Socialized National Health Care DOESN'T WORK!*

[Yollam]

That's right. I can tell you from personal experience.



I lived in Japan from 1995 to 2000. I had the Social National Health Insurance.

I paid $70 a month in premiums, which was matched by my employer.

It covered full medical AND dental for me, my wife and two kids.

I could choose any doctor I liked, so we picked the doctor in the neighborhood.

I could go any time, even without an appointment, and still the wait times were less than 30 minutes most of the time.

Office visits were $5.

Prescription drugs were $5.

There was no HMO or other gouging middleman to deal with, and little paperwork involved in being referred to a specialist.

I understand that Japan spends less than HALF per capita of what we do on health care, despite its aging population, and still they manage to cover EVERYONE, while we only cover about 60% of the population.


*Yeah, National Health Care in Japan, and in European countries with similar systems is a dismal failure.

After all, it totally fails to generate huge profits for overpaid CEOs, shell-gaming HMO's and redundant "Health Care Access Administrators".




We'd best never emulate those commie systems. After all, who wants to live in a country where everybody's healthy?

Just wait till one of your lower-paid co-workers comes down with say, kidney disease, and then you and everyone in the office can just have bake sales and car washes to pay for his dialysis. That's the way to do it!

Or if you're really lucky, he just won't mention it for shame of being unable to afford health care, and he'll just die quietly and save you all the trouble.

Oh, thank you George Bush for your wonderful health savings plans. I can't wait until you take away the employer deduction for health care and rid us of those pesky benefits once and for all.

After all, it's not like we can already put money in a tax-deferred account right now, is it?

And EVERYONE has a couple hundred EXTRA bucks lying around at the end of every month to sock away, right?



"Oh yeah, with the major bucks Ronald McD pays me, I've got plenty left over after my sky-high rent and child-care. Thank You Dear Leader for the wonderful health savings accounts!

[deadparrot]

1. Oh, shove it, commie.

:hi:

[FormerDittoHead]

31. Maybe your kid's needed operation will make you WORK harder, lazy bastard!

:sarcasm: :hi:

[Jeffersons Ghost]

66. Hang on here DUers

Aren't we supposed to flame this thread because of a misleading head-line? Don't you just hate when writers stoop so low? As you know, I'd never use a flame-bait headline! :argh:

[johnfunk]

103. I think DeadParot and FRF are in on the joke -- YOU COMMIE BASTID!

[Autonomy]

97. Healthcare is overrated

Don't be a sensitive little whiner. Just walk it off. Our heroes who were incapacitated while protecting our freedom don't have healthcare -- why should you?

Booyah.

[StClone]

145. I saw Cheney walking with a cane!

While ordering more killings and spying. And I think you mean heroes "decapitated" not incapacited as Bush seems to operate well (well NeoCon-ically anyway) without a brain.

[LSdemocrat]

2. Won't somebody please think of the poor CEOs?

:shrug:

[SammyWinstonJack]

193. Those CEOs who give themselves million dollar salaries?

I think they think enough of themselves to screw over the rest of us, without giving it a second thought! :silly: Greedy Bastards!

[kurth]

3. Another example is the French system

widely regarded as the best universal health care delivery system in the world.

[radwriter0555]

9. Yeah, it's just HORRIBLE. Those damn docs always available for walk

in and same day appointments. No charge for prescripts, no waiting more than 5 minutes for the prescrips... and gosh I miss the days when the computer at Rite Aid would "lose" my information and I'd have to pay $100 cash out of pocket for that vital medication.

I really miss waiting 3 months for an appointment with a specialist! I MISS hours and hours in the waiting room for xrays... I really do!

I MISS being jacked up with prescipts from docs who get their ideas for treating an ailment from commission pharm salespeople who take the time of the doctors away from ME, while chatting them up.

And gosh I MISS prescripts foisted on me that were 'effective in less 12% of the test group'...

Yep, sure do miss that good old Uhmurrikkkan health care!

[Auntie Bush]

225. Don't be such a know-it-all!

I can list a few myself.

1. I miss getting to read all those different magizines...without paying a dime. Now I don't have to wait and have to buy my own. Don't you realize how expensive a subscription to NEWSWEEK..TIME HOME AND GARDEN and SPORTS Magazine are? This damn no waiting is costing me money! The nerve of them!

2. I missed out on all the fun trips to the hospital last year visiting my husband when they kicked him out early when his Medicare ran out. Of course he almost died but that doesn't count because he managed to live anyway...no problem!

3. I give up...you win. I'm too angry to discuss it any further.

[cyberia]

14. Absolutely!

Besides all the normal everyday stuff that Yollam talks about, there is tremendous coverage for catastrophic cases. For example, one of my kids was born severely handicapped. He has lifetime care in a specialized facility provided for by the commie national healthcare system at no extra cost to me. I once talked to a family in NY City with a similar problem. Their solution? They are bankrupt.

[gristy]

71. Well, welcome to DU!

:hi:
Where are you?

[lavenderdiva]

72. What makes the French plan superior?

As I have no health insurance, nor my husband, as we just can't afford it, we are very interested in universal healthcare, and wish we could have it here in the U.S. I grew up in Australia, where we had it, and waaaaayyyyy back in the 1960's, no office visit was over $3!!!!!

I also have another question: at what point in each country did they decide to embrace universal healthcare, and how did they change over to that system? Was healthcare as we now know it, the system in place then, and then they went to universal healthcare? Or, did the government itself, actually take the bull by the horns, and turn the country around? Does anyone know how the movement towards it started in these countries that now have it? I ask because I want to know how we can convince this country that this is what we need.

[cyberia]

78. The German experience is probably the best model for the US

Germany got national health care and social security all in one fell swoop in the 19th century. It was that great communist Otto von Bismarck who brought it in. Actually, Otto was a heavy duty right-winger. His argument was that German industry needed a healthy, secure workforce in order to succeed. Hence, he started all manner of social programs to keep German workers healthy and make them feel secure. He was lambasted by everyone but the socialists, called a socialist, took it on the chin and replied. "You can call me whatever you want, but this is what we need to do to make capitalism work." (free paraphrase)

The French system developed in a different way. There was an accumulation of efforts, primarily through mutual aid societies (non-profit, member-run insurance) from the 19th century until WWII. In 1945, the government decided to sweep away the hodgepodge and passed a couple of laws creating a more or less uniform system of coverage. The motivation was to create a more solid and less fragmentary system than the mutuals could provide by themselves.

http://www.securite-sociale.fr/secu/histo/historique.htm#1898

[NewJeffCT]

182. That has been one of my arguments for years

Universal health care is one of the most pro-business moves the federal government could make.

[cyclezealot]

158. Canada's switch to Single Payer

From what I know of Canada. Manitoba, Sasketchawan have always been breeding grounds for Commie types. Maybe, because their democracy is more representative and less run by lobbyists?
But, a prairie populist named Tommy Douglas became premier of Manitoba, I think. Those commie farmers. He installed it into Manitoba. Became so popular that the rest of Canada installed it in the 60's , I think. Even most Torries don't threaten to end Socialized medicine. Don't think the weak government of Harper will be able to attack it.
But, anyway. Hawaii has semi-socialized medicine. Why not catch on here? I say most states are even run by the lobbyists. So doubt that will happen. Only way to get reform here. When the whole system becomes so expensive- it totally unravels. Could happen soon?
Regarding the French system. Want to check out statistics on quality of health care about the world. The UN has an organization that tracks facts about health care delivery. The quality of the French care system can be documented there. I understand the French care system is a blend of Canada's and Germany's.

[TaleWgnDg]

173. Wha? What a nerve! Cutting out the corporate middlemen?!! n/t

[u4ic]

176. One particular Tory does

http://www.cbc.ca/calgary/story/ca_thirdwave20060127.html

p.s. Tommy Douglas was premier of Saskatchewan. :hi:

[cyclezealot]

179. Alberta is Canada's closest version of Oklahoma.

But, not to worry. Any Canadian disatisfaction with their present system will disappear when they come face to face with US health care premimums and Insurance practices. I predict they will treat American health care companies in the same manner US Senior citizens are treating Bush's Part D Drug plan. It will be a good lesson for the rest of Canada. All this problem caused by Canada's Federal-Provincial federalism.?
As to Tommy Douglas. Originator of what, the CCC (co-operative party.) Did he not have like a celebration of his 100th year, since his birth. He received some special honor, like his face on a national stamp. Seems the stories centered about some special tributes honored him as one of Canada's greatest citizens.?

[u4ic]

205. Never heard Oklahoma;

the comparison is usually Texas.

I'm in Alberta, and I'm VERY concerned. The provincial government (Conservative) is forcing this upon us. It doesn't have a lot of popularity amongst the public; however, the sheeple in Alberta have given this idiot a majority government 3x in a row. He wants this for his legacy...and once the corporations and HMO's get a foot in the door, they can't be kicked out again. NAFTA.

Tommy Douglas was voted Greatest Canadian: http://www.cbc.ca/greatest/top_ten/nominee/douglas-tommy.html

[cyclezealot]

208. u4

Californian's have been working to bring about single payer for Californians. As planned, Californian's could purchase their own insurance, but all would have to contribute to a state plan. Considering cost and the bureauracy of insurance companies, I doubt they could compete. Who would relish dealing with Insurance company bureauracy. Besides, you can't win anyway.
My question. In the US many states have the right of initiative to rescind public laws for a vote of the people. Can this be done in Canadian provinces? Might someone consider this in Alberta?
It was put up to a vote in California( single payer.) But the insurance companies put up $100 million to bamboozle voters. Progessive voters are trying again.
As years add up and more voters become uninsured , maybe there is hope. Yet , alone the hopelessness of getting insurance companies to cover many procedures. thanks for links on Tommy Douglas.
and yes. TO Texans, Oklahomans are in the back country. Texans often make sexuallym explicit jokes about the reasons for Oklahoma's panhandle. maybe, Calgary does have the cosmopolitan atmosphere of Houston.? sorry.

[cyclezealot]

210. About Tommy Douglas.

Thanks again..My question. Forgeting Canadian history. What was the October 1970 crisis and the War Powers Act. THose prairie populists. Sure do miss them. US history has a similiar pattern. North Dakota , at once was considered a most radical of states. IT had a socialist party, too.
Farmers were screwed by the robber barrons. Think similiar history occured in Canada?
When will people ever learn. Proud of Tommy Douglas.
Latest US runner up to TOmmy DOuglas. Guess, Paul Wellstone. MN sort of a prairie state.

[Pooka Fey]

209. I was in Paris for 2 weeks this winter

and all I could think was, "How come there's no homeless people???". My friend said, "yeah they're here, we have 'em" -- but when I finally realized who he was talking about I could see why they were invisible to my eyes earlier. They're so damn well-fed and healthy looking, that I couldn't tell they were living on the street. The French send out vans every night that park in populated areas and hand out dinner, blankets, and medical care to anyone who is living on the street. Damn frogs, my ass.

On edit: Oh and I forgot - when it's ass cold outside like it has been - those vans go out looking for any homeless and bring them to a shelter so they won't freeze to death. The couple of people that froze to death in the latest cold snap were so crazy that they refused to allow the rescue teams to take them to shelters, and that's the only reason why they died.

[jamesinca]

117. God forbid we act like the French. nt.

[lildreamer316]

164. Yep. Anyone remember that Layfayette feller?

Didn't help us one bit; did he?:sarcasm:
And that horrible Statue of Liberty....we really haven't used that.Not at all.:eyes:

[Virginia Dare]

170. If it weren't for the frogs...

we'd be taking tea in the afternoon and singing God Save The Queen!

[RaleighNCDUer]

216. Well, I'd be taking tea in the afternoon, and agitating to have

'God' taken out of "God Save the Queen".

[JackRiddler]

4. correct...

In all those social welfare countries, the mortality rate is still an absolute 100 percent. Everyone dies. And never mind that the average lifespans in nearly all of these countries are longer, because...

In the USA we're going to have eternal life, soon, for all who can afford it. Madonna and Bill Gates will still be plaguing future generations 10,000 years from now, if you believe certain scientists. Oh dear.

[Yollam]

6. That's true.

I saw it on Futurama.

[Bozita]

5. Excellent!

recommended

[calmblueocean]

7. The reason we don't have universal healthcare is..

... that conservatives believe there must be winners and losers in the game of life. We are not "all in this together" to the conservative. It's every man, woman, and child for himself. The winners win because they are good and deserve to; the losers lose because they are bad and deserve what they get as well. Conservatives *need* others to lose in order to feel like winners.

To these people, it hardly matters how good the arguments you make for universal health care. They aren't interested in covering everyone. That's a *negative* to them. They hate universal health care precisely because it does cover everyone.

I don't know the solution, but that's my experience.

[cyberia]

15. That's why they hate social security, too. n/t

[TaleWgnDg]

175. There's self-interest in the Republican rationale. And that

.

There's self-interest in the Republican rationale. And that self-interest is corporations. Corporations as middlemen in the healthcare delivery system of America! Are you aware that America has the most expensive healthcare delivery system on the planet? Yup. We do. And, now those very corporations are taking their dibs in Medicare prescription medications for seniors. Imagine that.

