Do Democrats Want to Lose the Elections? It Sure Seems that Way.

[Bjorn Against]

The last two Presidential elections have been stolen.

Rigged voting machines with no paper trail are being used in states across the country.

And what do the Democrats do about it. Nothing. They are having their elections stolen from them left and right, and rather than calling for investigations they just sit and ignore the issue.

They are too afraid of being labeled conspiracy theorists to stand up and say that is corruption in this government and that corruption is destroying our democracy.

The Democrats will win a few seats in November but only because things are trending so much towards Republicans that they can not possibly rig the vote so much that they could keep all their seat without raising suspicions. The Republicans will try to be careful not to overreach too far, but they still will rig it enough to keep several seats they would have lost otherwise.

The more we talk about election fraud however, the more scared the Republicans will be about using this tactic. If the Democrats loudly send a notice that they are watching, and they want other people to help them watch then maybe we can help stop these crimes against our democracy.

Those who are silent will pay a penalty in November, and our democracy will once again be dealt a serious blow.

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[brentspeak]

3. Who's "they"?

Are you sure you're on the correct website? This is Democratic Underground, not the "kick-out-the-Democrats" Underground.

[Lib Grrrrl]

9. Yeah, Well

I agree with him. If they are not working for PROGRESSIVE CAUSES, if they are not REPRESENTING US, if they are knuckling under and capitulating to the destructive agenda of Bush, what difference does it make WHAT party they are? They are destroying the country, and they must go. We need REAL DEMOCRATS who will stand up for REAL PROGESSIVE CAUSES and FOR THE AMERICAN WORKER, and if they don't then they have forgotten what being a Democrat was supposed to mean, and they can hit the road as far as I am concerned.

[brentspeak]

13. You "agree with him".

Since you agree with him, maybe you can answer for him: Who's "they"?

[Lib Grrrrl]

17. THEY

are the ones who call themselves Democrats, and fail to ACT LIKE DEMOCRATS. THEY have forgotten what being a Democrat was supposed to mean....looking out for the american worker, representing the little guy, advancing progressive causes...acting like an actual opposition Party in the face of a fascist regime...things like that.

[BigYawn]

38. Since when did the democratic party become SOCIALIST WORKERS party?

May be we need to go back to the ideology of JFK and
BJC who supported businesses, cut taxes, and made
deals such as NAFTA to increase trade. Then we can start
winning again.

[Popol Vuh]

45. Since when did sticking up for the working family become a SOCIALIST party

Maybe we need to go back to the ideology of FDR who supported regulating businesses, progressive taxes, and made deals such as OPA (Office of Price Administration) to increase the wealth and purchasing power of a broad based middle-class. Then maybe not only can we start winning again......but maybe also we can start affording to live on single family incomes again and reduce the stress that struggling financially puts on a society causing increased crime, etc.

[Lib Grrrrl]

47. Damned Good Question - I'd Like Someone To Answer That One Too!!

since when DID sticking up for woring families become a Socialist thing, and not a Democrat thing?

The way I saw it, always, was that the Democrats were all about the working people, the Republicans were all about the supremely wealthy.

[Popol Vuh]

50. Hi Lib Grrrl

:hi:


I don't believe you'll find anyone who's a Democrat who'll honestly answer that question. But you know? I am curious. I wonder how many Democrats we have who are against FDR. Here, allow me to post an excerpt from his January 11th speech in 1944.

Franklin D. Roosevelt

“The Economic Bill of Rights”



We have come to a clear realization of the fact that true individual freedom cannot exist without economic security and independence. “Necessitous men are not free men.” People who are hungry and out of a job are the stuff of which dictatorships are made.

In our day these economic truths have become accepted as self-evident. We have accepted, so to speak, a second Bill of Rights under which a new basis of security and prosperity can be established for all—regardless of station, race, or creed.

