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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-09-06 03:37 PM
Original message
A thought about why so many men vote Republican
Yesterday our local newspaper carried an article about churches attempting to get more men to attend. (I've certainly noticed that straight, single men tend not to go to church. The men attending the typical church are even more likely than the general population to be married or gay. But I digress...) Here's the passage in the article that caught my eye:
******************************
Pastors are taught in seminaries not to be leaders but "facilitators," Murrow contends. Instead of taking a stand on an issue, ministers strive for consensus, a strategy that puts men off, he argues.

"Men would rather you take a hard stand and die on that hill, even if they disagree with you, than have the sense that you are just here to placate and make everyone play nice," he said.

Men need to be challenged by male leaders, he said. "Men don't follow religion, philosophy or ideas," he said. "Men follow men." He cites Jesus Christ as the kind of leader who attracted other men.

http://www.startribune.com/614/story/538699.html
*********************************

Okay, now what does this have to do with politics?

Simple. I've noticed over the years that men admire people who "don't take any shit from anyone." Riding the buses in Portland and Minneapolis, I heard support for Bush and Cheney from the type of men who were being hurt by their policies, all because they projected a "tough" image of standing up for what they believed in. Kerry clearly hurt himself by not fighting back against the swiftboaters and by not taking control of the argument.

It's not only right-wingers who benefit from this tendency. The late Paul Wellstone was admired by VFW types and farmers, among others, and the very left-leaning Peter DeFazio easily keeps his Congressional seat in an Oregon district that has far more lumberjacks, ranchers, and fishermen than it does countercultural types, even though he looks like Mr. Peepers. Working on the edges of the Kucinich campaign, I saw kitchen workers flock around DK after he spoke at a dinner, begging to have their pictures taken with him.

It's not a matter of left versus right. It's a matter of "will this candidate stand up for what he believes in?" Does this candidate have a core of values that s/he will never violate? (Bush does: 1) Taxes should be low, 2) Other countries should obey the will of the U.S. These are pernicious views, but he really believes them, and it shows.)

That's why I have a strong antipathy towards the candidates that certain groups on DU (paid by the exploratory committees of some of these figures?) simply because they seem inoffensive and competent and look like TV anchormen.

Inoffensive won't do it. Even competent won't do it. Looking like a TV anchorman won't do it.

Having a simple but specific platform that voters can see as benefiting them in concrete ways and then fighting for it, refusing to be sidetracked by swiftboaters or attempts to throw up wedge issues or any of the other Republicanite tricks that we should all be wise to now, refusing to blunt one's words just because it might offend the Republicans--that's the way to go.
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ulysses Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-09-06 03:46 PM
Response to Original message
1. or maybe "men who follow, follow men" :)
Isn't it a fine irony, though, that we've wandered about in this wilderness for 20 years, desperately trying to tease back the Reagan Dems by not doing the one thing that might have brought them back?
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #1
72. No.
Good riddance!






"THE VOICE OF THE TURTLE?" :rofl:
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spooky3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-09-06 03:56 PM
Response to Original message
2. Murrow's false dichotomy
Edited on Sun Jul-09-06 03:59 PM by spooky3
Aside from making a statement reflecting gross stereotyping, Murrow is setting up a false dichotomy when he says,

"'Men would rather you take a hard stand and die on that hill, even if they disagree with you, than have the sense that you are just here to placate and make everyone play nice,' he said."

A good leader does neither of these things, but insteads takes a stand that is most appropriate for the situation, adjusts to new info, builds consensus where appropriate, etc.
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AirAmFan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-09-06 03:58 PM
Response to Original message
3. I think you've got something there. Republicans have twisted what
Dems say to make them appear vacillating milquetoasts. Remember the devastating Republican clip of Kerry stating, "I voted for it--before I voted against it"? No matter the context of voting for the version that taxed the rich to pay for Iraq and then voting against the version that stripped out how the tab was to be paid, Republicans had just the right frame for Kerry, and they repeated it ad nauseam.

Also, Republican stands against "gun control" draw the infantile macho-men who stamp their feet and cry, "I want my gun (penis substitute)!" And who's more likely to be homophobic enough to rally to Republican scapegoating of gays?
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wisteria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #3
28. I think this is a bad example. Most reasonable people understand
that votes change in the Senate. It is difficult to "frame" a vote that changed do to money issues and other amendments attached.
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benEzra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-11-06 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #3
115. Now there's a rather bigoted statement...
Also, Republican stands against "gun control" draw the infantile macho-men who stamp their feet and cry, "I want my gun (penis substitute)!" And who's more likely to be homophobic enough to rally to Republican scapegoating of gays?

Considering that half of men, a third of women, and between a quarter and a third of registered Dems and indies are gun owners, I'd say your statement is a perfect illustration of how to alienate a substantial number of highly motivated voters.

I personally don't want a politician mucking around in our family's gun safe any more than I want them mucking around in our bedroom, or tapping our phone, or telling us what books we are allowed to read. You disagree with that stance; fine, let's agree to disagree. But pretending that those who disagree with you on the gun issue cannot possibly be doing so on a rational basis is precisely why urban gun-owner-haters are the bane of the party in pro-gun states.

The end result of your approach, from DU's own virginiamountainman:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=118x95394#95510



Why a lot of non-gun-owners misunderstand the issue:

www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=118&topic_id=97165
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-09-06 03:59 PM
Response to Original message
4. So men are false bravado lemmings?
Edited on Sun Jul-09-06 04:00 PM by sandnsea
There's some truth to what you say but it has more to do with them rejecting the label of the Democratic Party than actually following anybody anywhere.

DeFazio is no Mr. Peepers and has such a command of the issues that he always impresses. He also provides the best constituent services I've ever seen, and pays particular attention to vets which helps with the Roseburg VA hospital and retirees on the coast. However, he avoids guns and logging issues like the plague and even voted for healthy forests. He also voted for the Sensenbrenner immigration bill. I like him very much, but he isn't above throwing a vote or two to the hicks in our area either. He knows his supporters understand and will back him because he is so good 95% of the time. They don't try smearing DeFazio because WE wouldn't let them, he doesn't need to do a thing.

We don't have that kind of loyalty to our Democratic national candidate and platform, and until we get it through our heads that we have to, we'll have a helluva time winning.


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DrRang Donating Member (415 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-09-06 04:09 PM
Response to Original message
5. Christianity puts its worshippers in an essentially feminine position,
it has often seemed. Nuns are the "brides of Christ." Many Biblical passages say that Christ is the head of the church, just like the father is the head of the family. Christ loves the church like a husband loves his wife, on and on. It seems pretty obvious that men who need to be reassured about their dominance only go for a brand of Christianity that encourages a rabid patriarchalism, that makes it an actual sin not to be submissive to the male head. The last thing these guys want to hear about is Jesus's commands to be meek, turn the other cheek, wash people's feet, etc.
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bobbieinok Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-09-06 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Eugene Rivers, a pentecostal xtian minister working hard in the inner city
said at a workshop that xtians are losing the young blacks in the inner cities. He said that the church is filled with women (and men who talk and act 'like women') so the boys look to the gangs for male role models.

He also said that young black women in the inner cities go to church for religion and to the Nation of Islam for 'real' men. He spoke very bluntly to a group of mostly African-Americans at a conservative xtian college; when he said that young black women go to the Nation of Islam for 'real' men, there were many loud voices saying 'amen, brother.'

As an older white woman, I found his comments--and especially this reaction--very interesting.
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BillZBubb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-09-06 04:22 PM
Response to Original message
6. There is a lot to that.
It is why the Repugs always paint their guy as a "strong leader" not influenced by polls. They paint any Democrat as being a "flip-flopper" moved only by polls. Until Democrats learn to fight back, they'll keep doing it.

The Repugs pound that message home. It works on a lot of men.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-09-06 04:43 PM
Response to Original message
7. Kerry counterattacked forcefully - corpmedia complicitly ignored his
Edited on Sun Jul-09-06 04:43 PM by blm
efforts and those of his campaign.

COMPLICIT being the key word.

