqi President Saddam Hussein, and while most think war is inevitable, there is no rush to begin it.

More telling, though, was the hopelessness of the American people that violence could be avoided:
WILL U.S. END UP FIGHTING IN IRAQ?

Now
Yes 70%
No 24%

Eveyone knew Bush was taking us to war. Hellbent.
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isbister Donating Member (902 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #70
72. But bush doesn't run the government
by taking polls :crazy:
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krkaufman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #72
96. Don't get your point. n/t
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isbister Donating Member (902 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #49
71. well...
But before the war, if memory serves, the majority of Americans OPPOSED the war.

Kind of. Before Powell's Feb 2003 presentation to the UN, most Americans were against it. Powell's presentation combined with the non-stop media cheerling turned the polls and after the presentation the polls turned in bush's favor, America supported the invasion.

Zogby International Poll

http://www.pollingreport.com/iraq4.htm

(about a third of the way down the page)
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isbister Donating Member (902 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #43
69. Nope: Zogby International Poll
"Would you support or oppose a war against Iraq if it included sending in hundreds of thousands of U.S. ground troops?"

..........Support...Oppose...NotSure

3/14-15/03....48..45..7
3/5-7/03......53..41..6
2/19-20/03..47..45..8
2/6-8/03......49..44..7
1/24-26/03..42..52..6
9/02..........45..46..9

http://www.pollingreport.com/iraq4.htm (a third of the way down)

In the month before the vote (9/02) the public was not in support of the invasion...look when it turned, after Powell's presentation at the UN... once the polls turned, bush wrapped things up, finalized plans and invaded
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:04 PM
Original message
So, essentially..
a vote for Kerry is a vote to keep America stupid?
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KissMyAsscroft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:09 PM
Response to Original message
31. No, its a vote to get rid of Bush...


Im voting against Bush. Im ABB, but am a fervent Dean supporter and will help him in the primaries as much as I can. I don't buy the BS spin that Dean is unelectable. Now is the time to run a real liberal.
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 05:59 PM
Response to Original message
2. Pretty smart for a 23 year old.
Edited on Sat Jan-31-04 06:01 PM by in_cog_ni_to
:7 I knew the day the SCOTUS appointed him that we would be going to war in Iraq. Pretty obvious to anyone who cared to pay attention. How old is Johnny Kerry? 60? Hmmmmm.

Go Wes!
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HalfManHalfBiscuit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:00 PM
Response to Original message
3. What does Kerry have to do with Iraq?
Did he fail to raed Bush's "mind"?
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KissMyAsscroft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #3
11. Ummm, he's running for president, that's what.

You know, that little vote that he had authorizing war...

Ya, that little thing.:eyes:

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HFishbine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:03 PM
Response to Reply #3
12. He failed
to show good jugdement.
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La_Serpiente Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:00 PM
Response to Original message
5. I think it comes down to a matter of trust
Are you willing to trust him and give him the benefit of the doubt?

You have to decide this yourself.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #5
15. Just listen to Clark
See post #13. Kerry didn't do anything Clark didn't recommend.
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windansea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #15
59. Richard Perle doesn't agree with you
" seems to be preoccupied, and I'm quoting now, with building legitimacy, with exhausting all diplomatic remedies... So I think General Clark simply doesn't want to see us use military force and he has thrown out as many reasons as he can develop to that but the bottom line is he just doesn't want to take action. He wants to wait."

Richard Perle, Iraq war-mongerer, before congress Sept. 26, 2002
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 09:03 PM
Response to Reply #59
83. Quoting a liar
Now that's really sad.
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windansea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #83
88. Perle argued strenuously for immediate intervention
directly against Clark's testimony...because he knew Clark had the most credibility to derail the rush to war...Perle's honesty is irrelevant

trying to equate Clark position with Kerry's equivocating explanation for his yes vote is sadder....
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Eloriel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #5
91. No, I'm not willing to trust him further
He's betrayed our trust again and again and again.

Why would I say, "More, please"?
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corporatewhore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:02 PM
Response to Original message
8. Kucinich knew there were no wmds and that it was just a war for oil
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:02 PM
Response to Original message
9. Agreed..
I got into heated arguments with people around that time because I was certain that Saddam was not a threat and the Bush administration was misrepresenting intelligence to push for a needless war.

There was ample evidence for this position.. the Uranium lie, the fake Brittish intelligence report, Powell's super-weak presentation, Bush's urgency. So much..

Kerry's supporters say he was privy to intelligence we little people haven't seen, but where is that intelligence? If it was so damning to Hussein, I think the Bush administration would have leaked it by now.
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KissMyAsscroft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:04 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. That excuse doesn't hold up.


Several people who had the same intelligence Kerry did voted against IWR.

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krkaufman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #14
66. Hear, hear!
Exactly. The evidence was available that there was no imminent threat from Iraq. IWR authorized use of force against Iraq, at the President's pleasure.

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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #9
19. Talk to Clark
You're smarter than him? See post #13
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isbister Donating Member (902 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #9
35. When...
...was the the Uranium lie?

...was the fake Brittish intelligence report?

...was Powell's super-weak presentation?
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quinnox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:02 PM
Response to Original message
10. A couple things
Edited on Sat Jan-31-04 06:03 PM by quinnox
Even if Kerry had voted against, the war would still have happened. Kerry could not have single handedly stopped the war from happening, unfortunately. I like to make this point because it is rarely mentioned, and it is implied in the argument that if Kerry had voted the other way then he could have prevented Iraq war. That isn't the case.

Second, I was also unhappy with Kerry's choice here, but I look at the candidate in totality, not on one incident. No one is a perfect candidate, despite what some on Du would like to believe. (heh)

But I can understand at the same time the passion behind this issue as well.

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HFishbine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #10
16. No
You are putting words in people's mouths. The argumenent isn't that if Kerry had voted against the war it wouldn't have happened. The argument is that by voting for the IWR Kerry showed poor judgement.
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quinnox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #16
30. I said implied
n/t
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maggrwaggr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #10
22. that's the lamest excuse I've ever heard
The war was inevitable, so he might as well have gone along with it and voted for it?

Good God.

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quinnox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #22
34. That is not my position
It is not an excuse, I said I would have preferred Kerry vote the other way as well.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:03 PM
Response to Original message
13. You're smarter than Clark???
I just love all these people who think they knew this and that.

What about General Clark. Here's what he said about Iraq.

"I'm sure he has a rationale for what he's doing, but we don't always know it. He does retain his chemical and biological capabilities to some extend and he is, as far as we know, actively pursuing nuclear capabilities, though he doesn't have nuclear warheads yet. If he were to acquire nuclear weapons, I think our friends in the region would face greatly increased risks as would we. Saddam might use these weapons as a deterrent while launching attacks against Israel or his other neighbors."

"I'd like to offer the following observations by way of how we could proceed. First of all, I do believe that the United States diplomacy in the United Nations will be strengthened if the Congress can adopt a resolution expressing U.S. determination to act if the United Nations can not act. The use of force must remain a U.S. option under active consideration.

Such congressional resolution need not, at this point, authorize the use of force. The more focused the resolution on Iraq, the more focused it is on the problems of weapons of mass destruction. The greater its utility in the United Nations, the more nearly unanimous the resolution, the greater its utility is, the greater its impact is on the diplomatic efforts under way."

http://www.iraqwatch.org/government/us/hearingspreparedstatements/hasc-092602.htm

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KissMyAsscroft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #13
20. I'm a Dean supporter...


So the Clark reference holds little water with me. I feel the same way about Clark as I do Kerry.

