How will you respond to the GOP's final push theme of...

[Norquist Nemesis]

"Democrats are going to raise your taxes"

This is what we're going to be hearing from now through November 7th. We need to be able to counter this in a succinct way.

Anyone who says that to me, I might just blurt out something like, "Wow! I didn't realize you're in the top 2% income level!"

Ideas?

[greeneyedboy]

1. stay on *our* message. let them try to distract people from their failures.

[Norquist Nemesis]

2. So, you're suggesting just ignore it then?

Yeah. That'll work well. :eyes:

[greeneyedboy]

3. staying on our message != ignoring theirs.

no need for sarcasm.

[sweetheart]

4. here's a go at that:

http://www.congressin30seconds.com/?mlink=299

[Norquist Nemesis]

6. That helps with some backup, thanks!

It looks like some are taking my question a little differently than I intended. I was talking about when you're out speaking with people on an individual basis.

I know of a few moderates/independents who ended up voting for Bush in 2004 simply on the basis of the taxes. Selfish of them? Absolutely, IMO. But many of them automatically ascribe the "Dems will increase your taxes" to themselves. Even though it's clearly not the case because they're not in the top 2% bracket.

[kenny blankenship]

5. Repukes are stalking your young son for chat, cybersex, maybe more!

If you're relieved that they won't gay-marry him, remember that they're gonna send him to die in the Middle East somewhere once he's no longer "harrasturbation material."

[calimary]

7. I'd be pushing the following:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2579140#2579628

[Norquist Nemesis]

8. Perfect! BRAVO!

We should all print this out and have it ready!!! :applause:

[calimary]

10. I'm sure others here could come up with LOTS more to add to the

list. In fact, I hope they do.

At the risk of repetition (and PLEASE, DU brothers and sisters, ADD your own points, since I know there's far greater, broader-based, and more thorough expertise here than mine):


If you don't want to pay taxes, FINE. Just don't get all hot and bothered by all those bodies floating down the flooded streets of New Orleans, or the people from there who still have no homes and no food, and then wonder why nothing's done to help them.

If you don't want to pay taxes, FINE. Don't come crying to me when the potholes that never get fixed in your neighborhood streets mess up the front end alignment on your Mercedes.

If you don't want to pay taxes, FINE. But don't complain about the increased numbers of airplane crashes and grounded fleets, because the government isn't hiring safety inspectors, or regulating the airline industry so it's forced not to cut corners on aircraft maintenance.

If you don't want to pay taxes, FINE. But then don't get outraged about the fact that while Camp Pendleton has sent its guys to Iraq, their families back home have so little to live on from combat pay and VA benefits that they're forced to turn to a soup kitchen.

If you don't want to pay taxes, FINE. And don't get yourself worked up because there's no money to properly arm and protect our troops, or house and feed them decently, when YOU voted for the people who were so damned anxious to send them into harm's way.

If you don't want to pay taxes, FINE. And make sure you don't mind all those increases in news stories about child abductions, abuse, molestation, neglect, and murder - because the government can't afford to hire or pay case workers and enforcers anymore.

If you don't want to pay taxes, FINE. Just find a way to be okay with the fact that the widows and orphans of the firefighters who died trying to save people in the World Trade Center don't have enough pension money to live on.

If you don't want to pay taxes, FINE. Perhaps you won't mind eating spinach contaminated with e-coli, since the government won't have enough money to pay food-safety inspectors anymore.

If you don't want to pay taxes, FINE. Just don't bother to schedule a vacation at any of our beautiful national parks, since the government can't afford to keep them anymore, OR protect them from polluters, loggers, strip-miners, real-estate developers and others who'd desecrate those national treasures for short-term profit - because we can't afford the regulators anymore.

If you don't want to pay taxes, FINE. Then make sure you're content that our schools remain under-funded, so their graduates can't manage much more than minimum-wage jobs, which do little to help keep Social Security funded for the future. A poorly-educated work force isn't likely to help our country excel in scientific research, development, or innovation that would generate new jobs and new businesses, and new ways for our country to remain the leader of the world.