Among these are:

The right to a useful and remunerative job in the industries or shops or farms or mines of the nation;

The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation;

The right of every farmer to raise and sell his products at a return which will give him and his family a decent living;

The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies at home or abroad;

The right of every family to a decent home;

The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health;

The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accident, and unemployment;

The right to a good education.

All of these rights spell security. And after this war is won we must be prepared to move forward, in the implementation of these rights, to new goals of human happiness and well-being.

America’s own rightful place in the world depends in large part upon how fully these and similar rights have been carried into practice for our citizens.

[Lib Grrrrl]

51. God, I Love FDR!!

The man speaks my language!! THIS IS WHAT A TRUE DEMOCRAT IS SUPPOSED TO BE ABOUT, GANG!!

When I talk about REAL DEMOCRATS, and what they should be standing for, and WHAT IT MEANS TO BE A DEMOCRAT...this is exactly what I am talking about!! EXACTLY!!

And I know no one will honestly answer the question...that's why I asked it...as I'm sure you were astute enough to figure out.

[BigYawn]

55. Huge difference between the FDR period Vs Modern era...

FDR inherited a country mired in deep recession.
He had to take drastic steps to help the cadre of
unemployed who had no safety net for help.

Things are much different now. Personal incomne in 2005
is a new record high, corporate income in 2005 is a new
record high, home ownership and the value of those homes
are at new record high, unemployment in 1st quarter of
2006 is at record low going back many decades.

That is not to say financial problems do not exist.
Federal deficit is at record high, treasury debt is at
record high, personal debt is at record high, gasoline
prices are escalating, Iraq war is a big burden on the
budget.

How exactly do you propose helping the middle class?
Wage and price controls? Minimum wage of $20/hour?
Closing off of all imported goods from China? Please
enunciate the exact steps you would take as a president.

[Popol Vuh]

56. Not a huge difference between the period before FDR.

What do you propose? Spreading the wealth out to more accurately reflect what people's labor has contributed, and protecting our markets from exploitation from off-shoring? Or concentrating the wealth with policies such as the so-called trickle down economics myth, and deregulated free trade myth?

Things are much different now. Personal incomne in 2005 is a new record high,

Oh really? Then care to explain why two income households cannot provide what a single income household could after FDR's reforms?

I might not be an economist but I understand why people are not as good off. Its not because people's labor today isn't as valuable as it was back then. But rather, just like in our country before, and in countries like Mexico today, business policies such as "deregulation" (double speak for no corporate oversight), and "supply side" economics (a.k.a. voodoo economics) achieve one thing. They transfer wealth from the working class to the rich greedy class.

Now you couple that with our ongoing trend of increasing the money supply grater than our increased out-put of goods and services (devaluing our dollar), then you can see why today people might be earning more dollars, but are at the same time less able to provide what their grandparents did.

Throw in the outsourcing of our manufacturing industries and replace them with lower wage service jobs such as wallmart jobs. Then you'll have us where we are today.

These things we face today are not much different than what we faced prior to FDR. We need to regulate businesses --and-- put an end to inflating our money supply grater than our increased out-put.

If I asked you to remove all of our traffic rules and laws on our public highways ("deregulation"). I bet you'd think that is absurd, and of course it would be. But the principle is the same with removing corporate oversight. It is absurd to think that we can rely on (greedy) individuals to operate truthfully and honestly for the interest of the public as they would for themselves.

unemployment in 1st quarter of 2006 is at record low going back many decades.

I'd be willing to bet anything that number doesn't reflect two important factors. The amount of people who have been unemployed long enough to no longer be on unemployment and thus no longer counted --and-- how many of the people who are employed are now employed at wages and benefits far less than what they had before their jobs got outsourced.

That is not to say financial problems do not exist. Federal deficit is at record high, treasury debt is at record high, personal debt is at record high, gasoline prices are escalating, Iraq war is a big burden on the budget.

