does the taping of teachers seem ok to you all?

[mikeanike]

This kurfuffle regarding the teacher in Ohio has brought to the forefront a very interesting issue. Can a student tape what a teacher is saying. I'm of the mindset that yes they can and should. School is not the place for bias of any sort. And besides if he speaks the truth why should he be afraid of getting in trouble?

[wakeme2008]

1. yes no problem unless the teacher has a problem.

I knew ppl in the late 70s that recorded teachers in college.

[BlueEyedSon]

3. Probably to study, not to prosecute BTW

[BlueEyedSon]

2. Yeah, i cant wait till they catch an ignorant fundie or conservative

indoctrinating our kids!

[MadMaddie]

4. They will play what the fundie teacher says and praise him...

and say what a great American he is....the media is our enemy!!

[BlueEyedSon]

17. There are probably still science teachers spouting Creationism/ID

On the local level (depending where) you could get in trouble for that (I hope).

[mikeanike]

20. hehehe

how could you call yourself a science teacher and actually spew that crap

[Bluzmann57]

5. If all teachers are taped

at all times, then maybe yes. But the case you are referring to was blatant spying by the kid and his family. They shopped the tape around to RW websites and/or media outlets. And that isn't any reason to tape a teacher.

[mikeanike]

13. who did they shop it too?

I haven't heard that yet (granted I haven't really cared that much about the actual context this issue is situated in)

[Bluzmann57]

23. Hannity I am pretty sure

Probably O'Reilly, and all of Fox "news". There is info here in DU. I'll see if I can find it, although I have to go shortly.

[mikeanike]

24. whatever you can do

i appriciate the effort! :yourock:

[liberalnurse]

6. Taping classes with a tape recorder

or even doing a video of a class has long been an acceptable learning tool.

[kenny blankenship]

15. Only if teacher consents

of course to consent, teacher must first be told

[Burning Water]

7. It seems to me that

whatever is said in front of 20-30 students is public, and that there is no expectation of privacy by the speaker. So, yes, I think that legally, maybe even morally, it is OK.

What was then done with the tape is another debate.

[adarling]

8. we are really not suppose to tape teacher lectures or anything like that

without specific approval from the teacher or professor. That is how i have known it since highschool to college now. I think the problem is that he was being taped secretly and then used against him. i see something extremely wrong about that and almost children of the corn/village of the damned kindof way that kid acted. Its like he is one of the nazi children, out to expose people that question our prince of evil. If i saw that kid i would give him a piece of my mind, little snot probably did it to get out of class.

[Common Sense Party]

11. I taped lectures all the time.

As long as I'm not selling the tape to lazy students who don't want to go to class, I'm within my rights to do so.

[ovidsen]

9. I don't see what's wrong with it

Students tape teachers all the time, to back up notes, or to share with students who missed the class.

But I do have a problem with directly passing a tape on to some extremist-political radio talker.

If you've got a problem with a teachers lecture, bring it up with the teacher, or the principal, or the school board, in that order.

To go directly to some radio flame throw is the action of a coward.

[SeaBob]

10. taping teachers.

If it is a public school then there should be no problem...
But this does bring up another interesting conflict. freedom of speach vs academic freedom

[Kerry fan]

12. Wasn't it in Colorado?

[mikeanike]

16. maybe

I was just guessing as to where it was. I don't really care about this guy. He should have been teaching geography. If he wants to talk politics he should switch positions.

[Hong Kong Cavalier]

22. Then perhaps you should pay attention to the acutal story.

Here's the interview with the teacher on the Today show. Take particular interest in post 11, which sums up the interview
www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x593675

and here's a link to the article:
www.9news.com/acm_news.aspx?OSGNAME=KUSA&IKOBJECTID=b8298706-0abe-421a-0116-75e16c449518&TEMPLATEID=0c76dce6-ac1f-02d8-0047-c589c01ca7bf

Allen's father claims the comments made in the recording are biased and inappropriate for a geography class.

"I'm not saying Bush and Hitler are exactly the same, obviously they're not. OK? But there are some eerie similarities to the tones that they use," says Bennish in his critique of U.S. economic and foreign policy.


If you think geography class is just about learning which capitals go with which states, you're sorely mistaken.
Every geography class I took in junior and high scool taught me why these borders were the way they were. U. S. economic and foreign policy
played a major part in the shape of the world and countries borders today.

But hey, if you want to continue to support this McCarthy-esque shit, go right ahead.

(And the fact that the kid didn't go to the school board with his tape, but instead shopped around for a right-wing talk radio station to get his message out
tells a lot about his motive for this.)

And if I had a nickel for every time a teacher went "off topic" or the class discussion went "off topic" in school, I'd be able to post here more often, 'cause I would
have no need for a job.