You are correct. That's why Republicans do not like Social Security. Because the corporations cannot take a slice out of it, and blame Franklin Delano Roosevelt for it. The neo-cons are not beyong touching that "third rail" that has been the cry of not touching Social Security for decades.



Healthcare in America = splitting the pie amongst corporations
.

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mark11727]

27. Whoa ---

--- as much much as I truly wouldn't mind seeing some negative karma heaped on O'Reilly, DeLay, Cheney, Rove, Coulter, Hannity, Limbaugh, and the rest of the VRWC --- sending Folks We Don't Like to the block sets a baaaad precedent. It's a Golden Rule sort of thing.

As progressives, we're above that.

Just barely, but there you are.

[guruoo]

212. Won't be progressives, per se....

it will primarily be the far right koolaid drinkers waking up to betrayals
perpetrated by their own ideological keepers.

[Fovea]

46. The solution

Start destroying the 'winners.'

[John Czerepak]

68. universal health care

Pretty much right on the money. They do have to bring someone else down so that they can feel good.

[dwp6577]

113. very well articulated calmblueocean...

"conservatives believe there must be winners and losers in the game of life"

That sums up the conservative philosophy...

Tack on lying, religion hijacking, war-mongering and law-breaking and you've got neocon...

[Sparkman]

157. same with univrsal sufferage and ban on income tax...favors established

rich donors to the GeeOhPee
Anybody taking bets on draft lottery timeline?

[The_Casual_Observer]

8. A worker might be able to put $500/year in that account!

After 20 years that's about $4000 if they let you invest it in the stock market!

[RoyGBiv]

10. Oh, you almost had me going ...

You're right. Doesn't work. Not profitable. Just leads to a healthier population.

Bravo.

:toast:

[hvn_nbr_2]

20. Yeah, had me going at first too.

After the spocksmen cazy woman sempithy thread earlier, I was thinking "Oh, f***, not another one!"

[leftstreet]

11. Ted Kennedy wants Medicare For All

but the corporate media can't mention his name without the history channel running 24/7 stories on Chappaquiddick.
:eyes:

http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0112-37.htm

Sadly, in America today, the miracles of modern medicine are too often the province only of the wealthy. We need a new guarantee for the years ahead that the cost of these life-saving treatments and cures will not be beyond the reach of the vast majority of the American people.

An essential part of our progressive vision is an America where no citizen of any age fears the cost of health care, and no employer refuses to create new jobs or cuts back on current jobs because of the high cost of providing health insurance.

The answer is Medicare, whose 40th birthday we will celebrate in July. I propose that as a 40th birthday gift to the American people, we expand Medicare over the next decade to cover every citizen - from birth to the end of life.

It's no secret that America is still dearly in love with Medicare. Administrative costs are low. Patients' satisfaction is high. Unlike with many private insurers, they can still choose their doctor and their hospital.

For those who prefer private insurance, we will offer comparable coverage under the same range of private insurance plans already available to Congress. I can think of nothing more cynical or hypocritical than a Member of Congress who gives a speech denouncing health care for all, then goes to his doctor for a visit paid for by the Federal Employees Health Benefit Plan.

I call this approach Medicare for All, because it will free all Americans from the fear of crippling medical expenses and enable them to seek the best possible care when illness strikes.

The battle to achieve Medicare for All will not be easy. Powerful interests will strongly oppose it, because they profit immensely from the status quo. Right wing forces will unleash false attack ads ranting against socialized medicine and government-run health care.

But those attacks are a generation out of date - retreads of the failed campaign that delayed Medicare in the 1950s and 1960s. Today, we are immunized against such attacks by the obvious success of Medicare. It is long past time to extend that success to all.

[mark11727]

12. IIRC --- Clinton tried to introduce something like this in '92...

...the health insurance industry, the pharmaceutical industry, and even the media were all over this like flies on poo.

Just think, we COULD have had a thirteen-year jump on this.

[ProudDad]

18. In the interest of historical accuracy

As I remember it, the "health care" industry was one of Clinton's major contributors. They essentially WROTE Bill and Hillary's health care proposal.

And the media was STILL all over it like flies on poo since they are owned by the party that got beat by "health care" money.

[mark11727]

26. Thanks for the correction ----

I wish it were possible for ANYONE to be able to craft a sensible policy on ANYTHING (health care, energy, media, etc) and NOT be beholden to industry $$$$ ---

[Lydia Leftcoast]

35. Exactly right--for the umpty-ninth time, what the Clintons proposed

was NOT the kind of universal health care that other countries enjoyed. It was written under the guidance of the insurance and drug companies, was tremendously complicated, and introduced such concepts as "managed care" (i.e. everything has to be approved by some non medically educated clerk with a chart who understands that his/her job is to find excuses to deny as much coverage as possible) to the American English vocabulary.

I visited a rehab hospital in Japan that is connected with a health sciences university where one of my friends teaches. The hospital was state of the art, and the patients had comfortable private rooms that they were encouraged to decorate and personalize. I asked who paid for all of it, and my friend explained that the patients were all so severely disabled by accidents or strokes or something that they fell under the government's catastrophic care provisions and didn't have to pay anything.

Oh, by the way, this kind of medical care has been instituted under Japan's ostensibly "conservative" long-time majority party.

[Yollam]

36. Yes, and sick people are actually allowed to (gasp)... CONVALESCE!

My elderly father in law was hospitalized last month (yes, in a brand-new, state-of-the-art hospital) so that he could have a round of radiation treatments for throat cancer. He was in the hospital for SIX WEEKS.

I guarantee you that that course of treatment would have been done on an outpatient basis here in the US, or they would hospitalize him for 3 days then kick his ass out.

[FlaGranny]

50. My sister fell down some steps

and broke both ankles. She spent a week in the hospital, had surgery, and was sent to a nursing home for a week or two. Then she was sent home almost totally unable to take care of herself and without help. She's 80 years old and lives with a man who recently had a stroke. So great is the care in the good old USA.

[Yollam]

52. I'm sorry to hear that.

I had to take care of my incapacitated grandma for several weeks as a teenager. As hard as that was, I can only imagine what it might be like on a long-term basis, especially if you're dealing with health issues yourself. I hope she feels better.

[FlaGranny]

54. Thanks.

In a just society, it wouldn't happen that way. She couldn't wait to get out of the nursing home because it was worse than going home without help. She feels okay, but is mostly helpless to do a thing.

[MountainLaurel]

137. Another travesty of American health care

My husband was conversing once with a former who was on fellowship from one of the Scandinavian countries. He was relating to my husband how glad he was that he didn't have to worry about his mother, who was elderly, because she was in a great nursing home being paid for by the country for the most part, and commenting on how horrible it is that so many American families have to kill themselves financially to get their parents and elderly family members the care they need.

[Maestro]

107. I had cancer surgery and was out the door the next morning.

No kidding! It was major surgery too. The only saving grace was that my doctor was wonderful!

[DSperoRN]

116. Quick discharge from hospital is not always bad

Hospitals are dangerous places. They're full of nasty germs and the potential for horrible medical mistakes. It's usually best to get out of there as soon as possible, AS LONG AS YOU HAVE ENOUGH SUPPORT AT HOME!
I should know - I've worked in them for decades.
David

[Maestro]

165. You have a point.

But man I was not well to go home but I did have support.

[Bozita]

13. Betting healthcare execs in those countries don't have private jets...

... and eight figure salaries.

Guess who pays for that shit.

[cyberia]

17. The healthcare execs are civil servants.

[NMMNG]

19. Blasphemer!!!

;-)

Welcome to DU, btw. :hi:

[ClayZ]

21. Great Post!

[rucky]

22. How are rich people supposed to feel special...

if everybody is treated the same?

[rman]

23. many repubs want nationalized health care

Problem is they don't know their representatives are against it.

Going by what the MSM portrays as public opinion on the matter, the majority of Americans is communist.

case in point:

"Red State Road Trip"
www.truthout.org/multimedia.htm

[Telly Savalas]

64. In other words, advocacy of national health care would be "pragmatic"

Too bad the more conservative elements of the Democratic party are more concerned with foisting their lifeless ideology on us than trying to win elections.

[rman]

82. "pragmatic" - depends on the goal

If you want a healthy, educated population, then nationalized health care and education is pragmatic.

If you want a wealthy powerful few to become more powerful and wealthy, then privitizing everything is pragmatic.

[w8liftinglady]

24. wow-dental care is needed as badly as health care

that would be great if they had a system like that here.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

25. In fairness to rightwingers:

which is something you won't often hear...

I think most opposition to nationalised healthcare in the US isn't based on desire to protect the profits of the medical industry. It's based on fear of the state. A lot of right-wingers seem to believe that "private good, public bad" - they seem to believe that the magic powers of Competition mean that any service can be provided more efficiently privately than publically.

This doesn't strike me as a *completely* absurd belief, but the relative qualities and costs of healthcare in western Europe, Japan, Canada, NZ etc and in the US, and - arguably more strikingly - the dramatic failure of the "public/private partnership" hospital projects here in the UK mean that you have to be fairly willing to discount the available evidence to believe it, I think.

It seems fairly clear that the benefit in improved healthcare for the poor is more than worth the reduction in growth of an economy caused by raising taxes enough to make healthcare free at point of use. Trying to deny this is foolish. However, I don't think most people who do so do so for corrupt motives.

[Yollam]

37. Also, the raising of taxes would be offset by massive savings...

...to people who are presently in the gouging HMO and other health plans. That is assuming we would have a model like Japan's, without all the built in waste inherent to the present US system.

[hopeisaplace]

44. Canada speaking here: lol - One of World's Leading G8 Nations -

Currently running approximately a $9 Billion dollar surplus
(under Liberal Leadership for 13 years)

Just now have a New Conservative Minority Government elected *damn*
Under previous Conservative Government we were left with a $43 Billion dollar DEFICIT.

All Canadian people have health care coverage under both types of "money management".

Perhaps it's not the money we have, it's how our governments MIS-MANAGE IT.



By the way, as I've posted in other threads,
Mother of 4 here.
Had 4 babies, 2 surgery's. Never a problem,
and in my case didn't have to wait for surgery's.
I go to the doctor's office, take the kids, whatever...Invoice $0.

[Bridget Burke]

49. A guy from the Heritage Society was talking up distruct of government...

As the reason The People Don't Want Nationalized Healthcare. That was on CBS news--at least they identified him as a "conservative." The reason sounds good.

But political donations from HMO's, insurance companies & big pharm were not mentioned.

[cyberia]

79. Reduction in growth of an economy?

How so? As you point out, the per capita cost of delivering health care under national health systems is "strikingly" less than in the US system. That said, liberating misspent funds spent on health care should give a boost to the economy. There is no difference in paying for the service through taxes rather than through private insurance and out of pocket, except that you pay less in the former case.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

81. Hmm.

I'm not an expert on economics, so this may well be complete bullshit, but I *think*
that an (explicit) tax on high earners, which is what nationalised healthcare would entail, slows wealth creation more than an (implicit) less progressive tax, which is what making everyone pay for their own health care essentially is.

Isn't it standard economic doctrine that the more progressive the (combined implicit and explicit) the taxation system is, the less benefit from earning more money there is, and so the slower the economy goes? Although I think there's also a counteracting effect which is that the more evenly distributed the wealth is (i.e. the more progressive the taxation system) the more consumption you're going to get, and so the more growth (10 men with 10 pounds buy more than one man with 91 and 9 with 1), but I think that's usually held to be less powerful?

This is one of the reasons why (I think, although I'm in no way putting myself forwards as an informed opinion), even though a system of taxation more progressive than the current one is clearly desirable, and one more progressive than that more desirable still, it doesn't hold true in the limit - a system where all income up to a certain level and confiscates all above that, which is the most progressive possible, isn't desirable.

So nationalised healthcare would slow the economy more than private does, I think, precisely *because* it's more equitable; the same is true of any other attempt to reduce the wealth gap. It's a trade-off that's well worth making, but (assuming I'm not talking nonsense) it needs to be acknowledged that the cons are there as well as the pros.

Is there anyone with a degree in economics who can confirm/deny that, preferably with an explanation as to why it is/isn't right?


Note: cyberia, this isn't an attempt to teach you ecomics (because I don't understand it myself), so much as an attempt to try and work through the problem for my own benefit, so please forgive the slightly patronising tone - I'm imagining myself trying to explain it to a child, because I find that's usually a good way of testing ones understanding.

[cyberia]

83. Hmmm redux

The Swedish economy, which is quite vigorous and has about the highest rate of taxation in the world, seems to be a counterexample to your explanation.

If I'm not mistaken, Social Security is also a counter example. Providing pensions is not so much a humanitarian exercise as it is an economic stimulus. By putting funds in the hands of retired folks who would otherwise live in poverty, they are transformed into consumers.

Quite frankly, I have trouble understanding why taxation should cause economic problems unless the taxes are withdrawn from the economy. If they are recycled into spending, which is the case, AFAIK, they should be economically neutral, if not beneficial.

[DSperoRN]

120. I'm afraid this isn't right at all

I'm not an economist either. But I think you are repeating some highly skewed analysis here. Taking from the rich and giving to the poor is the most basic, most reliable way of strengthening an economy. As you said -- 10 people with 100 pounds each will spend more than 1 person with 1000.