Dean is the only viable candidate who called the war for what it was.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:07 PM
Response to Reply #20
26. Go in unilaterally in 30-60 days???
Saddam has chemical and biological weapons?? He said that in February 2003. Dean is worse than any of them because he apparently believe Saddam was enough of a threat to go in unilatrally in 30-60 days, but not, or maybe... hell I don't know.
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KissMyAsscroft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #26
37. That vote was a stall tactic...Dean was against the war.

I have read Dean's views a billion times. He was against the war and supported a resolution that tied Bush action to more inspections and other conditions.

Kerry's vote meaned an immediate unilateral invasion, so yeah Kerry's vote was worse.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #37
44. Immediate???
rotfl. Where do you get that? Are you one of those people who has no clue when the vote took place or what was happening at the time??
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KissMyAsscroft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #44
52. Hmmm...


It was pretty fucking obvious to the rest of the world that it meant Bush was hellbent o going in ASAP.

I knew it. Every other liberal with a brain knew it. Every conservative pundit on TV knew it.

Trying to parse words on this issue is just hiding the fact that Kerry voted for this war. Nothing changes that.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #52
74. Wasn't obvious to Clark n/t
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #13
32. Re-read what you wrote, and then..
get back to us.

"Such congressional resolution need not, at this point, authorize the use of force."
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #32
45. Need not
Doesn't mean should not. He supported a resolution that said we would use force, it's clear in his statement.
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #45
54. Give me a break..
Edited on Sat Jan-31-04 06:31 PM by girl gone mad
Clark testified in fron of congress that he was against Bush's plan to unilaterally invade. He testified that time was on our side, we should hold off and give inspectcions more time to work. He testified that there was no link between Al-Qaeda, 9-11 and Iraq.

And while Clark was presenting arguments against the actions the Bush administration was pursuing, Kerry was enabling Bush to unilaterally invade.

Now you're arguing semantics, just like your candidate.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #54
77. Who's FOR unilateral invasion??
Nobody. When did Kerry say inspections should be given more time to work? They had the EXACT same view, precisely.
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KissMyAsscroft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #45
55. Maybe Kerry could explain

what the definition of is is.

It's funny the lengths Kerry supporter will go to spin this obvious fact.
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krkaufman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:46 PM
Response to Reply #55
65. Like candidate, like supporter
Clark stood for a strong, but reasoned approach to the issue. The only one possible in the face of an Administration hellbent for war lying to him and the rest of the public.

Continue sanctions, threaten force to reinstitute sanctions, and get back to focusing on Al Qaeda and global terrorism.

Like a previous poster pointed out, just review Richard Perle's same-day opinion of Clark's position. Just try spinning that.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #65
75. Using right wing spin
That's just sad. That's the spin that kept reasoned opinions, like Clark and Kerry's, from coming to light at the time. Clark had a reasoned approach, and a resolution threatening U.S. action was part of it.
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krkaufman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #75
92. http://www.m-w.com
I find Merriam-Webster's website extremely useful for verifying definitions. I recommend looking up 'threatening' and 'authorizing'; methinks there's a not-so-subtle difference.

Of course, we'll never know what could have happened had we gone with a resolution threatening force but requiring further Congressional authorization to go to war; because the war was authorized without any real preconditions. IWR authorized force pretty much at Bush's discretion.

p.s. Don't group Clark and Kerry's positions together; they were obviously different. As different as "Yea!" and "Nay!"
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-04 02:55 AM
Response to Reply #92
103. Show me in the resolution where


"the war was authorized without any real preconditions"

"the IWR authorized force pretty much at Bush's discretion."


These statements are false. The resolution mandated that Bush go back to the U.N. and exhaust all options, which he did not. It required him to act in concert with the international body, which he did not. The resolution did not give him the authority for unilateral, preemptive invasion and occupation. It actually mandated against that.

Remember, Bush was asserting that 1441 gave him the authority to do whatever he wanted. He did not originally intend to go to Congress. He could have used the same authority that decades of presidents have used to commit our forces without congressional approval for 60 days. Once in the field, Congress would be loath to withdraw them.

The resolution was seen by some to reign Bush in. Some, including Sen. Kerry had language inserted in the resolution that mandated restraint. Bush disregarded that and pushed foward to war in defiance of Congress, the American people, and the international community.

Read the resolution:
http://www.yourcongress.com/ViewArticle.asp?article_id=2686



Clark Says He Would Have Voted for War

General Clark said that he would have advised members of Congress to support the authorization of war but that he thought it should have had a provision requiring President Bush to return to Congress before actually invading. Democrats sought that provision without success.

"At the time, I probably would have voted for it, but I think that's too simple a question," General Clark said.

A moment later, he said: "I don't know if I would have or not. I've said it both ways because when you get into this, what happens is you have to put yourself in a position — on balance, I probably would have voted for it."

"I want to clarify — we're moving quickly here," Ms. Jacoby said. "You said you would have voted for the resolution as leverage for a U.N.-based solution."

"Right," General Clark responded. "Exactly."

General Clark said he saw his position on the war as closer to that of members of Congress who supported the resolution — Representative Richard A. Gephardt of Missouri and Senators Joseph I. Lieberman of Connecticut, John Kerry of Massachusetts and John Edwards of North Carolina — than that of Howard Dean, the former Vermont governor who has been the leading antiwar candidate in the race.

Still, asked about Dr. Dean's criticism of the war, General Clark responded: "I think he's right. That in retrospect we should never have gone in there. I didn't want to go in there either. But on the other hand, he wasn't inside the bubble of those who were exposed to the information."
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/19/politics/campaigns/19CLAR.html



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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #55
76. What's the definition of resolution?
Leverge? Force? Those are the words Clark used.
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krkaufman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #76
94. Seriously, it's not hard..
Seriously, it's not difficult to find the definitions of words nowadays. Merriam-Webster has a great website.

http://www.m-w.com

I'll give you this one, this time:
Main Entry: res·o·lu·tion
Pronunciation: "re-z&-'lü-sh&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French or Latin; Middle French resolution, from Latin resolution-, resolutio, from resolvere
...
4 : a formal expression of opinion, will, or intent voted by an official body or assembled group
...
As in, Senator John Forbes Kerry voted for the Iraq War Resolution (IWR) on October 11, 2002, authorizing President Bush to go to war with Iraq; resulting in, to date, 8,000+ Iraqi civilian deaths and 523 US military personnel casualties; and a destabilized country spiraling towards civil war.
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bain_sidhe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #13
56. Followed by...
"The president and his national security team have got to deploy imagination, leverage, and patience in working through the United Nations. In the near term, time is on our side and we should endeavor to use the United Nations if at all possible. This may require a period of time for inspections or the development of a more intrusive inspection regime such as Richard Perle has mentioned, if necessary backed by force. It may involve cracking down on the eroding sanctions regime and countries like Syria who are helping Iraq illegally export oil enabling Saddam Hussein to divert resources to his own purposes.

We have to work this problem in a way to gain worldwide legitimacy and understanding for the concerns that we rightly feel and for our leadership. This is what U.S. leadership in the world must be. We must bring others to share our views not be too quick to rush to try to impose them even if we have the power to do so."

And, as Mr. Perle said later at that same hearing:

SCHROCK: Sure, I would love to know Mr. Perle's, you know, the general said time is on our side. My guess is you do not believe that.

PERLE: No, I don't believe it and frankly I don't think he made a very convincing case in support of that cliche but it was one of many cliches. At the end of the day when you sought to elicit from him a reconciliation of the view that time is on our side with what he acknowledged to be our ignorance of how far along Saddam Hussein is, he had no explanation.