All these are symptoms of devaluing a currency by over inflating its supply with respect to goods and services --and-- a transference of wealth from the majority of the people into the hands of a few. The Iraq and Afghanistan wars are a necessary consequence to maintain control of how a vital basic industrial commodity is traded. Our dollar is so inflated, that it could spell disaster if a vital product such as oil was switched to being traded by a different currency.

Now since you mentioned JFK in one of your previous posts. Allow me to say that one of the things I'd do is what he also did. I'd implement JFK's Executive Order 11110. However, I'd amend it so that it didn't use a metal standard, rather it is better to use a fiat standard.

This and I'd bring back regulation to protect our markets from businesses exploiting off-shoring and protect labor from being ripped off out of fair compensation for their property because that is what a person's labor is.....it is their property. It is not to be valued like some commodity such as a cow or a chicken. It is that person's contribution with respect to the value of the goods or services they created.

"The labor of a human being is not a commodity or article of commerce" U.S.C. 15, 17

[BigYawn]

60. Thank you for that long and thoughtful response...

I think the days of unskilled/manual labor earning
good wages are long gone. The days of union members
earning about the same as a college graduate are long
gone.

I agree with you life is not easy for people with not
many marketable skills. But, people with skills, such
as college graduates with technical/legal/medical/accounting/business degrees are
getting very good wages. Small businesses are at record
levels. Women own more businesses than ever before.
so, my point is you can do OK in today's economy if
you work hard to educate yourself and acquire skills.

I see all the deluxe homes being built and bought all
around me, I see newer cars all around me, and it is
hard to believe people are hurting.

My biggest worry is that some time in future, the debt
levels are going to cause a major upheaval. But we are
not there yet. Income tax receipts by the US Treasury
shows that we are in a prosperous period.

So what do we do with people unable to acquire marketable skills? I frankly don't know. But I do
know that taxing the others to provide the non-earners
will not help us, it will hurt us and hurt us bad. I
grew up under socialism, and from first hand experience
I know it reduces everyone's standard of living to the
lowest denominator.

[bobbieinok]

62. those with good educations can get jobs UNLESS they are outsourced

[BigYawn]

63. Only those who do not stay 1 step ahead of competition

which in this case is outsourcing to other countries.
Computer software is a good example. In the beginning,
we in the US were a step (or two) ahead of the rest of
the world. But as a computer software developer myself,
I know first hand that learning software codes is not
all that difficult, and millions in India have become
proficient in that field. With the advent of internet,
it has become easier to use trans-oceanic skills available
abroad. Standard of living can only go up when we all can
buy goods and services at lower prices. Building a wall
around our shores will most certainly reduce our standard
of living. Nobody said it will be easy to make a good
living in today's world.

Bottom line is, US still attracts more immigrants than
any other country. There is a reason for that. This is
still the land of OPPORTUNITY. We should not convert it
into land of guaranteed lower but equal standard of living
for everybody.

[Lib Grrrrl]

58. Hello!!!

Did you know long-term unemployed people, like me...are no longer COUNTED as "unemployed?" As soon as you stop receiving bennies, because you ran them out...you are no longer "unemployed."

I've been unemployed now for over a year!

Did you know that FORECLOSURES ARE AT AN ALL TIME HIGH?!?!?

This shit doesn't happen in a good economy!
What fucking world are YOU living in?
This economy FUCKING SUCKS

Nominal income may be up for workers...but ACTUAL INCOME (aka BUYING POWER) is way, way, way down!!

God in Heaven, do you get your talking points from FAUX NEWS or what, dude?

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jonnyblitz]

30. thank you!!!

I don't know what in hell is wrong with people. :eyes: :thumbsup:

[booley]

2. I wish I could disagree

But I am hard pressed to think of what could really stop the Cons from stealign another election.

every year since 2000 they have gotten away with it and gotten better at it each time.

[brentspeak]

4. What are you talking about?

Several Democrats have tried to hold hearings on the matter, but the Republicans control all the committees, preventing all attempts at investigations.

You are aware that it's the Republicans, not the Democrats, who currently hold the keys to the rooms within the Capitol building?

[Bjorn Against]

7. I am well aware of that, but...

They could be talking about this issue, and they are not. How often do you see a Democrat on TV say anything about the Diebold machines? Sure Barbara Boxer stood up and the Congressional Black Caucus stood up, but where was their support? The Democrats have not done nearly enough on this issue.

[dorktv]

5. Stop being so fucking negative, go out and campaign.

Make it so it is IMPOSSIBLE for the vote to be stolen by getting everyone out to vote for Dems.

Geez.

[brentspeak]

6. Thanks for the sanity

The "lets defeat the Democratic party" contingent has been allowed to run amuck on DU. People who should be banned for trying to rally DU against Democrats are not being banned like they should.

[Bjorn Against]

10. Where did I say "lets defeat the Democratic Party"?

In fact where did I say anything even remotely close to that? Stop misrepresenting my words.

I don't know where you come off saying I should be banned for speaking my opinion.

[brentspeak]

23. I should have been more specific

I don't think your post is "ban worthy", but the generic "Democrats" that you use is nevertheless extremely annoying and counterproductive. You already acknowledged that some Democrats have tried to address the issue, but it took me to point that out in the first place.

[Lib Grrrrl]

43. You Didn't

And I don't know where he thinks he gets off, either. Which is why he's number 9 on my ignore list.

[Lib Grrrrl]

11. That's A Load Of CRAP!!

Are you suggesting we should support someone who CALLS themself a Democrat, and fails to ACT like a Democrat? Do you support Zell Miller? :wtf:

[brentspeak]

12. Is Zell Miller still in the Senate?

That "load of CRAP!!" argument just went down the crap-chute.

[Lib Grrrrl]

15. Actually

I don't know and I don't really give a shit...i'm not from Georgia. Fact is...if he is gone...see how much I missed his sorry ass?

[brentspeak]

19. If you didn't even know that Zell Miller is no longer in the Senate

- and I'm from NJ - then your opinions on the topic of "Democrats" have about as much substance as a fluffernutter sandwich.

[Lib Grrrrl]

20. Since You Advocate BANNING People

you have just been banned from MY DU. Welcome to my ignore list.

might I note you have joined a very exclusive club? Very few people here piss me off badly enough to get added to my ignore list as fast as you have. In fact, I think you may hold the record...three posts, and you pissed me off bad enough to Ignore you already....

ON EDIT - I have, counting you, nine people total on my ignore list. Looking over the names, I do not recall anyone who ever managed to piss me off as quickly as you did. congrats.

[Selatius]

16. Nice dodge...

But you didn't answer the question. If Zell Miller were still an office holder and ran as a Democrat, what would your advice be?

[Lib Grrrrl]

18. My Advice?

oh, never mind...you addressed it to the guy who thinks we all should be banned...not to me...

[brentspeak]

21. My advice would be to find a primary challenger

and if the challenger failed, then simply don't give Miller any support whatsoever. And in the extremely rare case where the Republican is essentially a liberal who's not beholden to the GOP -- support that Republican (like Pete McCloskey in California).

There are currently NO Democrats who are similar to Zell Miller. Even Joe Lieberman, who stupidly supports the Iraq War, is the polar opposite to Miller on almost every other issue.

[Lib Grrrrl]

14. You Are So...OUT OF IT!!!

Who ever has tried to rally DU against Democrats? No one. We just want our Democrats TO ACTUALLY FUCKING ACT LIKE DEMOCRATS!! Is that so much to ask? That our Party actually ACT LIKE A FUCKING LEGITIMATE OPPOSITION PARTY??

Don't give me shit, the Repukes managed, for years, to act like a real opposition Party when they were out of power. All we are saying is we want Democrats in office WHO ACTUALLY FUCKING ACT LIKE DEMOCRATS!!

