Is today's America the end of an era?

[Stinky The Clown]

The Ottoman Empire. The Byzantine Empire. The Roman, Greek, and Etruscan empires. Egypt. The Rennaisance French and the Italian city-states. The British Empire. The Dutch. The Incas and the Mayans. The Germans and the Spaniards. The Soviets.

Is George Bush, instead of the antiChrist, perhaps the man at the head of America's march to decline? It is certainly reasonable to suggest that while we may still have the strongest military in world history, that the military we have is in decline, bent and broken. Our economy, once the envy of the world, now produces little and makes a profit in shuffling paper and doing deals and raping its customers. The citizenry is in a discernable moral decline, with greed and selfishness rampant where once cocern for our fellow citizens reigned.

I'm sure some can try to paint an opposite picture of our country today, but I have to ask .....

Is America in decline to such an extent that the slide into mediocrity is inevitable? Is the once ascendant America now descendent? If so, can the slide be stopped? Or is it too late?

[SnoopDog]

1. We will know for sure in November...

If Republicans maintain or grow their majority in both houses - yes America is dead. And I have no idea what to do then.

If Dems manage to gain a majority in either/both houses - we may have a small chance to restore our Democracy.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

2. I have wondered about that, also.

Throughout history, all major empires and civilizations have risen, prospered and controlled the world for awhile, and then finally declined, and in some cases disappeared altogether. I have no doubt this will happen to us, too -- it's just a question of whether the decline has started to happen now, and if so, how long it will take. It might be very gradual, or maybe it will occur quickly, in a matter of only a few years. My guess is that it will be more gradual, simply because we are so large and still retain some military and economic strength.

But that strength is being dissipated by overreaching and arrogance (as always seems to happen). I think maybe within the next 20 years or so (assuming no intervening catastrophes such as more sudden than anticipated climate change or nuclear war) we will become a second-string power, like maybe France; and China will be eating our lunch.

[mom cat]

5. Just in case you haven't seen it:

http://www.shanghaiist.com/archives/2006/02/09/ha_ha_ha_americ.php

[welshTerrier2]

3. the final chapter ...

the following excerpt contains the final two paragraphs from Chalmers Johnson's "The Sorrows of Empire" ...

There is plenty in the world to occupy our military radicals and empire enthusiasts for the time being. But there can be no doubt that the course on which we are launched will lead us into new versions of the Bay of Pigs and updated, speeded-up replays of Vietnam War scenarios. When such disasters occur, as they - or as-yet-unknown versions of them - certainly will, a world disgusted by the betrayal of the idealism associated with the United States will welcome them, just as most people did when the former USSR came apart. Like other empires of the past century, the United States has chosen to live not prudently, in peace and prosperity, but as a massive military power athwart an angry, resistant globe.

There is one development that could conceivably stop this process of overreaching: the people could retake control of the Congress, reform it along with the corrupted elections laws that have made it into a forum for special interests, turn it into a genuine assembly of democratic representatives, and cut off the supply of money to the Pentagon and the secret intelligence agencies. We have a strong civil society that could, in theory, overcome the entrenched interests of the armed forces and the military-industrial complex. At this late date, however, it is difficult to imagine how Congress, much like the Roman senate in the last days of the republic, could be brought back to life and cleansed of its endemic corruption. Failing such a reform, Nemesis, the goddess of retribution and vengeance, the punisher of pride and hubris, waits impatiently for her meeting with us."

[Stinky The Clown]

4. Frightening .....

... and so very sad. It didn't have to be this way.

[welshTerrier2]

9. sad and unnecessary ... you said it, friend!!

mrs. wt2 chastised me last night ... i read this thread (http://journals.democraticunderground.com/welshTerrier2/73 ) to her ...

she said it was too dark and too depressing ... no argument from me ...

i see such a horrible dark future ... and yet, in some way, i still think of myself as an optimist ... underlying the darkness and the near total hopelessness, there's this one faint little glimmer that still believes, perhaps naively, that we could wake up just a few ... and then a few more ... and then a few more ...

i'm so negative on the Democrats right now ... i'm not "anti-Democrat" ... but the country is in such desperate trouble and i see the Democrats "playing it safe" ... we may need radical change to save this country ... just as an example without getting into the pros and cons, we might need to ration auto use (or gas) ... we might need to "draft teachers" ... imagine instead of military service or jury duty or whatever that we tried to get teacher/student ratios down to around 1:5 ... we might need to cut the defense budget by half or even 75% ...

we are so desperately in need of leadership that will tell us the truth about the crisis we face and propose real, courageous solutions ... some of these will require very significant political risk ... i worry that no party is willing to take that risk ... some say, well, after we win in November the party can move left ... yeah, right ... if we win in November, they'll be telling us about triangulating for 2008 ...

we're in desperate trouble as a country and probably even as a planet ... it's apparently too dark and depressing to keep raising the issue ... feeling like one very lonely canary in the mine these days ...

