GEN Zinni comparing Clinton and bush SECDEF's

[BOSSHOG]

General Zinni on Franken today said that when he was on active duty as a four star, Clinton's SECDEF and the Chairman of the JCS (General Shelton) rounded up all the four stars and told them they wanted feedback and if one of us disagreed we were encouraged to speak up. He said on one occasion he had expressed a differing opinion of the JCS and the SECDEF flew him to Camp David to brief PRESIDENT CLINTON.

Professionalism, humility, thoughtful discourse, integrity, team work and team building. Not an ounce of it in bush's administration but limbaugh thinks he's just a fucking great military leader.

[MadMaddie]

1. Limpballs is chewing the Oxycontin like candy...

his brain is mush....

Clinton actually picked staff that understood the importance of their roles and listening to their people....team work and team building...something this administration has no interest in....

this administration is out of control....I find it interesting how they are openly attacking the respected retired military brass....this is starting to backfire on them...if they are willing to do this to the brass...what do the foot soldiers have to look forward to?

[BOSSHOG]

2. And at least two of the Generals cuffing rumsfeld about

were picked by "civilian leadership" for promotions to Lieutenant General. One day they are giving them another star for obviously meritorious reasons, the next day they are trashing them. What a crew.

"Listening to their people." In Navy leadership training, listening was cited as the most effective form of communication. Big Dog was a great listener, ergo a great communicator. bush is an idiot and without a doubt, the worst president ever.

[MadMaddie]

3. Indeed.....

How are you and your wife doing? Is it getting hot?

I hope all is well....

:hi:

[BOSSHOG]

4. Hot and dry

We need rain bad. There has been a burn ban all along the coast for quite some time. We are doing fine except for not being able to get rid of alot of brush so far. Thanks for asking.

[MadMaddie]

5. You are most welcome...

[chaumont58]

6. Good minds, secure minds, can stand differing opinions

Clinton had/has a good mind and can stand, even seeks different opinions. The military that worked directly with him understood.

[BOSSHOG]

7. Listening. The most effective form of communications

A supervisor should always listen to the person who does the job to develop solutions to problems. bush is too damn proud to listen anybody although he does say he relies on his field commanders. If that's true why are we going in the direction he has charted? Obviously another LIE.

[underpants]

8. The difference is that THEY already had this worked up and ready to go

THEY (the Bush administration, basically Dick and Rummy) already had this "plan" worked up and were just going to plug and play once they got in there. The brass is of no use to them. They know everything there is to know about Iraq, the Middle East, Persia, etc. Wolfowitz has a masters or a PhD in Middle east philosophy or something. They had YEARS to create this and since they are so smart anyway they didn't need anyone to tell them different.

The irony here (we should be used to this by now) is that they clearly and deliberately did everything they accused the "Clintonistas" of doing (through their mouthpiece network).

What's his name the last Chair of the Joint Chiefs- who couldn't get to a microphone fast enough to defend Rummy - got the Chair because of his support of Star Wars. He ran the Air Force model of it (the Navy had one too). That seems to be his main qualification.

[trogdor]

9. Retired generals who consult for Fox News...

...are unanimously in Rummy's corner.

[underpants]

10. That's pretty much a requirement of the job isn't it?

:rofl:

Here read this

[LandOLincoln]

12. Absolutely, unequivocally WRONG.

"Retired generals who consult for Fox News...
...are unanimously in Rummy's corner."




Two words:

Wesley Clark.

[Jai4WKC08]

15. To add to what Land of Lincoln said

If you think General Wesley Clark is supporting Rummy (or even if you don't), you really MUST hear the "alert" podcast Clark released yesterday, called "Integrity and Dissent." You can either get it with iTunes (free) or download it directly from the WesPAC website (also free) at http://securingamerica.com/clarkcasts

It's really not very long, but to give a flavor for what he's saying, a short excerpt:

"The principle of accountability is deeply ingrained in the military chain of command. It starts at the bottom. If you're a soldier and you don't do PT, you're accountable for that. If you're a captain and your mission is not accomplished, you're held accountable for that. If you're a battalion commander and you can't get your organization in shape, you're held accountable for that. Why should it be any different at the top level of the national command authority? Why shouldn't the people at the top of the chain of command be held accountable in the same manner that people are held accountable elsewhere?"