Is that so bad? We are fucking frustrated with the apparent lack of any opposition from our own Party towards this fucking fascist regime!!

Don't you get that?

But here you are suggesting we be BANNED for venting our frustration that our elected officials seem to have forgotten how to act like a real opposition party...and how to act like REAL DEMOCRATS...that they seem to have forgotten what being a Democrat actually MEANS???

Hey, just because someone CALLS themselves a Democrat doesn't make them so. Zell Miller, Joe Lieberman, and yes, Hillary Rodham Clinton...are NOT my idea of REAL DEMOCRATS!!

Bush calls himself a Christian. do you think he really is? Does he actually ACT like a Christian??

[dorktv]

42. Dislike it so much, run for office yourself. I did and am.

It is NOT that hard to do.

[dorktv]

40. I am walking in 110 degree heat for votes and it is just going to get

hotter so I have lost patience with those who just bellyache.

[Bjorn Against]

8. I can campaign all I want...

I just wish it were as easy as you make it sound. The person with the most votes should win, but in our current system that is not the case. Campaigning is great but it is alot easier to win 50% of the vote than it is 60%. That is simple math, and the truth is there will be lots of competitive races no matter how hard I campaign. Either call for a real Democracy, or lose elections. It is as simple as that.

[dorktv]

41. okay, tell me that on a day when I have NOT been out in 110 degree

weather campaigning for myself, my family, my friends and my fellow Americans.

If *I*, a person who gets hives in heat and weighs over 200 lbs on a five six frame, can make the effort to beat the Republicans in Arizona, then *you* can work to get it to 60% in your state.

[rasputin1952]

22. I'm here in Nebraska, and I work my tail off getting our the message.

To date, I have 34 people who have changed to Independent from Republican, and 9 who have changed to Democrat once they know just what Democrats are trying to do. I have spent countless hours explaining the horrors of this administration, and while I certainly don't expect NE to go Blue, I am working to make sure that people know what the neo-cons really are.

I use info I get from DU to produce a darn good set of talking points, and I have to get away from DU from time to time to get some serious political work done...it all comes down to the local aspect, and I can tell you that people are pretty ticked off right now. We have never been in a better position to take back both Houses of Congress, and it will take WORK. I stick w/my Dem compatriots here, but I get out there with facts and figures that ensure that people know just what they are losing under the R/neo-con scheme.

If we all work together to get localities to vote, we will hand the bush administration a serious blow, and they will spend two years in the basement of the WH trying to figure out how they could possibly gain any momentum. The last thing we really need, are arguments over just what type of bagel we're supposed to bring to the meeting. Fight for the future, if this one goes down the tubes, the nation will not be able to recover in our lifetimes. Voter fraud is a valid issue, but not the only one, we need to ensure that people know their future depends on putting the brakes on this hell spawned administration. We can do it, but like I said, it takes WORK...:D

[brentspeak]

24. Kudos and thanks for your hard work

It frustrates me that red state Democrats have been left isolated with little national support. Howard Dean has been trying to change that, but there's gotta be ways that blue state Dems (like myself) can help out our red state counterparts.

[Lib Grrrrl]

25. Hell-Spawned Administration?

why give Hell such a bad rap? This Administration is so frickin' LOW they gotta look UP to see Hell!

[rasputin1952]

32. LOL...

:rofl:

Satans's little finger puppets...:evilgrin:

[GOTV]

31. Talking points....

"I use info I get from DU to produce a darn good set of talking points"

Could you share them?

[rasputin1952]

34. Far too numerous to list...but all you have to do is read posts,

follow links, and do some research to make sure whatever is thrown out there is not bogus, (yes, there are some who are a little too zealous in their approach and will post a few things that are really not well researched...:) ). Some of our people, in fact many of them are quite eloquent in their talking points. The key is to ensure that one does no not exasperate our fellow citizens with arguments. It is far better to steer people to the truth, (and sometimes, truth does not follow Dem guidelines...:( ), and allow them to decide for themselves where they should be in the political spectrum.

