I'm SCREAMING!!!

[sunnystarr]

but no one hears me. I'm not really a "voice" on DU and I keep checking posts that express my outrage but they don't address the points that fuel the explosion going on inside me.

Between Tweety and KO it became clear that John Robert (God I hate that man!) and Peter Hoekstra pushed the administration on putting pre 1991 Iraqi documents on a website to "prove" that there were WMDs in Iraq. Negropante warned that this was a dangerous idea. BUSH IGNORED Negroponte and signed an executive order (or made an executive decision) that backed Roberts and Hoekstra. So the decision was made by the President, the Commander in Chief - who bears the total responsibility for putting nuclear bomb plans on a website. Why isn't this in a campaign ad across the country?? Isn't this treasonous??

Now who was it supposed to convince??? How many Americans read Farsi??? How many Europeans read Farsi??? We do know that the terrorists read Farsi. Putting aside the fact that these documents pre-dated even the Gulf War and all those issues had been handled by UN inspectors. It was reported (either on CNN or MSNBC I can't remember which) that the reason this was so damaging wasn't the nuclear science but the engineering problems that Iraq ran into and solved. Previously the administration had received complaints that this website provided chemical weapons instructions - like in Sarin gas etc. Of course that wasn't made public enough for any public outrage to hit the administration. Then in September ... SEPTEMBER ... they put up the documents that spelled out instructions for a nuclear bomb. Information that had NEVER been made publicly available. It was up there TWO MONTHS!! Complaints and concerns from the EU and the UN (and possibly others) insisting that it be immediately removed from the internet were rebuffed by this administration!! It took the NYT to accomplish this. Then Andy Card had the UNMITIGATED GALL to critize the NYT for printing it!!!

So let's recap this. As long as the American people were kept in the dark that OUR government and PRESIDENT were playing world politics with our lives, it was considered "business as usual" to hand over plans for a nuclear bomb to any terrorist organization or to any nation. Where is the collective scream of outrage from every American???

Then I watch an HBO movie called Hacking Democracy (which comes on again at 11am CST on Comcast in Nashville). Of course I already known many of the things being reported in that movie. While this movie is basically about Bev Harris and her fight to expose electronic voting and their manufacturers, and I realize she's not very popular on this forum, it was great seeing Andy Stephenson immortalized for his extraordinary contributions. In this movie it was reported that John Kerry realized that every precinct that used a certain optical scan machine out west went for Bush. It was reported the he KNEW the election was stolen! Which is why he made his quick concession speech. I SCREAM again! Where is Kerry's commitment to exposing the loss of our democracy - exposing the thieves, the treasonous bastards that are so arrogantly and confidently telling us how the Repugs will sweep the House and the Senate!!!

It wasn't only the central tabulator that could switch an election - it was demonstrated and proved that the cards used in the machines contained an executable program on them and this program could change the results of votes cast on that machine. Then the news here in TN reported that 12 of these cards were missing/stolen but oh now don't ya worry John Q. Public - they deactivated these cards. Of course it would take only a small effort to reactivate them but they don't want us to think about that!

Where is the collective outrage?? How can ANY election be close?? I know there are stupid people out there but never would I have believed that half of this country is so dumb that they continue to believe the lies and ignore the facts. Or are the polls now BS too?? Have they been taken over to report that the R candidates are closing in from behind so that when the machines steal another election no one will question anything because, after all, it was a statistical tie in the polls? Isn't it so handy that we can't even have a recount to prove the theft? Why doesn't this bring a scream of outrage from coast to coast?? I now believe that the Republican machine is capable of doing anything and everything it takes to maintain their power. No tinfoil hat here - they're now permanently obsolete. So I continue to SCREAM into the vapors of the ethernet!!

[young_at_heart]

1. You're not the only one screaming......the media should scream too

The big question----why won't they?

[nadinbrzezinski]

2. They are owned by corporate intersets

who CANNOT afford nny oversight

Yes, it is that simple

[petgoat]

11. The media's job is not just to deliver eyeballs to the ads--it's

to deliver the eyeballs of confident consumers to the ads.

Thus any story that tends to cast doubt on the legitimacy of the regime--
a story about election fraud or about the 9/11 coverup--can not be covered
seriously.