Research forum has the complete data on the response:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_oet&address=358x2555
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BlueIris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-09-06 11:43 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. blm beats me to it, by...many hours.
Why, WHY DO PEOPLE REFUSE TO SEE THE TRUTH ABOUT KERRY???
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Clark2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #13
61. Because it's like the proverbial tree falling in the forest.
Kerry didn't "attack" the Swiftboaters because no one heard it.
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grilled onions Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-09-06 08:00 PM
Response to Original message
9. Males Pay More Attention To Business Issues
Females deal with issues of the heart. WHile the men pay more attention to tax cuts,tax rates, and talk about Wall Street issues women listen more to issues they often have to deal with(especially if they are single or single moms) like health care,minimum wage,help for seniors(for many find they often become the health care givers for aging parents). We need to get those attracted to business issues to understand that discussing healthcare,minimum wage etc are also business issues--issues they involve everyone whether or not they are financially solvent,whether or not they have ample healthcare, whether or not they have plenty of green socked away.
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mrreowwr_kittty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-09-06 11:02 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. What?
I'd say that concern over wages, health care, and senior issues is every bit as pragmatic as concern over tax rates and Wall Street. Why are you suggesting that this is borne of women's hearts and not thier minds? Men are led by their emotions as much, if not more in some cases than women. The average man doesn't own considerable stock and won't benefit from Bush tax cuts! So who's being irrational?
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #9
90. Kerry was very adept on business issues in the 3rd debate
He is one of the sharper Senators on the Fianance committee and the commerce committee. He has also been on the Samll Business committee since he came to the Senate - he's the top Democrat.
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doc03 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-09-06 08:37 PM
Response to Original message
10. I would say he makes a good point
Men that voted for Ronald Reagan including myself were impressed by his strong resolve right or wrong he stuck to his principles. I disagreed with him for firing the air traffic controllers but he said if they went on strike he would fire them and he did. Even though he nearly bankrupted the country with his military build up I think it did lead to the fall of the USSR. Things I didn't know was he was out to destroy all Unions in the US, he used the old line that he was a President of a Union I must admit he had me fooled. I have regretted my vote for him ever since but a lot of other Union members I know still fall for the "he tells it like it is" mindset. To me Kerry was about the worst candidate we could have picked (I think the media picked him for us just like they are trying to make Hillary our candidate for 2008). Kerry seemed to me to be on either side of an issue depending on the polls.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 08:42 AM
Response to Reply #10
16. And I had my doubts about Kerry's effectiveness as a candidate
early on when I saw him on CSPAN with a group of veterans in Iowa before the primaries.

Unlike Lindsey Graham, whom I had seen earlier with a similar group, he seemed ill at ease with the veterans, and if he had ever had that "one of the guys" manner (which he must have had to survive in Vietnam), he had since lost it.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #16
19. Hogwash - even the hateful press has been unable to attack Kerry's natural
Edited on Mon Jul-10-06 09:45 AM by blm
connectivity with veterans he speaks with. And it's not like they haven't TRIED. Most give up and give in to the fact that he does have a genuine ease with veterans.

In fact, it was veterans and firefighters who drove the vote FOR Kerry in Iowa.

So, why are you trying to revise history on that?

Is this another effort to discredit the election reformers concerned about machine fraud? By pretending that the only problem was that Kerry only got 59 million votes because he was a bad candidate seems to be the distraction of choice for those who don't believe in machine fraud.

The heavy veteran vote FOR Kerry and away from Bush is further proof that BushInc HAD to rig machines. Instead you want to help BushInc promote the LIE that vets didn't like Kerry. And it IS a lie, whether you repeat it because media perception guides you to it or not.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/02/03/politics/campaign/03VETS.html?ex=1391230800&en=4a872b029023719f&ei=5007&partner=USERLAND
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Iowa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #19
69. Yep, Kerry was very impressive in Iowa...
Edited on Mon Jul-10-06 02:39 PM by Iowa
I met him. He personified the type of solid candidate described in the OP; resolute, determined, strong character, ethical...

Bush, on the other hand, has always come across as a fumbler whose sole purpose in life is to serve as a figurehead for the plutocracy; fumbling, bumbling, weak, unethical, servile...

Anyone who was paying attention wouldn't assign the strong attributes described in the OP to Bush.

The entire premise of the OP is false.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 02:50 PM
Response to Reply #69
75. And it's exactly why corpmedia had to work overtime to protect Bush
and lie about Kerry.

Most people have no idea that Kerry really motorcycled for over 40 years, hunted for over 50 years, flew planes for over 40 years, played hockey his entire life, and doesn't just windsurf, but windsurfs MARATHON distances.

Alll the reports in his Naval records talk about his natural abilities and intellect that make him a strong leader and THAT is what the media needed to cover up for BushInc. And they did.
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doc03 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #19
101. I don't know what Kerry's poll numbers were
among veterans, but the overwhelming majority of the ones I know especially Vietnam veterans were dead set against him for his opposition to the Vietnam War. Don't get me wrong I think he was right for opposing the war, I think him and others like Jane Fonda saved thousands of lives. But like I said most veterans I know felt betrayed by him when he opposed the war and blame him and others for our loss there.
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fedupinBushcountry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #16
25. Ill at ease ?
what the hell are you talking about ? Kerry met with veterans all across the country. I happened to be right next to this officer dressed in his whites talking with Kerry, not one bit of ill at ease came over Kerry.

To compare Lindsey Graham ( who never served in combat) to Kerry is despicable, and beyond lame.
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wisteria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #16
32. What? You can't be serious. Senator Kerry sought out and reached
out to veterans during the campaign. He still does. Why would a veteran not feel comfortable around fellow veterans? And, your example- Lindsey Graham? Oh, yeah he emotes toughness and a one of the guys persona.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #32
45. Well, Graham is more comfortable around men in general than with women.
Edited on Mon Jul-10-06 01:39 PM by blm
They don't call him Miss Lindsey down in SC for nothing.
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #16
39. LOL - Kerry ill at ease with the vets? What are you smoking?
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #39
47. Well, I guess I've learned my lesson!
Don't speak ill of the Great God Kerry, not even to report my genuine impressions. And it was my genuine impression.

Okay, I found Kerry underwhelming as a candidate, and got a definite sense (in attending two different rallies that he spoke at) that the crowd was more unanimously anti-Bush than pro-Kerry.

Yeah, yeah, I know all about his record, but he still didn't connect with the crowd (as himself, not as the unBush) in the way that Dennis Kucinich or Jesse Jackson or even Max Cleland did.

That's my true opinion. Unlike some people on this board, I don't work for anyone's exploratory committee. I really never warmed to Kerry, and neither did a lot of the people I know. I went door-to-door for him as a DFL volunteer, but it was only because I was ABB that year.

If you like Kerry, fine. Just don't demand that I get all misty-eyed and reverent about someone who promised to fight and then conceded before the votes were counted, who voted for the IWR and then claimed that it was fine but just fought wrong, who spoke in platitudes at his public appearances and maintained a wonkish website, and who let the Republicans set the agenda.

Thank you. Now if the dogpile will just remove itself from my back I'll get up and move on to another forum.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #47
51. No one wants adoration - we just don't expect claims against him based
in something so demonstrably false.

If it was only your impression, it's OK to say that you felt it even THOUGH there many reports of Kerry's close connections with the vets. You couldn't possibly have missed all of those. But to say you knew there was trouble when you saw his unease with the vets in Iowa as if it were a fact, well that's just a little much.

And I do feel that it's a shame you couldn't respect Kerry as the nominee for his actual record. 35 years of his work has made a huge difference in this country and its actual historic record, and I am sorry you choose to dismiss it.
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #47
55. I am asking nothing of that. I am contesting your opinion concerning
Edited on Mon Jul-10-06 01:52 PM by Mass
Kerry and the vets as not based on facts.

I cant say anything about the experiences you had. I was not there. However, I have been in other rallies during the campaign where the crowd was PRO-KERRY and where he connected perfectly with the crowd. May be it did not occur where you were. May be you did not want to see it. Who knows?

Now, may be you can accept that somebody disagrees with you?
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #55
57. Sure.
Can you?
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Mass Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #57
60. No problem for me.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #47
93. I resent the comment about people working for someone's
exploratory committee - I have met people from the Kerry group - because we went to Kerry events. We are not on Kerry's exploratory team. I will have to disagree that Kuchinich connects better - but if you want to believe it be my guest. As to the war "being fine", what part of "wrong war" didn't you get. The issue was never that he was for the war - he spoke out against going to war before it started - it was that his vote to give Bush leverage was hard to explain - he has repeatedly said he was wrong to trust Bush to keep his word.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #93
94. Didn't make myself plain
There are certain people on this board who just have to be on someone's exploratory committee (I wasn't referring to ordinary supporters, actually, and I was referring to the fanatical supporters of a number of candidates), because they seem to do nothing but push a particular person for president and go through rhetorical gymnastics to meet valid objections.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 05:11 PM
Response to Reply #94
98. As I said, I know many of the strongest Kerry supporters
and we simply push him because we think he is the best qualified and because, hard as it is you you to see, his life, values, and integrity connected with us. You may not believe me, but out of all the candidates I voted for since 1972 (my first vote) - Kerry is the one I liked the best. (Gary Hart was the second - but there's a huge difference.)
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TayTay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #16
63. Yeah, I see what you mean.
There was a recent forum at Harvard's Kennedy School of Politics in March about PTSD. Kerry attended with Max Cleland and Del Sandusky who served with Kerry on his boat in Vietnam. You could tell Sandusky was uncomfortable with Kerry, especially when Sandusky mentioned that his PTSD had come back about 3 to 4 years ago and he called that stuffed-shirt Kerry up and Kerry had the nerve to put him in full rehab and get him on a PTSD program. What a stuck-up bastard!