I ask R's why they are R's...almost invariably, it is because that is what they were brought up as, nothing more than that. These people came from the Eisenhower Republicans, (which were not bad btw), and they think that ALL R's are supposed to be like Lincoln, (also not bad)...but they do not look at the R history that well...Calvin Coolidge, and Warren G Harding set up Herbert Hoover to take the hit of the Great Depression....(Hoover was a pretty poor president, but he did wonders under FDR and Truman to help in areas of the world that needed aid).

The whole point is to remind people that the current administration has nothing to do w/anything conservative as most people would consider conservatism to be, (a balanced budget, smaller gov't, etc...rather, these people have driven us to bankruptcy, started a war w/o end, and have ballooned the Federal Gov't into a behemoth; while trampling the Constitution, the BoR's and parlaying fear into a wholesale destruction of the very "Liberties" they speak of so endearingly. They are a sham, completely lost while looting the Treasury, and setting up a system of a powerful wealthy ruling class, ensuring the rest of the citizenry will be working as serfs unto the Lords of the Manors.

Just a brief journey throught these threads will give you points to ponder and discuss; it is up to you to choose what will work best in your locale, you know the people you have to talk to, and each region is a little different...:)

[BeFree]

57. You are dead on

The republiCONs are destroying this country.

How did they get power, one must wonder. How did they fool a majority of the people into electing them?

They didn't fool everyone. In fact, if you look at the last elections, you can't help but come to the conclusion that the majority of voters did NOT vote for the cons.

So how did they get power? They stole it. They used e-voting machines financed by Delay's federal HAVA law, a law that ended up spending nearly $4 billion to buy the machines that counted 80% of the votes.

Do you think Delay was honest? Do you think he knew the votes could then be counted in favor of the cons, and then didn't pursue that option? Of course not. You know he got the law passed just so that the cons could steal the election.

They will do it again... what makes you think they won't?

[rasputin1952]

59. I agree that they will try anything to stay in power, and I have been

fighting for accountability of those damnable machines since their inception. It is Congress itself that must pass the law for accountability nationwide...but state and local entities have the responsibility of demanding a paper trail. USSC has, a few times in the past, made it clear that elections are essentially the responsibility of state and local officials. Every member of this site should be hounding their election boards as well as the Feds to ensure there is a paper trail for recounts!

There is NO excuse not for one to be in place...in fact w/o a paper trail, it is obvious that fraud is built into the system, and those that oppose a paper trail, are part of the fraudulent environment that has been created. The remedy is both cheap and easy, why would ANYONE be against a paper trail unless they intended to use fraud to further their aims?????

[OneBlueSky]

26. this really is a question that deserves serious consideration . . .

because the Democratic reaction to the tons and tons of evidence of election fraud has been mostly silence -- particularly from those affiliated with the DLC . . .

which leads one to ask "why?" . . . why? why? why? why? why? . . .

[applegrove]

27. Most of the evidence points to all kinds of ways of suppressing the

vote. Not much at all that supports vote switching by machine.

We have to fight the suppression in all ways. Including not creating apathy.

65% voting is pathetic for a Western nation in a time of crisis. If the Dems do not get more than that out to vote...they will loose again. Remember if Bush is at 30% in the polls - with only 65% of people voting.. then it makes for another possibility of an election being stolen in a variety of ways (too few machines, intimidation,law technicalities as interpreted by Repukes to help them suppress, caging, fees for signing up people, vetting of lists, etc.). Many many many ways the GOP has suppressed the vote.

