Christmas Eve Poll: Dean vs. Dean

[TrueAmerican]

Interesting poll here.
http://slate.msn.com/id/2088207/
Flip: In 1992, Dean said, "I don't support the death penalty for two reasons. One, you might have the wrong guy, and, two, the state is like a parent. Parents who smoke cigarettes can't really tell their children not to smoke and be taken seriously. If a state tells you not to murder people, a state shouldn't be in the business of taking people's lives." The Rutland Herald, a Vermont newspaper, says that in those days "Dean was an outspoken opponent of the death penalty."

Flop: In early June 2003, Dean issued a statement declaring, "As governor, I came to believe that the death penalty would be a just punishment for certain, especially heinous crimes, such as the murder of a child or the murder of a police officer. The events of Sept. 11 convinced me that terrorists also deserve the ultimate punishment."

[Wonk]

1. http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/000419.html

http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/000419.html

Sunday,ÊJune 15, 2003
Dean's Position on the Death Penalty

The Rutland Herald story of June 15 headlined "Dean Aligns with Bush on Death Penalty", asserts that Governor Dean changed his position on the death penalty due to his presidential campaign and that his position is now aligned with President Bush.

Both the headline and the assertions are false. Here are the facts:

Governor Dean opposes the death penalty except in very limited circumstances involving extreme and heinous crimes.

When he became governor in 1991, Howard Dean opposed the death penalty in all cases. In 1997, after a number of brutal crimes involving the murder of children, including the abduction, rape and murder of 12-year old Polly Klass in California, Dean spoke publicly about his reconsideration of his position on the death penalty.

After careful deliberation, Dean concluded that the death penalty may be an appropriate punishment in limited circumstances such as the murder of a child or a police officer. Finally, as a result of the mass murder that took place on September 11, 2001, he concluded that the death penalty should also be available in cases of terrorists who take human life.

It is preposterous to suggest that Howard Dean and President Bush share the same position on this issue. A Dean administration would administer the death penalty carefully and sparingly, unlike the Bush/Ashcroft Justice Department. Dean would instruct his Attorney General on day one to evaluate the federal death penalty system to ensure that it is applied fairly and reliably. He would also sign into law pending legislation, authored by Senator Leahy, that will strengthen protections against unjust imposition of the death penalty.

[TrueAmerican]

3. So he now supports the Death Penalty.

And he didn't before. Thanks for clearing that up.

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Padraig18]

7. You've never reconsidered an opinion you hold,...

...in light of new information? :eyes:

[Wonk]

8. Binary thinking on your part. It's not that simple.

[Cry Freedom]

2. ?

Flip

Flop

Plop

Thud




:yourock:



:kick: :kick:

[poskonig]

4. Y'know....

You guys are asking for a poll between the anti-war Clark and the pro-war Clark! :silly:

[w4rma]

6. Clark on whether he'd have voted on the IWR

Clark Says He Would Have Voted for War
…
General Clark said that he would have advised members of Congress to support the authorization of war but that he thought it should have had a provision requiring President Bush to return to Congress before actually invading. Democrats sought that provision without success.

"At the time, I probably would have voted for it, but I think that's too simple a question," General Clark said.

A moment later, he said: "I don't know if I would have or not. I've said it both ways because when you get into this, what happens is you have to put yourself in a position — on balance, I probably would have voted for it."
…
"I want to clarify — we're moving quickly here," Ms. Jacoby said. "You said you would have voted for the resolution as leverage for a U.N.-based solution."

"Right," General Clark responded. "Exactly."

General Clark said he saw his position on the war as closer to that of members of Congress who supported the resolution — Representative Richard A. Gephardt of Missouri and Senators Joseph I. Lieberman of Connecticut, John Kerry of Massachusetts and John Edwards of North Carolina — than that of Howard Dean, the former Vermont governor who has been the leading antiwar candidate in the race.

Still, asked about Dr. Dean's criticism of the war, General Clark responded: "I think he's right. That in retrospect we should never have gone in there. I didn't want to go in there either. But on the other hand, he wasn't inside the bubble of those who were exposed to the information."
…
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/19/politics/campaigns/19CLAR.html

Clark Explains Statement on Authorization for Iraq War
…
"I never would have voted for war," he said here this afternoon in an interview and in response to a question after a lecture at the University of Iowa. "What I would have voted for is leverage. Leverage for the United States to avoid a war. That's what we needed to avoid a war."

Speaking about the resolution on Thursday, General Clark said, "At the time, I probably would have voted for it, but I think that's too simple a question."

He then added: "I don't know if I would have or not. I've said it both ways, because when you get into this, what happens is you have to put yourself in a position. On balance, I probably would have voted for it."
…
About Iraq, he said "There was never an imminent threat," and called the war "a major blunder."

"We're not the sort of `you're with us or against' kind of people," he said.

"We're a come-and-join-with-us kind of people," he told a crowd of 1,000 in the main lounge of the Iowa Memorial Union. "Americans know in their hearts that you don't make our country safer by erecting walls to keep others out. You make us safer by building bridges to reach out.

"We also have to recognize that force should be used only as a last resort, when all other means have failed."
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/20/politics/campaigns/20CLAR.html

Clark on whether he'd have voted on the IWR and Dean's response
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=401401

[Killarney]

9. There's 11 years difference there

It's not like he's flip flopping a month later. A person can change their mind over 11 years. None of the other candidates have changed their minds from past thoughts? Clark used to be a Republican! It's OK for people to change their mind on issues. I know I have changed my mind on a few things in the past 11 years.

[jjmalonejr]

10. This is as much a flip-flop as...

...Kucinich's reconsideration of abortion rights.

It IS possible for your views to evolve over time.

I'm not a Dean supporter, but I don't see anything here that bothers me particularly.

[jjmalonejr]

11. Dean's flip-flopping on the Iraq resolution...

...while pretending he hasn't, now THAT bothers me.

[maddezmom]

12. so he is for the death penalty?

I think that Clark, may hold the same views...not sure. Anyone know for sure. For the record, I'm not for the death penalty.

[Orangepeel]

13. If I wanted a president who couldn't reconsider his ideas...

then I'd probably be happy with *, who never, ever, believes that he could have been wrong about anything.

Dean reconsidered his position based on circumstances. He also changes his mind when new facts come to light. I like that in a leader.

[Jerseycoa]

14. I don't agree with him much

But I do on this and it was a change for me, too.

"a just punishment for certain, especially heinous crimes, such as the murder of a child or the murder of a police officer. The events of Sept. 11 convinced me that terrorists also deserve the ultimate punishment."

[K-W]

15. Becoming unenlightened

Just what we need more punative approach crime prevention.

[billbuckhead]

16. I've never seen a candidate with more contradictory positions

I remember some RepuKKK on Crossfire laughing about how Dean can attack from the left and the right. I think this is only true because the press leaves him do it like they did Raygun and Chimpy. He's got the "teflon" package for now.

[bitchkitty]

17. This is

bullshit. He says "as Governor, I came to believe.." when describing his change of mind since his stance over 10 years ago, and you're spinning that as a flip flop?

What is your agenda? Don't fucking answer that, I already know.
I lived through the Arkansas project and the same forum spam campaigns against Clinton and Gore. I feel like I'm reliving those days, I guess what we're seeing now is the Vermont project.

[JohnKleeb]

18. anti of course

Do 40% of you really support the DP?