How awful. You can see it for yourself at this video: http://ksgaccman.harvard.edu/iop/events_forum_video.asp?ID=2973 It's about 1:32 into the presentation, just advance it. It certainly shows what strangers veterans can be to each other and how hard it can be to have someone say nice things about you. Bastards.
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globalvillage Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 04:07 PM
Response to Reply #63
92. Apparently, this old vet
thinks he's full of shit, too.
:rofl:

Jersey Devil My 85 yr old uncle wants to kick the crap out of the Swiftboaters I have an 85 year old uncle (actually my Dad's first cousin) who called me today. He's a WWII vet and is going blind, has some kidney problems and just wanted to talk. He said he's had some problems with the VA and that they sent him a huge bill for medical treatment when he wasn't expecting any bill, so he called Sen. John Kerry's office and asked to speak to Sen. Kerry. He said the staff there was very nice but told him Sen. Kerry's schedule was very busy, that it was "impossible" for them to connect him directly to Sen. Kerry but that they would try to help him out. Well, he wouldn't have any of it and only wanted to speak to Kerry, so he told them, "Just make sure you give my message to Senator Kerry. I'm a WWII vet and I spend 4 years overseas. The VA is driving me crazy sending me bills. I need your help. There aren't many of us left."
A few days later his phone rang and the caller says, "Hello, John Kerry here." My uncle, ever the skeptic, says, "You're full of shit", thinking it was an imposter. Well, my uncle said he heard laughter on the phone and then the caller said, "Joe, I am really John Kerry. You called my office a few days ago looking for help with the VA. How can I help you?"
So my uncle told him his story and Kerry said he'd be glad to help. My uncle asked why he took the time to call some "oldtimer" from NJ and Kerry said, "You said it in your message. There aren't many of you left."
A few weeks later my uncle got a letter from the VA apologizing for their "clerical error" and cancelling the bill.
So my uncle says that he is going to call Kerry up again to make sure he runs for President "because he cares about us vets." He also said the "guys" at the VA, most of whom are up in their 80s like my uncle, have been openly talking about "marching" in Washington to protest the Bush cuts to veterans and are hopping mad about them.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=1335836


This kid seemed to like him well enough.


Private First Class Junior Andino is, by his own reckoning, the kind of kid nothing much ever happens to.
snip
A little more than a week ago, he found himself explaining all this to a former Navy officer, Senator John F. Kerry.
Andino and Kerry were seatmates on a flight from Washington to Boston, during which Kerry quickly struck up a conversation.
``We just talked about everything," Andino said yesterday. ``I showed him some pictures, and told him things are getting better ."
Not all of the conversation was so heavy, Andino said. ``I mentioned that I haven't been to a Red Sox game, ever. He called up somebody, and he asked me if I wanted to go to the Red Sox." Andino said he is a huge baseball fan who just never had the opportunity, or the money, to go to Fenway Park.
One week later -- senators have no trouble getting tickets, apparently -- Andino was joining Kerry on a trip to Fenway Park. They sat in the owners' box last Thursday and watched the Red Sox win a thriller over the New York Mets, highlighted by a great catch by Coco Crisp.
``It was really good," Andino said. ``It was a very fun time for my very first game. It really made my last two months."
snip
``I never thought I'd someone I see on TV and look up to," he said. ``I never thought I'd be that lucky.
``He was a very nice, down-to-earth person. He was really cool. He was just like an ordinary person, very easy to talk to."
snip
Fenway Park turned out to be a perfect place for two guys, separated by two generations, to set aside the war that links them, senator and foot soldier cheering on the Sox.
``I didn't think anything like that would ever happen to me," Andino said, still incredulous. ``It meant a lot to me."

http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2006/07/03/a_privates_moment?mode=PF


Geez. What a bastard.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #63
95. Even if you dislike Kerry, this program is worth watching
Kerry's part is short - it does show the problems that we will face in coming years.

As to Del S.'s story - you might be surprised that nearly 30 years after he reported to Kerry, when he was on the streets and suicidal and had burned bridges to his family, he called Senator Kerry. Clearly this was a call for help to a man he trusted. From Del's account, Kerry spent hours on the phone with him and got him help and stayed involved because he had no other support. Kind of destroys your image of Kerry - In fact, the Boston Globe covered Kerry on the day Bush was innaugerated - likely one of the hardest days of his life - one thing he did was to call Del S to wish him a happy birthday.

A BG article last week covered a story about an injured soldier home from Iraq who sat next to Kerry on a flight back to Boston. The 19 year old, who is not totally negative on the war, found Kerry very nice, down to earth and easy to talk to. When Kerry found that he was a Red Sox fan who had never attended a game - Kerry made a call and invited him to join him at the game in the manager's box, which he did. Too bad he can't connect like Dennis Kuchinich.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #16
89. Kerry did BETTER with male voters than any recent candidate
including Clinton and Gore. The "Security mom" phenenomena made him do less well with woman. I have seen many eventson CSPAN with Kerry and vets - usually involving a lot of hugs and hand shakes. Kerry carried the veterans in Iowa, so they likely thought he connected better than you did.
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wisteria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #10
30. It was easy for Regan to stick to his guns- he was a Governor and
had few nationally important issues to address. You are unfair to Kerry, in that you do not recognize there is a difference in being a former Movie star turned Governor, then no very little President compared to a Senator who is faced with changing legislation,laws and amendments. Kerry, IMO never was a poll watcher. He had defined opinions on issues from, education to security issues. it was all laid out in his "Plan for America". You, apparently listened to to much right wing talking points and didn't bother to check out their accuracy.
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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jul-09-06 09:59 PM
Response to Original message
11. Men will follow men over a cliff and take the rest of us with them
First let me say LL this is the best OP I have seen on DU maybe ever. Not based (entirely) on what your subject is, but the way you have constructed it, brought in a linked article, included personal views, opened it up for discussion, taken a gentle (non-specific) sideswipe about "certain groups on DU" -- you've touched a lot of bases and IMHO this represents DU's potential at its best. Thank you.

I'm reminded of the neighbor who was quite passionate about the war in Iraq being about a "noble cause" (that he never really specified) but the conversation led inevitably -- as does a policy of trying to outbully the bullies until eternity -- to "mutually assured destruction" WHICH HE ACKNOWLEDGED! (I knew enough to LISTEN and learn from his point of view rather than argue-- he's the sort that thinks he already knows what I (as a cookie cutter liberal) think anyway so........)

Someone here talks about how men care about financial issues and women care about health care, etc......... is it possible that this article/discussion hinges on whether we associate more with mighty hunters beating our chest over our kill -- or observant hunter/gatherers paying attention to the whole landscape and the needs of the community?

The Repugs appeal to those who are self-centered (that is not intended as a loaded term) and the Democrats (traditionally) appeal to those who understand that we ARE a community (like it or not, that's how it IS).

The other aspect we're dealing with now is that sloganizing and "dittoheading" and appealing to the most simplistic macho urges in people (of either gender) makes it really convenient to dominate people emotionally, prevent them from actually thinking about things and get them to bully OTHERS the way they are bullied by the Pack Leader.

The techniques may be effective, but the policies are leading toward that cliff named Mututally Assured Destruction.

"Having a simple but specific platform that voters can see as benefiting them in concrete ways and then fighting for it, refusing to be sidetracked by swiftboaters or attempts to throw up wedge issues or any of the other Republicanite tricks that we should all be wise to now, refusing to blunt one's words just because it might offend the Republicans--that's the way to go."

Russ Feingold on MTP last week was the prime example of what yer talkin about here.

:thumbsup: :hi: and for the hunter gatherers :grouphug: :evilgrin:
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baldguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 07:24 AM
Response to Original message
14. Because they're afraid that their penis is too small.
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leesa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 08:20 AM
Response to Original message
15. This is an excellent point. It is why the Dem tactic of 'keeping the
powder dry' has been so damaging. We need to be scrappers. When Kerry was confronted by the swiftboaters, his polite response was deadly. Republicans need to cheat and lie when they fight because thay are almost always in the wrong. We are almost always in the right and we have truth on our side, but we think truth alone should carry it. The boyz still want the fight.