If you don't want to pay taxes, FINE. Don't moan and groan about how awful it is to have to trip over so many homeless people huddled in doorways and against the sides of buildings, and always hitting you up for handouts - because there's no help or shelter for them anymore. And the icky messes they leave on the curbs? Try to put up with it, because street cleaners and sanitation trucks cost too much money.

If you don't want to pay taxes, FINE. Make sure you can handle every emergency and any home intrusion, because we won't be able to afford paramedics or sufficient police protection anymore.

If you don't want to pay taxes, FINE. Just don't come whining to us when your garbage is no longer picked up on schedule, and public sanitation goes straight to Hell. Even grover norquist expects his trash to be picked up on time every week, and he'd howl like a stuck pig if it wasn't.

If you don't want to pay taxes, FINE. You're on your own then. Deal with it. You wanted the government out of your life, and you didn't want to have to help pay for the privilege of living in a country like ours. And don't come crying to me, telling me "there OUGHT to be a LAW!!!"

(I could keep going, but there aren't enough hours in the day...)

[Vinca]

11. Great post! nt

[calimary]

13. Thanks. And I thought of something else, too:

I'd BET you HARD MONEY (that I tend not to have much of anyway - :D ) that the loudest complainers about having to pay taxes - to a man and a woman - ALL belong to some fancy schmancy country club, tennis club, golf club, or social club. Outfits like those ALWAYS charge dues. And the better and more desirable the group, the higher the dues it demands for membership privileges. Those same outfits are desirable because they offer all kinds of perks, benefits, fun stuff, fine dining, great services - AND great SERVICE, clean and elegant facilities, gorgeously manicured grounds, plus the tennis courts, the pools, the nine or 18 holes, the complimentary executive privileges, the game rooms, a bar stocked with world-class liquors, and probably restrooms with courteous liveried attendants. It COSTS BIG BUCKS to be able to enjoy those superb and highly-desirable privileges and be part of those organizations, and NONE of those wonderful advantages are freebies. NONE EVER. THEY NEVER COME CHEAP. They ALWAYS come with price tags attached. And if they're worth it, they're worth paying for. Especially for those who'd aspire to be members - who, by their very membership indicate that they accept these price tags and consider those benefits well worth paying for.

OUR COUNTRY IS THE SAME KIND OF THING. Don't we ALL consider it the best country in the world (or at least it USED TO be so, before frat-boy broke in - and broke nearly everything of value)? Don't we love it for all the marvelous benefits and other goodies it offers - that you can't find in most/all other countries? Isn't it a country EVERYONE wants to belong to - hell, why else would we have such an illegal immigration problem? Well, THAT, TOO, COSTS BIG BUCKS. IT NEVER COMES CHEAP. If it's good, wonderful, enviable, and worth having, it's gonna cost something, and it WILL be deemed well worth paying for. Otherwise, move to Darfur or some such place where there is nothing, they have nothing to offer, and I'm sure, the cost of living is far cheaper.

These people who balk at helping to pay for all the marvelous things this country offers us are nothing but stingey cheapskates who want something for nothing. They couldn't do that at the grocery store or Blockbuster or the dry cleaners' or Neiman Marcus. They wouldn't get away with it at the club, either. And yet they want it from the government. Hell, you can't even get your congressional representative for free! THAT price tag is probably the highest of all, next to one for some nuclear submarine or aircraft carrier (other items also likely considered essential by these same cheap-ass whiners - and also NOT free).

What we pay in taxes constitutes DUES for membership in the greatest, coolest, most wonderful "country club" on earth: The United States of America. Yes, even a United States of America thoroughly blighted by the bush regime. Ever hear of the phrase - "you get what you pay for"?

If these stingey Scrooges want to throw around that purported anti-tax slogan about an "ownership society," then so be it. THAT'S why we pay taxes. Because THAT *IS* the very nature of the "ownership society." Because we collectively OWN this country and as owners we are responsible for its care, support, and continued maintenance - and THAT'S what taxes are for. WE are the owners, patrons, shareholders, benefactors and underwriters of this country. And if you don't like it, LEAVE AND GO MOVE TO DARFUR. Where there's nothing to provide anyone any sort of decent life or living conditions, but the price is "right." It'll be nice and cheap, alright. You won't have to pay those damned, dumb ol' taxes, but then again, you won't get squat.