[mikeanike]

26. who are you talking to

when did I say a thing like Bush = Hitler? Are you sure your talking to the right person?

[Hong Kong Cavalier]

27. Please disregard that line (I've deleted it, and it was in error)

Sorry.
(It was left over from another post I was writing on another board, and I just cut and pasted. Oops)

[mikeanike]

28. concerning the offtopic issue

yes teachers will go off topic, hell you have to to keep the kids interested in what you have to say! But to delve into topics that have some much debate incircling them is really stirring a hornets nest!

[Hong Kong Cavalier]

30. But the teacher didn't completely "delve into topics that have...debate"

The student goaded him by asking leading questions. (Listen to the recording.)

He did this becuase he didn't like the teacher. As I said before, the intentional release of this tape first to
right-wing radio, instead of the school board (who can actually discipline the teacher, if they deem it is necessary),
reveals a TON about his motives.

He's not interested in discipline. He's not interested in debate or discussion. (unlike the teacher I heard on that tape)

He wanted this teacher fired, and knew he had a flimsy case that the school board wouldn't take too seriously, so he (and his parents) decided to shop the tape out
to some right-wing radio show (I don't know which, but I also belive it was Hannity) to stir up some good ol' fashioned "public outrage" to try to get the teacher fired.

It's 1953 all over again, but this time, the "Communists" are those who oppose Bush. This is just the beginning.

Recording a lesson is fine. Recording a lesson to feed to a right-wing radio persona to get some manufactured public furor is McCarthy-esque.

As I said: this is just the beginning. Expect more stories like this.

[mikeanike]

32. I have listened to the tape

He didn't start asking question until well into the teachers comments. He may have led him, but he didn't have to tough of a job. And I agree with your comment about expecting more of these stories. The question is will we hear about teachers with a right leaning getting in trouble, my guess...nope!

[Hong Kong Cavalier]

35. Your last line sums it up completely...

Looks like we're seeing this from somewhat the same angle after all.

:thumbsup:

(Again, sorry about the confusion for my first post. That's what happens when I cut and paste from another forum.
And the tone was a little bit too harsh.)

[mikeanike]

38. its all right

Passion is a good thing in politics. But it must always be tempered with the understanding that everyone has a different set of experiences which in turn create a different perspective of the world. Sadly that goes for the right wing as well. I have several republican friends and frankly they are my favorite people to talk politics with. It's the fact that they can challenge your own thoughts and opinions as well as come to a better understanding of why they support certain issues verses others. I'll probably get in a bunch of shit for saying this, but sometimes it seems that this site as well as others (including Free-republic) fosters the idea of stereotypes when it comes to the other side. Fuck man! We're all Americans like it or not. And we all have a right to our own opinions.

[DBoon]

14. As long as the teacher has tenure

or otherwise cannot be penalized absent some sort of gross misconduct

[mikeanike]

19. how so?

Isn't something like teaching simply a form of public speaking? And if that is the case isn't it almost expected to have someone tape them. I really find that if a teacher doesn't want to be taped then they shouldn't be teaching.

[DBoon]

29. Not all public speaches are allowed to be taped

in fact in many cases you are specifically forbidden to tape the speaker at a public lecture. Copyright and other intellectual property issues.

[mikeanike]

31. really?

How do you copyright speech? I think for it to termed intellectual property you would need it in a form of commodity. But if you have any links to such laws I would be very interested in reading them.

[DBoon]

42. Yes really

ever been to a public event where they said no recording was allowed?

Someone who makes their earning by public speaking may not appreciate being recorded and having the speeches circulate for free.

[mikeanike]

56. yeah they can say that

but does the law actually allow for prosecution in such a circumstance?

[lynne]

50. This wasn't a public venue even though it may be a public school -

- not anyone from the general public could walk in off the street and attend. Plus, this wasn't a specific pre-announced lecture, it sounded much more like general classroom teacher dialogue. Seems to me to be a different type situation.

[mikeanike]

57. i think the fact that it is public speaking still applies

It is expected that that teacher is going to get up and talk. I still think it is allowable to tape the teacher, however the need to prosecute or fire the guy or gal seems extreme. Plus you have to factor in the schools own policy regarding his type lecture!

[murray hill farm]

21. I guess it all depends on what use one would put the tape.

If the intent..and the actions that follow..are to assist with note taking from lectures, then it is OK..but still it is best to gain the consent of the teacher and for that purpose. It really is a matter of intent. If the situation were reversed..and the teacher taped the students without their consent or knowlege...then u would really see an outcry from parents and the schools administration. It is intent..and the follow through on that intent that makes it right or wrong.

[mikeanike]

25. see the issue is public and private speaking

the teacher couldn't do that unless the student got up in front of the classroom and spoke. If it was jsut a conversation the kid was having with another classmate then you would have a case of eavesdropping.