Taxing the rich to pay for health care is slightly different. There, you're not giving to the poor, but to health care providers. This is still a big economic boost IF the care actually helps make people healthy. Healthy people produce more, earn more, and can therefore buy more.

But the big economic point is that THE CURRENT SYSTEM IS KILLING AMERICAN COMPANIES. Medical insurance costs make them uncompetitive with companies in places with socialized health care. This is madness.
David Spero
author of The Truth about Diabetes: Who gets it? Who profits? How to Stop It.

[xkenx]

140. A generation ago, marginal tax rates for high earners was over 70%,

and it did not keep enterpreneurs from forming, then expanding businesses, and working very hard to accomplish their goals. People who create wealth, jobs, etc. don't calculate their marginal tax rates and quit when their taxes get too high, they just push on. Government is needed to provide a range of services and regulate infrastructure. The money comes from tax revenues. When the tax revenues get too regressive (or less progressive), you get the situation like we have with corporate execs. making many times more than ordinary workers than they used to, systems like healthcare become a shambles, and we head towards being like the country where the (few) really wealthy live behind gates, travel with armed guards, and the rest struggle. I can't believe we the people could allow it to get like that. All this talk from the Rethugs about "We can't raise taxes on the wealthy," neglects to mention that a tax change is needed to correct the mistake made in King George's early reign of giving the wealthiest 2% a tax cut they didn't need, with moneys sorely needed to pay for services and then his misadventure in Iraq. And to think he argued out of both sides of his mouth that, first we needed the tax cut to give back some of the surplus (Bill Clinton gave us), then we needed to keep the tax cut to overcome the deficits (he gave us). Which way is it? Give me a f*****g break!

[dh1760]

105. I'm sorry, but raising taxes is NOT the answer ...

... if you're talking about personal income taxes. Our taxes are already too damn high. As it is, the government takes 40% of my pay, plus FICA which I will never see back in anywhere near the quantities that I've fed in for the past 30 years.

Between the ridiculously high personal taxes that we pay and the ridiculously low taxes that corporations pay, there is more than enough to finance universal health-care, reasonable economic assistance for low income citizens, and a robust defense of our country. If the government would grow some balls and outlaw the mechanisms that corporate America uses to influence Congress, we might even see a revamped tax code that sets a reasonable corporate tax rate and fair personal tax rate, and we'd STILL be able to finance all of the above.

The problem, in a nutshell, is waste, greed, and incompetence, and all of it with a single label: government. Remove a few dozen layers of bureaucracy, a few hundred hands in the pie, and a few thousand sit-on-their-asses managers and clerical do-nothings, and our taxes would go a hell of a lot further than they do now.

Given the prevailing government operating model, if you increase taxes, all you do is enable them to add more layers of waste to our already over-bloated, under-performing government. You'd get about 10 cents of added service for every dollar you pour in.

Just my two-cents, and probably not even worth that.

[Ikonoklast]

108. I'm not sure that taxes would have to be raised

If every employer and worker paid into a national healthcare system, and that money was dedicated for that use, the net expenditures may be equal to the savings generated from not paying into a private plan.

The so-called do-nothing people that run Medicare for the government do it very efficiently. IIRC, there is less than 4% in overhead to administer the plan, as opposed to the for-profit healthcare providers that have 30-40% of their total costs devoted to overhead.

There will be a single-payer system in this country one day for the simple reason that our health care system is broke, unless you got the money. Less and less people everyday have that money, and employers also are getting killed by insurance premiums. I know, I am one.


If you are looking for real waste in government spending, look to military contracts. The waste and fraud is staggering.

[dh1760]

129. My comments about raising taxes were directed at the OP ...

line "... the benefit in improved health-care for the poor is more than worth the reduction in growth of an economy caused by raising taxes enough to make health-care free at point of use.".

Frankly, any talk of raising taxes gets me going; I firmly believe that our government is way too big and costs taxpayers way too much money for the services that get delivered. I have absolutely no problem with providing services that will make life more livable and more comfortable for every American. I have a BIG problem with throwing good money after bad.

I couldn't agree more that the military contract system is obscenely wasteful. But, that's hardly the only villain. FEMA has a tremendous budget and a huge staff, but couldn't figure out the first move on Katrina. TSA was given hundreds of millions of dollars and a mandate, but we still don't have the level of airport security that Israel has had for a decade, or more.

FWIW, I didn't mean to malign the people in the trenches. It's the people at the top, with the fingers on the purse-strings, who perpetuate the culture of greed and waste.

[Ikonoklast]

132. Gotcha

I, too, would like to see how a national heath-care program would impact the economy. Would it free up capital for employers to re-invest in their businesses? Would it leave more money in the hands of consumers? What about health-care professionals, would it leave them with more time for patient care because of the huge decrease in paperwork?

There are a lot of unseen benefits that would come into play here. I would like to see an unbiased comparison or economic projection of a hypothetical national health-care system aginst what we have now. Might open up a few eyes.

[OzarkDem]

206. If the government is getting 40% of your income

You need to get an accountant. You're getting ripped off. No one's taxes are that high.

[Joe Chi Minh]

141. Of course they're too high, because it is heavily skewed

against the middle class, (against the poorest earners, it goes without saying).

The richest individuals and corporatins are paying peanuts now, compared to the post-war decades. Two factors, doubtless among many others, contributed to Japan's growth into an economic giant - the first, substantially. That was McArthur's imposition of an extraordinarily low ceiling relating to the maximum multiple of the wage of lowest paid worker in a business - not even the median worker, I believe - on the income a CEO could receive.

The other was alluded to rather wrily by an American business consultant: the ethos of the company should be one of cooperation and mutual aid, instead of one feral competition. I can't remember the old boy's name now, but he said, it wasn't politically feasible in the US to promote that principle.

[domlaw]

184. raising taxes is NOT the answer

Nope raising taxes is not the answer. I pay 21% of my income for which I get

$7.00 a day daycare
Full medical coverage (for free)
Dental care for my kid (free) until 12

BTW I live in Commie Quebec

[CAcyclist]

119. When 77-80% of the US population *wants*

universal health care,your argument doesn't fly.

[Joz]

121. Thats exactly what they think, and for good reason..

I used to be a repub, and being a repub you usually hate and distrust the government, you are taught that the government sucks horribly compared to the private sector. I mean if you were welcomed to america a fresh and told this, you'd have complete backup for this argument for real life. Have you been to the DMV lately???? HORRIBLE, SLOW, LOW QUALITY, UNFRIENDLY service. How about the post office? I love standing in line for a half hour to send out packages or pick up held mail. Government services are terrible, aren't they? I mean thats how I always felt, it's only recently and after switching over to a dem that it hit me: Maybe these services all suck... because they are underfunded??

People fear gov health care because they think it will be a shitty as these other services, and can you really blame them? The United States and many state governments provide really horrible service.

Plus you've got the fear of corruption. You know, those reports that they spent $8,000 on a lamp for the white house. If the gov runs everybody's health and corrupts it, everone will suffer, as opposed to if one health insurance company is corrupt, you can switch to another one.

Thats not MY argument, thats what THEY think. *I* am currently in limbo, seemingly all health insurance companies are corrupt right now. I don't know if I want gov health care (except for minors and elders perhaps), I'm not for socialism in America. I would like to see serious government regulation/crackdown over the health industry though.

[RaleighNCDUer]

217. That's why there is a GAO.

An entire bureaucracy devoted to finding waste and mismangment in government spending.

If the GAO is allowed to do its job, and if congress would act on the GAOs recommendations, most of the government inefficiencies could be addressed. But how is the GAO funded and supported by repub administrations?

[raccoon]

223. Then, what do you suggest for the rest of the US population?

"I don't know if I want gov health care (except for minors and elders perhaps), "

Lots of employers don't offer group health insurance to their employees.

Individual health policies are very expensive, IF you can get one. Some people can't because of pre-existing health conditions.

Sometimes you can get the individual health insurance, but the policy will not cover pre-existing conditions you have.

So what's a person to do?

[Joe Chi Minh]

138. I have to differ with you there. There is a lack of imagination that

is wholly sinful and culpable, and I'm convinced that it applies where other people's health is not any kind of priority, indeed a matter of indifference.

They would be the first to run squealing to the doctor or dentist, when their own health is in jeopardy, yet essentially "don't want to know" about other people's problems (still less catastrophes). An endemic, indeed defining attitude of indifference to the pain and suffering of others, implicit in Conservatism. There can be no excuse.

[rodeodance]

28. as long as we have congresspersons with FULL coverage there is

little chance of anything called 'universal" being passed.

[Telly Savalas]

65. Congresspersons shouldn't have any coverage until everyone else does.

If 47 million Americans don't deserve health coverage, then those shameless fucks on Capital Hill sure as hell don't either.

[Apollo11]

29. Conservatives* also support free healthcare for all

The Conservative Party of Great Britain, the people who brought us Margaret Thatcher, recently elected a new leader called David Cameron, who many see as the next Prime Minister of the United Kingdon.

Wanna know what he has to say about universal healthcare provision, funded by the state?

This from BBC News, January 4th, 2006:

Cameron vows to defend 'free' NHS (National Health Service)

David Cameron has unveiled changes to his party's stance on healthcare which he hopes will persuade the public the NHS is safe in Conservative hands.
Mr Cameron ditched the previous policy of subsidising patients to go private and criticised Margaret Thatcher's tax breaks for private medical insurance.
In his first big policy speech since becoming leader he said he wanted the NHS to be free for all.
Mr Cameron told the King's Fund think tank in London he had probably spent more time in NHS hospitals than almost any politician in recent years because he had a disabled son.
He wanted to remove any doubt about the Conservatives' commitment to the NHS.
Mr Cameron, who was in charge of drawing up the last Tory election manifesto, said he was dropping the party's "patients' passport" plan.
The scheme allowed patients to use half the cost of their NHS operation to be treated privately.
But Mr Cameron said it was wrong to use taxpayers' money to encourage the better-off to opt out of the health service: the NHS should not be something charitable or demeaning.
The Conservatives wanted to change the NHS into a more efficient, more effective and more patient-centred service, he argued.
"Other people - some of them in my own party - urge me to go much further," he said.
"They want me to promise that, under the Conservatives, the NHS will be transformed beyond recognition into a system based on medical insurance.
"I will never go down that route. Under a Conservative government, the NHS will remain free at the point of need and available to everyone, regardless of how much money they have in the bank."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/4578440.stm

[Joe Chi Minh]

143. Why he sounds just like Blair used to. What a Socialist firebrand

he was! It warmed your heart to heart just to listen to his stirring tirades against the Tories...

If you believe Cameron, you must be very unworldly and apolitically-minded. Cameron was even overheard telling a Tory colleague that he'd be another Thatcher. Mandelson said listening to Cameron, you'd have thought it was Blair before he took office. Actually, he quoted a date. Read the blog item, below:

http://www.nickcohen.net/?p=38

[OnionPatch]

30. I had an experience in Canada

I was there on vacation when I broke my nose in an auto accident. We went to the nearest clinic. I walked right in and the waiting room was virtually empty although there were a few patients in the treatment rooms. The staff crowded around me and went to work ASAP. I was given treatment, medicine, bandages, etc. by the kindest people I've encountered in medicine for a long time.

Oh and my Canadian friends were happily bragging about how much they LOVE their healthcare system.

I would have waited an hour in the waiting room with 30 sick people if I had been home and had gone to my PPO provider. And the staff would have been surly and treated me like a head of cattle.

[Thirtieschild]

32. And you even get house calls

Our daughter lives in the UK (married a Brit) and during a particularly painful illness, the doctor actually came to the house. Last time we had a housecall was 1961 in NOLA, husband had pneumonia. Ah, progress.

[cyberia]

38. Our pediatrician

in France regularly makes house calls. She doesn't want the little ones to go outside with a fever.

Not only that, you can call a central number with your complaint and a doctor will come to your house, if the screener thinks that the case merits it.

[ArmchairMeme]

92. Healthcare France

I met a man in France who was being treated for a brain tumor. The healthcare system provided transportation to and from his rural home for every treatment. He was doing very well when I met him.

The system in the U.S. meant that when I was sick with Pneumonia I waited in the emergency room waiting room along with other sick people for 8 hours. After paying a premium of $454, co-pay of $20 and $100 for E.R., and $20 for meds I did recover but slowly.

I certainly would prefer the treatment that I see happening in other countries.

[cyclezealot]

160. While my wife was visiting Rouen , France

one of her exchange students had an emergency on a suburban street. Injury. Paramedics were called to the site of the accident. Treated her there in the street and gave her advice as to needed treatment. As an emergency , no cost.
My wife once broke an arm in nearby Spain. Had therapy after the cast was removed, along with cast removal. Cost $5 as a foreigner. Included an x ray which cost $5 also. Would have been at no cost if a national.

[samhsarah]

33. Great post! K&R!

[slide to the left]

34. no joke

I have 2 torn discs in my neck and have to wait for treatment because they have to verify my insurance. What BS. I have the best healthcare $$ can buy bc my DH (dear husband) works for the Fed. I am in astonishing amounts of pain and can't get help. Even Dr's want it universal now since they have to work with 70+ insurance companies.

[druidity33]

214. write to Michael Moore...