[CrispyQ]

15. Our taxes support our Commons. Most of America could use a refresher course on what our Commons are.

What we pay in taxes constitutes DUES for membership in the greatest, coolest, most wonderful "country club" on earth: The United States of America. Yes, even a United States of America thoroughly blighted by the bush regime. Ever hear of the phrase - "you get what you pay for"?

If these stingey Scrooges want to throw around that purported anti-tax slogan about an "ownership society," then so be it. THAT'S why we pay taxes. Because THAT *IS* the very nature of the "ownership society." Because we collectively OWN this country and as owners we are responsible for its care, support, and continued maintenance - and THAT'S what taxes are for. WE are the owners, patrons, shareholders, benefactors and underwriters of this country. And if you don't like it, LEAVE AND GO MOVE TO DARFUR. Where there's nothing to provide anyone any sort of decent life or living conditions, but the price is "right." It'll be nice and cheap, alright. You won't have to pay those damned, dumb ol' taxes, but then again, you won't get squat.

Thom Hartmann states that we are privatizing the Commons under the republican propaganda that corporate can do the job better & cheaper. However, we are finding out that if they can do it better & cheaper, they aren't. We've seen the horrible results of auctioning off our airwaves to private corporations. What's worse, once it's privatized, the citizens have no restitution. If the water/air quality is poor, if septic systems are in disrepair, corporations can claim their 4th amendment right to privacy & regulatory agencies are not allowed to investigate corporate property or data.

A key point Thom makes is this. Of all the elements in our Commons, our government is the most critical. By placing our government in the Commons, we are truly a government of, by & for the people. If we privatize our government (which I believe is the intent of bushco), then We the People lose control of our government because it is now controlled by corporations who have personhood rights & by claiming their Constitutional rights, We the People will have no voice in how our government is run.

America desperately needs 're-education' regarding the tax issue! I look forward to your post!!
Please pm when you post it, ok?

[calimary]

17. That is QUITE good - "America desperately needs 're-education'

regarding the tax issue!" Good HEAVENS, truer words were never spoken!

Our fellow citizens NEED that re-education - BEYOND desperately!

Unfortunately, it's a big job ahead for us on that, since we'll have to counter-act YEARS of pre-programming by the likes of norquist, newtie gangrene, and all those other wolves in sheep's clothing, hiding behind lofty-sounding organization names like "Americans for Tax Reform" and "Americans for Fair Taxation" and all that.

It was nasty newtie, after all, who fired the first shot in the most recent battles - back in the early 80's, when he was swept into Washington on ronald reagan's coattails. He's the one who issued this UTTERLY EVIL little book of words and phrases - NEGATIVE ones for all things Democratic, liberal, and progressive, and POSITIVE ones for all things republi-CON, conservative, and reactionary. norquist and frank luntz were on his heels, following straight away to help close the deal he worked up. They came up with, among other things, the concept of "Tax RELIEF" - that sounds good, easy to say, easy to remember, and loaded with implication that "taxes" are something you need "relief" from, ergo - they're a bad thing. It's people like him who encouraged this, in the most recent past.

Of course, reagan was a HUGE villain in that, too, because he was a wolf clad in cute-baby-kittens-and-puppies clothing. But because he was a smooth-talkin' former movie star who could read very convincingly off a cue card, and he had a few really great buzz phrases about "it's morning in America," "the shining city on a hill," and "get the government off your back," people just fell all over themselves for him and his nice, folksy, friendly, approachable, aw-shucks schtick.

PARTICULARLY after Jimmy Carter's term in which he spent a weekend in deep meditation and deliberation at Camp David and then came down the mountain to speak of a "national malaise." NOBODY wanted to hear about any harsh realities or some glum doctor's poor prognosis. They all wanted the nice, fun, easy, cheap, happy-talk stuff from the jovial, smiling, congenial, upbeat father/grandfather-type old man. They didn't want to hear harsh reality. They wanted nice Hollywood fairytales with happy endings and simplistic, easy-to-grasp, Readers' Digest soothsaying. They didn't want the "hard werk."

