The Republican resurgence began with Newt's bare knuckled

[chieftain]

approach to debate supplanting the collegiality of Bob Michel.It has degraded our national discourse and helped neuter the few moderate Republicans who remain. But it has become the standard for current politics and is ignored at one's peril.
We will not regain power by seeking areas of agreement with the likes of Lugar, Collins and Shays.As has been said many times on this board we need to sharpen our rhetoric and aggressively point out differences with the GOP.
Feingold, Murtha and Dean have shown how to speak plainly and effectively about how bankrupt these crooks and thugs are. I am sick and tired of Democrats who still think that national politics is a debating society where referring to our adversaries as our good friends shows how magnanimous we are. What it really shows is how out of touch we are regarding the nature of the challenge we face.
Our presidential candidates will have a differing positions on multiple issues ranging from DLC types like Bayh and Biden to progressive Liberals such as Kucinich. Whoever we select this time has to be able to talk one on one with the American people not as if they are orating in the Roman Senate. He or she must understand that we are arrayed against people who will lie, cheat and steal to retain power.Our ultimate choice must be willing to call liars, liars; crooks, crooks ;and fools and incompetents, fools and incompetents. Sugar coated euphemisms will not turn the tide. An unvarnished dedication to telling the plain truth to the country about these fascists is our only hope.

[Cosmocat]

1. Absolutely ...

All this blather about Karl Rove ... Gingrich was the guy who put the fundamentals of nazi propoganda into the R handbook, literally ... And, most definitely, the Ds CANNOT get into power by playing gentlemanly ... These thugs have gotten where they are by taking advantage of the "fair play" nature of our political system ... They have used the the system against itself, and are CANNOT be beaten by civil discourse ... The gloves HAVE to come off ...

[blm]

2. So you're saying you WANT Dems to act just like Newt did

because it works?

I prefer that media not work to dumb down the entire Dem party the way it did to the Republicans. The people are just waking up to the fact that they have been hoodwinked by that "supposed" straight-talking talk.

And I, for one, support Feingold's censure but am DISGUSTED that after submitting it he chose to SELL it to the press by referring to impeachment as the "bad for the country" bogeyman in the effort to be viewed as moderate.

[chieftain]

5. Lieing is not only wrong, it is counterproductive for the reason

you point out. So I am not advocating that we become the left wing version of the lie machine that is the Republican Party. What I do support is recognizing that the paradigm for political debate has shifted dramatically and we need to adjust accordingly.
Calling Bush a fool and incompetent is true, while calling Kerry a fraudulent war hero was not. Calling Cheney a crook for the Haliburton deals is true, ridiculing Gore's boyhood farm work was a lie.I don't want to be them I want to beat them.
My real point is that we should not be tempering our criticism of these Fascists. We need to describe them for what they are rather than worrying whether Wolf Blitzer and Joe Klein think we are being too harsh . The Republicans came to power by viciously attacking and distorting personal aspects of our candidates while disguising the real effect of their policies. I believe we should blow the cover off the distortions by clearly delineating the chasm between or approach and theirs rather than trying to minimize what separates us.

[blm]

8. The media focuses on any heated statement from Dems and ignores the

thoughtful, more insightful criticisms because they hurt BushInc more and are harder to spin against Dems overall.

Dem priority should be to expose the GOP control over most corporate media, especially the broadcast media.

Cause even Dems are getting hooked into debating on their level, instead of exposing the fascist use of their methods.

[chieftain]

10. I am struggling to understand your point. Please give me an

example of a Democrat debating on the Republican level.

[blm]

13. It all comes down to how media spins - Murtha put up a more involved plan

than people on the left or the right noticed. Lefties applauded immediate withdrawal, which it wasn't, and the Bushies had their mediawhores defining it as cut and run, retreat, and surrender, which it wasn't.

This is a perfect example of how the media has dumbed down the left and the right. Dems SHOULDN'T argue on the soundbite terms of the right because REAL solutions are never found in jingoistic soundbites.

I think Dems SHOULD speak to Americans as if they can get it - because many of them are waking up to danger of the faux simplicity of the soundbite. I don't want the Dem answer to that awakening to be an adapted version of Republican-type campaigning.

Dems need to make exposing GOP control of media a priority - then we wouldn't need to concern ourselves with modeling our arguments after the GOP. Looks to me like their success with this tactic has worn itself out.