He just put out a call for people to write/record testimonials about poor treatment by their HMOs for his new movie... i think it's called "sicko". I think it's on the Huffington Post, though you could google Moore and sicko and you'd probably get the link. Fan of Moore or not, his shows The Awful Truth and and mmmmmm can't remember... "something"TV, both canceled because they were too righteous. Good luck with your HMO. As for me, i'm one of the 45 million without Health Care....

[RaleighNCDUer]

218. Michael Moore and sicko.

Won't the freepers be surprised by what they get.

[Douglas Carpenter]

39. good thing I stopped and actually read your OP

you had me all riled their for a minute

[bikebloke]

40. A system feared in the rest of the world

I was in New Zealand when some rightwing politiko was calling for health care reforms. Kiwis have a system like Europe's. The opposition held up the amerikan system as an scary example of what would happen. Folk didn't care for that change.

Friends in Europe are horrified of the amerikan system of predatory capitalistic health care. One of the things that swayed me to want to emigrate. Sometimes, I regret not marrying one of the chicas that made me offers over there.



***And with this post, I finally reach the Mille High Club after all these years.

[Yollam]

42. Yes, it really is the absolute worst.

Who cares if zillionaires can get their worthless carcasses frozen until a technique is developed to graft their head onto some unlucky homeless guy's body, or get a Jarvik 12 robot heart put in if the most of us either can't afford any coverage, or get lousy coverage from HMOs that keep gouging us?

[wakeme2008]

41. I am think someday of moving to New Zealand and

I read this from a piece http://www.escapeartist.com/efam/69/Living_In_New_Zealand.html

Why? You don’t have to have health insurance! Visitors and locals alike are given health care when they need it. Every man woman and child can see a doctor…of their choice…at any time without having to give up their aunt’s inheritance. In our experience a visit to the doctor costs about half of that in the U.S. and best of all they don’t attempt to see six patients per minute. Sandy’s father and his wife recently came to stay with us for a week and during that time his hip began acting up. He’s a very healthy guy for 79, but we wanted to make sure things were going to be okay on his 18 hour flight back home. We went in to the nearby medical office and asked if he could see a doctor. “Sure!” the nice lady behind the desk said. “But you’ll have to come back later.” “Sure!” we’re thinking…like next year? No. She told us to please come back in about an hour. We returned after a nice lunch. We sat down in the waiting room while he filled out all of the paperwork…one page asking a few basic questions. He went in to see the doctor about ten minutes later. He was back out in another 15. It was nothing serious that a little lumbar support cushion wouldn’t cure. Total cost? NZ$45.

And the problem with this picture is....... :grr:

[RaleighNCDUer]

219. One reason why LOTR and other epic films being made in NZ?

The health insurance in the states would be prohibative dealing with a cast and crew of thousands. We pump millions into their economy, and the studios know their people will be taken care of at minimal expense.

Works out well all around.

[underpants]

43. Thank you Yollam

This is a thread I started on Monday about the Canadian system. I am learning so much from all of you.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=2424233

[savemefromdumbya]

45. Who wants a health system free a the point of use with treatment guarantee

[RB TexLa]

56. Don't you mean "treatment payment guarantee"?

An HMO does not tell a doctor what they can not do, they tell them what they are and are not going to pay for. Yes there are horror stories but there are also stories where the "egghead telling me how to practice medicine" is doing their job.

Two fathers with 8 year old girls go to doctors with runny noses. Both are treated, both recover from the sniffles. Both fathers pay out a $25 or $30 co-pay. Now skip down the road, both leave their jobs with employer based health plans for whatever reason. When they apply for individual policies ones flys through underwriting the other gets a rider based on the MIB report. Medical Information Bureau, a credit report type clearinghouse of medical information for the insurance business. What is her MIB problem? Ahhh, she has been treated for ASTHMA! And they want to rate her up for it. Now the father has never been told his daughter has asthma and she has never been treated for it. This is where many find out they are wrong, she has been treated for asthma when she had a runny nose. The HMO pays say $50 to the doctor for treating someone with a cold but pays $120 for treating someone with asthma. Ever wonder why the form at the doctor's office asks how long you have had your insurance? How long you have been employed at your current job? If you have been working somewhere for 15 years you are probably going to stay on group insurance coverage and their "stealing" from the insurance company is going to be factored in the cost over many people and will never be noticed by you. Well noticed as everyone does, but not noticed as to what the doctor did, unless you leave your job and apply for an individual policy.

The doctor's office has no other need to know how long you have been at your job or how long your insurance has been in force. All they need regarding it is the name of the company, the certificate or policy number and your name. The insurance company is going to provide all the information to them they need to know. I use a HSA and a very high deductible individual policy along with catastrophic supplemental policies and when I have something minor that I can't get to a family member or friend who is a MD and can take care of it with samples and off the books, I pay cash I give them my name, my blood type tell them I have no known drug allergies and that's it.

[Indy Lurker]

47. something to think about

I think our healthcare costs are also higher because of our lifestyle.

According to nationmaster.com

Obesity rate by country:

United States 31% <--- The stat for the US came from Google.
#1 Slovakia 22.4%
#2 United Kingdom 22%
#3 Czech Republic 14.8%
#4 Iceland 12.4%
#5 Finland 11.8%
#6 Sweden 10.4%
#7 Netherlands 10%
#8 France 9.4%
#9 Norway 8.3%
#10 Switzerland 7.7%
#11 Japan 3.6%



Physician visits per year:

#1 Japan 14.4 per person per year
#2 United States 8.9 per person per year
#3 Belgium 7.9 per person per year
#4 France 6.9 per person per year
#5 Austria 6.7 per person per year
#6 Germany 6.5 per person per year
#7 Australia 6.3 per person per year
#8 Canada 6.3 per person per year
#9 Denmark 6.1 per person per year
#10 Italy 6.1 per person per year
#11 Netherlands 5.9 per person per year
#12 United Kingdom 4.9 per person per year
#13 New Zealand 4.4 per person per year
#14 Finland 4.3 per person per year
#15 Sweden 2.8 per person per year

[aintitfunny]

84. This does not account for the extreme health care

spending difference. USA is high on the # of doctor visits because the doctors schedule unnecessary visits - they make money on them. My doctor would have me come in every 3 months if I allowed it. I recently went to a dermatologist who diagnosed Eczema - which you really can't do anything for. He prescribed an ointment (that cost me $50.00 and the insurance company $80.00).

During the visit I asked if this was something my internist could prescribe in the future and he said, no need, I should come back and see him in six months to "see how your doing". So he tells me it is a recurring condition that may be treated and not cured - so what does he need to see me for? $30.00 copay on that. I am canceling the appointment. I see no point in him getting my money or the insurance money. He schedules 3 patients for every 15 minutes. I waited 30 minutes to see him for 3.

The problems with our health care costs are simple:

1. greed
2. insurance companies
3. drug companies
4. lawmakers who could give a shit
5. republicans

Not necessarily in that order.

I would agree that lifestyle is a factor, I just don't think it is a huge factor.

[DSperoRN]

123. Medical system also encourages unhealthy behaviors

It's true that American's poor state of health is a big piece of our medical costs. We have a profoundly unhealthy society -- high in stress and sugar, low in social support, opportunities to move or to feel good about ourselves. But medicine does contribute to the problem.

Since most med systems get paid when you get sick, very little is done to encourage you to stay healthy. This is not the main reason why Americans are so sick -- the inequalities, stresses and materialism of our society play bigger roles. But it's a piece.

David Spero RN
Author of
The Truth About Diabetes: Who gets it? Who profits? How to Stop It

[flaminbats]

207. I agree..we have a predatory health-care system!

it takes your money, does nothing to prevent illness, and then feeds on those who lived a healthy lifestyle..yet still get diabetes, cancer, or some other chronic medical problem.

Those who care most about staying healthy unexpectedly get problems like juvenile diabetes, while those who live on luxury and have extremely unhealthy lifestyles..also feel free to let those with expensive health-care problems fend for themselves!

As I mentioned in an earlier post our doctors, insurance companies, and hospitals are at liberty to suck every drop of life from these suffering people who are the least able to pay. But those who are lucky, those who live recklessly and don't worry about such medical bills, owe something as well..especially if they expect only the best treatment when a medical problem eventually does hit them!

[Joe Chi Minh]

144. Actually, it's the other way round. The main cause of obesity is

actually the stress engendered by poverty. An American doctor wrote a marvellous, quite lengthy article on the subject - it was actually a speech, and was quoted in Common Dreams. It was not just poverty, on its own, but poverty in the context of other factors he described. A truly fascinating and heart-warming article.

Most young doctors do as brief a stint in the ER as possible, but he decided to spend his life working in them.

Incidentally, the phenomenon has grown enormously in the UK. Unsurprisingly.

[SlipperySlope]

48. Japanese health care reform

I believe the Japanese public/private insurance system was somewhat reformed in the past few years. Copayments for medical services are now 30% of the actual bill. This change was made to reduce the cost of the system.

Additional changes are expected as the population ages.

Just FYI - The system may not be as generous now as it was when you were there.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

51. Yes, prices are higher for routine care, but catastrophic care is still

fully funded. (I visited that hospital in 2002.)

[Joe Chi Minh]

146. There is a tendency for the powerful evil system of Capitalism

to drag down countries which aspire and endeavour to improve their society. I think robber-baron capitalism is in its death throes now and there will be a correction; hopefully permanent.

[Yollam]

53. So I've heard.

Although I believe the copays for the elderly were kept low. The government is now working on hiking that too. With Bush sycophant Koizumi in office, the trends do not look good. His number one priority has been privatizing the postal system. (And we know how that went here...)

[hunter]

88. The Japanese Postal System is mostly a bank.

When they talk about the Japanese Postal System they are nor really talking about mail. Instead they are talkinng about the largest bank in the world with $2.2 trillion dollars in deposits.

[Yollam]

115. True. Other countries have postal banks, too.

But if it ain't broke, why fix it. Seems to me that privatization mostly makes things worse.

[cyclezealot]

161. We are presently living near Perpignan , France.

La Poste is also a bank. Am told, French encouraged this to happen after La Poste became privitized. Other French banks have so many charges upon services. Supposedly more user friendly?
But, I hate having to get stamps and mail letters in long lines- when so many nationals are their making for a long line, while balancing their checking account.
Also, privitized post offices so efficient.? Why does not La Poste at least have Postal stamp vending machines- so those there for stamps, don't have to wait so long.

[TrogL]

55. The Canadian system is broken too!!

I became very weak at the office and eventually collapsed. Bystanders called an ambulance. I was taken to the hospital and given blood tests, cardiac tests, brain scans and X-rays. I was seen by at least three doctors and umpteen nurses. They also gave me lunch.

My total cost - $6.50 - the cost of a taxi ride back to the office. Apparently they would have paid for that too.

[cyberia]

80. Greek health care sucks, too!

While on vacation in Greece my kid fell and bonked his head pretty hard. He was woozy, so we took him to the village doctor, who sent us to the hospital for an examination. He got x-rays and the whole shebang. They kept him overnight for observation and fed us, as well, since we stayed in the ward with him. Next morning, he was as bright as a new dime, so they let us go. They wouldn't take a drachma for the care. "Don't worry about it, they said." This, BTW, was on a remote island, not in downtown Athens.

[AbbyR]

57. This one really hit home today...

My husband has been diagnosed with PLS (first cousin to ALS) and we have no idea what we are going to do. I have to work and won't be able to stay home with him when he has to be there, and we can't afford in-home health care or a nursing home. We are too rich for Medicaid and he's not old enough for Medicare. When he stops working - and he'll have to soon, his insurance is gone and I can't put him on mine - preexisting condition.

USA medical care sucks.

[Vinca]

62. I'm so sorry. It's horrible to be faced with such an illness and have

to worry about the medical bills. Can he get on social security disability? You might try calling your state's insurance commission to see if they have any ideas. In New Hampshire there's a state policy people with certain conditions can buy. That's the "up" side. The "down" side is that it costs the same horrendous amount as regular insurance. We don't qualify for it and couldn't afford it anyway. It's shameful citizens of this country have this problem.

[DSperoRN]

124. This isn't really a medical care problem

I'm sorry you and your husband are going through this. I kind of know what you mean, I have multiple sclerosis, which is a similar problem.

But it's not really a medical problem -- at this point, there is no medical treatment for PLS anyway. What you need is home care help and support -- which doesn't necessarily have to come through the medical system. But it's another example of the savagery of our system that this kind of help isn't paid for. It is paid for in other countries, in England, for example.

I hope his PLS doesn't get so bad that someone needs to be with him all the time. I have friends with PLS who still take care of themselvs after 20 years with the illness.

David Spero RN
Author of
The Art of Getting Well: maximizing health when you have a chronic illness (Hunter House 2002)

[senseandsensibility]

58. Sometimes at the end of a long day at work

I am very "humor" challlenged, and I actually got angry when I read your title. Soooo happy to be have been wrong and dense. I feel like sending this post to all my fundie relatives.

[Yollam]

59. Sorry...

Didn't mean to get your dander up!