Good post.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #15
20. Check the Research Forum - Kerry was hardly polite - but the media would
Edited on Mon Jul-10-06 10:18 AM by blm
prefer you believe that Kerry never counterattacked the swifts. That way you blame Kerry and not question the machine fraud.
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Toots Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 08:52 AM
Response to Original message
17. I agree with this
Edited on Mon Jul-10-06 08:58 AM by Toots
I like Kerry but because of his fear of taking a real stand and sticking to it I could never really support him again. If he were the Democratic candidate I would of course vote for him but it would not be with any real zeal. I want and admire a strong leader someone who will blister the right with their voice and their actions. I want an Avatar, a Knight in Shining Armor, not someone who voted against it before they voted for it then voted against it again. I don't want rude and crude like Rush Limbaugh but I want someone who won't take any guff and takes the battle to them. Waxman comes to mind. Democrat6s are so scared of how they will be portrayed by the Media that they very carefully measure their words. That just doesn't get it. One reason I really like Dean. He makes mistakes but we know exactly where he stands at all times. Democrats have a well deserved reputation for being "girly men" and it will be hard to shake that...Remember when Bentsen was debating Quale and he made the remark "I knew JFK and he was a friend of mine and you sir are no JFK" Well that was not rude or crude but it sure resonated. That is what I am talking about.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #17
33. Hate to burst your bubble but ALL lawmakers vote FOR a version of a bill
Edited on Mon Jul-10-06 12:28 PM by blm
and then against the version they disagree with.

The GOPs and the media treated it as if it were strange because they knew UNINFORMED PEOPLE who were unfamiliar with how congress votes would believe the spin they used.

I'm surprised that you would use that as a reason when it is so obviously based in spin.

Waxman, Kucinich, Feingold, Kerry, Kennedy, Boxer - ALL congressional votes , even every REPUBLICAN vote is FOR one version of a bill or AGAINST the other.

Even John Kennedy voted FOR one version of a bill before he voted AGAINST it. What Kennedy did NOT have was a media willing to ptomote the GOP storyline that was based on a complete lie.
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Bandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #33
41. That is right and they to a man voted against Clinton's version
In fact Al Gore had to cast the tie breaking vote so Clinton's version could be put into effect and the rest is history. Once the Republicans took full control they passed their version and that also is history. The Greatest Economic Turn around in History My bubble remains intact thank you very much..
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #41
43. Where did I reference your post?
Edited on Mon Jul-10-06 12:45 PM by blm
And what does your reply have to do with mine, other than further add to my point that ALL lawmakers vote for or against a version of every bill? LOL - did I miss something, Bandit?
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Bandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #43
46. Sorry
I thought I had written the post as I share the same sentiments. I feel sooo foolish. :dunce:
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wisteria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #17
34. Do you have any understanding of the Senate? I don't think you do,
because Kerry's opinions did not change, it was the nature of the bills and amendments he was voting on that changed. he had strong convictions and he had detailed plans for America. It was all in writing in 'Our Plan for America". I don't want to get into a dean/Kerry match here, but Dean came from another direction. He was a former governor and he never had to vote on legislation and amendments like senator do.
Frankly, I don't know where this misconception about Kerry positions got started. He was alway clear as a bell to me and I can not recall him changing his mind not even once.
I would gladly support him for another run for President-enthusiastically. Right now, I can think of no one other than Kerry whom I would trust with our foreign policy and domestic matters.
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alvarezadams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 09:13 AM
Response to Original message
18. Simple answer
Conservative "thinking" (almost oxymoron) has been dissected: www.wam.umd.edu/~hannahk/bulletin.pdf

The link shows what "turns cons on". This includes "closure", "resistence to ambiguity" and other guiding characteristics which fit cons like a glove.

Men are more prone to be cons? UNEDUCATED men are, or men without education in "the liberal arts".

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LynneSin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 10:13 AM
Response to Original message
21. Well, I know what White Men tend to vote republican
because even as much as 100 years ago, unless you were a White Male, you didn't even have the right to vote. Laws were created that pretty much allowed for white men to be the dominate human class in society that even a poor white male had more rights than a female born to wealth & social stature. In general, I think there are alot of white men out there that think that the republican party is the only party that'll bring back the status of White Man domination
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BigYawn Donating Member (877 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 10:15 AM
Response to Original message
22. Only ONE main reason why people vote repub : TAXCUTS
Edited on Mon Jul-10-06 10:19 AM by BigYawn
Let's face facts, most Americans love taxcuts. That is what
Reagan promised in 1980 and Mondale promised to raise taxes
and got kicked in the teeth. Even people who don't earn much love
taxcuts because every human being lives on hope and everyone dreams
of hitting it rich someday even though most have no real possibility
of getting there.

If democrats came out for taxcuts for EVERY ONE, not just the poor
and lower middle class, in their platform in 2008, Republicans
will be toast. Remember most think they will get rich someday.
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Bandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. I don't think so
Clinton is a very good example of how people can and will vote for well reasoned logic. He raised taxes on the very wealthy and lowered them on the middle and lower class and the USA went on to experience the greatest economic expansion in history. Every single Republican argued against Clinton's proposals and said they would devastate the American economy. They have yet to be held accountable for their incompetence and undeniable lack of true understanding of economics.
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BigYawn Donating Member (877 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #23
36. The first time Clinton ran in 1992, he NEVER said he would raise taxes,
Edited on Mon Jul-10-06 12:33 PM by BigYawn
not only that Bush I went back on his famous
"read my lips, no new taxes" and actually signed
a tax increase after he was elected. That is why
he lost his second run in 1992 because lot of people
did not trust him anymore as a tax cutter.

Any way what do you have against taxcuts? Just look
at the 2005 US Treasury numbers. They collected record
taxes in 2005 inspite of Bush II taxcuts.

If democrats get smart and campaign for taxcuts, it will
pull the rug from under the republicans. They will lose badly.
Republicans will again become the minority party as they deserve.
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Bandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. I have nothing against tax cuts what I have is a strong belief
In responsibility and competence.
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BigYawn Donating Member (877 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #37
71. You won't get responsibility and competence unless you offer taxcuts 1st
That is how Reagan got elected, that is how Bush I got elected
(read my lips no new taxes), that is how Bush I lost his 2nd term
(he reneged on no new taxes), that is how Newt beat the crap out of
us by promising taxcuts in Contract with America with the result that
we lost majority in congress for the first time in 40 years and continue
in minority status, that is how Bush II got elected by promising taxcuts
in 2000, that is how Bush II got re-elected by keeping his promise of
taxcuts.

The taxcuts is the only frickin issue the republicans have. We are
handing them the control of the government for 25 years by not coming
out for taxcuts. And then we end up with incompetent people in the
white house. And we lose control of important issues like environment
and abortion rights, and judges.
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ginnyinWI Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #22
27. the theme behind "maybe they will get rich someday"
Maybe they don't actually believe they will get rich, but people in this country have been brainwashed into believing that we must let business, commerce have a free hand. Letting the "free market" work its magic is a kind of Holy Grail. People believe in the trickle down theory, and they believe that if business is allowed to function, we'll all be richer and better for it.And they also believe that Democrats want to ruin this plan by having government regulate the free market.

To sum up:
Republicans believe business is good and are suspicious of government.

Democrats believe that government is good and are suspicious of business.
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BigYawn Donating Member (877 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #27
38. How do you explain the record earnings of Individuals & Corporations
in 2005 AFTER the Bush II taxcuts? Believe me, if democrats
ever came out for taxcuts for all, they will win in the biggest
landslide in history. But it has to be a ironclad and convincing
guarantee similar to the "Contract with America" of 1994 which is
what got us out of power after 40 years.
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wisteria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #22
35. Bingo!!!! Greed and money!!! n/t
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BigYawn Donating Member (877 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #35
40. Yes, greed and money will trump morals & high principles EVRYTIME !!
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 11:01 AM
Response to Original message
24. with all repug males in my life, the common denominators is.....
it is the manly mans party..... all about their maleness. takes a secure man to vote dem. i watched my hubby do the transition and asmired him so..... reinforcing how much more of a man he was, than all the repug males combined

i believe, that is the bottom line, with so many of the males vote.

and i wont be convinced otherwise.... wink
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BigYawn Donating Member (877 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #24
74. Then how do you explain tens of millions of women repub voters?
Are they macho too? No madam, they are voting pocketbook
which boils down to lower taxes.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #74
88. good christian..... n/t
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Armstead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 11:27 AM
Response to Original message
26. Kicked and Recommended -- You got it in a nutshell (no pun intended)
Despite all the strategizing and poll analyzing, it all boils down to a simple fact.

People will back someone (male or female) who is direct and clear in theirpositions and beliefs.

A progressive who does that has just as good a chance at winning as any conservative. Any time anywhere.

