Did Washington pay Iraqis (or contractors) to kill Tom Fox?

[guruoo]

I may be wrong, but it seems as though most, if not all of the
non-Iraqis killed supposedly by "terrorists"
in Iraq have held opinions that conflict with
Bush administration policy, i.e., they were openly opposed
to the war, the ongoing occupation, and/or the
treatment of innocent Iraqis at the hands of US forces.

Is Washington putting out hits on these people?

<snip>

Police said the body of Tom Fox, kidnapped in November with
three colleagues by a group calling itself the Swords of Truth,
was discovered on Thursday with the hands tied and a single
gunshot wound to the head at a rubbish dump in western Baghdad.

<snip>

'Fox, a father of two, expressed concern in an article the
day before his abduction about the dehumanization of Iraqis.

"Dehumanization seems to be the operative means of relating
to each other," he wrote. "U.S. forces in their quest to hunt
down and kill 'terrorists' are ... not only killing terrorists,
but also killing innocent Iraqis."

<snip>

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060311/ts_nm/iraq_dc

[gratuitous]

1. A provocative question

And one that I would like to see answered by the corrupt Bush administration. Although I didn't know Tom Fox I have been on a CPT delegation, and his death as a CPTer affects me on a very personal level.

[The Magistrate]

2. No, Sir, They Did Not

[pocket]

3. I assume that you have proof, since you are so certain.

They cerainly have a clear motive.

[The Magistrate]

4. They Have No Motive, Sir

Doubtless someone will trot out "Oh, it distracts from....". but that is nonesense in tha actual context of current events.

Moving about in a condition of civil war is dangerous, and particularly so for foreigners. Kidnapping for ransom is an industry in such situations, and there will always be some people who conclude anyone identifiabnle with an occupying power moving among the people is a spy and informant. The two things are a lethal combination, often.

It is a matter for sorrow this gentleman has been killed; he and his companions seem to have been pretty decent fellows.

[ButterflyBlood]

7. Nice to see someone with common sense

Unfortunately there apperas to be a surprisingly large number on DU that seem convinced that even in Iraq's current state, there are absolutely no terrorists there and all these kidnappings/beheadings are CIA black ops (for some obscurish purpose that no one can explain)

[guruoo]

8. I haven't seen anyone say they believed there were absolutely

no "terrorists".

[niyad]

9. what many of us believe, as does most of the world, is that there were a

lot FEWER of them before this corrupt bunch of thugs decided to invade the country.

[The Magistrate]

10. That Is Quite True, Ma'am

But also quite irrelevant to the matter at hand.

[Hutzpa]

40. Your honor, what do you believe is happening in Iraq?

My question to you is this, do you kill the hand that feeds you, maybe you can make me understand from a different angle.

[The Magistrate]

42. Do You Mean, Sir

That because these people were doing good for Iraqi people, as they most certainly were, why would any Iraqi do them harm?

If that is your meaning, the answers are simple enough.

A most basic one is that wretchedness among the people is of great benefit to any guerilla resistance group. It makes people desperate and eases recruiting. There is a reason power-lines and local fuel supplies are routinely struck, and ordinary trtaffic in goods greatly discommoded. People doing anything effective to ease the conditions of the people in their daily lives pose a grave threat to a guerrilla group.

Another is that hatred for foreigners is a natural buttress of any campaign against foreign occupation. It is a chief appeal in the guerrila armory. Foreign persons doing good put a human and friendly face on "the foreigner", and in doing so, do damage, at least locally, to the guerrilla movement.

Another is that, in any guerrilla campaign, outsiders moving among the people in friendly wise, getting close to many and securing real affection, will doubtless strike some among the "hard men" deeply involved in the guerrilla direction as simply skilled and dangerous spies. They will not be sophisticated enough in the foreigner's cuture to read the cues that would make the idea these people were such seem ludicrous to you or me, and of course, a skilled agent would be able to dissemble and present such cues falsely; that is part of the craft.

[guruoo]

11. Amen to that...

Best way to keep the 'long war' going eh?

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[guruoo]

17. I give up n/t

[ButterflyBlood]

5. Occam's Razor

The burden of proof is on the tinfoilers.

[redphish]

6. As f'ed up as this admin is , no I don't think so.

[cali]

13. No. Do you know how many kidnappings there are

everyday in Iraq? Up to 30. As the Magistrate pointed out, such activities are a by product of civil war.

Although I don't think you directly attribute Tom Fox's death to busho, nothing wrong with blaming him for creating the conditions that led to his death. That, in a way, is a far greater crime. Why won't that do?

[Igel]

15. Not all, however.

What they do all have in common is that they went out singly or in small groups, with few or no arms, in areas that were presumed dangerous.

Those that had views at odds with * presumably did so not just knowing that the areas were claimed to be dangerous, but because they were. They either assumed they'd have a special status (thus showing a lack of awareness as to how various subgroups in Iraqi society view outsiders of any stripe), or that the administration was incorrect. This group is simply more likely to have arranged for the situation that led to their capture.

The other option that would include both groups is that they figured the risk was worth the payoff, and gambled their lives. One group, for a point of philosophy, the other for money.

[QC]

16. Do you have any evidence for that? n/t

[guruoo]

18. Evidence to support what -a question?

What would you prefer-
fingerprints,
photographs,
documents,
DNA, or
a signed, and sealed admission of guilt from junior?
:rofl:

[QC]

20. How about just some possible reason why it would be to Bush's

advantage for yet one more thing to happen to show that Iraq is spinning out of control. That's certainly not much to ask. Or at least a white plastic chair--that would be really compelling evidence. :eyes:

I swear, every time somebody's dog shits on the rug, he or she rushes to DU to post a thread asking if Bush, the Illuminati, Opus Dei, and the Trilateral Commission caused it. It's the very same kind of thing we used to laugh at the freepers for doing.