He seems to be preoccupied, and I'm quoting now, with building legitimacy, with exhausting all diplomatic remedies as though we hadn't been through diplomacy for the last decade, and relegating the use of force to a last resort, to building the broadest possible coalition, in short a variety of very amorphous, ephemeral concerns alongside which there's a stark reality and that is that every day that goes by, Saddam Hussein is busy perfecting those weapons of mass destruction that he already has, improving their capabilities, improving the means with which to deliver them and readying himself for a future conflict.

So I don't believe that time is on our side and I don't believe that this fuzzy notion that the most important thing is building legitimacy, as if we lack legitimacy now, after all the U.N. resolutions that he's in blatant violation of, I don't believe that that should be the decisive consideration. So I think General Clark simply doesn't want to see us use military force and he has thrown out as many reasons as he can develop to that but the bottom line is he just doesn't want to take action. He wants to wait.

(emphasis added)
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still_one Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:05 PM
Response to Original message
17. ABB
Anybody BUT BUSH
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:05 PM
Response to Original message
18. I already KNEW the Iraq war was unjust and about OIL.....
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #18
21. You should talk to Clark too
Again, see post #13
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krkaufman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #21
73. Reality intrudes
Again, see the full text of the testimony, and Richard Perle's opposing comments.

Post 41
Post 53
Post 56

You have nil credibility if you keep arguing that Kerry took the same position as Clark. Clark wanted to focus on Al Qaeda, the real threat; Kerry voted to allow Bush to go to war with Iraq.

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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #73
82. Clark wanted a resolution
He said more needed to be done with Iraq. There was a process that should take place and a resolution was part of it.

And again, Perle's spin is of absolutely NO interest to me. I never listened to the liar last year or the year before, I have absolutely no reason to listen to him now.
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krkaufman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #82
95. Clark wanted a resolution.
Edited on Sat Jan-31-04 10:20 PM by krkaufman
Clark wanted a resolution.
Clark wanted a resolution.
Clark wanted a resolution.
Clark wanted a resolution.
Clark wanted a resolution.
Clark wanted a resolution.

No matter how many times I read or type that, I'm having trouble warping it into Clark recommended a resolution authorizing Bush to go to war with Iraq.

Clark could have wanted a resolution authorizing more rolls of toilet paper per soldier, too. Clark recommending a resolution threatening the use of force but requiring further Congressional authorization to go to war is vastly different from authorizing Bush to go to war at his discretion. If you're uncertain of this, you may want to check with the families of the 523 soldiers lost in Kerry's War.


edit: spelling error
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emulatorloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:06 PM
Response to Original message
24. You are 23 and have a net connection, but you did not see
the sh*t spun to gold by the intelligence briefers sent up the hill to sell this thing w their "TOP SECRET" briefings, or the heavy hitter promises made.

Bush Lied, and Kerry's PO'd

“The way Powell, Eagleberger, Scowcroft, and the others were talking at the time,” continued Kerry, “I felt confident that Bush would work with the international community. I took the President at his word. We were told that any course would lead through the United Nations, and that war would be an absolute last resort. Many people I am close with, both Democrats and Republicans, who are also close to Bush told me unequivocally that no decisions had been made about the course of action. Bush hadn’t yet been hijacked by Wolfowitz, Perle, Cheney and that whole crew. Did I think Bush was going to charge unilaterally into war? No. Did I think he would make such an incredible mess of the situation? No. Am I angry about it? You’re God damned right I am. I chose to believe the President of the United States. That was a terrible mistake.”

http://truthout.org/docs_03/121003A.shtml
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HFishbine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #24
29. Kucinich saw through it
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emulatorloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #29
36. Good for him! n/t
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #29
46. Kucinich wanted inspections
Again, you don't need inspections if there's no reason to think there might be something to find. Dennis DID NOT KNOW.
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HFishbine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:35 PM
Response to Reply #46
61. Exactly
Edited on Sat Jan-31-04 06:38 PM by HFishbine
What do two elected officials do when confronted with a lack of compelling information? One says, "I'm not giving Bush a route to war until we know what's there." The other says, "I support giving Bush a route to war."
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #61
80. How would we find out???
Nobody ever answers that. Nobody. What was Dennis going to do to get inspectors back in?
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #24
38. Bush hadn't yet been hijacked by Wolfowitz, Perle, et al yet?
What total BS. They PUT HIM IN. What a liar pants. He is compromised.
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KissMyAsscroft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #24
40. Once again...


Many people who were shown the same intelligence voted against the IWR.

Kerry is just a sucker, or was making the vote for political purposes to show he was strong on defense.

I think it was the latter.
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krkaufman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #24
79. It's called appeasement
Kerry states, "I took the President at his word."

Considering what had transpired between January 2001 and October 2002, this alone should disqualify Senator Kerry from running on the Democratic ticket -- for any office. Who, by that time, trusted anything that Bush was spewing?

Please.
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Cheswick2.0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-04 08:32 AM
Response to Reply #24
114. oh come on!
He said he was angry about being lied to. Then later he says his vote was the right thing to do. Which is it?
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isbister Donating Member (902 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:13 PM
Response to Original message
39. Read
the IWR:

http://usinfo.state.gov/regional/nea/iraq/text/1010res.htm

What Kerry said at the time of the IWR vote:

http://johnkerry.com/pressroom/speeches/spc_2002_1009.html

If you truly want to understand. Don't believe everything you hear, read for yourself.

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KissMyAsscroft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #39
42. It doesn't matter what he said.


Everyone knew what that vote was. It was a green light for the unilateral invasion of Iraq. Many voted against it.

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emulatorloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #42
51. Just because someone told you that
doesn't mean it is true. Read the IWR. It is not a green light for unilateral invasion.

I am glad many voted against it.

However, I understand Kerry's position, which he has held from day one. He is against weapons proliferation, always has been, always will be. He is against unilateral invasion, always has been, always will be. You disarm bad people by working w your allies, working w the UN to pressure the bad people, you get weapons inspectors in. War should be used as a LAST resort, and allies should be on board.

This is Bush's war, not Kerry's. Bush's unilateral invasion, not John Kerry's/
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KissMyAsscroft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #51
58. Once again..


I'm to believe Kerry didn't know Bush was going to use that resolution to wage unilateral war?

You really expect me to believe that?

Everyone on earth knew what that resolution was, and Kerry should have voted against it and for more time.
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krkaufman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #51
81. Bush bought the house
Kerry co-signed on the loan.

They're both responsible for the bankrupt policy.
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isbister Donating Member (902 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:37 PM
Response to Reply #42
63. I got the feeling
that it wouldn't matter what he said. Let's review what you wrote and what I responded to:

I don't buy Kerry's excuse. That he never knew Bush would fuck up in Iraq.

The resolution was not a green light and I completely disagree with your position that it was. I've read it. The resolution set forth specific conditions the President had to meet before Congress' authority to use force was granted. Bush did not meet those conditions, the republican controlled Congress covered, and continue to cover, up for him.

If you read what Kerry said at the time of his vote you would have a much better understanding about his position at the time of the vote and now. Just guessing doesn't make your position on the subject stronger.

... got most of my information from the net and from history books and I knew that Bush would fuck it up. I didn't have s single doubt in my mind that the war was a pointless oil-grab.

My first question is...when, when did you know that, what day?

Reading the resolution may help you to understand what it was and was not. Its just my opinion but I think you should have an idea about what it said if you are going to comment on it.

can anyone here buy Kerry's excuse?

I buy it. Not because he's changed his position but because he's been consistent about it before, during and after the vote. I buy it because the corporate media and other candidates did not tell the truth about the resolution, Kerry's position, and/or their own position.


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krkaufman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #39
90. Ok, so I've read the IWR again; Kerry authorized war
The title seems to sum up the IWR quite nicely:
http://usinfo.state.gov/regional/nea/iraq/text/1010res.htm

This joint resolution may be cited as the 'Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002'.
The IWR authorized Bush to go to war so long as he felt further diplomatic efforts would not "adequately protect the national security of the US against the continuing threat of Iraq," and some link existed between Iraq and any terrorist organization. There was no requirement that Bush go to the UN *or* that a link be proven between Iraq and 9/11. Pretty much a blank check based on the Bush Administration's perception of a perceived threat.
SEC. 3. AUTHORIZATION FOR USE OF UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES.

...

PRESIDENTIAL DETERMINATION- In connection with the exercise of the authority granted in subsection (a) to use force the President shall, ... make available ... his determination that —

(1) reliance by the United States on further diplomatic or other peaceful means alone either (A) will not adequately protect the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq or (B) is not likely to lead to enforcement of all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq; and

(2) acting pursuant to this joint resolution is consistent with the United States and other countries continuing to take the necessary actions against international terrorist and terrorist organizations, including those nations, organizations, or persons who planned, authorized, committed or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001.

And contrary to what Senator Kerry has said, there was no requirement that an effective post-war plan be completed before any invasion; only that a report be delivered at least every 60 days on post-war planning efforts.
SEC. 4. REPORTS TO CONGRESS.

(a) REPORTS- The President shall, at least once every 60 days, submit to the Congress a report on matters relevant to this joint resolution, including actions taken pursuant to the exercise of authority granted in section 3 and the status of planning for efforts that are expected to be required after such actions are completed, including those actions described in section 7 of the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998 (Public Law 105-338).

To end, if Senator Kerry feels that any of the conditions of the "Iraq War Resolution" were violated by the President, could you point me to any resolutions from Senator Kerry, or one's that he's signed, calling for President Bush's censure and/or impeachment?

Or is it more just a "Waaaah!, he misled to me..!" thing?
I find this a weak argument coming from an experienced lawyer and prosecutor.

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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-04 03:05 AM
Response to Reply #90
104. This is a piecemeal misrepresentation of the legislation
Here it is.

IRAQ WAR RESOLUTION

107th CONGRESS
2d Session
H. J. RES. 114
October 10, 2002

JOINT RESOLUTION
To authorize the use of United States Armed Forces against Iraq.
Whereas in 1990 in response to Iraq's war of aggression against and illegal occupation of Kuwait, the United States forged a coalition of nations to liberate Kuwait and its people in order to defend the national security of the United States and enforce United Nations Security Council resolutions relating to Iraq;

Whereas after the liberation of Kuwait in 1991, Iraq entered into a United Nations sponsored cease-fire agreement pursuant to which Iraq unequivocally agreed, among other things, to eliminate its nuclear, biological, and chemical weapons programs and the means to deliver and develop them, and to end its support for international terrorism;

Whereas the efforts of international weapons inspectors, United States intelligence agencies, and Iraqi defectors led to the discovery that Iraq had large stockpiles of chemical weapons and a large scale biological weapons program, and that Iraq had an advanced nuclear weapons development program that was much closer to producing a nuclear weapon than intelligence reporting had previously indicated;

Whereas Iraq, in direct and flagrant violation of the cease-fire, attempted to thwart the efforts of weapons inspectors to identify and destroy Iraq's weapons of mass destruction stockpiles and development capabilities, which finally resulted in the withdrawal of inspectors from Iraq on October 31, 1998;

Whereas in Public Law 105-235 (August 14, 1998), Congress concluded that Iraq's continuing weapons of mass destruction programs threatened vital United States interests and international peace and security, declared Iraq to be in `material and unacceptable breach of its international obligations' and urged the President `to take appropriate action, in accordance with the Constitution and relevant laws of the United States, to bring Iraq into compliance with its international obligations';

Whereas Iraq both poses a continuing threat to the national security of the United States and international peace and security in the Persian Gulf region and remains in material and unacceptable breach of its international obligations by, among other things, continuing to possess and develop a significant chemical and biological weapons capability, actively seeking a nuclear weapons capability, and supporting and harboring terrorist organizations; Whereas Iraq persists in violating resolution of the United Nations Security Council by continuing to engage in brutal repression of its civilian population thereby threatening international peace and security in the region, by refusing to release, repatriate, or account for non-Iraqi citizens wrongfully detained by Iraq, including an American serviceman, and by failing to return property wrongfully seized by Iraq from Kuwait;

Whereas the current Iraqi regime has demonstrated its capability and willingness to use weapons of mass destruction against other nations and its own people; Whereas the current Iraqi regime has demonstrated its continuing hostility toward, and willingness to attack, the United States, including by attempting in 1993 to assassinate former President Bush and by firing on many thousands of occasions on United States and Coalition Armed Forces engaged in enforcing the resolutions of the United Nations Security Council;

Whereas members of al Qaida, an organization bearing responsibility for attacks on the United States, its citizens, and interests, including the attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, are known to be in Iraq; Whereas Iraq continues to aid and harbor other international terrorist organizations, including organizations that threaten the lives and safety of United States citizens;

Whereas the attacks on the United States of September 11, 2001, underscored the gravity of the threat posed by the acquisition of weapons of mass destruction by international terrorist organizations;

Whereas Iraq's demonstrated capability and willingness to use weapons of mass destruction, the risk that the current Iraqi regime will either employ those weapons to launch a surprise attack against the United States or its Armed Forces or provide them to international terrorists who would do so, and the extreme magnitude of harm that would result to the United States and its citizens from such an attack, combine to justify action by the United States to defend itself;

Whereas United Nations Security Council Resolution 678 (1990) authorizes the use of all necessary means to enforce United Nations Security Council Resolution 660 (1990) and subsequent relevant resolutions and to compel Iraq to cease certain activities that threaten international peace and security, including the development of weapons of mass destruction and refusal or obstruction of United Nations weapons inspections in violation of United Nations Security Council Resolution 687 (1991), repression of its civilian population in violation of United Nations Security Council Resolution 688 (1991), and threatening its neighbors or United Nations operations in Iraq in violation of United Nations Security Council Resolution 949 (1994);

Whereas in the Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution (Public Law 102-1), Congress has authorized the President `to use United States Armed Forces pursuant to United Nations Security Council Resolution 678 (1990) in order to achieve implementation of Security Council Resolution 660, 661, 662, 664, 665, 666, 667, 669, 670, 674, and 677';

Whereas in December 1991, Congress expressed its sense that it `supports the use of all necessary means to achieve the goals of United Nations Security Council Resolution 687 as being consistent with the Authorization of Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution (Public Law 102-1),' that Iraq's repression of its civilian population violates United Nations Security Council Resolution 688 and `constitutes a continuing threat to the peace, security, and stability of the Persian Gulf region,' and that Congress, `supports the use of all necessary means to achieve the goals of United Nations Security Council Resolution 688';

Whereas the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998 (Public Law 105-338) expressed the sense of Congress that it should be the policy of the United States to support efforts to remove from power the current Iraqi regime and promote the emergence of a democratic government to replace that regime;