[Donna Zen]

32. Patrons and Clients

This is very much like the senate in the last days of republic which operated on a system of patrons and clients. Perhaps that was the most discouraging aspect of becoming too enlightened about what happens on the campaign trail. Of course there was a point when the Roman Senate did try to regroup, but that didn't work either.

I'm afraid from an historical point this is all too familiar. Odd that an organization called "Project for a New American Century" should have put an end to that dream.

There is one possible out as proposed by Kevin Phillips: we could be alright if we could transition to the next source of energy. Currently we are fighting not to make that change, but rather to stand in the fading glory of big oil. Looking at the current flow of American politics, I don't see that happening.

Nevertheless, to stave this demise off at least for a while, I've always thought that our best hope lay not in the old entrenched club of the Senate, but rather in the house. The House in 06...there are some great independent thinkers currently working for those positions. Now, if we could convince Rahm of that.

[izzie]

6. I hate to say it but I think we have started down.

We may call our self the only super power but one can see EU, China and India doing stuff that looks like some thing we have put on the back burner. More and more of their people of talent are getting higher education free and we are making higher education for the rich. It was one of the things we did after WW2 is educate all that fought. Never had a country done some thing like that I think. A second rate man like George Bush gets into a top rate college on his name and that means a person of talent does not go. You need the talent pool of all to produce a great country and we are voting that out with what things our gov. is doing. That is just one thing. The debt is another and I could go on. It is only my way of thinking and I could be wrong.

[AX10]

7. We started our decline when * took power.

[windbreeze]

14. Our decline started way before then....but...

no one was paying attention...
Think back to when women went to work, because their men went off to war...think back to when those men came home, but the women didn't go back home, they kept working...They had found their independence and they liked it..but...their children didn't get a choice...they were expected to adapt to the changes taking place that they had no control over.....they eventually got used to being alone, to staying with strangers, or to taking care of what mother would, if only she were here...I am a woman, and a mother, I worked because I had too, so I tell myself...but...I look back now, and feel that I should have remained in the home..if only to educate our children about what a loving family was, how to work together with what we had, and be happy....how having just the basic everyday things, really was more important in the long run, than having all those material possessions...Families used to go to church together...I venture the majority doesn't any longer...People used to take pleasure in simple things, like a Sunday afternoon drive out to the country, and an ice cream cone as a reward for being good...but the world started getting complicated, around about the time I turned 13....Television came into every home, people stopped talking to each other, visiting, being families...and as the years passed...divorce became commonplace, along with drugs, video games, and violence...computers.....progress we called it...but was it? In the long run, we lost more than we gained..everything became quick and easy....instant gratification became the norm..people don't even sit down to meals any more...it's grab something quick...You see your kids in the am, before school...maybe...or in the pm, after school...maybe...and while we rush around, we miss what's right in front of us...the important things...and it all takes it's toll...

I don't know that my parents ever voted...I don't recall ever having or listening to a political discussion in our home...my dad was a pacifist, I know that..he didn't like confrontation about anything, he was the boss of our home, he supported us, he worked hard, he died younger than he should have....Perhaps if people had paid more attention back then to issues, or about who was voted into office...we wouldn't be in the spot we are in, in this country right now...I wish we had had discussions at home...I wish I had been aware of how important what the gov't does is...because every decision they make, affects every one of us, one way or another...I have attempted to instill in my kids and g.kids...care enough to be aware...pay attention...make yourself familiar with the issues...don't let someone else make your decisions for you...vote...and know who/what you are voting for or against...

I feel there is NO doubt about us being on a downturn...somehow, we, as a nation, fell into the trap called me, and what I want...we discarded thinking about what would be best for all in search of what was best for ourselves only...Somehow there is now a price tag on our house in DC...it is no longer about the best man for the job, it is about who has enough money to buy the vote/s, or who has the most special interests behind them(or who can steal the vote)....The idiot who now represents us (you and I) to the world, should never have been allowed to hold that office...he is an embarassment and I am shamed, every time I hear him speak or watch his actions/facial expressions on the world's stage...a man that we should be willing to revolt to remove if necessary...we have allowed him/his cronies to get away with stealing elections, murder and terrorism, illegally waging pre-emptive war on sovereign nations..outing a CIA agent, spying on us...shredding the constitution....bankrupting our country(so what does that make us?)and so far there has been no payment exacted for any of it...