:hi:

[Arkham House]

60. Why do you hate America?

[KT2000]

61. Hey - what's wrong with

cans at the cash registers for the cute children with cancer?? (Unattractive, sickly children do not garner as many quarters so it is hardly worth the effort)

What a nightmare it must be in Japan. A thirty minute wait??? At least we have a one day a week, twho hour clinic for the uninsured in my community. Congress just made sure emergency room visits will no longer be tolerated by the poor folks.

Just remember - health care costs are a big chunk of the Gross National Product - every new case of cancer is a celebration of a growing economy!!! No kidding - that is a fact.

[bobbieinok]

63. Christmas eve brother lectured me abt how bad Canada system is

all what 'his friends told him'....

[John Czerepak]

67. Universal Health Care

To me this should be number one on the Agenda. Our health care
delivery system in this country is a disgrace. Even some third
world countries like Cuba have better health care.

[Robeson]

69. Great Post!!! Nominated!....

...:applause:

[magellan]

70. I became very ill just before Christmas

The hospital was brilliant. 20 minute wait in the waiting room, a large part of which was taken up by paperwork and questions relating to my symptoms. ER staff fluttered around me until it was determined my appendix was ruptured. Straight up to surgery. I spent three days in recovery, private room, nurses and attendants in and out constantly. I wanted for nothing. Everyone treated me as if I was the hospital's only patient.

This was a county hospital in FL.

We chose it because we are uninsured, and were very pleasantly surprised by the quality of care.

Total bill: $26,000, give or take a few hundred.

We'll pay it all, but at our income level it will take 20 years.

It has occurred to me more than once since the bills arrived that it's not only unfair to us, it's unfair to the hospital as well. They rendered an excellent service -- they saved my life! But if they do this often enough for people like us, who have a hard time making ends meet before their medical emergency, something's got to give somewhere in their ability to maintain such high standards over the years.

The high cost of health insurance is not only killing people, it's got to be hurting hospitals too. And they don't deserve that any more than us uninsured folks.

[flaminbats]

74. the doctor's office is even more considerate..

More than an hour in the waiting room, the Doctor comes in to checkup on my cousin, he talks for one or two minutes..but tells him to pay a diabetes educator if he wants the answers to the questions. Then my cousin has his blood drawn, and he has to pay over $50 extra just to do that! If he doesn't visit the Doctor every three months, the Doctor will stop writing prescriptions for insulin and his other necessities! It must be nice to pay for taking shots just to stay alive. :grr:

When leaving, he asks if everything is covered in the check he wrote. They say yes, but a week later he gets a letter claiming he needs to pay more. He called the office, but only gets a message. He goes to the office again, but is told to come back later. Days later someone calls, and his expense is paid with the credit card..but after such crap from these bloodsuckers..my cousin deserves to be paid, not some do-nothing doctor who doesn't even answer the phone!

How many aging babyboomers and uninsured children will go into debt while suffering before we finally get universal healthcare? How many people must die before stem cell research is approved? Or shall we always be stuck with healthcare that only sucks every drop of life and happiness out of the elderly, disabled, and the middle-class?

[magellan]

76. Wow, that's sad

After reading what your cousin has gone through, I consider myself even more lucky to have dealt with the hospital and surgeon I did! But I do realize others have very different, often frustrating experiences up and down the spectrum of health care...which is why we were so pleasantly surprised by the quality of care I received.

Universal healthcare is the best answer. But considering the direction this country is headed, I don't expect to see it within my lifetime.

I just hope I live to see the hospital bill paid off one day in the far future. Yeesh it's depressing.

[Yollam]

99. There are 6 primary reasons we are moving back to Japan

1. Wife's father is old and infirm and needs help, and she is an only child (In Japan, she's totally responsible for caring for him)
2. The cost of living in San Francisco (a city which I dearly love) is untenable. Rents in her hometown are less than half what they are here for the same square footage (most of Japan is nothing like Tokyo in cost of living - groceries and sundries are also cheaper.
3. We always intended to go back before the kids entered Jr. High School. We both consider the education system there to be far superio, and we want them to spend time immersed in both cultures.
4. Health Care. Health Care. Health Care. We have not been able to afford my company's helath plan for several years ($300/mo to cover me and my wife), so we've been uncovered. KIds get CA Healthy Families. Wife and I both need all kinds of dental work.
5. Bush's America is a nightmare. A daily psychological assault from a propagandistic media and idiotic and/or apathetic citizens. I've had enough of it, really.
6. I can't think of any good reasons to stay here, other than missing good Mexican food and liking the weather better in California.

[magellan]

125. I hear you

We've been considering moving back to the UK (my husband is British), but it's been halfhearted...We realize we'd just be trading one set of problems for another. Economically we're better off here, although most months we still only manage to just scrape by. In the UK we were being killed by taxes on the necessities: 70% petrol tax, rising poll (property) tax, 17.5% sales tax, rising tv and car tax...It all adds up very quickly and there's little room for avoidance. There often seemed to be a confluence of taxes working against us all at once. At those times I liked to remind hubby that this was why we kicked their butts outta the USA. Twice. lol

Being covered by the UK's National Health Insurance is one thing we miss. The NHS is undeniably underfunded and mismanaged; many times people are rushed through their GP's office without having their questions answered, only to wait months for a required surgery or specialist consultation. We've all heard the horror stories. But there are obvious benefits to being fully covered. The main one is people don't hesitate to see their GPs when something's wrong.

For instance, if we'd been in the UK I would have gotten myself to a doctor before my appendix ruptured. I held out too long because we couldn't afford a $200+ doctor's visit just to find out I had gas!! We lost the roll on that one. But the point is, we shouldn't have been forced to make that decision in the first place. Having to weigh one's financial situation against seeking proper medical care is a positively barbaric way to handle healthcare. It could have killed me. I'm sure it kills others.

The failure of our democracy alarms me no end. But we don't have children to consider, and in our case moving back to the UK just to escape this regime would be tantamount to cutting off our noses to spite our faces.

[Yollam]

127. Yes, but the UK is different from Japan & Europe

The UK and the US have much worse income disparity (rich-poor gap) than other parts of Europe or Japan.

I wasn't aware that taxes in UK were that onerous, though.

In Japan, gasoline certainly cost much more, but we only really used the car on weekends, and the mileage was much less than here.

There is a 5% consumption (sales) tax, which I don't care for, and the top tax rate on the wealthy is around 70%, but most people pay much less. My income tax was about $400 per year.

One way in which Japan is failing is in dealing with its homeless problem. Homelessness was unheard of until the early 90s, but since then has become fairly common. There are hardly any shelters or services to help homeless people, so they set up little encampments in the city parks, with little makeshift tarp-covered shacks to live in. Panhandling simply isn't done in that culture, so I'm not really sure how they survive. Unlike US homeless, most of them are not mentally ill or substance abusers, but often middle-age men who have been laid off due to corporate restructuring, and were unable to find other work. Normally men in this situation would have family to fall back on, but these are the ones with no family, apparently.


I was quite impressed with the egalitarian nature of Japan. Even "bad" neighborhoods seemed very clean and safe to my eye. The rich, rather than living in walled-in compounds, build their houses right next door to a tenement, which might be right next to a mid-priced condo building. Most people can make a decent wage, and CEOS, etc usually only make a fraction of what they make here. The president of Honda, for example, rather than having a fancy corner office, put his desk in the middle of a big office floor, right out with all the regular office drones.

People also seem to have more respect for working people, even if they have a menial job. Here, the rich raise their kids to sneer at poor kids - disgusting.

[magellan]

139. Yes, you're right

In fact I've visited Japan and have always admired much of their culture, aspects of which are often misunderstood by Westerners. Their society is very orderly and efficient. They not only take care of their elderly, they respect them. Children are celebrated, literally (Girl's Day, Boy's Day), but they aren't shielded from the realities of life. The exorbitant cost of living is balanced by a real tight sense of community. The Japanese don't shy from the technological advances of science, but neither are they afraid of putting the environment and people first. In that sense, compared to the US they're a nation of "tree huggers".

And...they have ice cream machines on the streets, that always work and are always full, even in the oppressive heat of Tokyo in August!! (That is the ruler by which I grade other societies now. lol!)

You're most fortunate to have the option of living in Japan.

The UK is indeed hobbled by ongoing economic strains and class warfare. The latter is particularly deeply entrenched, and some of it is self-inflicted. I'll never forget the day I offered our next-door neighbor -- an E. Londoner transplanted to the Midlands -- a beer and, as an afterthough, a glass. He declined the glass, saying, "I work for a living." It surprised me. All I'd done was consider that some don't like drinking straight from the bottle. He on the other hand chose to make the glass a symbol of distasteful class distinctions.

It's a funny old world, as they say. And yes, those prideful class attitudes are present here, too, and are growing with US income disparity.

One other thing I can say for the UK, though: they have a far better safety net for the poor than we do. If you lose your job or home or wind up unable to care for yourself, there's subsidized housing and all sorts of social services benefits and support to choose from, particularly when children are involved. You have to jump through the bureaucratic hoops of your local council to get these things (and to keep them for any length of time; councils are taking a zero tolerance stance on abuse). You don't live like a king, either. More often than not the low-income population is shoved into council houses on a crime-ridden estate. But at least you don't have to fight to survive on the streets and dumpster-dive to feed your kids.

Here, in similar situations, you'd better pray you've got friends and family to turn to or you're in for a hell of a rough ride, underage children notwithstanding.

Excellent OP, by the way. I wish this discussion could take place at all levels in the US.

[Joe Chi Minh]

147. The dental service has been butchered in the UK, but it's given

rise to a hilarious situation in my case. My dentist feels guilty about insisting that I come in every 6 months for a check-up (completely free, because I'm an old-age pensioner)! Who cares about his motive for the policy? Who, indeed, always acts from disinterested motives for that matter? It just seems ironical, that he feels guilty about insisting on giving me regular dental checks, and treatment when necessary!

[magellan]

172. What a shame it's come to that

Imagine, a medical professional feeling guilty about doing preventative medicine! It's just more evidence of how broken the system is. And from my perspective, living in the States again, it seems a double tragedy, because the UK is so much closer to having a viable healthcare system for all than we are; with proper tweaking, your dentist's guilt could be assuaged.

One for doctors everywhere who insist on doing their jobs right despite the obstacles. :toast:

[Joe Chi Minh]

203. I've been working on him.

He told me as I left last time not forget to come back in six months, quite truculently!

[Lydia Leftcoast]

130. And who knows, these days you may be able to get good Mexican food

in the larger cities.

I've been impressed with the increasing quality and variety of ethnic restaurants in Japan on recent trips, most run by immigrants.

[Yollam]

142. There is one joint in Fukuoka...

It's called "Chili Joe".

The owner traveled widely in Mexico and developed a taste for the food. When he first opened, he tried to serve the food as authentic as possible, but the indica rice and spicy flavors didn't please his customers' palates, so he adjusted the flavors to be milder and sweeter, and used the sticky japonica rice instead.

So unfortunately, it doesn't quite satisfy this native El Pasoan, but on the plus side, the quality of the meat he uses in his tacos, etc, is excellent. Very nice brisket or skirt steak shredded. That quality of meat in our Mexican restaurants is rare to nonexistent.

Anyway, there are plenty of foods I like over there. I'll live. Mexican is too fattening anyway. :)

[KT2000]

166. My hospital

(we only have one) would start proceedings to take your property immediately. They even set up payment schedules for people and the people can be on schedule with their payments but they seize the property anyway.
For this reason, I doubt that my hospital would like to see universal healthcare. They are making a killing in the inflated real estate market.

Hospitals should be out front demanding universal healthcare.

[BigYawn]

73. Altho I am for a single payer system, why is it that many more Canadians

come to the US for medical treatments than US residents
trekking across the border to the north?

Recently many US residents go to Mexico, Singapore, India,
for expensive medical procedures when lacking adequate
insurance, but that may be purely financial decision.

I have no quarrel with the quality of service delivered in
the US, just tha cost is too goddam high.

It makes sense to eliminate all the middle men, such as
insurance companies, HMO's, lawyers, out of the medical loop.

Only 17% of physician's offices are paperless as of now. That
is pathetic. And the software used by doctors and hospitals
do not talk to each other. All this could be made more efficient
with a single payer system.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

75. Well, for one thing, the Canadian health care system is for

citizens and legal residents only. An American going up there would have to pay out of pocket, so there wouldn't be much point in doing so.

Canadians who come down here mostly come to "jump the queue" for elective surgery.

[Bridget Burke]

91. What are the figures for Canadians coming to the US?

What procedures are they having done in the US? Lipo?

We can't go the Canada for treatment. Since we aren't Canadian, we aren't qualified to do so.

[BigYawn]

153. The only figures I keep track of are

at the beach wearing a shapely bikini..LOL
But seriously, my comment was based purely on anecdotal
evidence. There ar ealways stories in the MSM about
Canadians & rich people from foreign lands, coming to
the US to receive the most advanced treatment money can
buy. But I have never ever read anyone going to Canada
except to buy prescription meds.

[Hello_Kitty]

96. Elective procedures are a lot of that

Cosmetic surgery and laser eye procedures, stuff like that. When they talk about all the Canadians coming down here they don't make distinctions about what they're getting done. Plus, there are a lot of rich people up there. If you want top-notch personalized medical care and, here's the crucial part, have the bucks to afford it, the U.S. can't be beat. This is a separate issue from providing BASIC healthcare to your citizens. The medical insurance lobby has done a brilliant job through bullshit anecdotes and scary faux websites of scaring people so that they're willing to accept half the country having NO health care to avoid the supposed "horrors of socialized medicine".