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welshTerrier2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 12:03 PM
Response to Original message
29. "the courage of your convictions"
Edited on Mon Jul-10-06 12:05 PM by welshTerrier2
when you start talking about "triangulating" and start thinking in terms of "political calculation", you are focused more on HOW to win than you are on WHAT you're fighting for ... i think this has been a problem with the Democratic Party's consultant-driven approach ...

i'm not sure valuing the courage of your convictions is more common to men than women ... so i'm not sure that you've identified reasons more men vote republican ...

but i think the essence of what matters to voters is indeed the visible depth of your commitment to your beliefs ... phrased a little differently, candidates who really seem to care are valued more highly than those who seem to be pompously pontificating ... perhaps this is not the best way to choose candidates but i think it is the way most voters do ...
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 12:04 PM
Response to Original message
31. Conviction politics works.
Wellstone wrote about that. Its not just a male thing though. Its one reason why people like Kerry and Hillary are unelectable.
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wisteria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #31
42. Kerry was clear on his positions, the media may have distorted the
message, but I always found him to be consistent in his opinions except when circumstances changed the perspective and those opinions needed to be changed to reflect new developments. I call that growth.
I think Senator kerry is electable and many think he did win in 2004. I will not hesitate to vote for him again if we are all lucky enough to have him run again. He is a real leader and we will need someone with his expertise to tackle the foreign policy issues facing our nation today.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. You can't blame the media for his wishy washy position on Iraq
"I voted for it before I voted against it" was a stupid line but its symbolic of his tightrope dance. More importantly, it was stupid to criticize the conduct of the war without explicitly saying the war was wrong. He couldn't be an effective war critic because of his vote for the war, which showed a lack of conviction and judgment. If Kerry had done in '04 what he is doing today in regard to Iraq then people may have taken him more seriously. Looking back, it was a big mistake to nominate anyone who voted for the war in Iraq. It made it impossible to criticize Bush without opening him up the "flip flop" perception.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #44
48. Nothing inconsistent about being for a resolution to get weapon inspectors
and renewed diplomatic efforts in Iraq going again. Kerry was for it in 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, and 2002. He was AGAINST Bush going to war while the inspections and diplomacy were proving military action was not necessary.

The statement you claim he made about the war is a false one promoted by the GOP and their media shills.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. If Kerry was against going to war
then he should not have given Bush the authority to do so. Its that kind of double-talk that turns people off, no matter how they feel about the war.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #49
54. It's not doubletalk - You are making war black and white just like Bush is
Decisions should be made AFTER weapons inspections and diplomacy and that is true for ALL resolutions.

Doubletalk is Bush telling the congress and journalists that war is not a done deal and that he will let weapon inspectors and diplomatic measures work to avoid war, and then be telling Blair and certain members of his cabinet that they are going to war no matter what and will be fixing the intel to make sure. Did you forget that they even found it necessary to lie to Powell?
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #54
56. Its fairly simple in this case.
You wrote: "Decisions should be made AFTER weapons inspections and diplomacy and that is true for ALL resolutions."

And yet, by voting for the IWR Kerry made the decision to give his support to war before inspections and diplomacy were done. Basically you're telling me I should forgive Kerry because he put complete trust in Bush to avoid war. That isn't helping. Kerry handed over the war making power to Bush. That was his only chance to vote for or against war against Iraq and we know which way he voted.

Wouldn't it have been easier to express a position against the Iraq war if the nominee weren't forced to go through such mental acrobatics to explain his vote in favor of it?
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #56
59. The war in Iraq WAS a black and white issue
and anyone who had studied the subject at all (as opposed to being intimidated by Beltway consultants) knew it.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #59
66. Those who studied it the MOST almost all voted for the RESOLUTION.
Edited on Mon Jul-10-06 02:18 PM by blm
Those who knew that there COULD be WMDs there because they remember the Iraqgate hearings and knew that Poppy Bush had supllied bio and chemical weapons to Saddam.

That's why they had worked to get inspectors back into Iraq since 1998 - and there were no consultants involved with THOSE lawmakers.

You seem to confuse those who have acted consistently and deliberately since 1998, with those who relied on consultants to make their decision because they hadn't studied it.

If you had studied the history of these lawmakers on Iraq and the history of the weapons covertly supplied to Saddam you would not be so careless in judging them. It was actually easier for the lawmakers who weren't as tuned into the dealings in Iraq to vote against the resolution and make a vote that appears sounder in retrospect than those who studied it more closely.

Google Iraqgate. Henry Gonzalez spent hours and days and months unraveling the deceit of Poppy Bush and his dealings with Saddam.



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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #56
62. No, I'm not - but Kerry was always saying that Bush rushed to war
without letting the other measures work, and was completely consistent with that, yet too many were willing to let Bush off the hook for violating those guidelines, and ignored how many times Kerry held a light to Bush's rush to war. You and others ignored him for black and white reasoning just as the corporate media knew you would,
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #62
65. If Kerry was concerned about Bush rushing to war
there was a very simple way to prevent that: voting against the IWR! Its pretty obvious. Rationalizations and excuses don't make it sound any better. In fact it just makes it worse. That's exactly what people are sick of hearing.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #65
67. That's not true. Those negotiating the resolution get no credit for what
Edited on Mon Jul-10-06 02:32 PM by blm
they did accomplish - they got weapon inspectors back in, they renewed diplomatic efforts, and they managed to get Iran and Syria off the table, as Bush had wanted them included as targets for military action.

Kerry was one of those lawmakers negotiating - they had different obligations than those who were not tasked with the job. And they also knew Bush HAD the votes for war his way, so their votes would cost him in some ways, not that the media would make note of it.

You would prefer Bush had a resolution with NO weapon inspections, NO renewed diplomatic efforts, and further expansion of the theter to Iran and Syria?

The DSM proves that Bush was going to war no matter what - he certainly had the votes for war his way with NO guidelines - your vitriol against those who at least gave him SOME guidelines that helped preserve a more honest record of the lead up is excessive.

Had there been NO inspections and NO diplomacy, we wouldn't even KNOW about the nonexistent WMDs, and it would have made it alot easier for them to be planted if they did become an issue. But, hey let's smear those Dems who made it happen.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #67
68. What a joke
If Kerry really didn't want an invasion all he had to do was vote no. He should have known, as many of us did, that anything Bush did before invading was a dog and pony show.

Maybe Bush would have not gotten the votes so easily if more people had made a clear, passionate stand against the war instead of trying to have it both ways.

Every post you make is excuses and equivocating. All you've managed to prove is that Kerry took a vote against the positions he articulated. People are more impressed by Kerry simply saying he was wrong to vote for it.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #68
70. He wanted military action IF IT WAS NECESSARY. Completely CONSISTENT
with everything he said about Iraq since 1998. I think YOU have little understanding about his actual position and its consistency.

YOU wanted Bush to have war HIS WAY - be honest. That's what YOU WANT and you condemn every Dem who worked to get guidelines in the IWR.

That's black and white for you - YOU wanted NO Democrat to negotiate for a better IWR because you wanted Bush to have war HIS way with no inspections, no diplomacy and extend military action to Syria and Iran.

Yep - that's what you wanted in black and white world.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 02:45 PM
Response to Reply #70
73. Then he took a vote against his own stated positions.
Edited on Mon Jul-10-06 02:46 PM by Radical Activist
Which is weak and spineless. Once Kerry voted for the IWR he gave up all power and ability to make Bush wait until all other options were exhausted. That's what makes that position such a weak cop-out.

In case you didn't notice, Bush did get war his way. Kerry's enabling actions in the Senate didn't stop that. Do you think the Iraq war we have now is "better" because Kerry inserted some kind language in the resolution? No freaking way.

Bush was never serious about doing anything but going to war. Its not a nuanced or complicated position you're taking. Its a naive one that places far too much faith in Bush. We know now that Bush only went through the motions with weapons inspections in order to get more support for the war, so I guess you could say Kerry helped Bush get more support for the war effort in that respect.

I'm not taking a black and white position. I'm taking one that is more in touch with reality than the idea that Bush was ever going to do anything but start that war.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #73
76. Well, the HISTORIC RECORD now says that weapon inspectors working for 2
Edited on Mon Jul-10-06 02:57 PM by blm
months found no WMDs, and because they were there, they could not easily be planted (as Bush would have done if no eyes were on the ground).

The record also states that diplomatic efforts were close to succeeding and Saddam was ready to leave peacefully to avoid military action. That wouldn't be part of the record and Bush's legacy if diplomacy hadn't been made part of the IWR.

And, of course, we didn't extend hostilities into Iran and Syria. And no doubt, we'd have attacked Iran within weeks of the fall of Baghdad while Bush was in his Mission Accomplished stage.

A fullscale regional war is the war YOU wanted because YOU didn't want any Democrat negotiating for an IWR.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #76
77. Oh please.
Edited on Mon Jul-10-06 03:04 PM by Radical Activist
You're grasping at straws. Attacking Iran? Planted weapons conspiracies? Supporting a war is OK because we get to take potshots in the historical record?

Just admit that Kerry's vote for the IWR was 1) misguided and 2) gave Bush authority to go to war BEFORE weapons inspections and negotiations were done, because we all knew that's what Bush was going to do. You're using circular reasoning and obviously the public didn't buy it in '04.