IMO the ones in control right now, do NOT intend to give up the power they have amassed....Their power grab has taken place, little by little, over decades, it was deliberate, intentional, and very thorough.....they left NO stone unturned in their efforts....I don't see them giving all that power up willingly, either this Nov., or in 2008...and I hope to god I am wrong..

But hey, on a positive note, things are looking up...at least 50% of us ARE finally, at long last, paying attention...I just hope it's not too late...and I hope that those 50%, have enough power to change our direction..otherwise, I fear, we are totally lost...didn't Nero fiddle while Rome burned?....well, we fiddle too...and even though there is no raging fire...this once great nation is being leveled right in front of our eyes...as we watch....and....wait...for something or someone to save us...when we the people, really ARE the only ones who can do so...
windbreeze (forgive me for the dissertation)

[Eurobabe]

22. If US votes another Repube in '08

that is the final nail in the coffin.

[windbreeze]

36. Perhaps the real problem

won't be who's actually voted for...as much as who's counting the votes? Continuing voter/voting fraud may play a significant part..(as Clint Curtis has told us, all the bases are covered)
windbreeze

[Arugula Latte]

26. Let me just take issue with one sentence of yours: "Families used to go to

church together." Yes -- and what a load of crap was shoved down their throats there! They learned that woman was made from Adam's rib (HAH!), that an invisible man in the sky looked down upon them and controlled their actions, that people could screw over the planet because they had "dominion" over the beasts, etc. etc. Dogma. Propaganda. Outright lies. A load of crap... That's religion. The more church attendance declines, the happier I'll be.

[windbreeze]

30. Go ahead...

I don't mind...I used that as an example of one thing families did together in the past...I didn't and don't want/intend to get into a discussion about religion...or what it might mean to any one person...we all make our peace within ourselves...no matter what our own truth might be...and I recognize your right to have your opinion....
windbreeze

[Stinky The Clown]

8. I think your views are very valid

And your point about education is very true.

[izzie]

17. Some place in our history, maybe Federalist papers, I seem to

recall that our founders said once special interest runs the gov. you could kiss it good by and since the first days we have endlessly fought to not let the special interest that Congress would go with take over. Up and down this fight has gone. That seems to be at it top form today and it leaves the general pop. out. The collective voter is what has made so much good in this country and to wards the rest of the world but so many people do not vote and the pool of people are becoming more and more divided in what it means to be an Am. With about 40 percent not even voting you can see this going on before your eyes. Not that everyone could always vote but more percent voted who could. This also cuts in to a dem. A few years ago, maybe 20?, the GOP wanted a Constitutions convention to re-write the Constitutions and now we seem to have a GOP President that seems to be doing it in his own way. All I think, if we are foolish, a move to bring this country, as we know it down. I do not think we will have a war but just this slow rubbing away of what we know and it has already started. Half our 'voters' already seem to poo poo the 'fathers' in not having a divine right to rule person at the head. Many even say Bush is that man and he said God wants him in office. Scary for some one who came from Puritan stock believe me.

[stellanoir]

10. Okay another rec my friend.

In truth, I've wondered long and hard watching our country's rapid decline whether or not it's just that superpowers are no longer appropriate for this still new millennium. . . ?

So we had to be taken down. I never thought it would have been so hard or so fast or accompanied with such unequivocal idiocy though.

It is breathtaking isn't it. . . ?

Hopefully things will improve soon.

[Joe Bacon]

11. America has been in decline since the 1973 Oil Embargo.

THat was the turning point for the fall of the United States. Ever since then, it's been all downhill.

[midnight]

12. I sure hope not.

I feel that the best has yet to be.

[Lindacooks]

13. Let's hope it's the end of repuke rule for a long, long time.

eom

[ProudDad]

15. bush is Nero...

wrapped up with Caligula...

[flaminbats]

16. empires don't always collapse..

About 200 years ago the United Kingdom and Spain slowly came to terms with the fact that a locally run commonwealth is far more sustainable than a limitless expanse of colonies. Yet Nazi Germany, Imperial Japan, and the Soviet Union all learned the dangers of overreach through military defeat and economy disaster.