Whereas on September 12, 2002, President Bush committed the United States to `work with the United Nations Security Council to meet our common challenge' posed by Iraq and to `work for the necessary resolutions,' while also making clear that `the Security Council resolutions will be enforced, and the just demands of peace and security will be met, or action will be unavoidable'; Whereas the United States is determined to prosecute the war on terrorism and Iraq's ongoing support for international terrorist groups combined with its development of weapons of mass destruction in direct violation of its obligations under the 1991 cease-fire and other United Nations Security Council resolutions make clear that it is in the national security interests of the United States and in furtherance of the war on terrorism that all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions be enforced, including through the use of force if necessary;

Whereas Congress has taken steps to pursue vigorously the war on terrorism through the provision of authorities and funding requested by the President to take the necessary actions against international terrorists and terrorist organizations, including those nations, organizations, or persons who planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such persons or organizations;

Whereas the President and Congress are determined to continue to take all appropriate actions against international terrorists and terrorist organizations, including those nations, organizations, or persons who planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such persons or organizations;

Whereas the President has authority under the Constitution to take action in order to deter and prevent acts of international terrorism against the United States, as Congress recognized in the joint resolution on Authorization for Use of Military Force (Public Law 107-40); and

Whereas it is in the national security interests of the United States to restore international peace and security to the Persian Gulf region: Now, therefore, be it Resolved by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,

SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.
This joint resolution may be cited as the `Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution of 2002'.

SEC. 2. SUPPORT FOR UNITED STATES DIPLOMATIC EFFORTS. The Congress of the United States supports the efforts by the President to--
(1) strictly enforce through the United Nations Security Council all relevant Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq and encourages him in those efforts; and
(2) obtain prompt and decisive action by the Security Council to ensure that Iraq abandons its strategy of delay, evasion and noncompliance and promptly and strictly complies with all relevant Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq.

SEC. 3. AUTHORIZATION FOR USE OF UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES.
(a) AUTHORIZATION- The President is authorized to use the Armed Forces of the United States as he determines to be necessary and appropriate in order to--
(1) defend the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq; and
(2) enforce all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq.
(b) PRESIDENTIAL DETERMINATION- In connection with the exercise of the authority granted in subsection (a) to use force the President shall, prior to such exercise or as soon thereafter as may be feasible, but no later than 48 hours after exercising such authority, make available to the Speaker of the House of Representatives and the President pro tempore of the Senate his determination that--
(1) reliance by the United States on further diplomatic or other peaceful means alone either (A) will not adequately protect the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq or (B) is not likely to lead to enforcement of all relevant United Nations Security Council resolutions regarding Iraq
; and
(2) acting pursuant to this joint resolution is consistent with the United States and other countries continuing to take the necessary actions against international terrorist and terrorist organizations, including those nations, organizations, or persons who planned, authorized, committed or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001.
(c) War Powers Resolution Requirements-
(1) SPECIFIC STATUTORY AUTHORIZATION- Consistent with section 8(a)(1) of the War Powers Resolution, the Congress declares that this section is intended to constitute specific statutory authorization within the meaning of section 5(b) of the War Powers Resolution.
(2) APPLICABILITY OF OTHER REQUIREMENTS- Nothing in this joint resolution supersedes any requirement of the War Powers Resolution.
SEC. 4. REPORTS TO CONGRESS. (a) REPORTS- The President shall, at least once every 60 days, submit to the Congress a report on matters relevant to this joint resolution, including actions taken pursuant to the exercise of authority granted in section 3 and the status of planning for efforts that are expected to be required after such actions are completed, including those actions described in section 7 of the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998 (Public Law 105-338).
(b) SINGLE CONSOLIDATED REPORT- To the extent that the submission of any report described in subsection (a) coincides with the submission of any other report on matters relevant to this joint resolution otherwise required to be submitted to Congress pursuant to the reporting requirements of the War Powers Resolution (Public Law 93-148), all such reports may be submitted as a single consolidated report to the Congress.
(c) RULE OF CONSTRUCTION- To the extent that the information required by section 3 of the Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Iraq Resolution (Public Law 102-1) is included in the report required by this section, such report shall be considered as meeting the requirements of section 3 of such resolution

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krkaufman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-04 05:34 AM
Response to Reply #104
106. Ummm... thanks, that cleared everything right up.
Seriously, posting the full text, aside from being annoying and against the house rules, does little to explain your viewpoint. What is your point?

All the "whereas" bunk is history and causal. The "support" section places no constraints on Bush; it's a very milquetoast "gee, we'd sure like ya to go to the UN, but, ya know, it's up to you."

And simple parsing of the one relevant section, Section 3 Auth for war, shows just what Sen. Byrd states... it's effectively a blank check to be cashed at Bush's discretion.

3(a)(1) authorizes force if Bush perceives a continued threat from Iraq, and
3(a)(2) to enforce UN resolutions (though it doesn't require UN participation; oops)

3(b)(1)(A) President must determine peaceful means alone cannot resolve continuing threat from Iraq.
3(b)(1)(B) moot, since it's the second part of an "or" condition.
3(b)(2) requires that the President determine that Iraq is linked to terrorists.

That's it. None of the verbiage Kerry talks about in his speech. So why did he sign it?

At least the Biden-Lugar bill, that Kerry mentions, would have required Bush come back to Congress so that Congress could "check" his exercise of authority. Crazy concept.
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lastknowngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:22 PM
Response to Original message
47. anybody with an IQ above 90 and any connection to
the net or the BBC knew this whole thing was an excuse to steal Iraq's oil. If our "leaders" are unwilling to lead then what the hell are they doing in power? If the "democratic leadership" had opposed this damn war instead of begging Bushco not to hurt them in the midterm election they would have something to complain about. However if they support the shrub via their votes they can't then declare that the decision was wrong. That is why they are all looking to blame the CIA for this crap in both party's so they can fane ignorance.
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isbister Donating Member (902 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #47
67. I have both
and didn't know that.

I thought the primary goal was to get boots on the ground in the middle east. bin Laden told bush to get out of Saudi Arabia and bush did.

Kerry didn't have any worries in the election, the seat was his no matter what happened with the vote. Read what he said at the time of the vote:

http://johnkerry.com/pressroom/speeches/spc_2002_1009.html

yes, he can complain as he said he would.
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corporatewhore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:23 PM
Response to Original message
48. To kerry supporters who complain about dean nt having to vote:
You guys know i dont like howard dean but you guys are being hypocritical because Kucinich did have to and he knew and he did not vote for IWR
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isbister Donating Member (902 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #48
68. I don't know
Did Kucinich support the UN monitoring Saddam under any conditions? If you know.
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SheilaT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:27 PM
Response to Original message
50. A lot of us out here in the hinterlands
knew perfectly well that Saddam Hussein was not an imminent threat. We believed Scott Ritter -- remember him? -- who was going around saying Saddam no longer had any weapons.

I will not vote for a single person who voted for the war. It's as simple as that. Anyone stupid enough to believe Bush's lies -- it's not as though by early 2003 he hadn't given plenty of proof that we was a complete lying sack of shit -- is too stupid himself to be president.
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KissMyAsscroft Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:34 PM
Response to Reply #50
60. Thank you Sheila!


You are correct, but I will still vote to get Bush out of office because I believe Clark to be the lesser of two evils and there will be real benefits putting him into office.

But I am voting against Bush, not for Kerry.
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isbister Donating Member (902 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #50
64. by early 2003 he hadn't given plenty of proof
So...I get it. Your position is that in early 2003 kerry should have jumped into his time machine and gone back to October 2002 and changed his vote.