Frankly, it never mattered what Kerry said about the war in Iraq in '04 because the average person listening pointed to his vote for it and saw a man who was either hypocritical or two-faced or spineless. You can call it black and white all you want, but that was public perception.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #77
79. And who helped them with that media portrayal? Those who refused to
see that any military action deserves a nuanced approach that ACCEPTS weapon inspections and diplomacy as a matter of course, not a mere inconvenience.

Since it didn't matter to those on the left then of course it didn't matter to the media or the GOPs who used it to beat those who had alot more consistency and accomplishment in their negotiations than was recognized.

You can give in to public perception all you want. I choose not to.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #79
80. Kerry did.
If Kerry was looking for "a nuanced approach that ACCEPTS weapon inspections and diplomacy as a matter of course, not a mere inconvenience." Then the only logical way to achieve that was to vote against the IWR and force Bush to do it. You can't spin the IWR into a vote against the war. That's delusional.

I'm not giving into public perception. I'm accepting the fact that the public isn't fooled by putting lipstick on a pig.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #80
85. Then EVERY president can violate any resolution guidelines because
ALL votes for resolutions are votes for war according to you.

You still don't GET that weapon inspections, diplomacy and no Iran and Syria were exchanged for some of those Dem votes. Nice of you to appreciate those who stuck their necks out for that.

There was NO WAY to stop the war we know now because the DSM has proven it. Even Powell was being lied to and Kerry and other Dems who believed he had more influence over policy than he had were mistaken in THAT REGARD. They also believed that Poppy Bush, Brent Scowcroft and James Baker had more influence than they did.

But a vote for the resolution that would have prevented war with any other president in itself, was never a bad vote - and it did in fact help preserve a historic record that would have been lost without it.

Imagine what people would have believed with NO WEAPON INSPECTIONS. NO DIPLOMACY.

The public DID put lipstick on a pig when it supported Bush for going to war. Kerry did NOT. But who would listen with even people like you saying He supported war and refused to point to Bush's VIOLATION of the IWR like Kerry was trying to do.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 03:13 PM
Response to Reply #70
78. WHAAAAAT? We WANTED the war????
And here I thought the 30,000 people who marched in Portland wanted no war at all. Silly me.

No, I wanted the Democrats to come up with their own IWR that said "No attack on Iraq without a formal declaration of war and an actual aggressive action on the part of the Iraqi government."

The people who voted for the IWR were simply chicken. The White House pressured them HARD, saying that no one who voted against the IWR would ever get re-elected.

One of the MN DUers (dflprincess) spoke with Sheila Wellstone after the IWR vote, and Sheila told her that Paul had thought that voting against the IWR would make him lose the election, but that it was the right thing to do anyway. He was surprised and delighted when his poll numbers actually went up after his "no" vote.

Hell, even I saw the IWR as a trap.

If the war went badly (and I had no doubt that Bush would get his war through deception or just plain brazening it out), then the Republicanites would be able to say, "But you voted for it." Which is indeed what they did.

On the off chance that the war went "well" (the Iraqis met the U.S. troops with dancing in the streets and immediately turned their country into a paradise of peace and democracy), those who voted against it would have been taunted with "And you voted to keep Saddam Hussein in power."

But common sense indicated that the no good outcome was possible, that an invasion (and let's call it what it was, an unprovoked invasion) would only make a bad situation worse.

Common sense, not research. In every city where anti-war demonstrations were held, the protestors vastly outnumbered the counter-protestors by AT LEAST 10 to 1, sometimes 1,000 to 1.

And those of us who were against the war, without the benefit of staff researchers and positions papers, were RIGHT, dammit. We were RIGHT, and no defensive spinning on the part of the Kerry claque can change that fact.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #78
81. You missed the point. You didn't want any Dem to negotiate for a better
Edited on Mon Jul-10-06 03:27 PM by blm
resolution, you just wanted them to vote no.

But Bush already had the number of votes he needed for war HIS way.

Had no Dem stuck their necks out for negotiations for their vote, Bush would have HAD war his way, and that is the bottom line whether you like it or not.


So war the way YOU wanted Bush to have it would have seen NO weapon inspections, no diplomacy and entended military actions into Iran and Syria.

You may not like that bottom line, but it's the reality of what was being faced at the time of the vote and while Dems were working to get a better bill.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #81
83. You can't negotiate with evil
And this was an evil, cynical plan.

Nothing in the IWR would have prevented Bush from going to Syria and Iran if he really felt like it. He came mighty close to doing so anyway and probably would have if saner heads in his own party and in the Pentagon hadn't talked him out of it.

Sorry, Kerry fell into Bushboy's trap because he believed the White House propaganda.

Anyone who believes anything that Bush says without a lot of fact-checking is probably too gullible to be president.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #83
87.  google Iraqgate and you may have a better understanding
of why Bill Clinton and lawmakers like Kerry wanted weapons inspectors in Iraq since 1998.

You don't seem to understand the difference between an honest position of wanting inspectors and diplomacy to work in Iraq, a position held since 1998, and supporting war. Or you don't want to.
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #81
84. No, we didn't want a "better" war.
That was essentially Kerry's position in the '04 campaign. No, those who were against the war were never going to be satisfied with someone who argued for a better war rather than ending the war. It was a bad message.

Bush did exactly what he was going to do anyway. No, Kerry did not make this war better by supporting it. This is such a strange position you're taking and I don't think you would take it if you weren't bending over backwards to defend your candidate, Mrs. Heinz-Kerry.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #84
86. A better RESOLUTION, not a better war. YOU let Bush off the hook by
insisting that a resolution is to blame, and not Bush's VIOLATION of the resolutions guidelines.

I think you are not really reading what I have written, or are deliberately misconstruing it to stick to your argument.

And you should edit out the infantile personal attacks.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #86
91. No, I think you are misconstruing
I'm saying that even though the IWR limited what Bush could do, on paper, he tried to work up cases against Iran and Syria, his own party and the Pentagon, not the IWR, held him back.

What personal attacks?
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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #78
82. Good post.
The attempts at spin are amazing. Voting against the war in Iraq was an intelligent and principled vote to take. I don't hold it over the heads of those that voted for the war, but I'm not going to make excuses for them either. Nominating anyone who voted for the war was a mistake for just the reason you posted.
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mtnsnake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-11-06 07:25 AM
Response to Reply #78
113. I think you just hit another home run
Edited on Tue Jul-11-06 07:27 AM by mtnsnake
Well said!
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 04:36 PM
Response to Reply #65
96. You ignore the vote was in OCT, the war started in March
You also ignore the DSM that said they were going to war PERIOD.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 07:56 PM
Response to Reply #96
108. If they were going to war PERIOD
there was no reason not to recognize the IWR as a sham and vote against it.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 08:22 PM
Response to Reply #108
109. We know it was certain only because of the DSM
which came out in 2005. There was a lot of reason to think it was certain and I assume Kerry (and Harkin, who also voted for it and who like Kerry had been considered a dove) likely thought that avoiding it was a long shot. He was one of the loudest arguing that Bush shouldn't go to war in summer 2002 and arguing that he should go to the UN and Congress.

Maybe it was optimism that they had even a slight chance of stalling and diverting Bush or a faith in trying to negotiate a resolution with Bush - the provisions of which Bush completely ignored. (Note that Rice et al now say they went to depose Saddam and install a democracy - both of these reasons were specifically taken out of the IWR.)

What is clear is Kerry was never pro-war and that the vote was nor political. I say the latter because, if the vote was gambling that the war would be a success, he would not have spoken out against going to war before it started. He now has said the vote was wrong and he said he was wrong to have trusted that Bush would tell the truth on a matter of war - I think we all know that a President Kerry would not have gone to war and that he would tell the truth.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #44
50. Nor can you blame the media for his wishy-washy position on health care
Edited on Mon Jul-10-06 01:34 PM by Lydia Leftcoast
A major principle of negotiating is "always start by asking for more than what you'll really settle for."

By starting out with a position on health care that still involved the health insurance companies (which have become a bloodsucking curse on this land) and by adopting wimpy positions such as tax deductible health insurance premiums (which we self-employed people already get--and believe me, it doesn't help when those monthly premiums are due), his position was complicated and evoked memories of Clinton's equally complicated and insurance company appeasing plan.

Single payer. Never argue with an insurance company again. Never have your rates go up just when you need coverage the most. Never have to keep a shitty job just because it has insurance. Never have your rates go up even though you've never ever used up your deductible.
Never, as an employer, have to decide between hiring more employees or overworking the ones you have and maintaining their insurance.

Single payer.