[murray hill farm]

not necessarily so.

I taught high school govt classes for a good many years. my students spent a good part of the class time in class discussion..talking about govt..their views on any number of issues..and in allowing their own beliefs of what govt should mean to evolve..and in discussing current events in govt...i do not believe that this is not the case in most govt classes today. i would never have taped them, of course. i wanted them to be free to explore ideas, but what if i had? it does not matter that it was a public school...that does not make it OK..for me or anyone to to tape their thoughts...their free expression and exploration..for my own purposes...especially if it was to "turn them" in to some judgemental authority. There is an agreement between teacher and student...a contract of learning..and of trust. It is no different for a student to secretly tape a teacher than it is for a teacher to tape a student if it is for underhanded purposes. It is the secret taping that is the issue. That does not mean that the teacher in this case was correct...i do not believe he was correct..a teacher should not impose his or her political beliefs on students...it is no more correct for a teacher to say bush is an asshole..or words to that effect, than it is for a teacher to say that women who have an abortion are going to hell..this is not the way to teach..especially in a public school. That is not the issue here...the issue is the secret taping of another person with the intent to use that tape to discredit or turn them into authorities.

[jwirr]

18. No I do not think it is right but then again I am sure that

teacher knew what he was facing when he brings up a sensitive subject like he did.

[AtomicKitten]

33. It's not the taping that is the problem.

It's the incessant drive by the wingnuts to make all aspects of life "fair and balanced" as if it is and as if they are.

Since when is news "fair and balanced?" News should just the unvarnished reporting of events.

And teachers should invoke thought.

[mikeanike]

36. true that....

Its a shame there are so many bad examples from both.....

[baldguy]

34. If you want to record anyone, ask permission first.

[Bridget Burke]

37. Not without the teacher's permission.

Some teachers might object because they would prefer the student actually pay attention enough to take notes. Or they would prefer the tapes not be given to those who have skipped class.

If a student believes he is being exposed to knowledge that might hurt his little mind, he should complain to the administration. Or have his daddy do so, if that's too complicated.

[ulysses]

39. just as long as I get to tape the kids. n/t

[Neil Lisst]

40. yes. Like police, they're public servants, and should be taped.

The teacher's problem isn't that he talked about these issues, but that he seemed so fiercely partisan. Instead of encouraging free thought, he seemed to be bullying his way over other perspectives. He could have compared Bush to Hitler and FDR, without all the attitude, and done much better.

[ulysses]

41. um, sorry, but no.

Since when does every person in public service have to be taped? And do I get to start taping my students without their informed consent?

[Neil Lisst]

44. it's perfectly legal for a student to tape a teacher

and just as with a police officer, there are many times when the student will need a tape if he or she is to be believed.

The lesson here is "don't say anything in class you will be ashamed to hear played back in public."

[ulysses]

46. so why can't I tape a student?

[Neil Lisst]

53. I don't know if you can or not. Depends on what your district says.

I'd think there would be times a teacher would want such a recording, too.

[ulysses]

54. I can't.

Not without parental permission.

If I'm going to be recorded without my foreknowledge, I want the ability to have my own tape.

[Neil Lisst]

55. all you need is the state legislature and governor to agree with you

and make it a law

until then, it's simply something that you don't like

[LWolf]

43. With teacher consent.

As a middle school teacher, I'd require a request from parents, made to me, and consent given. I'd consent if there was reason to believe it would help the student academically. Theoretically. :shrug:

Since I don't do much lecturing, taping would have a very limited benefit in my class.

[FreedomAngel82]

45. I think it depends

I remember once I took a writing course at my college and someone brought a tape recorder to tape the teacher and the lesson for the day. Some students can do better by voice and not so much with writing notes. So I guess it all depends.

[last_texas_dem]

47. Only if the teacher is first informed

I have no problem with students taping teacher's lessons as long as they ask the teacher beforehand about doing it or if the teacher tells the class as a whole that he/she has no problem with it. I do have a problem with the secret taping for the purpose of busting the teacher for expressing an opinion that this little shit did.

[lynne]

48. Can't speak for other states but I know that in Virginia -

- classroom discussion can be taped. Some children are encouraged to tape classes due to disabilities, special ed requirements, etc. I would think that these special ed requirements are similar state-to-state so all teachers should be more than aware that they can be taped by a student at any time.

[radio4progressives]

49. 1984 Big Brother / Brave New World

[BootinUp]

51. Well the teacher and school sets the rules

on that kind of stuff. Lets not try to control it with politics.

[rfkrfk]

52. people need to be able to protect themselves

if the sound goes into your ears, you own it

suppose someone threatens you, you should not need the
permission of that person to record.

if you don't want somebody to hear it, don't say it