You're right... why didn't I think of him using that time machine of his... he's always willing to use it for all of his other evil deeds, why couldn't he have used it for good this time
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krkaufman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #64
84. Semantics, schmemantics..!
As soon as I read the earlier poster's reference to "early 2003", I knew one of the Kerry apologists would hop all over it.

Forget the "early 2003" statement. I will concede that time travel is not yet possible. (yet) Ok, done. You win that point.

Now please go back to the October 11, 2002 decision and explain why 155 other Senators and Representatives voted *against* the resolution. The fact is, plenty of evidence was available that Iraq was not an imminent threat of any kind, to the US *or* Iraq's neighbors, nor was there any link between Saddam and Al Qaeda.

The resolution gave the President permission to go to war, with minimal preconditions.
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SheilaT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-04 01:52 AM
Response to Reply #64
99. On January 20, 2001,
when Bush raised his right hand and promised to uphold the Constitution, I said, "Well, that's his first lie." I was more correct than I knew.

He has lied and lied and lied about everything ever since . . . not just ever since he took office, because I doubt he's said too many truthful things at any point in his life. It's just gotten a whole lot worse in recent years.

Anyone who believed that Bush and those around him was telling the truth about the need to unilaterally invade Iraq -- which is EXACTLY what triggered the Nuremberg War Tribunal -- anyone who believed that is an utter fool.

And to excuse Kerry (or any of the other senators who voted for the IWR) on the basis that we would have gone to war without their vote, shouldn't a man or woman stand up for what's right, rather than for what's expedient?
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Lobo_13 Donating Member (569 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 08:56 PM
Response to Original message
78. You have to read between the lines when listening to Kerry
When he says he didn't know bush would fuck it up, what he really meant was:

"I was planning on running for president. The polls showed that the American people were in favor of a war, so I voted in a way to keep from alienating those voters. How the hell was I supposed to know that the American People didn't actually want to go to war? When I'm President, I have an innovative plan to hire the most expensive pollsters to tell me what to say and what decisions to make. I'll be sure to bend over for the corporate interests that filled my campaign coffers, but I'll tell you I'm not. We need slogans, not solutions. Er . . . I mean we need solutions not slogans. I'm the Real Deal."
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creativelcro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 09:10 PM
Response to Original message
85. That is the obvious point. Denying it is insane.
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 09:11 PM
Response to Original message
86. It's bullcrap like this that is the reason everyone is confused about what
is going on in Washington and it is the primary and foremost reason that I cannot support Kerry for the nomination.

He isn't trying to explain the situation to folks, he's trying to build up his own image and this is why Democrats did poorly in 2002 and 1994 and the years in between, IMHO.

It's hard enough to get reliable information on politics, I don't like it when the candidate I most likely will be supporting in the general election tells outright lies because that candidate thinks it will help him, in the short term, to win an election.
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JohnOneillsMemory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 11:07 PM
Response to Reply #86
97. Sadly, they all lie. 'Cept Kuch and that's why he's in low single digits.
Edited on Sat Jan-31-04 11:14 PM by JohnOneillsMemory
I don't mean to sound like an apologist for Kerry (or anyone)by pointing that out.

It's hard to stomach and submit to the knowledge that our Fallow Merkins have been raised from birth to believe a matrix of lies such as 'our government represents us,' 'our government acts to promote democracy and human rights at home and around the world.' Wrong. Dead wrong.

Politicians who accept this and speak in the Orwellian language of a of a master-race mentality to a constituency which believes black=white are allowed to lay a pinky on the steering wheel of the ship of state. Almost all the momentum of this behemoth is determined by the Military Industrial Complex and its efforts to dominate the other murderous power structures around the planet.

Kerry came back from Vietnam in his idealistic youth and reported to Congress and the Merkin people that black was not white, that red-white-and-blue did not equal Superman Jesus in a cowboy hat. I wonder if his voting for the Iraq War Resolution was his way of giving the petro-nazis enough rope to hang themselves and give himself a chance to replace them. If true, a horrible calculation but then he is now polling ahead of Bush*.

His four terms in the Senate taught him how hard it is to change the directions of people's minds and that those who try usually end up chewed up in the propellers. He has done what he can to stay on the bridge. He is trying to get to the wheel. I hope that he or anyone of the Democratic candidates succeeds.

Except Clark. We are suffering from the militarization of our culture and a Generalissimo Prez would take us further in that direction.

Read my signature quote from Hitler's 'Mein Kampf.' It is appalling to the degree that it is still true today in our country. I'm afraid it is and our Democratic presidential candidate will have to speak atleast partly in lies to topple W's statue in Washington DC.
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Melinda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 09:19 PM
Response to Original message
87. Senator Byrd's IWR judgment was sound; Kerry's (and JE) was not.
Edited on Sat Jan-31-04 09:20 PM by Melinda
Posted in another thread and reposting here as it's just so darn relevant:

...."I have listened closely to the president. I have questioned the members of his war cabinet. I have searched for that single piece of evidence that would convince me that the president must have in his hands, before the month is out, open-ended Congressional authorization to deliver an unprovoked attack on Iraq. I remain unconvinced. The president's case for an unprovoked attack is circumstantial at best. Saddam Hussein is a threat, but the threat is not so great that we must be stampeded to provide such authority to this president just weeks before an election."

"Why are we being hounded into action on a resolution that turns over to President Bush the Congress's Constitutional power to declare war? This resolution would authorize the president to use the military forces of this nation wherever, whenever and however he determines, and for as long as he determines, if he can somehow make a connection to Iraq. It is a blank check for the president to take whatever action he feels "is necessary and appropriate in order to defend the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq." This broad resolution underwrites, promotes and endorses the unprecedented Bush doctrine of preventive war and pre-emptive strikes — detailed in a recent publication, "National Security Strategy of the United States" — against any nation that the president, and the president alone, determines to be a threat."

...." Congress must not attempt to give away the authority to determine when war is to be declared. We must not allow any president to unleash the dogs of war at his own discretion and for an unlimited period of time."

...."We must not yield to this absurd pressure to act now, 27 days before an election that will determine the entire membership of the House of Representatives and that of a third of the Senate."

-------------------------

And some of you will remember, and lament all that has happened since this:

Byrd said his Washington, D.C. office received 50,000 e-mails and nearly 20,000 telephone calls during the past week.

"I want to thank all those people who took time to contact me. Their words have strengthened and heartened me. These are my heroes....

"The American people have a better understanding of the Constitution than the people they elected to represent them."


---------------
There was no justification for the War in Iraq, and Kerry's "reasoning" falls far short of its mark. Here's a few of the "consequences" the IWR vote wrought:



I will NEVER vote for the man who voted for THIS.
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corporatewhore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 09:23 PM
Response to Reply #87
89. heck ron paul even opposed it ...but still what about voting for the man
who will continue it.My father will return there in 2005 under kerry clark or dean he says the iraqis dont want us there and said that "some of our guys are psychos w/guns and an a uniform"
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kayob1 Donating Member (116 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-04 02:07 AM
Response to Reply #87
100. I'm with you!!
Great post!
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eyeswideopened Donating Member (159 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-04 02:15 AM
Response to Reply #87
101. I wish Bryd could run
You should post this as a major thread.... It is very good.
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DrFunkenstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-04 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #87
116. Do You Think Similar Pictures Couldn't Come From The Wars Dean Supported?
Or from Biden-Lugar?
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Vis Numar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 10:12 PM
Response to Original message
93. its totally disgusting
That we Democrats are about to nominate this lying sack of shit Kerry. I am disgusted.
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snoochie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-31-04 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #93
98. So scared of losing to bush
most are willing to vote for any perceived 'strong' candidate.
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Cheswick2.0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-04 08:30 AM
Response to Reply #93
112. it's not Kerry's yet
There is no reason to give up. Kerry should not be out nominee and he won't be if people refuse to fall in line with the DLC DNC plan to force an early decission.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-04 02:41 AM
Response to Original message
102. Kerry didn't vote for the resolution out of some trust for Bush
He was trying, with his vote, to forestall war. Try to read his words and see if his views of Bush's aims don't comport with yours. I hear no difference between what you believe and what Sen. Kerry expected from the president.