[Uncle Joe]

15. Or another way to put it, hearts and minds,

brainwashing our minds and hardening our hearts. This is why the victims of Katrina were treated as criminals, and some mass corporate media personalities come to the defense of a fascist like Limbaugh making fun of Michael J. Fox's symptoms of Parkinson's Disease.

[petgoat]

17. And Coulter slamming the Jersey Widows. nt

[Uncle Joe]

19. I agree, or as some posters here, have on their little elephant,

"Friendly Fascism for when Compassionate Conservative just doesn't get it anymore".

[Olney Blue]

3. K and R.

[rzemanfl]

4. Take a look at the unsecured voting machines in Pinellas County

Florida in the video forum and scream some more. I was out last night waving signs for Samm Simpson, but I really wanted to be beating on the hoods of cars and screaming into the windows like it was the '60s.

[eleny]

5. I look forward to W answering about all this under oath

I want to sit down in front of my tv and watch the sweat run down his cheeks. I want to post here about his bloodshot eyes and weary, bumbling, fragmented thoughts sans ear-piece.

And I can wait till Tuesday night when the gong will ring in his head.

[Straight Shooter]

6. Their excuse was that they hoped people on the Internet would help them.

By putting those documents on the web site, they said there would be people all over the Internet who could review them and find the proof of WMD intentions or capability.

How STUPID is that!? The only ones who care about helping America anymore are Americans, and very few of us (statistically speaking) read Arabic.

:banghead:

[eleny]

7. so many internets and they had to walk into ours

[Maraya1969]

8. Now that was funny

:rofl:

Thanks for the much needed levity in this God forsaken horror.

[eleny]

22. sure - any time

[frogcycle]

36. And yet the NYT was "committing treason"

when it published info about them spying on citizens that was already on the web ...

[Maraya1969]

9. I went to the local convenience store in tears yesterday and told the cashier

And when I got home I had to call a friend to calm me down because I was on the verge of hysteria.

[Tigress DEM]

10. Outrage is good as a start. We should ALL be outraged.

Here on DU, though outrage quickly turns to pounding on the media for not covering the story, emails to congress, telling our friends the facts and encouraging everyone to vote the pukes out.

As we speak, Cuhyga Cty in OH is being challanged because scanners aren't accurately counting absentee ballots. The key with the election fraud is getting the courts to overturn votes this time when we know how to gather all the information because we are prepared this time.

Even if they "win" by cheating, outrage turns to boots on the ground fighting to take our country back from an illegal regieme.

We have to find ways to PROVE they cheated or prevent it... we can't just assume that because they CAN so easily cheat that they will get away with it. We have to fight until we get it right.

[goclark]

12. My scream for Kerry was loud when I watched

the HBO Presentation.


That is a thousand times worse than a "joke."

Has Kerry made a response that I missed?

[blm]

13. Kerry said that to Arnebeck in DECEMBER - a month AFTER the election.

The film didn't make that clear to the viewer. Kerry learned about it AFTER the concession.

[sunnystarr]

24. He knew the night of the election

when precincts that had the optical scanner and had polled heavily Kerry ended up with ALL and I mean ALL registered BUSH votes instead. The real question is why when he had all that legal machinery in place to challenge the stolen election did he cave in?? Well I guess we know why. He was afraid of the Bush spin machine painting him as a sore loser and he wanted to run again. When are we gonna see some heros for democracy in the Democratic party?? I'm so sick of personal ambitions selling us down the river. Kerry could have made history and instead he caved in for personal greed. Well now that the cat's out of the bag and election fraud has hit major papers and the airwaves they can't use the excuse of not wanting the voters to doubt the integrity of their elections. How long did they think they could keep up the charade??

Maybe now the most important position in the country is the governor of each state. They can control the election machinery just like Jebby boy has for state and federal positions. Blackwell's carnage of the vote in Ohio in '04 had to be under the direction of Taft. You have to wonder why Democratic leadership hasn't been screaming about this every chance they can get. Which leads me to believe that they don't think they can restore honest elections and if you can't beat them join them. So the more Democratic governors the better the hacking. Unless of course they're being paid off and at this point I would believe anything.

The survival of our democracy is in the hands of the American people. If enough Repugs believe that Dems can also hack the machines then there will bi-partisan support to demand elections that are fair and transparent. (Of course all we have to do gain their support is leak that Clinton did it!)