Will our government seek to maintain military dominance throughout world with no limits in sight? What will it take..a nuclear war, a military coup, or an economic disaster worse than the depression? Or will we start looking to other democracies and follow their example? Canada has an unnoticed military presence, yet how many terrorists or enemies in our world dream about nuking that country? Switzerland has little to worry about strategically..and yet their workers are among the best-payed, healthiest, and most highly educated to be found.

Our country has a bright future ahead if it follows the correct path, but that path will not be easy. Higher taxes, a lower national debt, and a greater willingness to work with new superpowers..like India and China. Or will we take the easy path..lower taxes, more borrowing, and simply taking democracy for granted without even voting? Time will tell, but our actions can still make a difference.

[CTyankee]

38. 2500 years ago Athens set out to spread democracy on the

point of a spear to Sicily. The Sicilian Expedition as it was called was recounted vividly by Thucydides, right down to the melt down of the Athenian League's forces in Siricusa. That disaster caused Athens, a democracy, to lose the Pelopponesian War to Sparta, an autocratic society. Athens lost their democracy and their empire.

Last year I stood at the sea wall in Siricusa and recalled Thucydides warning to other nations not to repeat AThens' folly.
That account used to be taught at our military academies. I wonder if it still is...

[Nimrod2005]

18. Amswer: YES!

[donsu]

19. yes, america is done for - what the bushmilhousegang doesn't do

Global Warming will finish us off.

[windbreeze]

20. Agreed....

and when Mother nature decides to exact her toll for what we have done to this planet...there will be NO human with the ability to stop her...the single most important issue of our time is global warming....every day I read something more about the damage g.warming is causing....the latest was about a dead zone in the oceans...causing dead fish/crabs, etc., to wash up on shore....killed by the shortage of oxygen in the water...this is happening in Oregon..and they figure on it's way to Wash shores, along with various other places on the planet...
windbreeze...

[Zhade]

21. Hopefully, yes.

We don't deserve to be number one in the world.

[Greyhound]

23. Looking around, it appears that we've already declined into mediocrity

Our "strongest military in world history" is spread out all over the globe in an attempt to hold onto our empire, and therefore is unavailable to carry out, what should be, minor operations.

If we would reject the US/European global corporate empire, we could repair and drastically improve our own country. Hell, for that matter it would make the whole world much better if we weren't spending half a trillion $ every year to try to feed the insatiable war machine.

The amerikan empire is collapsing already, we're just too ill-informed to know it.

[Stinky The Clown]

24. Yanno, isn't it funny .....

...... I'm sure I'm not alone in this thinking ..... but I kinda welcome mediocrity in a way. No, I don't wish us decline. But if we were more ... I dunno .... ordinary on the world stage, we'd be less a target and less apt to do the vile shit we all too often do.

[Greyhound]

28. I agree, but don't think it is possible due to the very brainwashing we

have all been subjected to. The guy that can't afford to eat regularly, but always has his car spotless, is a uniquely American character. Another, better example might be the faded beauty queen, I think it sums us up, we will project strength and prosperity long after they no longer are ours, and we will attempt to maintain the image even though it kills us.

I guess what I'm saying is that our national self-image will not allow us to be ordinary, we will voluntarily die first.

[chieftain]

25. You have posed the right question.

W is not responsible for some of the institutional factors which are leading to our retrenchment from great power status. It is clear however that the destructive and, there is no other word for it, stupid policies of Doofus and his rubber stamp claque in Congress and the media has accelerated our decline. When W stole office we were the indispensable power, now we are mired down in unwinnable wars in Afghanistan and Iraq. Our client state, Israel, may well have demonstrated that they are no longer militarily invincible. Our once large middle class, mainly attributable to the New Deal reforms and workers' strength in the Union Movement, is in rapid decline as corporate greed and laissez-faire government conspire to ship both capital and jobs across the oceans.
Our self-ascribed status as the beacon to the world for righteousness and honor is indelibly stained by the atrocities committed in America's name at Abu Graib and Guantanamo. The crime is compounded by the lies told by the architects of these heinous activities as they shamelessly offer up as human sacrifices the privates and corporals identified as the few bad apples who engineered the crimes all on their own.
The RW say that we hate W. It is highly likely that if I knew him personally, I would loathe the swaggering toad. But since I have never had the pleasure that our pundits have had in receiving the glad hand as well as a mildly insulting nickname, I must confine my detestation to his policies which have dragged America's name through the mud while making the future of our children immeasurably poorer and less safe.