Get the public's attention and be ready for a change to meet the Republicans' objections head-on.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #50
52. The healthcare experts gave Kerry's plan the highest rating of all plans
Edited on Mon Jul-10-06 01:42 PM by blm
submitted by the candidates, because Kerry's was the most doable that could be implemented the quickest. Because the media chose to ignore that importanat bit of news, doesn't mean that Dems should parrot their neglect or their false statements made against his plan.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #52
58. "The highest rating of all plans"
That's like saying "the best high-jump performance by a hippopotamus," considering the competition.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #58
64. I'd say Dean, Edwards and others would resent that remark. I'm sure they
worked hard on their plans to make them doable if they took office, and should not be dismissed as no competition. In fact, I think I recall Dean's plan getting the next highest rating.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #64
100. They all aimed too low
and put forth half-assed plans like "insuring all children" (in all but a few unfortunate cases, children need little more than routine care) or "making insurance premiums tax-deductible" (they already are for us self-employed people, and it doesn't help so much that you'd notice), or "helping low-income people buy insurance" (as the insurance companies rejoice at the infusion of government cash and continue raising their rates across the board every year to make sure that the CEO doesn't miss out on his bonus) or "putting all Americans in the federal insurance pool" (see previous).

Yawn.

Twelve years after Hillary's absurdly complicated and insurance-company-coddling plan was swiftboated by the Republicanites, single-payer sounds better and better and easier to sell.

The next Democratic presidential candidate should advocate single-payer health care and be ready to respond to every conceivable attack that the Republicanites and the bloodsucking insurance companies come up with.

"Never have to argue with an insurance company again" would appeal to both patients and doctors.

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Radical Activist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #50
53. Or trade
Having a clear stand against all the jobs we're losing to bad trade deals would have won some votes in Ohio, which has been hit hard. Instead he spoke in half-assed proposals and safe, measured statements.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #53
97. His view of a global economy and how to deal with it were
Edited on Mon Jul-10-06 05:03 PM by karynnj
better than anyone else running. A global economy is a reality and demogogueing that issue would be counter productive. Kerry' s comments on Oct 6, 1993 in the Senate are one of the most insightful on this issue. Echoes of these themes were in his alternative fuels/environment/jobs comments in 2004. From Thomas, here's an exerpt of the description of the problem and what has to be done:

In many ways, we are witnessing the most rapid change in the workplace in this country since the postwar era began. For a majority of working Americans, the changes are utterly at odds with the expectations they nurtured growing up.

Millions of Americans grew up feeling they had a kind of implied contract with their country, a contract for the American dream. If you applied yourself, got an education, went to work, and worked hard, then you had a reasonable shot at an income, a home, time for family, and a graceful retirement.

Today, those comfortable assumptions have been shattered by the realization that no job is safe, no future assured. And many Americans simply feel betrayed.


To this day I'm not sure that official Washington fully comprehends what has happened to working America in the last 20 years, a period when the incomes of the majority declined in real terms.

In the decade following 1953, the typical male worker, head of his household, aged 40 to 50, saw his real income grow 36 percent. The 40-something workers from 1963 to 1973 saw their incomes grow 25 percent. The 40-something workers from 1973 to 1983 saw their incomes decline, by 14 percent, and reliable estimates indicate that the period of 1983 to 1993 will show a similar decline.

From 1969 to 1989 average weekly earnings in this country declined from $387 to $335. No wonder then, that millions of women entered the work force, not simply because the opportunity opened for the first time. They had no choice. More and more families needed two incomes to support a family, where one had once been enough.

It began to be insufficient to have two incomes in the family. By 1989 the number of people working at more than one job hit a record high. And then even this was not enough to maintain living standards. Family income growth simply slowed down. Between 1979 and 1989 it grew more slowly than at any period since World War II. In 1989 the median family income was only $1,528 greater than it had been 10 years earlier. In prior decades real family income would increase by that same amount every 22 months. When the recession began in 1989, the average family's inflation-adjusted income fell 4.4 percent, a $1,640 drop, or more than the entire gain from the eighties.

Younger people now make less money at the beginning of their careers, and can expect their incomes to grow more slowly than their parents'. Families headed by persons aged 25 to 34 in 1989 had incomes $1,715 less than their counterparts did 10 years earlier, in 1979. Evidence continues to suggest that persons born after 1945 simply will not achieve the same incomes in middle-age that their parents achieved.

Thus, Mr. President, it is a treadmill world for millions of Americans. They work hard, they spend less time with their families, but their incomes don't go up. The more their incomes stagnate, the more they work. The more they work, the more they leave the kids alone, and the more they need child care. The more they need child care, the more they need to work.

Why are we surprised at the statistics on the hours children spend in front of the television; about illiteracy rates; about teenage crime and pregnancy? All the adults are working and too many kids are raising themselves.

Of course, there is another story to be found in the numbers. Not everyone is suffering from a declining income. Those at the top of the income scale are seeing their incomes increase, and as a result income inequality in this Nation is growing dramatically. Overall, the 30 percent of our people at the top of the income scale have secured more and more, while the bottom 70 percent have been losing. The richest 1 percent saw their incomes grow 62 percent during the 1980's, capturing a full 53 percent of the total income growth among all families in the entire economy. This represents a dramatic reversal of what had been a post-war trend toward equality in this country. It also means that the less well-off in our society--the same Americans who lost out in the Reagan tax revolution--are the ones being hurt by changes in the economy.

You might say that we long ago left the world of Ward and June Clever. We have entered the world of Roseanne and Dan, and the yuppies from `L.A. Law' working downtown.

Many, many commentators have explained how the assumptions from that long-ago world will cripple us if we do not have the courage to look at today's economy with a clear eye.

Back then, we were the only economic superpower. American companies had virtually no competition and, since they produced almost entirely in the United States, their workers felt no particular threat from workers abroad. This was the era when `Made in Japan' meant something was cheap--not good, just cheap.

Throughout the 1950's and 1960's productivity was rising rapidly throughout the American economy, so that people could expect over time to work less, but earn more.

Back then, free trade for America meant more markets for America, not competition. We maintained the Bretton Woods rules, the GATT, and other treaty obligations not only to buttress the free world against communism, and not only out of the goodness of our hearts; we enforced a basic level of stability in the world because a stable world meant open markets for us, and we made the products people most wanted to buy.

Back then, large corporations and large unions set the pace for middle-class prosperity. Remember it was Henry Ford, no fan of unions, who created the mass production line to turn out cars cheaply--cheaply enough so that his own workers could buy them. When he finally capitulated to the United Auto Workers, he gave his workers the largest settlement of the Big Three.

In those days, Fortune 500 companies controlled well over 50 percent of our total economy, and employed three-quarters of our manufacturing work force. If the New Deal built the floor for personal security in America, the corporate economy put up the middle-class safety net, with pension plans and health insurance.

In those days, American families lived on one man's paycheck, from one job that lasted with one company for an entire lifetime.

If you were laid off, you were laid off for the duration, and you were called back when business picked up.

No more.

And two key words summarize the difference: globalization and technology. Each one feeds the other. Each one confronts American employers with a choice: Can I beat the competition by making a stand in America with my own workers, or must I beat the competition by going abroad? Will my workers join the ranks of the 70 percent falling behind, or will they join the ranks of the 30 percent--or fewer--who will get ahead?

The dynamics of this are familiar to anybody who works. Technology, particularly computer technology, makes it possible to move production anywhere in the world. Technology makes it possible for formerly large corporations to make do with drastically fewer people at home. Remember those bar-code readers.

Increasingly freer trade amongst nations means that competition comes from low-wage workers in developing countries, or from high-skilled, highly productive workers in the industrialized countries. The choice is a stark one: either a nation must secure more technology and become more productive or it must underbid all others for labor and other costs. Most countries understand that this is a choice they have to make.

I submit to you, Mr. President, that this is a choice which we are not making, and the consequence is that the choice is being made for us--toward low costs, leading to the unprecedented wave of downsizing underway in our economy.

Two weeks ago an American Management Association survey reported that nearly half of the companies polled had reduced their work forces in the last year. A quarter reported that they will do so again in the coming year, some for the second or third time in 5 years, and experience shows that the number of companies that eventually downsize is twice the number that predict they will.

Workers who are downsized in today's environment are not out for the duration. They are out for good, and their ability to climb back into the economy is utterly dependent on the match between their skills and the needs of the small and midsized companies which now represent the pivot point for American economic success. Central to this division is skills: those that have them win, those that do not have them lose.

Workers with high skills can reap the rewards of the new technology, which is higher productivity. Higher productivity is not only the basis of increased pay, it is the ticket of admission to world markets, hence to growth, hence to new jobs and higher pay.

Recently Princeton economist Alan Krueger showed that workers who used computers on the job earned a 10- to 15-percent higher wage rate than otherwise similar workers. On the basis of this study, Microsoft Corp., the software giant, ran advertisements in Time magazine and elsewhere declaring `we make it easier to get a 15-percent raise.'

On the other hand, there is a growing disadvantage to not being well educated and flexibly skilled. Workers with lower skills find that technology either eliminates their jobs or moves them overseas. It is this disadvantage that lower skilled

workers face in the new global, high-technology economy that explains why they are faring increasingly poorly in terms of wages and incomes. It is these lower-skilled workers who are having the rug pulled out from under them. And it is no wonder they are scared by NAFTA .