You would ignore his words which were spoken before the vote which clearly outline why he supported the IWR. His support had nothing to do with Bush's eventual rush to war. Mind-readers and soul searchers can differ on whether he meant what he said. I choose to believe him.

Read his speech and tell me what he should disavow. How did Bush live up to the restraint implied in the resolution? Didn't he lie to Congress. Didn't he rush to war? Wasn't his unilateral, preemptive rush to war far outside of the mandate of the resolution which some Democrats like John Kerry forced him to agree to in an attempt to forestall war?

Bush took the position at the time that U.N. resolution 1441 gave him the authority to do whatever he wanted. All he had to do under the War Powers Act was to commit forces and report back to Congress in 60 days like decades of presidents had done. Congress would then be loath to withdraw forces.

The IWR was seen by some as a way to steer Bush back to the U.N. Indeed language to that effect was inserted in the bill by some Democrats, including John Kerry.

Also at their insistance Bush's original request for broad authority was scrapped. From Sen. Kerry's floor speech:




EXERPTS FROM THE TEXT OF THE SPEECH JOHN KERRY MADE ON THE SENATE FLOOR October 9, 2002
http://www.independentsforkerry.org/uploads/media/kerry-iraq.html

Those of us who have offered questions and criticisms--and there are many in this body and beyond--can take heart in the fact that those questions and those criticisms have had an impact on the debate. They have changed how we may or may not deal with Iraq. The Bush administration began talking about Iraq by suggesting that congressional consultation and authorization for the use of force were not needed.

Now they are consulting with Congress and seeking our authorization. The administration began this process walking down a path of unilateralism. Today they acknowledge that while we reserve the right to act alone, it is better to act with allies. The administration which once seemed entirely disengaged from the United Nations ultimately went to the United Nations and began building international consensus to hold Saddam Hussein accountable. The administration began this process suggesting that the United States might well go to war over Saddam Hussein's failure to return Kuwaiti property. Last week the Secretary of State and on Monday night the President made clear we would go to war only to disarm Iraq.

The administration began discussion of Iraq by almost belittling the importance of arms inspections. Today the administration has refocused their aim and made clear we are not in an arbitrary conflict with one of the world's many dictators, but a conflict with a dictator whom the international community left in power only because he agreed not to pursue weapons of mass destruction.

That is why arms inspections--and I believe ultimately Saddam's unwillingness to submit to fail-safe inspections--is absolutely critical in building international support for our case to the world. That is the way in which you make it clear to the world that we are contemplating war not for war's sake, and not to accomplish goals that don't meet international standards or muster with respect to national security, but because weapons inspections may be the ultimate enforcement mechanism, and that may be the way in which we ultimately protect ourselves.

The reason for going to war, if we must fight, is not because Saddam Hussein has failed to deliver gulf war prisoners or Kuwaiti property. As much as we decry the way he has treated his people, regime change alone is not a sufficient reason for going to war, as desirable as it is to change the regime.

Regime change has been an American policy under the Clinton administration, and it is the current policy. I support the policy. But regime change in and of itself is not sufficient justification for going to war--particularly unilaterally--unless regime change is the only way to disarm Iraq of the weapons of mass destruction pursuant to the United Nations resolution.

As bad as he is, Saddam Hussein, the dictator, is not the cause of war. Saddam Hussein sitting in Baghdad with an arsenal of weapons of mass destruction is a different matter. In the wake of September 11, who among us can say, with any certainty, to anybody, that those weapons might not be used against our troops or against allies in the region? Who can say that this master of miscalculation will not develop a weapon of mass destruction even greater--a nuclear weapon--then reinvade Kuwait, push the Kurds out, attack Israel, any number of scenarios to try to further his ambitions to be the pan-Arab leader or simply to confront in the region, and once again miscalculate the response, to believe he is stronger because he has those weapons?

And while the administration has failed to provide any direct link between Iraq and the events of September 11, can we afford to ignore the possibility that Saddam Hussein might accidentally, as well as purposely, allow those weapons to slide off to one group or other in a region where weapons are the currency of trade? How do we leave that to chance?

That is why the enforcement mechanism through the United Nations and the reality of the potential of the use of force is so critical to achieve the protection of long-term interests, not just of the United States but of the world, to understand that the dynamic has changed, that we are living in a different status today, that we cannot sit by and be as complacent or even negligent about weapons of mass destruction and proliferation as we have been in the past.

The Iraqi regime's record over the decade leaves little doubt that Saddam Hussein wants to retain his arsenal of weapons of mass destruction and, obviously, as we have said, grow it. These weapons represent an unacceptable threat.

I want to underscore that this administration began this debate with a resolution that granted exceedingly broad authority to the President to use force. I regret that some in the Congress rushed so quickly to support it. I would have opposed it. It gave the President the authority to use force not only to enforce all of the U.N. resolutions as a cause of war, but also to produce regime change in Iraq, and to restore international peace and security in the Persian Gulf region. It made no mention of the President's efforts at the United Nations or the need to build multilateral support for whatever course of action we ultimately would take.

I am pleased that our pressure, and the questions we have asked, and the criticisms that have been raised publicly, the debate in our democracy has pushed this administration to adopt important changes, both in language as well as in the promises that they make.

The revised White House text, which we will vote on, limits the grant of authority to the President to the use of force only with respect to Iraq. It does not empower him to use force throughout the Persian Gulf region. It authorizes the President to use Armed Forces to defend the ``national security'' of the United States--a power most of us believe he already has under the Constitution as Commander in Chief. And it empowers him to enforce all ``relevant'' Security Council resolutions related to Iraq. None of those resolutions or, for that matter, any of the other Security Council resolutions demanding Iraqi compliance with its international obligations, calls for a regime change.

In recent days, the administration has gone further. They are defining what "relevant" U.N. Security Council resolutions mean. When Secretary Powell testified before our committee, the Foreign Relations Committee, on September 26, he was asked what specific U.N. Security Council resolutions the United States would go to war to enforce. His response was clear: the resolutions dealing with weapons of mass destruction and the disarmament of Iraq. In fact, when asked about compliance with other U.N. resolutions which do not deal with weapons of mass destruction, the Secretary said: The President has not linked authority to go to war to any of those elements.

When asked why the resolution sent by the President to Congress requested authority to enforce all the resolutions with which Iraq had not complied, the Secretary told the committee: That's the way the resolution is currently worded, but we all know, I think, that the major problem, the offense, what the President is focused on and the danger to us and to the world are the weapons of mass destruction.

In his speech on Monday night, President Bush confirmed what Secretary Powell told the committee. In the clearest presentation to date, the President laid out a strong, comprehensive, and compelling argument why Iraq's weapons of mass destruction programs are a threat to the United States and the international community. The President said: "Saddam Hussein must disarm himself, or, for the sake of peace, we will lead a coalition to disarm him."

This statement left no doubt that the casus belli for the United States will be Iraq's failure to rid itself of weapons of mass destruction.