And his conclusion:

"And so I welcome the fact that these Generals have had the courage to speak out. I spoke out in 2003. I ran for office, because I believed then that the decisions were wrong. Now more and more people are seeing it. More and more people are speaking out. I welcome it. I think this country's on a road to nowhere under the leadership of President George Bush, and I'm incredibly encouraged that many others who have served in the United States Armed Forces with me see it also, because maybe we'll get through to the American people. This administration has to be changed. We've got to get America back on the right path for a secure future."

[Jack Rabbit]

11. Clinton had his faults, but arrogance was not one of them

Clinton was well aware that, although a Rhodes Scholar, he didn't have all the answers or even all the questions.

BTW, lurking Freepers, be prepared to drop your jaws: I'll give Reagan high marks for that, too. He knew he wasn't the sharpest pencil in the box and made sure he listened to people who were sharper than he. I didn't always like the decision that was reached, but I will approve of his seeking out other views.

Bush may listen, but he makes sure that who he listens to shares his opinions and conclusions. He may as well just talk to himself (which I think he does).

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

13. Yeah but but wasn't Clinton's defense sec. some poetry writing

fruity pants? I mean Donnie R is a man's man. He works all day standing up. He is such a tough mutha' he even scares me sitting all the way over here.

[FrenchieCat]

14. There's a difference between Clinton and Bush....but I don't know if it's

that good for Clinton....and I know it's bad for Bush.

Clinton came into office averting the name calling of the Pukes as "draft Dodger" due to his lack of service in Vietnam (the fact that he was in college and something about visiting Russia, when others were serving).

The GOP assailed Clinton at every turn, and although we were at peace at the time of his election, Clinton cowed from this name calling. He appointed a Republican Secretary of Defense. Not something he had to do, but something he felt he needed to do, to give him credibility with the military and to prove his worth as Commander in Chief. Did it work? Well kind of, but not really.

If you observed Clinton's tenure on military matters, some of the sore points that stick out are Somalia and Rwanda. Somalia was the disaster that kept Clinton cowed to the point of where he allowed 800,000 Rwandans to be machete to death by his non-actions shortly thereafter. In reference to Bosnia and Kosovo, Clinton could have also dealt with those situation with more courage, as he was hamstrung, and due to it, Kosovo was bombed at high altitudes (as to NOT "chance" U.S. military casualties/the Republicans were against going into Kosovo and kept talking about the Somalia soldier casualties) in order to insure 100% no U.S. soldier would be killed...cause Clinton could not afford the bad PR that would come of it (remember "Wag the Dog" and "War for Monica?")

More civilians in the Kosovo bombings were killed than was required (Approx 500).
I have researched this......cause I know that Wes Clark felt that the high altitude bombings were NOT really the best war plan (something he learned first hand in Vietnam) and said so at the time. Clark ordered Apaches and "Boots on the ground" war plans (that were never used)and because of his objections over the Cohen led High altitude bombing war plans, was retired early by Cohen. Clinton claims he didn't know that Clark had been retired early until too late....and that may be the case...but what that occurence did show was that Clinton wasn't really that much in charge at all....and it was rather, Sec. of def. Cohen calling the shots.....along with Gen. Hugh Shelton, both who voted for Bush II in 2000 and in 2004.

Also, let's not forget the pressure put on Clinton to pass the Iraqi Liberation act....which was in response to the PNACers famous letter pressuring Clinton to do something about Iraq. The U.N. sanctions levied on the Iraqis with support of the Clinton Administration have been documented for the fatal damage they did to the Iraqi civilian population...

In the case of Bush, he is the exact opposite....arrogant to a fault, as opposed to timid and demure to a "T"....and he and his Sec. of Defense don't and won't listen to anybody.

So there you have it. One president so cowed until it was really someone else running the show, for the most part.....who he backed as long as it helped him present a postive PR picture to the voting public.....

and One President so stubborn and willful until he won't listen to shit, cause he's got an ideology to enforce.

So in this particular case, neither approach of either President was/is a good one, if you ask me. :shrug:

[FrenchieCat]

16. And don't forget that Zinni statement on Bush last election.....

is that is actions MIGHT make it hard for Zinnin to vote for Bush. Did he, or didn't he....in the end?

[Gloria]

17. I heard this and was glad Zinni was so clear in his praise of how

things were run under Clinton. Spread it around...