Now, I do not come to this issue as some latter-day luddite, ready to smash bar code scanners in the supermarket and wall off our borders from foreign imports.

I believe that the change we are witnessing--whether we like it or not--is inevitable. What is not inevitable is our passivity, and our inability to make change work for, instead of against, American workers.

In the past few months I have visited any number of companies in my home State of Massachusetts that have made technology work for them and their workers. Through aggressive R&D, advanced manufacturing technology, and continuous worker training and involvement, they have maintained and often increased manufacturing jobs in Massachusetts, a State where manufacturing is supposedly dead and buried. These include the Bose Corp., a major player in the Japanese hi-fi and automotive parts market, thanks to its constant innovation; and Modicon Corp., which brought jobs back from Asia when it radically upgraded technology and workplace organization. In my State, you simply cannot create new manufacturing jobs with a low-skill, low-wage strategy. You must go the high-technology, high-skill route, and you must export.

The question is, Are we going to learn from the Boses and the Modicons?

Other nations, notably Japan and Germany, have structured their entire economies around the goal of employing their citizens in well-paying jobs. This is the goal toward which government, industry, and individuals work together.

This happened in part because they were poor in natural resources and had small home markets. And so in order to become industrialized nations they were forced to export. At an early stage, therefore, international competition became their obsession. And economic considerations often dominated foreign and security policy. They were not afraid--in part as a result of cultural differences--of an economic model where big business and big government worked together to promote long-term job creation.

But in this country, Mr. President, we are still lacking a strategy that sends out an unmistakable signal to every American that the highest priority of the American Government and American industry is ensuring that Americans have the ability to get good

jobs--maybe not one job for their entire lives, but one or a series of jobs that will support their families for the entirety of their careers.

This strategy needs to address the insecurity that people feel for their economic future and in order to do so it must recognize the centrality of education and training--two priorities on which President Clinton rightly focused during the campaign.

In 1949, we spent 9 percent of our Federal budget on education. We now spend less than 3 percent. An estimated 83 million Americans have inadequate reading skills and the United States is the only major industrialized nation in the world with no formal system or structure to facilitate the school-to-work transition. Federal support for vocational education has declined approximately 30 percent in real dollars over the last decade. Meanwhile, such competitors as Germany spend dramatically more on training the best educated and now the highest-paid workers in the world. American students attend school for 180 days per year while Japanese children go to school for 243 days and German children for 240 days. This means that our children attend school for 25 percent less time each year than their future competitors.

This is unacceptable. There is no question that our priorities have become skewed. The space station will cost us $2 billion this year, while the Federal Government will spend only $630 million on primary and secondary education. Over 80 percent of prison inmates are dropouts, and they each cost us between $15,000 and $30,000 per year to incarcerate. This situation is totally unacceptable.

We should be prepared to use any mechanism necessary to find more money to invest in our one true asset--our people. We can find this money in pork-barrel projects; in entitlement programs; we can reexamine the issue of the gas tax--surely Americans would be willing to pay a few more pennies a gallon to educate our children for the global competition they will face. There are many other places we can look for the resources--if we are serious and committed to the objective.

We need to begin by quickly funneling more money into our education budget. I strongly support Senator Jefford's suggestion that we add money to education spending in increments of 1 percent of the Federal budget until it accounts for 10 percent in the year 2004. I also agree with Senator Simon and Senator Dodd that we must abandon property tax supported education which leads to inequities among school systems.

Next, we need to quickly put in place the School-to-Work Program on which the President and Senator Kennedy have been

working. And we must not be shy about fully funding these, either. This is no place to be penny wise and pound foolish.

We must quickly enact the Worker Adjustment Program that Secretary Reich has been drafting--and I believe that we should attach it to the NAFTA as part of the implementing legislation to ensure that full help is available for all workers who need it. In addition to streamlining our disparate adjustment programs, this plan would make unemployment insurance flexible so that workers could use it as income support while they retrain--a need that did not exist when the UI system was designed to buttress workers who were temporarily laid off. It will also put the Federal Government in the business of smoothing out the labor market's information flows--so that displaced workers can find out where jobs are, what kinds of skills they require, and how they can obtain them.

And I believe, Mr. President, that we should go beyond the administration's current proposals and create an Incumbent Worker Training Program. During the campaign, President Clinton discussed encouraging companies to train their workers and I feel that we must return to that concept. We cannot wait to do this until our companies lose the global competition and our workers are downsized out of their jobs. We must help them retain the jobs they have by ensuring that they are the most technically adept in the world.

But it is not enough, Mr. President, to say `if we train them, the jobs will come.' Because the jobs may not come. A recent 2-year study of the American system of capital investment by researchers at the Harvard Business School raises the question of whether U.S. companies are sufficiently focused on the long-term to be competitive and to create high-wage jobs.

The report points out that leading American firms in many industries are outinvested by their Japanese counterparts; that the R&D portfolios of American firms include a smaller share of long-term projects than those of European and Japanese firms and that American firms invest at a lower rate than both Japanese and German firms in intangible assets--such as human resource development. The report relays the fact that American CEO's believe that their firms have shorter investment horizons than their international competitors. As a result, they sometimes confuse cutting back and downsizing with a solution--restructuring may give a short-term lift to a company's stock but unless the savings are invested in productive assets, it will not help the company compete better with its German rivals over the long run.

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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 05:12 PM
Response to Reply #97
99. 90% of this is just saying what everyone already knows
Edited on Mon Jul-10-06 05:13 PM by Lydia Leftcoast
and much of the rest is insufficient.

For example, merely making workplaces more high tech is insufficient when companies are outsourcing high tech functions to India, Russia, and other highly educated but low wage countries.

There's nothing here about actually penalizing companies for sending jobs abroad (in the form of a hefty and unweasel-outable income tax surcharge) or rewarding them (in the form of preference for government contracts) for keeping jobs in the States.

I see no other way to rein in the greedheads who have had complete run of the corporate world since the Reagan administration.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #99
102. The date of this was Oct, 1993
At THAT point there were very few people saying this - and most were economists. (In 2004, Kerry did speak of using the tax code to reward companies keeping jobs here and penalizing those that don't - bizzarely the current tax code does the opposite.

Consider that Thomas Friedman is essentially saying the same in his book written recently - and on each talk show, he says NO ONE in DC has spoke of the "Earth is Flat" idea. This was a decade earlier.
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mtnsnake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-11-06 07:35 AM
Response to Reply #42
114. I thought Kerry was far from clear
Edited on Tue Jul-11-06 07:36 AM by mtnsnake
All during his mistake-filled campaign, I was trying to figure out exactly what his message was, and the conclusion I kept coming up with was that he had no defined clearcut message. It was like he was trying to appease everyone, and you just can't do that. Way more than once I would come away from listening to his speeches wondering what he stood for.

I don't think he's electable.
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Auntie Bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 05:50 PM
Response to Original message
103. Men shouldn't have trouble voting for Wes Clark. He's a man's man!
He says what he means and sticks to it. However, Bush sticks to false stupid decisions and Clark sticks to intelligent, well thought out, moral policies...and that's the difference.
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politicasista Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #103
105. Don't fall for the OP's false claims
Edited on Mon Jul-10-06 07:15 PM by politicasista
People are just looking for reasons to bash certain democrats just to promote their candidates. This is not productive. I like the General too, I like other dems, but we don't need hindsight. It's 20-20. We need to focus on fighting Bush and his cronies, not look back.

We have a long way to go before 08. We need to focus on 06, and getting a fair and balanced media and fixing the voting machines, otherwise the General or no one will have a chance in 08.
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lildreamer316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-11-06 03:28 AM
Response to Reply #105
112. THANK you.
This thread is such a good example of distraction it's almost funny.
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many a good man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 06:26 PM
Response to Original message
104. Majority of American males suffer from PMBS
PHONEY MACHO BULLSHIT!

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Auntie Bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #104
107. Gee, I thought that PMBS stood for Post Menopausal Bull Sh**.
I stand corrected.
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mhatrw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 06:54 PM
Response to Original message
106. Yep. Men respond to tough talking fighters.
All of this trying to seem conciliatory, reasonable and moderate gets Democrats nowhere.

Dean picked up on this last Presidential election cycle, but the media branded him as an angry frontrunner when he was a tough talking long shot. Not to say that Dean didn't make a lot of campaigning mistakes. I also don't think Iowa is the best place to tap into the United States' collective political pulse.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 08:57 PM
Response to Original message
110. Do men think for themselves?
Because one would think each individual would be different.

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omega minimo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jul-10-06 10:13 PM
Response to Reply #110
111. Penises think with their men
:evilgrin: :wow: :hi:
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