[IndianaGreen]

27. America was never meant to be an empire!

The Framers of the Constitution wanted a republic not a king or an empire.

We could have been great, but at the end of World War II we allowed the Europeans to reclaim their colonies, so the French went back to Vietnam.

At the end of the Cold War, we could have been generous and assisted our former Soviet rivals in transitioning their society into a market oriented economy, but instead we decided to unleash unrestrained capitalism on them and on the world.

On the aftermath of 9-11, we could have addressed the underlying causes of the terrorism that led 19 young men to kill so many innocent people. We could have had a fair and balanced policy in the Middle East, a policy having at its core a fair and just settlement of the Palestinian question that included a return to the pre-June 1967 borders. Instead, we exploited 9-11 to instill fear in our own people so they would support military adventures and expansion of American power and hegemony across the world.

Our pride and foolish notions about the world outside our shores has taken us to our own Waterloo in Iraq and Afghanistan.

[Donna Zen]

33. Never meant to be an empire...that's the point

However, the folks at the AEI think that it is the Constitution that is out of wack. They believe that the Constitution was the guide for an agrarian society, not for an empire. We become outraged because they're not beholden to the Constitution. Well, of course they're not; they don't agree with it. They think that we're too dumb to see what they so see so brilliantly. (Read: Gag Rule/Lapham)

Their entire concept is flawed.

[ndcohn]

29. um kinda

there are a few reasons why many of the problems that confronted previous empires aren't entirely applicable

first, the united states faces no threat of military conquest, almost all former superpowers fell in the face of military occupation
second, there is little forseeable risk of the u.s. breaking down into civil strife. many great powers fell since they attempted to conquest different ethnic groups who desired self-determination.
third, while the u.s. is presently risking overstretch, the long term risk of overstretch is low given that the united states will probably hesitate from engaging in international conflict
fourth, while its likely that other nations will rise to power , its unlikely that either would become overtly hostile to the united states due to economic interdependence.
fifth, even if u.s. power did significantly wane, our technological capabilities and massive population makes u.s. resurgence far more likely then previous empires which were usually equal in size and capabilities to their major rivals.

that said, a decline of american power relative to other nations is likely over the next 50 years, but the u.s. will likely not become a 'second rate power' much as britian has in the forseeable future.

the u.s. however, does control its destiny at this point, smart policies can slow this decline, and perhaps even trigger the devolution of state power into a sustainable multilateral system. of course under republican andministrations, this is highly unlikely.

[Popol Vuh]

31. Some food for thought

With respect to everything that is happening; all the people around the world we're pissing off and all the self destruction we're committing against our economy and military. It more and more seems to me like the PNAC crowd are intentionally trying to bring about the One World Government (New World Order) they've been talking about like in Zbigniew Brzezinski's book "The Grand Chessboard".

The only problem (for them) is: people all around the world are resisting. If you were to ask me, I'd say that their plan is doomed to failure because of what always eventually stops empires --- the "working people". IMO empires are self defeating because they ultimately rely upon the very people they fuck over. So sooner or later the jig is up on them and there is not enough working class people left to deceive to defend the aristocracy's empire......Its a house of cards.

What I find interesting is the pandora's box these PNAC idiots are opening up. An example and the food for thought is what we already see happening here in our own country.

Link

Link

[0007]

34. We're got third world status now

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

35. As long as those who want to dismantle our parts and sell us off

to the highest bidder so that they can personally profit are in charge - the answer is a resounding yes. If we, the poor dumb populace cannot reclaim our government and even the notion that government is a good thing, we will become impoverished and enslaved to an oligarchy.

[Bushwick Bill]

37. Yes.

http://ec3.images-amazon.com/images/P/0805077979.01._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-dp-500-arrow,TopRight,45,-64_AA240_SH20_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

[sendero]

39. There is always a chance...

.. for redemption, but look around. How many Americans are waking up? Not enough, not nearly enough to stem the descent.

Our country is falling apart for the same reasons other empires have, namely greed. The thing that the bible talks about at length, yet Americans seem to thrive on it and accept it from their leaders as a matter of course.

As far as I'm concerned, we are already sunk, as a country we are paying one credit card bill with another card and the whole thing is unsustainable.

Our esteem in the world seems to drop daily, as our "leaders" are proven to have feet of clay every time they are presented with a challenge or even a difficulty.

I'm sad for what my kids are going to have to grow up in.