I would have preferred that the President agree to the approach drafted by Senators Biden and Lugar because that resolution would authorize the use of force for the explicit purpose of disarming Iraq and countering the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction.

The Biden-Lugar resolution also acknowledges the importance of the President's efforts at the United Nations. It would require the President, before exercising the authority granted in the resolution, to send a determination to Congress that the United States tried to seek a new Security Council resolution or that the threat posed by Iraq's WMD is so great he must act absent a new resolution--a power, incidentally, that the President of the United States always has.

I believe this approach would have provided greater clarity to the American people about the reason for going to war and the specific grant of authority. I think it would have been a better way to do this. But it does not change the bottom line of what we are voting for.

The administration, unwisely, in my view, rejected the Biden-Lugar approach. But, perhaps as a nod to the sponsors, it did agree to a determination requirement on the status of its efforts at the United Nations. That is now embodied in the White House text.

The President has challenged the United Nations, as he should, and as all of us in the Senate should, to enforce its own resolutions vis-a-vis Iraq. And his administration is now working aggressively with the Perm 5 members on the Security Council to reach a consensus. As he told the American people Monday night: "America wants the U.N. to be an effective organization that helps keep the peace. And that is why we are urging the Security Council to adopt a new resolution setting out tough, immediate requirements. Because of my concerns, and because of the need to understand, with clarity, what this resolution meant, I traveled to New York a week ago. I met with members of the Security Council and came away with a conviction that they will indeed move to enforce, that they understand the need to enforce, if Saddam Hussein does not fulfill his obligation to disarm."

And I believe they made it clear that if the United States operates through the U.N., and through the Security Council, they--all of them--will also bear responsibility for the aftermath of rebuilding Iraq and for the joint efforts to do what we need to do as a consequence of that enforcement. I talked to Secretary General Kofi Annan at the end of last week and again felt a reiteration of the seriousness with which the United Nations takes this and that they will respond.

If the President arbitrarily walks away from this course of action--without good cause or reason--the legitimacy of any subsequent action by the United States against Iraq will be challenged by the American people and the international community. And I would vigorously oppose the President doing so.

When I vote to give the President of the United States the authority to use force, if necessary, to disarm Saddam Hussein, it is because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a threat, and a grave threat, to our security and that of our allies in the Persian Gulf region. I will vote yes because I believe it is the best way to hold Saddam Hussein accountable. And the administration, I believe, is now committed to a recognition that war must be the last option to address this threat, not the first, and that we must act in concert with allies around the globe to make the world's case against Saddam Hussein.

As the President made clear earlier this week, "Approving this resolution does not mean that military action is imminent or unavoidable." It means "America speaks with one voice."

Let me be clear, the vote I will give to the President is for one reason and one reason only: To disarm Iraq of weapons of mass destruction, if we cannot accomplish that objective through new, tough weapons inspections in joint concert with our allies.

In giving the President this authority, I expect him to fulfill the commitments he has made to the American people in recent days--to work with the United Nations Security Council to adopt a new resolution setting out tough and immediate inspection requirements, and to act with our allies at our side if we have to disarm Saddam Hussein by force. If he fails to do so, I will be among the first to speak out.

If we do wind up going to war with Iraq, it is imperative that we do so with others in the international community, unless there is a showing of a grave, imminent--and I emphasize "imminent"--threat to this country which requires the President to respond in a way that protects our immediate national security needs.

Prime Minister Tony Blair has recognized a similar need to distinguish how we approach this. He has said that he believes we should move in concert with allies, and he has promised his own party that he will not do so otherwise. The administration may not be in the habit of building coalitions, but that is what they need to do. And it is what can be done. If we go it alone without reason, we risk inflaming an entire region, breeding a new generation of terrorists, a new cadre of anti-American zealots, and we will be less secure, not more secure, at the end of the day, even with Saddam Hussein disarmed.

Let there be no doubt or confusion about where we stand on this. I will support a multilateral effort to disarm him by force, if we ever exhaust those other options, as the President has promised, but I will not support a unilateral U.S. war against Iraq unless that threat is imminent and the multilateral effort has not proven possible under any circumstances.

In voting to grant the President the authority, I am not giving him carte blanche to run roughshod over every country that poses or may pose some kind of potential threat to the United States. Every nation has the right to act preemptively, if it faces an imminent and grave threat, for its self-defense under the standards of law. The threat we face today with Iraq does not meet that test yet. I emphasize "yet." Yes, it is grave because of the deadliness of Saddam Hussein's arsenal and the very high probability that he might use these weapons one day if not disarmed. But it is not imminent, and no one in the CIA, no intelligence briefing we have had suggests it is imminent. None of our intelligence reports suggest that he is about to launch an attack.

The argument for going to war against Iraq is rooted in enforcement of the international community's demand that he disarm. It is not rooted in the doctrine of preemption. Nor is the grant of authority in this resolution an acknowledgment that Congress accepts or agrees with the President's new strategic doctrine of preemption. Just the opposite. This resolution clearly limits the authority given to the President to use force in Iraq, and Iraq only, and for the specific purpose of defending the United States against the threat posed by Iraq and enforcing relevant Security Council resolutions.
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krkaufman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-04 05:18 AM
Response to Reply #102
105. Lots of words, negated by one other
Sen. Kerry's speech, though verbose and I suppose heartfelt, is pretty much negated by his voting for a resolution that contained none of the requirements to which he spoke.

Even old Senator Byrd could see that.

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Myra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-04 05:39 AM
Response to Original message
107. I don't buy it either. There are two possibilities:
1) Kerry voted for the IWR for crass political reasons, thinking
we'd beat up on Iraq and it'd end up being popular with voters.

2) Kerry's a naive man with terrible judgment, trusting the very
person who had just stolen the white house, when logic would dictate
that people don't steal elections to do good things.

So Kerry's either a cold calculating politician with no principles,
or a fool.

Either way, not presidential material.
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-04 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #107
115. Third Option - Rope
Maybe I'm just imagining it, but I recall at the time hearing converstions that giving Bush what he wanted was also a way of setting him up, if it had gone badly.

Just like how some in the Dem contigent have been trying to get legislation for a Draft to the floor, as a way of calling Bush's hand.

In both instances, the people being fucked with are the ones who are over in Iraq, some dying.
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quaker bill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-04 08:19 AM
Response to Original message
109. But he has been working so hard on it!
It's the Bush* isn't making us any safer, but Bush capturing Saddam makes America safer pretzel logic.

It is the I read the intelligence reports and voted for war correctly, but Bush* read the same reports and started a war incorrectly pretzel logic.

It is the if we only had a couple more allies, this atrocity would have been so much better pretzel logic.

Don't like pretzels?
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Cheswick2.0 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-04 08:23 AM
Response to Original message
110. no, I don't think anyone buys it
The people here that are Kerry supporters were often for the war anyway.
But I will tell you what people in the real world are thinking. They have no idea what Kerry stands for or how he voted on anything. They are responding to push polling and a corporate media which wants a Kerry nomination because it means no change even if Kerry were to beat bush which is doubtful to begin with.
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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-04 08:27 AM
Response to Original message
111. No sale here
It's laughable too that so many Kerry folks assert he's a BFEE expert andhe's the guy to bring them down. hahhahahahahaha!!!!!!!

Some expert!! *snicker*

Julie
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Iverson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-01-04 08:31 AM
Response to Original message
113. Partisanship trumps evidence, truth, etc.
Probably nobody "buys" Kerry's excuse in the sense of believing it at face value, but large numbers of people will be willing to pretend to believe it because they see a greater good being served.

And hey, there were no consequences to it. Right?
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