*edited to add what I left out

[blm]

25. That's not accurate. You can ask the election forum experts and they will tell

you the facts. We lived it here at DU. Some of them are VERY intimately involved.

The film took dramatic license....conversations from day to day got rolled into one. That happens.

[sunnystarr]

37. Yes I know they do that

and I remember when it first came up on DU. As I remember there was some conflict about the report and Kerry didn't or wouldn't confirm what he said privately. I just figured that it may have been the (or a) first incident that they spoke of in the movie. I hadn't heard about Kerry knowing about the scan machines being hacked. I just thought there was more than one time that Kerry said something privately - and that made sense to me since he would have had access to those results and was probably watching them all night. I guess in the end it doesn't matter much when he first made a statement. What matters is that he didn't go public with the information and didn't publicly support the findings of the many studies or the hearings that were held. It was very disappointing.

[Clark2008]

49. How's the Ford race looking over in the state capital.

I keep seeing these polls showing Corker well ahead, but on the ground in "conservative" East Tennessee, it just doesn't show that. I see FAR MORE Ford signs and stickers than one would normally suspect in Knoxville - in fact, Ford signs outnumber Corker signs in my Knoxville neighborhood 10 to one.

Are the polls whacked or is it the stupid rural voters (stupid in that they have no alternative media to counteract the 24 X 7 they get from conservative talk show hosts) who are dragging down the rest of the state into KKKorker land?

[Time for change]

52. It was very complicated

Kerry was advised by his lawyers that the situation was hopeless, and that's why he conceded.

In my opinion he was given honest but not good advice. There are a lot of things that we know now that we did not know on the day after the 2004 election.

Keep in mind that John Kerry was one of our leaders in protesting the Vietnam war, and he also led Senate hearings into the Iran-Contra scandal and related Reagan-Bush scandals.

He has given a great deal of service to our country.

Anyone can make an honest mistake.

[Fly by night]

29. Sunny, have you seen "Eternal Vigilance -- The Fight to Save Our Election System" yet?

It is based heavily on our National Election Reform Conference held in Nashville in April, 2005. If you haven't seen it, go to www.eternalvigilance.us , view the five clips and then order the DVD. We have held four preview screenings this week with strong, positive audience reactions. We're working to set up mass screenings at the Belcourt and Vanderbilt. In a little more than an hour, it makes a strong, multi-dimensional and clear case for citizen action to save our democracy.

[sunnystarr]

38. No I haven't seen it Fly ...

but I just ordered it, thanks to you, and now can't wait for it to get here. Thanks a bunch!

[Virginian]

44. Optical Scan machines?

What were they scanning. Why wasn't there a challenge?! Those ballots could have been hand counted. When the first one turned up for Kerry, the others would have been questioned also.

[southerncrone]

14. Ditto

from a fellow Tennessean. You voice my feelings exactly! I've noticed today that that story has seemed to die in the media. More proof they are paid off by big R money. These guys should be arrested for treason & blatant stupidity! Again & again, this pack of weasels undermines the America people & places them in emanate danger. Could any group of "educated" people be this ignorant! Or do they have a darker agenda behind their actions against Americans? The list just grows & grows.

Don't have HBO & am dying to see Hacking America! :toast:

[redacted]

16. Exactly! Where are the MUSHROOM CLOUD campaign ads?

Is Howard Dean not paying attention?

[Hoping4Change]

18. k & r

[Gregorian]

20. Where's the media!

All I can do is posts a reply, and kick this up again.

I know. We here on DU know. And care.

Others would know, and maybe even care, IF we had a media.

It has been rough. Very rough. Right now my head hurts, and I'm filled with disgust.

These times were predicted. I was hoping they could have been avoided. I'm proud of everyone on DU. The rest... I'm not so sure.

[alfredo]

21. They should have their security clearances yanked.

They will be investigated.

[eppur_se_muova]

23. Klaus Fuchs got fourteen years, the Rosenbergs were EXECUTED.

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_and_Ethel_Rosenberg

The Rosenbergs were convicted on March 29, 1951, and on April 5 were sentenced to death by Judge Irving Kaufman under section 2 of the Espionage Act, 50 U.S. Code 32 (now 18 U.S. Code 794), which prohibits transmitting or attempting to transmit to a foreign government information "relating to the national defense."

Use those as guideliines while considering what Bu**sh**'s sentence should be.

[mahatmakanejeeves]

26. "... John Robert (God I hate that man!)...."

John Roberts? The Chief Justice? The CBS correspondent?

ITYM Pat Roberts, the Rethuglican senator from Kansas.

[sunnystarr]

27. You're right ...

I guess my scream scrambled my brain cells when I was typing. Thanks for the correction!

[AntiFascist]

28. Notice the Republican talking points on this...

they will argue that these secrets are already out there, and all it takes is a little library or internet research. The fact is that, not only were these instructions posted in Arabic, but they included levels of detail and engineering that were never previously made available, and are still considered top secret.

[vixengrl]

34. They certainly did make it into one nice, convenient

package for any interested party. Too convenient--it's impossible to imagine something this dangerous being done from sheer incompetence alone.

Where is the benefit in *encouraging* nuclear proliferation?

[AntiFascist]

35. It could only benefit crazed religious people...

the ones who fantasize about the apocalypse and the ensuing rapture. It would be interesting to see how they felt after it struck in their own backyard.

[MasonJar]

30. Aren't you talking about Pat Roberts (the a==hole of the century)?

[Peggy Day]

31. I'm screaming too! Seems the only power we have is financial

at this point. Boycott any company that supports media that is fake. Give money to the ones that will report real news.
They do have a lot of nerve posting something like that on the internet.Then, getting mad at someone else when it is exposed. It is their MO.

[AtomicKitten]

32. I'm sorry ... these issues aren't petty enough for the media to explore.

They are only interested in tabloid caliber crap.

[williesgirl]

33. k and r

[SoCalDemGrrl]

39. Kerry had no choice in absence of CONCRETE proof.. and we still dont

have that proof and I mean undeniable PROOF that the Repubs

stole 2000 and 2004. We all know it happened but until

we can prove without a shadow of a doubt we'l be called

SORE LOSERMEN and the complicit media will echo that refrain.

John Kerry knew it and had to concede. That is what is so

isdidious about voting machine mainpulation - you know it's happening based

on exit polls and such but HOW DO WE PROVE IT?????

[AikidoSoul]

40. MORE!!! Reasons to SCREAM.... HARD DATA WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HERE.....

I've been involved with discussions and knock-down battles between voting activists and computer scientists for several years now. Our disgust with some of the computer scientists has been with delays they have created in getting important information out to the media. This was mainly influenced by their inherent conservatism, non-disclosed self-interest (monetary investments and grants/subsidies by computer/ software firms), and even secret investments in computerized voting machines, which makes their recommendations TAINTED by any standard. The result is that they have maintained FOR YEARS that all voting should continue to be done with computer technology.

Very recently there is a change. Avi Rubin (Johns Hopkins University).. changed his opinion to state clearly last week that paper ballots are the only answer. That was done very publicly on National Public Radio on Science Friday last week. It took Avi Ruben six years to get to that statement... but too late... two weeks before the election. And now... Dan Wallach of Rice University speaks out and says something that we've been trying to get ANY OF THEM to say for years.

Now Wallach admits now, out loud, that ALL THE PROBLEMS SEEN BY COMPUTERIZED VOTING MACHINES BENEFITS REPUBLICANS AND SCREWS DEMOCRATS.

This e-mail is below from my friend David Dudine who has worked with me since 2002. It shows a progression of e-mails between him, Wallach and major news outlets.

************************

Greetings,

As a citizen activist on the electronic voting catastrophe, I have had it up to my eyeballs with pundits, reporters and experts accepting the word "glitches" to describe the computer voting errors which have been discovered by voting officials, academic experts and citizen investigators. Why?
Because it looks to me like these dumb machines produce "glitches" that always favor Republicans. So, I decided to ask some of the nation's top experts if this is true. As you can see, there are four reporters also receiving these messages to and from Dan Wallach.

My first question to the experts may have been poorly constructed, and the answers I received prompted me to try a second time. Copied below is this second question and the answer from Dan Wallach of Rice University, followed by my reply to him:
-------------------
From: David Dudine <[e-mail]>
To: Dan Wallach <[e-mail]>
Cc: "David L. Dill" <[e-mail]>, "Peter G. Neumann"
<[e-mail]>, Lynn Landes <[e-mail]>, Bev Harris <[e-mail]>, Avi Rubin <[e-mail]>, Barbara Simons <[e-mail]>, Will Doherty <[e-mail]>, Robert Kibrick <[e-mail]>, "Douglas W. Jones" <[e-mail]>, Chuck Herrin <[e-mail]>, <[e-mail]>, <[e-mail]>, <[e-mail]>, <[e-mail]>
Date: Wednesday, November 1, 2006 12:24 PM
Subject: Re: Party affiliation of computer voting equipment

OK. Let's try this another way. Maybe I suffer from Kerry syntax disease.

Have most of the so-called "glitches" that have been attested to by local voting officials or discovered by investigators or discovered candidates favored one party? Or, have these "glitches" favored both parties equally, when viewed in the aggregate?

If these "glitches" have in the aggregate favored one party, which one is it?

If these "glitches" have in the aggregate favored one party, what is the scientific explanation of why these dumb machines which lack any ability to favor one party over the other are behaving in this manner?

Can I get some responses on this?

Regards,

David Dudine
----------------
From: Dan Wallach <[e-mail]>
To: David Dudine <[e-mail]>
Cc: "David L. Dill" <[e-mail]>, "Peter G. Neumann"
<[e-mail]>, Ashley Simmons Hotz <[e-mail]>, Lynn Landes <[e-mail]>, Bev Harris <[e-mail]>, Avi Rubin <[e-mail]>, Barbara Simons <[e-mail]>, Will Doherty <[e-mail]>, Robert Kibrick <[e-mail]>, "Douglas W. Jones" <[e-mail]>, Chuck Herrin <[e-mail]>, <[e-mail]>, <[e-mail]>, <[e-mail]>, <[e-mail]>
Date: Wednesday, November 1, 2006 2:59 PM
Subject: Re: Party affiliation of computer voting equipment

All the reports I've seen have generally been at the expense of Democrats. However, there are a variety of non-sinister explanations, such as Republicans being at the top of the ballot and the touch-screens being miscalibrated.

Dan
--------------
From: David Dudine <[e-mail]>
To: Dan Wallach <[e-mail]>
Cc: "David L. Dill" <[e-mail]>, "Peter G. Neumann"
<[e-mail]>, Lynn Landes <[e-mail]>, Bev Harris <[e-mail]>, Avi Rubin <[e-mail]>, Barbara Simons <[e-mail]>, Will Doherty <[e-mail]>, Robert Kibrick <[e-mail]>, "Douglas W. Jones" <[e-mail]>, Chuck Herrin <[e-mail]>, <[e-mail]>, <[e-mail]>, <[e-mail]>, <[e-mail]>
Date: Wednesday, November 1, 2006 5:40 PM
Subject: Re: Party affiliation of computer voting equipment

Dan,

Thanks. You comfirm my impression that Democrats have been the losers in all of these "glitches". It is my opinion that in high-stakes political matters the sinister explanations should be at the top of the list. In the present case, the appalling design, implementation and public opacity of these machines gives the non-sinister possibilities quite a boost.

I have no doubt that the Democrats would love to have their loyalists controlling the secret software. I would not be surprised if the DLC has a committee trying to put together a buy-out of Diebold and ES&S. The fact remains that the secret software and firmware and Rube Goldberg hardware is under control of corporations whose loyalites are in some cases known to lie with the Republicans.

On another topic, I am struck by the stunning leadership of the Montana legislature in adopting old fashioned paper ballots for all elections. The Senator and software engineer who introduced the bill gave an interview on TV last week that should be seen by all Americans. Regarding the "solution"
of voter verifiable paper records being produced by computers and held as the official vote count, he produced the most dependable and wildly cost-effective tool for filling out such a record. It is a pencil.

His name is Wiseman.

Best regards (and heaven help us),

David Dudine
---------------

There you have it. The dumb, politically neutral machines overwhelmingly cheat Democrats out of their votes. I hope that this opens up a host of questions in your minds that you want to find answers for. Here are four from me:

What is the procedure for calibrating a touch screen machine and in whose employ are the people who perform and verify the calibration?

Have the touch screen machines been proven to be mis-calibrated in all known cases in which Democrats have been cheated out of votes?

Have Republicans been at the top of the ballot in all known cases in which Democrats have been cheated out of votes?

What are the other non-sinister explanations for the pro-Republican behavior of computer vote counting equipment, and can all of the possible non-sinister explanations account for all of the known so-called "glitches"?

Does anyone know how many Democratic votes have been flipped or erased by using the proven hacking methods for which there is absolutely no electronic "trail" within the computer equipment?

I hope some of you will find this line of inquiry worth your time to pursue.

Regards,

David Dudine
Jasper, IN

[dchill]

41. Well, Sybil Edmonds reads Farsi...

I'm sure there are many others. I scream with you - Republicans are traitors. STUPID traitors.

[aquart]

42. If it makes you feel better, I don't think they read Farsi.

Arabic, English, maybe a few other languages, and possibly Farsi, but no way was that a sure thing. I thought the documents were in arabic. THOSE they could read.

[mistertrickster]

43. Kerry's a pussy. He used his personal fortune to pull away from Dean

when nobody else would back him, and IOWA (Idiots Out Wandering Around) thought he was more "electable."

After he won the primaries, you never heard him talk about health care or "two Americas" or corporations out-sourcing jobs and not paying taxes again.

He let the swift-boats liars beat him to a bloody pulp while he stood around looking confused.

As for "there wasn't enough evidence of election fraud," the exit polls--SIX PERCENT OFF the official results--are enough evidence by themselves without any corraborating facts.

But it didn't bother Kerry--he still had his wife's mega millions and his Senate job. It was the great majority of Americans who suffered and continue to suffer today under Bush's "welfare for the rich" social policies and his war without end in Iraq.

Hopefully we've learned our lesson: run a DEMOCRATIC candidate next time.

Lastly, what he said about "get an education or get stuck in Iraq" WAS really stupid. He should have known how that would sound and how it would be used, even though it's not what he meant; he of all people should know what the reich-wing would do with it.

On edit--I know this is flame-bait, but, hey, sometimes the truth hurts.

[bilgewaterbill]

45. No flame here. You nailed it. nt

[elehhhhna]

47. Having a creepy feeling we were Skulled and Boned.

[Greyhound]

48. Party leadership is pretty well committed to keeping candidates

that promote real change, the fundamental, society-changing kind of change, out of contention.

[reprehensor]

46. Primal Scream Therapy

It's good for ya.

[Babsbrain]

50. We are the Silent Screamers

We sit at our keyboards and pour forth our silent outrage to a silent audience.

I blame the Democratic leadership to a degree for not giving us a voice, for not unifying us and allowing us to show our collective strength and disgust.

I am new here and have no real voice but I would like someone with a 'voice' to ask all democratic voters to wear blue at the polls. It will be our 'exit poll' and will show our solidarity against and contempt for all that is Republican.

Thank you.

[nannah]

51. Believe it: they continue to believe the lies and ignore the facts

I couldn't agree more with what you are saying in your post. and i especially find people's lack of awareness overwhelming.

You said "I know there are stupid people out there but never would I have believed that half of this country is so dumb that they continue to believe the lies and ignore the facts."

I didn't realize how bad it really is until yesterday when i went doorbelling for a congressional candidate in WA state. I was doorbelling in a community southeast of seattle; it was an older neighborhood of homes built in the 70's i would guess, smallish, single story homes, some well maintained and others not so well. no walled, multi-storied homes here.

i was supposed to be doorbelling people who were likely to vote with the candidate. about half of my list were supporting the candidate and had already voted or were committed to do so. but another disturbingly large number said they were undecided. that was truly a surprise to me.

however it is not stupidity on the part of people; management of information is a highly developed art among those who hold power and these same folks control the content and dissemination of most of the information in America; internet and independent media being the exception.

life for many people in the US is a hard scramble that begins early in the morning and ends in a fatigued haze before the TV at night. these were the folks i was visiting; concerned and confused. not liking the negative advertising. feeling afraid of being attacked. feeling tired and caught up in their own world's demands.

in these households, not knowing their own hot spots or issues, i would ask if they were happy with how the country was going and if it was working for them. asked in this open ended way, they all said no; with that opening I described the danger when one party controls all branches of government and they don't perform the critical job of congressional oversight.; i explained the need for issuing subpoenas and putting people under oath to investigate problems like lost billions in Iraq, etc. people responded favorably to this idea.

at campaign headquarters, i was told it is expected that 85% of these undeclared voters will vote for the candidate at the point of voting.

[frogcycle]

53. Kicking and screaming