Well, it's human nature, I guess. Who wouldn't prefer good news over bad? Who wouldn't want to be told that everything's gonna be fine and nothing's really that bad and it's all okay and I'll meet you on Easy Street? Hell, I had parents like that - when my dad was going down in the worst kind of arduous, anguished sickness and deterioration, my mom was firmly ensconced in denial-land, thinking and saying everything was gonna be fine. Now that she's going down the same unhappy way, her partner is saying the same thing, every time a doctor's visit or check of her chart is mentioned, or they put her through ANOTHER test - "ahhhh, everything looks GREAT! She's doin' FINE! Results are just perfect! Just fine!" Yeah. MY ASS it's fine. But who wants to face reality when it's bad?

However, at some point, we HAVE TO. We have to grow up, accept the mantle of true maturity, and face it anyway. The adults REALLY DO have to be back in charge. Because we're in a SERIOUS mess and we HAVE to do something concrete, and definitive, to start fixing things. And that means being a big boy and a big girl and facing the things you'd rather not have to face when you'd rather be outside playing, or sleeping in and ignoring the alarm clock, or sitting on your ass waiting for your ship to come in and be handed to you - for free. If the remedy is cod liver oil, then I'm damned if I want to be sweet-talked and given sugar pills.

And I'm realistic enough to recognize AND accept that you DON'T get something for nothing. If it's truly worth having, there's always some price to be paid. It's NEVER free.

[Vinca]

16. And to add insult to injury the damn tax cuts for these people

are charged on the China credit card.

[calimary]

23. Another excellent observation.

And I'll bet they're the first ones to drive around in their nice SUVs with those cute little yellow "Support Our Troops" ribbon magnets - made in China. And flying made-in-China flags on their cars or at their front door.

[CrispyQ]

12. Very nice!

You should consider posting it as it's own thread.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[calimary]

14. I may do that. I'm thinking of making it an upcoming column, too.

Because I'm just utterly SICK of hearing the griping and whining and complaining, and NO connections made to refute the cheapskate sloganeering that NEVER gets answered with specifics or concrete reasons why the moaning and groaning needs to just STOP.

BTW, I hope you and others here DO have your own additional points to add. I know I didn't cover anywhere NEAR what's needed.

[bobbolink]

18. Keep going, pleeeeez! I'll donate some hours to you!

What a beautiful list!

The only thing I saw off-hand that you left out is watching your house burn because there weren't any firefighters left.

Printing out....

This is great, and would make a terrific LTTE!

thanks... I'm so glad someone still has a brain...wish I did...

bobbolink

[calimary]

20. Actually, I - hell - WE could use your perspective and insights on

the poverty issue. You are a front-line trench-fighter on that one. If you've got any points to add, I'm the one who'll say PLEEEEEZ! I'm thinking seriously of doing this as an upcoming column. I'd love to smack the "Gimme Something for Nothing" crowd HARD upside the head! Or as another DUer here sized it up: "it's ME versus WE." And the ME side is the bunch we have to take on - and thoroughly trounce.

[calimary]

21. YOWZA! Found it! The credit goes to BlueEyedSon!

Here's the post I wrote, in which I saved the quote:

I'm putting this in my journal so I can always find it - 10/17/06 - by BlueEyedSon: perhaps THE BEST explanation of why some people condemn liberals, mainly because they're only in it for themselves (ie: no taxes, no regulations, do whatever they want, until somebody else somehow violates their space and then they're screaming that "there oughta be a law!!!!")

"Me vs We, but too un-self-aware to realize the conflict."

That really sums it up. Simply gorgeous. Perfection! Bravo!!! And spot-on as can be.

SEE? Here's proof positive how I repeat myself! :D

[bobbolink]

22. When you're right, you're right.

errrrr... CORRECT. :hi:

And, repeating is good.

Ya gotta treat this bunch like toddlers.... saying everything several times, and it may sink in.

"Read it again, Mommy!"

There ya go... :)

[ieoeja]

9. With more lies.

"Yep, right after we burn your bibles, take your guns and eat your babies."

[Imagevision]

19. Raising taxes is fluff -- Diebold machines/software works