[Stevepol]

28. There's quite a lot of evidence that indicates machine malfeasance.

The thing that got me first aware of the problem was the 02 elections. In GA, IN THE FIRST YEAR THEY SWITCHED TO ALL DIEBOLD ALL THE TIME, in an off-year election that all the pundits were declaring would go to the Dems as in every previous case, here's what happened:

--Roy Barnes, extremely popular governor, after leading in every poll before the election, in one by 11% points, that's the figure quoted most often by people, loses the election by 5%. You might qualify those figures a little, but you'd have to fudge a heckuva lot to change the fact that this is pretty clearly not right. A 16 point turnaround.
--Max Cleland loses by 8% after leading by 5% in the polls or something close to that, a 13 point turnaround
--Then, I read the fx about the touchscreens, that there was no way to even audit or recount this election. I had to think, Are people crazy? The media will be all over this like white on rice. And then SILENCE.
--I won't go into Mondale in MN who lost after leading comfortably in the polls (where the optiscans were probably the modus operandi and it could have been recounted but wasn't).
--or CO where Strickland lost to Allard after leading comfortably in the polls.

It's true that you can't have evidence when there's no evidence to have, i.e., when you don't have paper to check, but to say there's no evidence is to miss the statistical evidence (the only evidence that's possible at the moment along with anecdotal evidence, which was also rife in GA at least). It's also true there were many many other methods of suppresion of the vote.

[applegrove]

37. The election day exit polls being off is what is used as statistical

proof for the most part. Overestimating Kerry's win.. could just as easily inspire repukes to vote and keep those apathetic Dems home. When you are talking about 35% of the population (voting population) who does not vote.. any excuse to avoid going to the polls will do.

I don't know why the exit polls were off. Neither do you. An early estimate of a Kerry win could have affected and suppressed the vote.. just as much as the diebold vote switch you claim.

We know something is wrong with the polls. But we do not yet have the exacting proof of what.

If even the turnout went form 70% back to what actually happened (65%) because of overhappy dems and quiet little repukes - that is the difference of 5% right there. They got home from work and Kerry had won. Or line-ups were very long and Kerry had won. Except he hadn't.

We know there is all manner of vote suppression. We don't yet know exactly what all the steps were. We have to just learn to live with that and come up with the best voting solution for each district..

Otherwise another 5% will be taught that if they face a diebold machine.. their vote will likely not count. And there is that 5% gone. Repukes will win while they are at 30% of the vote.

There are many ways to suppress a vote. Don't fall for any of them. Or get tunnel vision.

[Awsi Dooger]

46. Georgia state polls overstate the Democrat

That's always conveniently ignored when assessing 2002. If there's any state you throw out pre-election polls, it's Georgia.

Cleland was supposed to cruise in '96 against Guy Millner, but Cleland barely squeaked out a win, something like 1%. Two years earlier our hero Zell Miller was expected to take the gov race handily against Millner, but Zell needed a furious post midnight rally in Atlanta to win.

I was very surprised Barnes lost, especially by that margin, but Cleland was even in the final polls and all the momentum with Chambliss.

The presidential polls always make the Georgia race closer than it turns out to be. That was true before Diebold, including 2000.

Plus in 2002 you had the Ralph Reed troops on the ground in Georgia, a test case of the strategy the GOP used in 2004, bombarding strategic areas with flyers and working non-stop until election day.

The Mondale situation was extremely rare and last minute, so the polls there were unreliable . One poll had Coleman well ahead. Is Minnesota even a machine state?

Strickland did lead many of the late polls. That was against an incumbent in a red state.

I'm not dismissing all the worries about Diebold, but 2002 is not a good place for conclusions, IMO. There was an apparent GOP wave over the final weekend due to national security concerns. That was reported in a blaring headline on the front page of the USA Today on Monday, the day before the election. I heard many Democratic strategists and campaign directors say their pollling turned sour on the final weekend.

[applegrove]

54. We are talking about exit polls. Not polls the weekend before or

the days before. The polls reported on that voting day.. and published by 2PM were flawed, flawed, flawed... and we don't have exacting proof of why.