[chieftain]

14. I don't disagree that the corporate media spins a

pro republican message, but I think the way to cut through their distortions is to speak clearly and concisely about those things that we are in disagreement with the Republicans. If the media is as totally corrupted as you suggest, making a frontal attack on their lies is unlikely to get much air time.
I am still curious for an example of example of a Democrat stooping to the Republican tactics you descry.

[EST]

3. Exactly.

It is gratifying to see more and more voices raising these points.
we are arrayed against people who will lie, cheat and steal to retain power.Our ultimate choice must be willing to call liars, liars; crooks, crooks ;and fools and incompetents, fools and incompetents. Sugar coated euphemisms will not turn the tide. An unvarnished dedication to telling the plain truth to the country about these fascists is our only hope.

[Mythsaje]

4. We need plain speakers...not orators.

People who can connect to the people, not connect to the elite. Bush played the illusion card, Clinton did it because it's a reflection of who he is.

We need someone with brains who can reach out effectively, who can appear to be a "regular guy." This doesn't preclude women, of course, but I think this is a part of the battle that's going to be harder for them.

[Barking Spider]

6. Newt and his propoganda tool of choice -

The Limbaugh Lie Machine.

[PsN2Wind]

7. We can't continue to nominate candidates

that campaign as if they are afraid they will hurt their opponents feelings. Much as Al Gore backed off after the first debate because of the media saying he was too rough on Dubya. He was showing the voters of this country how little was contained in the other suit on the stage. But he let the wingers and their cohorts in the media to push him into "playing nice". The election should have not be close enough to steal but backing away from challenging Dubya allowed the Repubs to credit Dubya with gravitas that he frankly did not have.

[sendero]

9. I couldn't agree more..

... and I've been beating that drum since I got here. The culture and climate of the country have changed, not just in politics, in EVERYTHING. Movies, television, comedy, you name it, there is no room any more for the "friendly disagreement".

Americans tune out wimpy, evasive, noncommital rhetoric, and Democrats seem to be much better at that than Republicans are. Republicans figured out long ago that you say what you say forcefully and with conviction, and no matter how factually or logically ridiculous it is, a large number of Americans will buy it.

It's too bad, but that is the way it is.

[Cocoa]

11. have Murtha or Feingold ever called the republicans corrupt?

Feingold for years has been calling the campaign finance system "corrupting," but I don't recall him ever calling the republicans corrupt.

Nor Murtha.

Howard Dean probably has done so. Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid certainly have done so.

You cite Murtha and Feingold as the role models, but it seems to me that Pelosi and Reid are the ones that are really doing what you are calling for.

[chieftain]

12. I'm not certain that calling Republicans corrupt is the sole

way you can qualify as a straight talker. Feingold's censure motion and Murtha's concise opposition to the war strike me as prime examples of how we need to speak during the upcoming campaigns. I am happy to include Harry Reid in the list of effective speakers against the Republican lie machine. Pelosi sounds to me like she is on the floor of the House rather than participating in a conversation with an individual. But I do agree that she has been hard hitting.
My main concern is our presidential candidates. I want two things from them in terms of communication. I want someone who is forceful about the significant substantive differences between the parties. But I also want someone whose speech patterns are closer to what people are used to hearing at their kitchen table rather than something that might have been declaimed in a lecture hall.

[Cocoa]

15. one thing that makes Feingold attractive is that he doesn't name-call

you won't find him calling the republicans fascists, not in a million years.

He doesn't engage in hyperbole. He doesn't overstate his case. Watch that press conference he gave a few days ago, the definition of straight talk.

[chieftain]

16. I think Feingold is a very attractive candidate. He is

principled, forceful and understandable.
But we and he should not hesitate to tell the truth about the Republicans even if older concepts of civility are bruised.
Can anyone disagree that Bush and his underlings are incompetent? Iraq and Katrina are merely the most obvious examples of that trait.
Can anyone doubt that Bush and his cohorts are liars given what was said to justify this horrendous debacle in Iraq and the unconscionable attacks on Kerry?
Can anyone really say that thuggery is an unfair description of a regime that hijacks the Secret Service to hustle American Citizens into " Free Speech Zones" so that Bush will not be troubled by seeing people that disagree with him.
Can anyone make the case that the Bush machine has not demonstrated ample fascist tendencies by subverting honest elections with fixed vote counting machinery, aggressively hampering minorities their opportunity to vote and facilitating an unprecedented concentration of media power in the hands of their monied friends.
It is a shame that to win we will have to tell the unbridled truth about these crooks and that it will result in an additional coarsening of our politics. But to act like this incarnation of the GOP is a group that adheres to any semblance of fair play is folly.