[jamesinca]

122. The US has good technology

the problem is we are 31st in delivery of it to the people. If Americans go to Mexico, the cost is dirt cheap and the quality of delivery is about the same anyway. If the people from Canada come here, their health care plan picks up the cost and they get all of that wonderful cutting edge tech, hence the delivery is better because an HMO/insurance company is not denying them. That is IMHO

[depakid]

77. it sure seems to work well in Britain, too

although nobody's proposing a socialized system like the NHS.

A system more in line with Canada would be the ticket- and we could do that either in one fell swoop- or incrementally by expanding medicare and medicaid to an ever increasing number of people.

Economically, practically and in terms of overall health outcomes.

It makes abxolutely no sense to employ an army of parasites who's sole purpose is to work to DENY healthcare to as many people as possible. That's insane- but as I've said for years- welcome to Reagan's America- because that's when the real pathology began....

[wug37]

85. Brilliant!

I absolutely love this post. It says everything that needs to be said. Thanks!

:beer:

[npincus]

86. I lived in Japan for 2 years ('89-'91)- my health care stories:

With National Health Insurance, I paid less than $30 for a wisdom tooth extraction. That was 2 visits with x-rays.

My Japanese boyfriend (now husband) had a serious colon infection- he was hospitalized for 2 weeks, and had a number of invasive procedures performed in the hospital. If I remember correctly, he paid about 20,000 yen (about $130 at that time) at the end of his stay. Approx. $10 a day.

the hospital was not 'luxurious' by our standards, but FUCK THAT. I would trade access to cable TV ansda semi-private room for worry-free, affordable health care for EVERYONE.

By comparison, I had my daughter by Cesarean, spent 4 days in the hospital and was billed more than $35,000. And my dentist charges $1600 for a crown (I need one).

[oregonjen]

135. I lived in Osaka during those years on the JET program

Came back to Oregon in '91, met my future husband and moved back there in '93. We lived in Yokohama for 2 1/2 years and I had my daughter over there. I guess with my experiences, I don't have a great love for the health care system there. I much prefer doctors here and enjoy the cleanliness here. Of course there is coverage for everyone in Japan, but I don't think the level of care is all that great. It seems like doctors over here are more up to date and have a better knowledge of care than the Japanese doctors I've seen. One of the biggest reasons I really wanted to move back here is because of better medical care.

[Yollam]

192. That's pretty surprising.

I don't know about Osaka, but our hospital & clinics in Fukuoka were always clean and the care was always excellent.

Osaka is a huge city, so I suppose things may be different there.

My personal doctor in Japan was great, and his office wasn't a salesroom full of pamphlets for various erection pills, etc.

For the money, I found the Japanese system to be far superior to the typical HMO's here. Are you one of those rare people who still has full "Cadillac" coverage?

[oregonjen]

194. I found the system to be antiquated and the physicians not as

knowledgeable. I know of a few Americans married to Japanese over there that preferred to come back to the states for medical care. I'm not the only one. Also, the view of childbirth and having husbands with the wives in the delivery room (tachiai-bunben) is still back in the 50's. I had to beg with my ob to have my husband with me and even with promises he could be there, was not allowed in until after my daughter was born. I'm still upset with that. I think the health system is okay over there, but maybe 20 years behind the US regarding style of care and knowledge. I went to local clinics, in Yokohama, not huge hospitals that are in big cities. That may be the reason. Even still, during my stay in Osaka, I was in a hospital that was not clean. Yuck! That is just my two cents worth. Someone else may think differently. I lived over there for 5 1/2 years altogether, single, then married.

[Yollam]

195. That was not my experience at all. I was there for the delivery...

...of both my kids. My wife got to stay in the hospital for a week after each delivery, rather than being kicked out after a day or two like here. And the food was excellent, gourmet fare. (Not typical at all hospitals, but this was a nicer OB-GYN hospital) The cost of delivery was fully covered, BTW, and we got ultrasounds at every prenatal visit.

I've been in several hospitals over there, and never found any to be dirty, although a couple may have been built in the 60's. You mention style of care being antiquated - I suppose there is and old fashioned "feel" to the way doctors and nurses dress and behave, but in all the ways that mattered, it seemed up-to-date, with very good preventative care.

My one and only gripe was that the the medicine was that awful bitter powder in the little packets. :puke:

Oh, and my first dentist was a smoker with STANK-ASS hands, so I quickly found another.

[oregonjen]

196. I'm glad you could be with your wife. It's so important.

I suppose it's just left up to fate as to where you go and what doctor you see. My experiences over there made me hope and pray for my husband to be tranferred to Oregon. We got our wish and I'm happy where I'm at. Being young and naive over there did not help, for sure, though. With my second birth, in Oregon, my nurses were great, the hospital stay was just right, and I healed much better. I couldn't wait to get home and be in my own surroundings.

You mentioned the hospitals not being full of pamphlets. Well, after giving birth in Japan, a rep from a baby formula co. came and "shared" some samples. Not only that, I had "visiting hours" with my baby. At night, she had to go back to the nursery where they bottle fed her! I would get her in the morning and tried to nurse a baby who was full. A week of that and I did not have the milk supply for my baby. It took me 3 months of non-stop nursing to catch up with her! In hindsight, I should have kicked and screamed for my baby, but I was so tired, in pain from the birth and in new mommy shock. My husband was a huge support, but we were both new to the parenting business.

Just know that every country has flaws. I saw Japan through rose-colored glasses for a long time. I learned through experience that not everything is wonderful, even their health care.

[Yollam]

197. There must be a lot of different schools of thought on babies...

...but the situation you describe is not the only way it's done, although it may be typical - I don't know.

But in my wife's case, the baby slept in a crib in the room with her, and she exclusively breast-fed. I'm sorry you didn't get very progressive hospitals over there...

[BallardWA]

87. The "Bake Sale" comment is more real than you think...

We had to have an "art sale" to fund our friend's treatment. She is at the mercy of Medicaid, and has had the added stress of having to beg for care. Oh, inverted world.

[Hardrada]

178. They are always having benefits and dinners etc. around here

for cancer patients but really for the families to help them pay the bills since the people who the benefit is for are always obviously terminal cases.

[stepnw1f]

89. Good Post! (nt)

[Straight Shooter]

90. Health care is my number 1 issue for where I'll spend the rest of my life.

To me, it's a reflection of a sense of community, of taking care of each other as if we all actually cared about the health and well-being of this country. It's understood that many people become ill because people with flu, for example, go to work because they can't afford to go to the doctor, thus making other people ill. That's just one example of how good, affordable health care can benefit the U.S. community as a whole.

Republicans, besides wanting to feel "special," believe that to give to someone else is to take away from them. That's a big part of the problem with their perception of the benefits of health care. We have one Golden Rule, they have another, and everyone knows how those "golden rules" are defined.

Excellent post. Yollam.

[jamesinca]

128. California is working on a big one for its state

It was introduced by State Senator Kuehl. SB840, the California Health Insurance Reliability Act (CHIRA). It is basically a cradle to grave coverage for everybody in the state. You do not pay into it if you are low income and you stop paying the tax at 200-250K. It is a financial windfall for business because it will take the burden of the health care benefit away from them. It is good for the people because it will make them a group with access. As Paul Wellstone once said, "We all do better, when we all do better".

This measure has truly bipartisan support. It has passed the State Senate and is currently in the Assembly. It has made it through one Assembly committee and will have one more committee before a floor vote and the Governors desk.

They know the biggest fight will not come from Republicans or the people of California, it will come from the insurance and pharmacy industry. We are like sleeping in the same room as an elephant. When California rolls over, the rest of this country better move, because it will get squished. As the 6th largest economy in the world, we don't just make little ripples. They currently are getting the grassroots together and this summer they really want to take it to the streets.

http://www.healthcareforall.org/

[Straight Shooter]

136. Now, that is very interesting. Thank you for the link, too.

For me, it isn't just the issue of the expense of health insurance, but of course that is a large part of it because I'm self-employed. The other issue is, here we are living in a country that devotes a huge percentage of taxes to build our military, yet ignores basic social conditions that contribute to a genuine quality of life. I want to be part of a society where people understand that to help the least of its members is to help everybody, even if one cannot see tangible results in one's own life.

I guess I'm just a socialist at heart. :)

[Joe Chi Minh]

148. You and St Paul, the Apostle.

The rich man did not have too much, nor the poor man have too little", is simply another way of saying, "From each according to hs means, to each according to his needs". Or it may have been St James. I must try and find it.

[Straight Shooter]

163. My idea of taking care of each other isn't based on meritless distribution

I don't necessarily believe in an absolute "from each according to his means," because people who work hard should be allowed to enjoy the fruits of their labors and we must always be wary of those who want to give but little effort and yet partake too much of what they do not deserve. I'm just saying that the way it's set up now in America, the one who has the most keeps taking too much from the one who has too little. CEOs making astoundingly vast amounts of money compared to their workers, is just one example. At one point a CEO made, what, 4 times as much as the average worker in his/her company and now it's, what, 40? No excuse for that, not in my book.

Just looking for a little more balance, a little more compassion.

[Joe Chi Minh]

202. You remind me of something Karl Marx once said

(not that I think you are necessarily penurious): "The tragedy of the poor is the poverty of their desires". You'd just like a little more justice.

Unsurprisingly, since Marx was an atheistic materialist (albeit educated in first Judaism, then Christianity) it is the antithesis of Christ's teaching, since Christ taught that it is their glory and should be our goal. "Mary has chosen the better part". However, he also said that we should be as wise as serpents and as innocent as doves - so that we don't become the play-thing (as we have...)of the worldlings, who tend to preponderate at the top, due their greater appetite for money and power. Instead there has been a polarisation of the more wordly and the more spiritual, ardently fostered by the far right, of course.

"I don't necessarily believe in an absolute "from each according to his means," because people who work hard should be allowed to enjoy the fruits of their labors and we must always be wary of those who want to give but little effort and yet partake too much of what they do not deserve."

I disagree with both points you make. Wealthy people who work very long hours are failing to develop as they should, as human beings; seeking protection and assurance in material possessions. Such behavior inevitably leads to open-ended greed and contempt for the well-being of their fellows.

Nor do we need to worry about the slothful. It is their loss, not ours.

The following is from the Constitution on the Church in the modern world, of the Second Vatican Council, which you may find interesting:

"Just as human activity proceeds from man, so it is ordered to him. When he works, not only does he transform material things and society, but he develops himself as well. He learns, he develops his faculties, and he emerges from and transcends himself. Rightly understood, this kind of growth is more precious than any kind of wealth that can be amassed. It is what a man is, rather than what he has, that counts.

Technical progress is of less value than advances towards greater justice, wider brotherhood and a more humane social environment. Technical progress may supply the material for human advance, but it is powerless to bring it about.

Here then is the norm for human activity - to harmonize with the authentic interests of the human race, in accordance with God's will and design, and to enable men as individuals and as members of society to pursue and fulfill their vocation.

There seems to be some apprehension today that a closer bond between human activity and religion will endanger the autonomy of man, of organizations or of science. If by the autonomy of earthly affairs is meant the gradual discovery, exploitation and organization of the laws and values of material things and society, then the demand for autonomy is perfectly in order: it is at once the claim of modern man and the desire of the creator. By the very nature of creation, material being is endowed with its own stability, truth and excellence, its own order and laws. These man must respect as he recognizes the methods proper to every science and technique.

We cannot but deplore certain attitudes (not unknown among Christians) deriving from a short-sighted view of the rightful autonomy of science; they have occasioned conflict and controversy and have misled many into opposing faith an science.

However, if by the term 'the autonomy of earthly affairs' is meant that material being does not depend on God and that man can use use it as if he had no relation to its creator, then the falsity of such a claim will be obvious to anyone who believes in God. Without a creator there can be no creature. In any case, believers, no matter what their religion, have always recognized the voice and the revelation of God in the language of creatures. Besides, once God is forgotten, the creature is lost sight of, as well".

... which is the very reason why we have sunk from a welfare state to a vortex of chaos and anomie. The far left loves Christ's economic teachings, if only as an invaluable "front" for their own political ambitions, but long ago ceased to acknowledge their author. Keir Hardie would weep to see how the atheists of the far left have betrayed the Gospel ethos and its author from whom he drew his inspiration.

[progressoid]

93. Wish I could still nominate this one!

[pinto]

94. Great post. n/t

[deutsey]

95. My in-laws, both conservatives and Bush supporters,

are having lots of severe health problems that are threatening to bankrupt both of them. They're also quite overwhelmed with having to manage their care with little help from the health care system and insurance companies.

Yet they still support Bush (although it's wavered a little) and are glad we don't have socialized health care.

I don't get it.

[Joe Chi Minh]

149. Nor do they. The health care, either.

[deutsey]

159. No, and neither will their grandkids, but that doesn't seem to matter

to them.

Somehow the mysterious invisible hand of the market will provide for all.

I'm only in my forties but there are times when I feel as if I've lived too long.

[Joe Chi Minh]

200. It is par for the course for them - since they are congenitally

incapable of being truthful - but that Invisible Hand was not so designated by Adam Smith to describe the effects of market forces, as they would have it, but instead of MORALITY; and MORALITY with specific reference to the welfare of society at large, instead of the narrow, reptilian self-interest of a small plutocracy. I do a disservice to the dumb beasts, speaking like that. Even the insects have a sense of community.

A basic axiom of all the major religions is that God has delegated to us the task of bringing order out of chaos. The far right, however, true to their father, the Devil, work ceaselessly in the opposite direction; to bring chaos where any measure of order reigns.

It is a truism that "fish rot from the head", so what does the shamefully inordinate scale of our prison populations tell us about the ethos in which our leaders must "live and move and have their being..."? (as confirmed, of course, in the US, by that most coveted presidential perk, the amnesty for their closest, seriously criminal and justly incarcerate friends?)

In the UK, post WWII, a conscientious Socialist Government, despite having its fair share of arch villains, brought some order, purpose and dignity to our country. Post Thatcher, and most notably under Blair, believe it or not, the favored template of the far right in the US, of a ghettoized country with oases of moated estates, has clearly been Blair's "vision thing". And we now have a waste-land, of chaos and anomie, under the watchful husbandry of a Government which could perhaps best be described as the perfect governmental counterpart of Monsanto's senior administration. Agent Orange crippled, deformed and killed the body, Blair's government has also, however, been remorselessly killing the soul of the people and the country at large, like the rotting fish, from top to bottom.

[arachide]

98. Ireland's pretty cool too...

a cap of about $100 per year on household costs for medication. Heck, my mother pays more than that in a MONTH in the US!

[Ganja Ninja]

100. You're missing the point. Over here we have choice!

We can choose between an endless array of blood sucking con-men offering to insure us or we can crawl off and die.

We can choose to pay more than anyone else in the world for drugs developed from tax payer funded research or we can fuck-off.

After all, when your sick would you rather have medicine or choice?

[Joe Chi Minh]

150. Yes, Blair's always wanting to give us more choice - whether it's

health or education. Some time back, people were even given the choice of forfeiting their company pension scheme for some cockameeny private investments scam, which of course bombed. And pensions seem to be on the way out, anyway, since Brown started plundering tens of billions from the national pension fund; apparently, a much larger sum than he's admitted.

[Not Sure]

101. My number one issue

This is great to read. If I could find any candidates in my area who would support a system like this, I'd not only vote for them, I think I'd campaign for them. But finding a candidate like that in fascist Metrosprawl, Texas? Yeah, I'll keep looking...

[GuyGadbois]

102. National Health Care

Greetings Bloggers.

Well, I am the enemy I suppose. Though I did vote for Bill in 96. These pages normally contain some bizarre ravings but today I am intrigued. You make some excellent points in regard to the healthcare situation. I am doing some research to find out more. Problem, the medical lobby OWNS Washington, both Dem and Repub. How to get around that? Plus, you must first get a presidential candidate that people will actually vote for(read..NOT HILLARY), Bayh, Breaux, Warner, etc. What is the obsession with lefties!?!!? Take a cue from Bill, Center left works, Left/left sucks.

[Joe Chi Minh]

151. Oh yeah? Did Bill manage to introduce national health

care? Wise up, laddie, and go back to freeperland.

[flaminbats]

198. health-care reform is the only thing left holding together our party..

this is an issue that unites people from all races, religions, generations, and even incomes. It is hard enough when a friend or relative gets cancer, but how does paying increasing premiums act as a safety net? Someone who works hard, even saves a few million from a family business..and later goes into debt just to pay for radiation treatment! A bigot who gets HIV..and later learns that shitting on the lifestyles of others isn't helping. A twenty-one year old worker who pays for his dying mother's medication, but slowly begins to wonder where the money he pays in Social Security and Medicare taxes is going!

Medicare isn't going to improve until we are all part of it, and we all demand that it provides coverage..not push sales tricks. Business isn't out there to be kind and generous, but to minimize expenses and increase income for the stockholders. Insurance and other kinds of safety-nets should exist to serve the taxpayer, not to take our money..then run away when we have a problem!

Universal health-care is our winning issue..it turned me from a fanatical social darwinist into a liberal democrat. Health-care is something needed by every family, but we are only paying more and more to wait longer..only to get more referrals only for the same damned thing! Now our party leaders claim that insurance companies can't make money without cherry picking, that Democrats will only lose my pushing welfare, and that all Democrats must be pro-business!

How can anyone be pro-business by embracing such legalized insurance fraud? How can our party win by turning it's back on an issue that motivated so many of us to become politically active? How can a government that embraces the virtues of peace, prosperity, and basic justice tell us "insurance companies are heroes for making money..but that anyone who can't afford to provide basic health-care for a child should be thrown into prison for second-degree murder?"

[savemefromdumbya]

104. I like the British National Health system

I lived in Canada too. I prefer a system free at the point of use with no worries about whether your treatment is to be covered or not. There are horror stories on both sides of the Atlantic but poor old Britain always gets it for long waiting lists. I've never had to wait long in the UK about the same time as here. The quality of treatment is as good in the UK as the USA (especially the midwife teams for childbirth! there's another story!). I wouldn't mind paying a state health tax instead of health insurance.

[DollyM]

110. another twist to this health care issue is . . .

You have to be healthy to get health insurance if you have to get it yourself. My husband is diabetic and has been hospitalized 3 times in the last four months. I drove him 70 miles to the nearest VA hospital each time but still have emergency room visits at our local hospital totaling over 5 thousand dollars. We have no health insurance because he works two part time job as a teacher and counselor at a local junior college. We have tried to buy private insurance but can't get anything reasonable in price because he is considered un insurable with the diabetes. I read today that Bush is going to ask Congress for 120 billion more for the war in Iraq. Interesting that we have that much money for Iraq but can't afford ensuring that every American has access to affordable health care. At least I live in Illinois where our Democratic Governor has put through a program to ensure every child in Illinois, even those from families who are not poverty level, at a reasonable 40 dollars a month per child. Our Governor is also trying to see that every Veteran is given insurance so that we don't have to drive 70 miles for health care or risk having a 45 hundred dollar emergency room bill because we are in a situation where it would not be wise to try to drive a diabetic 70 miles for care. I hope that he is working toward insuring all of us that are not insured. We aren't asking for a hand out, just the ability to have health care at a reasonable and affordable price.

[savemefromdumbya]

126. It is shocking that a country cannot insure EVERYONE

[Joe Chi Minh]

152. Like the banks only offering you an umbrella, when it's not

raining. Ah... the wonders of capitalism, red in tooth and claw!

[Strawman]

106. Oh, but so and so said their Aunt Mildred in Canada

had to wait seven years for a heart operation. :sarcasm:

That's why we don't have universal health care or single payer: scare tactics by the people who make money off of us being sick. There are still enough people in this country who can say, hey, screw those 45 million uninsured, I got mine. Not enough people with insurance want to even chance their own health care for the collective good of a sensible just health care system.

[Joe Chi Minh]

154. Listen. Who's going to pay for the armaments industry, if all the

taxes go on health care? When I read how much of went to them, I couldn't help laughing with incredulity. It was so completle off the scale. It dwarfs the expenditure on armaments of the rest of the planet. Not speak of the enormous chunk of funding it takes out of your own national infrastructure, social and material.

[progressivebydesign]

109. My friend in Belgium works for the health care authority..

she's a civil servant, making a modest but decent wage. She enjoys their health care system. They also have town funded child care centers for everyone. She thinks it's insane the way health care is handled here, and how everyone does NOT have access to health care. It seems so backward and barbaric, and she's right.

[mb7588a]

111. woah, japan!

Hey isn't that one of those countries we stepped up to the plate to save from fascism in WWII?

Hey what's that you say? They're MORE free than us? No shit?

Japan doesn't spend huge $$$ on military, we do that for them.
They're much healthier than us, rice and fish.
They must be animal-robot hybrids.

[Yollam]

168. They do spend on military...

The "Self Defense Force" is bigger and better-armed than a lot of people realize.
Japan spends 1% of GDP, $44 billion on defense.

In addition, Japan lets the US use plots of land for its bases which are ENORMOUS by Japanese standards, and the Japanese pay the costs of all utilities etc. involved in running the bases. Add in the fact that PM Koizumi gives Bush regular blowjobs and that Japan is carrying $700B in US debt.

Pretty good deal for the US, IMO, since we haven't had to actually do anything in the region for 50 years.

[Up2Late]

112. YEAH! Who wants to be healthy all the time?!?

I mean, what else are we gonna do with all these retired people over 65, let them live out a happy and healthy life!?! :shrug:

Healthy old people could take them YEARS to die. :sarcasm:

Great Post!

[DSperoRN]

114. No sane health care without a single-payer plan - see my book

I just wrote a book on this that will be out in October, 2006 from New Society Publishers. Because of our splintered, for-profit medical system, all the wrong things are covered and the important things aren't. And that's if you have coverage at all.

My book is called The Truth About Diabetes: Who gets it? Who profits? How to Stop It. In diabetes, basic prevention and management services are not covered or barely covered. But the fantastically expensive complications of diabetes -- things like dialysis, vascular surgery, amputations -- are covered.

The reason is that we cover things that generate profits for drug companies and other big corporations, but not services that are performed mostly by low-level and mid-level professionals and lay people. It's all about money.

Americans pay TWICE AS MUCH per capita for health care as any other developed country, and have the worst health outcomes. Even Cuba, a poor country that spens 4 cents per capita on health care for every dollar the U.S. spends, has better health outcomes than we do.

We need socialized medicine. It's not perfect, but it's so much better than what we have, you can't argue against it rationally. You have to do what Bush always does, Lie, Lie, Lie.

[Gelliebeans]

118. thank you for saying so

I am caught up in the moment with my own HMO HELL, seriously these large HMO's only care about the cost thats it. If a patient is sick and not getting adequate care it's not their problem. As for treating patients like human beings well that is near to impossible. Sorry for my rant as I wait for my HMO to return my phone call to give me permission to get my medication that I have been receiving for the last 3 years and now they don't know if I should get it anymore.

:mad:

[eppur_se_muova]

131. Oh, that naughty asterisk!

Seldom has sarcasm been wielded so artfully. We stand in awe before the master.

[yy4me]

133. Whatever we could design, it would be better than the useless

insurance situation that exists today. We need Universal care, not some stupid health savings plan. Most of us can barely make our monthly bills, let alone save money to put into some health savings account. I'm tired of the politico's telling me that all I have to do is save a little more. I have worked(along with millions of others) all my life and am now at retirement age. Had to go back to work because I can't afford the $789.00 a month for individual health insurance from BCBS. A lot of the cheaper policies are useless, its like throwing your money away. The deductibles and co-pays are huge. Can you imagine how long the "suggested" $10,000 per year saved would last if you really got sick? Maybe a day or two, or of you needed surgery, forget it. You are out of the picture before you start. Tell me, how come we can afford Georges war(400 billion so far) but we cannot afford to take care of our citizens. And of course, lets not forget the free care we give to illegal aliens. Who's pocket is that coming out of? It makes my blood boil.

[WinkyDink]

134. I don't plan to get sick, you WEIRDO!

And you're more than a little suspect for having lived in the Land of the Rising Sun!

[Sparkman]

155. We have $5000.00 deductable! no joke. Coronary & transplants meet minimum

but everything else costs cash out of pocket.
Love the Japanese, Canadian, Europe health care. Hope my first heart attack is in Toronto or Vancouver, they cover foreigners for emmergency life saving medical service.

[renter]

156. Yollum, great post, I have a question,

How is this program paid for? Is it "X" amount from a paycheck? Is it a government program? Is any patient's health problem rationed or delayed?
Thank you again for your post, have a great day or maybe I should say night.

[Yollam]

169. There are 2 different schemes.

There is the National Citizen's healthcare, where the individual pays the entire premium. This is used by the poor, pensioners, and small business people, IE, people who don't have an employer providing their healthcare. The cost of premiums is about double the Social Health Insurance scheme, but the copays are the same, and it's still much cheaper than the cheapest HMO's here. Then there is the Social healthcare, where the employer and employee each pay half of the premium.

Both are fully run by the government. I don't know of any rationing, beyond scheduling concerns. We never had major operations, but I've never heard of serious delays in getting care. the worst delays we ever had was having to wait an hour at the emergency room when we went at about 2 am. That's really about as bad as it got.

[renter]

181. Yollam, thank you for your reply. I'll...

do a web search later on for more details.

[Yollam]

187. My translation of the names is approximate.

If you want to search about them, the schemes are called "shakai hoken" and "kokumin Hoken".

Good luck.

[Fleshdancer]

162. I gave birth to my daughter in Japan in 2000....it was HORRIBLE!

Not only did I have to pay a low co-pay during each visit, but I didn't get to argue with an insurance company at all AND the doctor wouldn't make me wait a long time in the waiting room...hello, it's called a WAITING room! He had the audacity to take his time talking to me and asking me all these stupid questions about my body and how I was feeling, and then he made me get an ultrasound during every visit even though I wasn't considered a "high risk" pregnancy!

All sarcasm aside, after my daughter was born I had to literally convince my doctor to let me go home early. For a normal healthy birth, a new mother usually stays at the hospital/clinic for about 5 days. Since my mom traveled all the way from Texas for the occasion, I wanted to spend as much time with her as possible. My doctor finally agreed to let me go when my mom arrived. :) I see my friends have babies here in the States now and I cringe hearing their stories.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

167. When we finally get real of having our tax $$ ending up in cheney's pocket

We will do something to ensure that our tax money goes to us in the form of nationalized health care, social security, and to build up our infrastructure.

[lostnfound]

171. Added benefit of private health insurance: feeling lucky to get a bargain

by paying direct instead of copays.

Tonight I was given a choice -- file under insurance and pay a copay of $140 for a nebulizer, or purchase 'the same exact unit' for $75.

Prescription copays just doubled this year too -- now $50.

[WearyOne2]

174. the right-wing hate socialised medecine more than anything

Illegal Iraqi invader John Howard was never able to get elected in Australia because he vowed to dismantle Medicare..only until he promised to leave it alone was he elected.

Once it's in no government can get rid of it and that's why they hate it so much.

[nanddk]

177. Sounds Great in Japan

But we live in the US. Just look at the wait times for our most revered "The Soldier". Don't look at Canada that is dismal. Japan should have ruled. They are on the cutting edge. I think the problem is not so much with the health care, but with the red tape. The US is always gonna be out ahead. I mean we research the drugs ...test the drugs.approve the drugs (not always rightly).
Then we allow the lesser Countries the ability to make a generic while it is still illegal here in the US, but we don't allow our pharmaceuticals the same.

Thats because we have a different standard for the World's Health. We in the US have to pay for the research and development, but we allow it to other countries that may be a bit behind, but somebody has to pay the piper and we ARE the Richest Country. Yes?

[Yollam]

188. Other countries do plenty of R & D...

...and they have made many valuable discoveries. In recent years, US R & D has been focused more and more on profit-making drugs like Viagra than on life-saving ones. Other countries are much more focused on preventive care, rather than catastrophic care for the rich.

None of the Canadians I've spoken to have characterized their healthcare system as "dismal" and none would trade it for ours.

For example, one of the reasons why other countries have much lower prices on prescription drugs is because they have laws regulating the profit margin on prescription drugs. We do not. The patient is at the mercy of predatory pharma and health care corporations.


Your characterization of world health care is tainted with a lot of nationalist conceit and is fairly inaccurate. You seem to think that the US is somehow carrying the rest of the world health-care wise, when nothing could be further than the truth. The rest of the world pity Americans because we have the worst health care system, and are the world's biggest debtor nation, no longer capable of producing anything here but pyramid schemes, seminar scams and endless mountains of weaponry.

I don't know what you mean about "Japan should have ruled". I'm glad they lost WWII. It's because they lost that they became the prosperous nation they are.

Are we the richest country? Only if you measure wealth by GDP, and even in GDP, we are not the highest per capita. An in terms of standard of living for the majority, the US is not even in the top ten, IMO.

[nowforever]

180. Won't Work

Cannot see the media and government supporting ideas that run
counter to the American ethic of 'me don't care about
you'.This society has been brainwashed into believing that
self sufficiency means that others don't matter.Your taught to
strive for self and that means you compete against the next
person.This mentality results in an ignorant self serving
mindset that precludes notions of community and the
universal.Awareness rarely goes beyond your family and closest
friends.......others are just non-beings we encounter.The
truth of love and humankind,are obscure and foreign notions,
in this narcissistic parade of inanity.Simple solution is to
put forth the truth.Taking care of people around you is not a
sacrifice,it's the only way to be truly alive. The
perpetuation of self has lead to the dismissing of the other.A
strong voice must rise in us and say sharing for the good of
all is the way to be truly alive.Simple notions I know,but it
is the only path to surviving.When something is so clearly the
right thing for all.........shout it.Courage comes from the
inside,we all know the truth let's fight for it....moment to
moment.   

[marions ghost]

213. nice post

welcome to DU nowforever.  

Couldn't agree more that the conservative leadership's lack of
investment in the health of the population jives with the
pervasive mentality of 'everyone out for themselves' very
well. It's now a Lord of the Flies situation. 

People who promote this mentality have absolutely no idea of
the benefits of a strong community, where no one is
downtrodden and left behind. They also have no idea of the
benefits to all of a healthy, less depressed population. When
I talk to these people about it I try to speak in their
money-conscious terms, arguing that this amounts to an
investment in people, which pays dividends to them.  You can't
get through to them on humanitarian grounds. They don't get
that at all.         

[rpannier]

183. You are sooooooooo right about National Health Care

I live in Korea. I have National Health Care, though it doesn't cover dental. I pay 36 bucks a month. I'll tell you, that 7,000 won a visit (7.00) and meds at 3,000-5,000 won a piece are outrageous.
I've never waited more than 15 minutes for an appointment.
My daughter broke her arm blading last year and injured her shoulder skiing. Total cost to me about 150,000 won ($150). Outrageous. Should be criminal. How is someone supposed to get rich on that?

[LuckyLib]

185. If folks without health care isn't obscene enough for you,

check out executive salaries -- William McGuire, CEO of Minnesota based United Health Care, Inc., received $124 million in salary and options in 2005, $94 million in 2003. If McGuire were to have accepted a paltry $19 million for those two years labors, there would be enough money left over to insure the 77,000 Minnesota children who currently lack coverage. It's enough to make you just sick.

[Yollam]

189. Jesus, that's a sobering statistic.

But Mr. McGuire must have his Lear Jet...

[Lydia Leftcoast]

201. Hi, CLW, and welcome to DU!

Check out the Minnesota forum if you haven't already!

[LuckyLib]

211. Thanks, I will! But I'm almost afraid to -- too much great

material on this site. . . it could become a habit!

[thebigidea]

186. makes me glad I have a massive tumor in my chest and no insurance

golly, I'm just so glad I'm paralyzed with pain and agonizing every night over whether or not I have cancer. Good thing we're not commies here! I mean, what about choice and long waiting lists?

[Yollam]

190. God, I'm sorry.

Is there no public health clinic you can go to?

How about the emergency room? We did that when my wife got an ear infection. The hospital billed us $1000 for the 5 minute examination by the doc, but we pled poverty, filled out a form and sent in a pay stub, and they waived the fee.

I really hope you can find a way to get help before it's too late.

[thebigidea]

191. will probably do that next week if I can't get insurance

currently being treated to an education on clauses, pre-existing conditions, and intricate health care plan plans to not actually provide health care.

yay!

[Boo_Radley]

199. Thank God I'm being protected from this!

If I didn't have to do so much work to keep health care, I might get lazy, then I'd become unhealthy. Not having affordable healthcare keeps me healthy. I'm glad I'm being looked out for like this. If we had this kind of system, we'd all become unhealthy and die.

:sarcasm:

[SeaBob]

204. national health care

I wish I had the opportunity to find out whether or not it works. from talking to some canadian friends they tell me it is not perfect but they would never want to give it up.

[1776Forever]

215. I Thought I had won the War! I had only won the battle!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I hope to GOD none of you who read this have to go without health care and only go to the ER's or have to take someone you love there without insurance! My 37 year-old son was diagnosed with MS and a rare form of eye problem called Devic's Disease after a year of going to ER rooms and having been treated with the most outrageous humiliation you can imagine! He lost all his money in the hurricanes of 2004 in Florida and then spent all his savings trying to get the diagnoses he needed to get SSI! We kept trying to get a diagnose for his illness, that made him jump around like he was hooked to electric wires and almost loosing his eyesight, but it took 12 months almost to do the day for us to find a competent Neurologist in Florida to order the test (evoked potential) that proved he had these two problems. :shrug:

My son is getting worse all the time and after this diagnoses he received his SSI and Medicaid and we thought that he was going to be OK - WRONG!!! Now we find that he can't get the medication he needs and I am still fighting for him! I am so stressed out it isn't funny - so many like him that can't get decent health care here in America when we send 5.5 BILLION just to Afghanistan to help them with their health care and God only knows how much more to other countries which probably don't even get to the poor souls that need it! Where the HELL is the help for our own citizens???? :banghead:

VOTE Democrat this fall! It is our only chance to gain back our rights! In the last budget ALL Repub Hypocrites voted FOR the cuts in Medicaid and ALL Dem's voted against - along with 13 other Repub's that voted against because most of them are running in Nov. and have close races! :kick:

[dtotire]

221. Extend Medicare to Everyone.

It would be probably difficult to pass a comprehensive medical plan through Congress. I would propose a piecemeal approach. We already have a single payer plan for seniors, called Medicare Part A. It only covers hospitalization and is being successfully run. I would propose extending this system to everyone. There would be less resistance to this approach. I would also suggest that it be funded by a consumption tax, such as a value-added tax, and eliminate the payroll tax. While it would not cover visits to a doctor, premiums for additional insurance would be more significantly reduced. It can be made more comprehensive afterward.

[OnslaughtSr]

220. I Had A Similar Experience In Germany....

I used to live in Germany and my wife was German. As a German, middle class income with no children she was paying 48% of her paycheck into taxes & health care. And she HAD to pay it. Since she wasn't rich enough to get out of the health care.

Since I was a foreigner living in Germany, I was "allowed" to have private insurance.

Messing around one day I pulled a couple of tendons in my ankle, but because it didn't hurt that bad I didn't go to the doctor. The next day my ankle was badly swollen and I couldn't walk on it, so I called the local doctor. They informed me that they were booked solid and I would have to go to an emergency room. Knowing I would need further check-ups, I asked if I make an appointment immediately. The secretary asked for my insurance card, and I gave her my number. She placed me on hold, and a few minutes later after they figured out I was privately insured, she came back and said the doctor would see me immediately.

My wife drove me over (we had a manual and I couldn't drive), and we were seen immediately. Walking past the little old ladies waiting there really made me feel bad. I have to admit, the doctor was very professional, too professional in fact. Looking at my ankle he said he could see I was in a lot of pain, and asked if I wanted him to take the blood out that had built up in my ankle. Which of course I did. :)

Leaving, I could see my wife was fuming. After we got back to the car, she went off about the differences in care she would have gotten if it had been her with her government health care. For the pain she would have gotten some aspirin and told to deal with it.

About a year later, my wife got promoted and finally became rich enough to get off the government care, which she did immediately. Within about two years after that, the German economy took a dump and the government raised the limit super high, making it almost impossible to get off. As the economy got worst, they kept raising the limit and gutting the system at the same time.

The fact of the matter is as long as the economy was going well, everything was good. Soon as things got a little rough, their health care started dragging them down even more.

As I was leaving Germany, my retired father-in-law as railing at the fact he had paid into the system his whole life and it was practically worthless now.

Going back to America, I contacted my German insurance company and asked if they would insure me in America. They informed me that they would insure me here. At a cost of almost TRIPLE what they were insuring me in Germany for. Fact of the matter is, health care is too high in America and they didn't want to pay it.

[islandspirit]

222. Canadian Healthcare

We moved to the US 20 years ago. I get really fed up when I
hear my friends in Canada say anything about their healthcare
that is not positive. They need to spend one month facing US
healthcare. I had 3 C-sections there & a perforated
appendix - not one bill. My mother's had cancer & my
father a heart by-pass. Not one bill. My father had a hip
replacement a year ago - yes in Toronto, he was on a waiting
list.....for 3 weeks. He was 80 years old. My friend's father
had a hip done in Montreal - he was 88.
Yes, there are wait times in Canada - a prioritized list based
on need. Canadians go to the states for either elective
surgeries or necessary surgeries that they don't want to wait
for and have the money to get done sooner. 
Ask yourself this - is healthcare a basic right or a
priviledge? In Canada it is the former, in the US, the latter.
When asked, Tommy Douglas is always ranked the #1 Canadian as
he is the father of universal healthcare (single payer). 
We are today self-employed paying $6000 for very basic
healthcare - covers virtually no doctor expenses nor lab tests
until we reach the $2500 deductibe each. We are the
underinsured. 
Our daughter became very ill in Bangkok & fainted &
taken to a hospital a day before her flight to the US. The
doctor wanted her to stay overnight but she feared for the
cost. So she was put on 4 hours of intravenous meds & the
doctor handed her pills to take - the bill was $35 - she was
so thankful she was that sick in Thailand and not upon
returning to the US as she had no coverage as she cannot get
it - she was given a prescription for malaria pills as she was
sailing & going thru Panama. Her trip ended early &
she never got there but is routinely denied coverage.  She was
23 & very healthy - had been a nationally ranked swimmer
from age 15 til 22 & could not get health coverage in the
US.
As we are in our mid 50's, it is a constant stress in our
lives and we are seriously considering moving back to Canada
............for health coverage - and of course to leave this
pitiful excuse for a democracy.
I have worked for healthcare for All in CA & urge any of
you to get involved at the state level. It may take a state or
two to see the light & savings of universal coverage &
perhaps this will all be a thing of the past.

[Terran1212]

224. Thank you!

[CarlSheeler4U]

226. Sheeler We need Congressmen and women

who believe in national healthcare. I use the Japan model frequently.

Here's a positive outlook, too

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2450397&mesg_id=