[opihimoimoi]

33. I happen to think the Dem Party is doing OK under the circumstances

The Polls show The Pub Party is flummoxed and desperate. They are reduced to conniving and drastic measures including lie cheat stealing...

The Pubs have imploded and they are forced to spin their ways to credibility but it ain't happening...

The Polls show we got a damn good op to resecure the House this year and perhaps the Senate in 08. This is driving the Pub Masters nutz

Thus they attempt to dilute the Dem Party with covert ops posing as DEMs from top to bottom.

Come, we look at things optimistically and in a realistic way..the Future of America depends on informed voters like never before..

[closeupready]

35. You are so right. I pointed this out last year, how "Diebold" was a curse

or something, and yet, when I asked whether dems were investigating, the silence was almost literally DEAFENING. It doesn't seem like anyone cares about no paper trails/no verifiability of vote.

[closeupready]

36. Oh, and stop calling the threadstarter "negative". Some are nuts/bolts

kinds of people, not people-people. So don't go telling people to "shut up and get out and do something." How the heck do you know anyone isn't doing things IN THEIR OWN WAY?

[LaPera]

39. Incumbent Dem's ONLY care about themselves...Why rock the boat!

If they bring up the real and valid electronic voting machine stealing by Diebold & ES&S etc., issue, they might get attacked by the republicans and lose their seat...So they just keep quiet, keep their heads in the sand and hope they make it through another election...Fuck all the other Dem's & everyone else...As long as their Dem family is taken care of.

Because the republicans have to have a certain amount of Dem's in office or it would be too obvious and it would look like a one party (republican) system...So the frightened Dem's say nothing in hopes they will be left alone...just as long as the Republicans keep & steal the majority via their electronic voting machines.

[Lib Grrrrl]

44. Exactly Why they Need To Go Bye-Bye

We need Democrats who will ACTUALLY ACT LIKE A REAL FUCKING OPPOSITION PARTY...not a bunch they will be all scared and roll over and play dead for the Repukes! If they roll over and play dead for these fascist assholes, then they are enablers, and I don't give a shit WHAT party they are, they need to be GONE!!

They need to get primary challengers...challengers who will STAND UP AND ACT LIKE FUCKING DEMOCRATS!!

I will gladly, wholeheartedly support any Democrat who ACTS LIKE ONE!!

For those who don't or won't or can't...I recommend a Primary challenger. fuck 'em. They need to remember who they answer to!

[Stevepol]

48. By the way MN, the touchscreens steal, but so do the optiscans.

Mondale in MN in all likelihood won his election in 02, but I think MN at the time had and maybe still has mostly optiscans, which are just as easily programmed to flip or steal elections. There's always the possibility of an audit since there is paper, but since audits are almost never done, the machine can continue to do their dirty deeds.

[opihimoimoi]

49. I see a trend to sully our Dems, and some of the crits are justified,

but overall, if our Dem Leaders get replaced by new DEMs....who is to say they will do the job we send them to do?

I see a plot by the sneaky ass Pubs to infiltrate our Party with closet Pubs posing as DEMs....I see efforts almost everywhere.

The sneaky bastards are like termites coming to eat our House at night....

[Lib Grrrrl]

52. Well, Then, The Answer Is Obvious, Isn't It?

WE need to infiltrate THEIR ranks. WE need to run some stealth candidates in Republican primaries, and get some of OUR PEOPLE elected as Republicans, and then have them party-jump.
Two can play dirty tricks, you know!!

Incidentally, GOP stands for GO PEE...as in...GO PEE on the little people!

[opihimoimoi]

53. LOL...thats one approach.....I suppose

But I happen to think Dems need a filter and a school on how to lead....

[Blackthorn]

61. You're one step away from working it out...

Ask yourself WHY they aren't doing anything about it, particulary considering that they are aware, perhaps to a greater degree, than we all are.