[guruoo]

22. conspiracy theory

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theory
A conspiracy theory attempts to explain the cause of an event as a secret, and often deceptive, plot by a covert alliance rather than as an overt activity or as natural occurrence.

The term "conspiracy theory" is used by scholars and in popular culture to identify a type of folklore similar to an urban legend, having certain regular features, especially an explanatory narrative which is constructed with certain naive methodological flaws. The term is also used pejoratively to dismiss allegedly misconceived, paranoid or outlandish rumors.

Most people who have their theory or speculation labeled a "conspiracy theory" reject the term as prejudicial. Others use it in an attempt to evade an analysis of a subject.

[QC]

23. The fact that some conspiracies are real

doesn't mean that all of them are.

Again, how is it in Bush's interests, in a time when Iraq is clearly way out of control, to have something like this happen?

Since you have such a high regard for "analysis of a subject," how about some analysis? Without it, what you've got here is really no different from the old "Clinton Death List." Remember what a laugh that was?

[guruoo]

29. I might later...

right now I'm just too tired to really give a damn.

[guruoo]

25. Soldier Quits Army in Disgust at 'Illegal' American Tactics in Iraq

Soldier Quits Army in Disgust at 'Illegal' American Tactics in Iraq
By Sean Rayment
The Telegraph UK

Sunday 12 March 2006

An SAS soldier has refused to fight in Iraq and has left the Army over the "illegal" tactics of United States troops and the policies of coalition forces.

After three months in Baghdad, Ben Griffin told his commander that he was no longer prepared to fight alongside American forces.

He said he had witnessed "dozens of illegal acts" by US troops, claiming they viewed all Iraqis as "untermenschen" - the Nazi term for races regarded as sub-human.

<snip>

http://news.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/03/12/nsas12.xml

[QC]

27. Relevance?

[guruoo]

34. I'll let readers draw their

own conclusions.

[The Magistrate]

36. Most, Sir, Will Draw The Conclusion

That the thing you cited here has no relevance whatever to the allegation you are attempting to press.

[guruoo]

44. Oh yeah?

[The Magistrate]

45. Is That An Emu, Sir, Or An Ostrich?

A striking visage, in any case.

[Selatius]

19. Statistically, the short answer appears to be "no"

The vast majority of abductions have been by various rabbles within Iraq from militias with political axes to grind to simple crooks looking to score money; however, I wouldn't say the possibility that people have been abducted in black operations such as that operation by several British soldiers, arrested by that Shi'ite militia and subsequently freed by British forces, is at zero percent either. As of yet, I haven't seen any explanation about what those soldiers were doing dressed up to look like militiamen, since they were so poorly disguised that even the bona fide militias spotted them.

[Neil Lisst]

21. Washington certainly could have been behind it.

I'm amused at those who try to answer the question with certitude, as if the ghost of the Dulles brothers were secretly slipping them the correct answer. Anyone who says Yes or No is merely offering their opinion.

I say I don't know, but there's no reason to believe one way or another without more information.

As for speculation, I can speculate that some who are contracting with the bush administration could find reasons to abduct and kill Americans opposed to US occupation and oppression of Iraqis.

[guruoo]

24. Motive...

Same motive as the perpetrators of the anthrax letter attacks
on so-called "liberal" members of Congress, and the media?

BTW: What ever happened to that investigation?

[The Magistrate]

26. And What Is That Motive, Sir?

[guruoo]

31. Sorry, but I must be careful not to

stray from the guidelines.

[The Magistrate]

32. If You Have Some Suggestion Of A Motive, Sir

A motive in common with that behind the other incident you mention, by all means post it up.

[guruoo]

33. See

post 17, et al, sir, madam, whatever.

[Neil Lisst]

28. motive?

If an innocent Christian missionary is killed and dumped, that can be used to appeal in the US to the Christian right and to the public.

The presumption is that its those bad guys in Iraq. Certainly, it could be any of them.

[The Magistrate]

30. The Christian Right, Sir

Has little use for these fellows. They are serious peace-actvists, and their activities there had nothing to do with evangelizing. Limbaugh's reaction to the original report of their kidnapping, that he enjoyed it when leftists like this got a dose of reality, is a pretty good indicator how poorly the line you suggest would appeal in those quarters.

[Neil Lisst]

35. we will just have to agree to disagree

[guruoo]

37. Thank you

[The Magistrate]

38. Then, Mr. Lisst

You are not merely speculating, and actually think that is what happened?

[guruoo]

41. Another thing that never happened

Taranto claimed he has "seen no convincing evidence" of Swift Boat Vets' dishonest smear tactics

In his October 11 "Best of the Web Today" column, Wall Street Journal OpinionJournal.com editor James Taranto wrote that he has "seen no convincing evidence to back up the assumption, commonly accepted in the media, that the Swift Boat Veterans unfairly maligned" Sen. John Kerry (D-MA) during his 2004 presidential campaign.

http://mediamatters.org/items/200510120001

[The Magistrate]

43. Your Meaning Is Unclear, Sir

Could you please explain what relevance this has to my query to Mr. Lisst, or to the topic of this conversation, namely the question of whether the killing of this good man was procured by the United States government?

[guruoo]

39. I meant thank you

for the original!
Couldn't have said it better myself.

:patriot: