Pro-Impeachment People, What is Your Goal?

[Barack_America]

What exactly do you think the outcome of an impeachment would be?

Do you really think you could convince 2/3 of the Senate to convict Bush? (remember, we only have 51%)

Do you really think that he will end up with a criminal conviction?

Do you really think that the American public would support the distraction and chaos that impeachment would cause when American soldiers are still dying in Iraq?


I understand that you hate Bush, but do you hate him more than you want the Democrats to succeed? Do you hate him more than you want to get the hell out of Iraq?

I also understand the need for investigations, so long as they don't interfere with putting this country back on the right track and getting us out of Iraq. Hell, if you hate him so much, you can impeach him after he leaves office so that he can never hold public office again.

I just don't understand going through the whole charade now when there's so much else to be done...


edited for grammar

[noahmijo]

1. Democrats will take the smart road don't worry

I had some comments on this subject

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2635367&mesg_id=2635367
Democratic Underground - We CANNOT push for impeachment right now


"A bullet through the heart does more damage than a volley of missles that miss the target"


That's the message I am trying to push out there.

[southerncrone]

11. Agree 100%

Take care of urgent issues for the people: get war under control & boys back home, increase minimum wage, health care.
All the while, quietly going about our investigation and when they LEAST SUSPECT IT...BAM!
Allow them to become complacent, thinking we won't pursue impeachment. They think we're just a bunch of nice guys who finish last anyway.

[Lars39]

2. Investigating and impeaching bush and company would not be a charade.

In case it has escaped your notice, they are criminals who took us to war on lies.

[Barack_America]

5. If you start impeachment, knowing that it cannot succeed...

As we know that it can't (remember the 2/3 majority), then that comes pretty darn close to the definition of a charade!

[Ninja Jordan]

22. It would be political suicide. It hurt the GOP badly in '98.

[Lars39]

30. Because real people didn't care whether Clinton got a bj or not.

People care that bushco has lied us into a war that has killed almost 3000 troops, maimed thousands more, ruined our economy and are profiting from both.
People know they are corrupt to the core. And if they don't they are comatose or complicit.

[Morgana LaFey]

49. It hurt the GOP badly not because Americans are anti-

impeachment, but because they're anti-witch hunts and unfairness and pettiness and political games that are meanspirited and ruthless and pointless and are WASTING TAXPAYER MONEY on top of it all.

The GOP overreached and they overreached badly on the issue of impeachment, and Americans saw thru it.

Remember there are pre-election polls showing 52% of Americans WANT Bush impeached.

[BootinUp]

3. This might be a good place to plug my poll:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2948216&mesg_id=2948216

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Barack_America]

6. Please explain to me what the rising facism is and how...

exactly this would prevent it??

[nebenaube]

12. by further exposing what really happened and who's behind it.

[Lars39]

14. Educate yourself:

4 Defining Charateristics of Fascism - We now have all 14.

Edited on Sun Dec-19-04 03:26 PM by radio4progressives
The 14 Defining Characteristics Of Fascism
Free Inquiry http://www.secularhumanism.org/fi /
Spring 2003; 5-11-03

Dr. Lawrence Britt has examined the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia) and several Latin American regimes. Britt found 14 defining characteristics common to each:


1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.

6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to (sic) media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

Free Inquiry, the magazine that celebrates reason and humanity, is published quarterly by the Council for Secular Humanism. Edited by philosopher Paul Kurtz
<http://www.secularhumanism.org/home/kurtz/index.htm > , Free Inquiry
presents scholarly and popular articles relating to secular humanism, atheism, church-state separation, and issues affecting the rights of religious minorities. For more information, contact us at [e-mail] .

[Barack_America]

17. I'm sorry, by "WE"...do you mean North Korea?

cuz, to say that the US fits those categories is a bit of a stretch.

Fascist governments usually don't allow themselves to be voted out of power, yet that seems to have happened here last night.

If I need to educate myself, then I think you need to medicate yourself.

[dchill]

28. "a bit of a stretch."

So we should wait until there's no stretch? There is still a dangerous, unbalanced criminal mind or three in the White House. I don't think they're done yet, and neither should you.

Just sayin'.

[BBG]

35. silly wabbit...

don't you get it? the fascist party is in power and has control of the executive branch and the legislature until next year. and even then if they allow for the transferrence of the legislative branch to the elected democratic majority they retain the executive. and make no mistake about it, they are fascists.

[laugle]

51. TOUCHE!!! LOL.....

[Donald Ian Rankin]

60. Oh gods, not these again...

Firstly, they're total bullshit - he's left out the most important one, which is "military dictatorship".

Secondly, the degree to which most of these fit America is far lower than that of the overwhelming majority of other countries, so if you were to use them to claim that America was going fascist you'd have to claim that most of the rest of the world was too.

It's fairly obvious that Dr Britt has started out with the desire to demonstrate that America is going fascist, and then tried to come up with characteristics to prove his point. It says a lot about him that even reverse-engineering like that, he still failed.

[MGD]

29. Attack their plans and ideas, not their tools. nt

[happydreams]

7. One word

ACCOUNTABILITY!

[Barack_America]

10. Accountability, I understand. But why impeachment?

Why impeachment when it WILL NOT SUCCEED? Why will investigations not suffice?

[happydreams]

15. You do not KNOW it will not succeed. Let me say a little about the

process. As the investigations unfold and the crimes of these slime are exposed every national politician that does not call for Bush's removal from office will go on record. THAT will set the record straight on exactly where the REpug party's moral barometer is. They better cross the aisle if the crimes warrant.

[Webster Green]

16. That is a pre-11/7 mindset...

Everything changed on 11/7.

You cannot know if an impeachment would succeed, if you haven't examined any evidence.

Mmm-kay?

[Barack_America]

21. Inevitably it will backfire...

Do you really care more about exposing Iraq than getting out of Iraq?

If so, then by all means BEG for impeachment! Then the remaining Republicans will rally around Bush saying that it's wrong to impeach the President while we're still at war and that the only reason that the Democrats are doing so is because they have no plan for Iraq. Thust the impeachment would be defeated. It would also be a good rallying cry for the Republicans 2008 Presidential Bid too.

Yep, sure sounds like a good idea to me!

[Webster Green]

26. Disagree...

I want investigations. I want accountability. If the investigations uncover impeachable offenses, then impeachment proceedings begin.

Thats the way it works.That is rule of law.

Your opinion is that political triangulation trumps rule of law. I disagree.

You won't change my mind.

BTW, I think most Murkens would love to see the little weasel impeached, and their legislators just got a lesson that they better start paying attention to the will of the people.

Got it?

More:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2947884&mesg_id=2947884

[Barack_America]

32. Unfortunately, in Washington political triangulation does

seem to trump the rule of law. It will be political triangulation that would defeat any impeachment attempt for the reasons I outlined above. I do believe that the will of the people could overcome this and potentially pressure some Republicans to crossover and give the 2/3 majority. But I don't think that people will support impeachment hearings until we are out of Iraq.

[Webster Green]

37. Time to change Washington, DC then....not abandon our values..

Thats all I got.

[Wilber_Stool]

18. We give repubs a choice

Either join us in impeachment or be investigated and put in jail. They have to be shown who's boss.

[Barack_America]

24. Who's boss? I'm sorry but do you think this is Washington

or a Dirty Harry movie? This is the governing of our nation, not a power-mongering vengeance fest! If you are of the "show them who's boss" persuasion, perhaps you would feel more comfortable on the other side.

[Wilber_Stool]

57. No, it' not a movie

and it's not a playground game either. Shake hands with the losers and play nice. Bullshit. This is real. You want this to happen again. We didn't get Raygun when he did the same thing and that's why they tried it again. This is our duty, not a choice. You want to continue to be the gutless spineless party? Then start another one. There's no place for it in the future. Some really though choices will have to be made that will piss of a lot of people. There will be no place for the timid.

[iconoclastic cat]

8. To investigate a possible crime, and then prosecute if one occurred. nt

[beaconess]

9. Short-sighted vengeance?

[QC]

13. BINGO! n/t

[gaspee]

19. President Pelosi?

[razors edge]

20. it would be like placing

a magnifying glass on an ant, while the rest of the mound scurries away, I vote we get a can of RAID, and kick em in the balls as a whole.

[Gregorian]

23. It seems inevitable.

Crimes were committed. It's our duty to impeach.

I'm not pro-impeachment. I want productivity with our new power.

We can do it all.

But to answer the question, I believe that impeachment opens the door to international inquiries which may otherwise not happen without it.

[Barack_America]

25. But why is it the first priority?

I still don't understand how you think it is beneficial to our country and the Democratic party to start criticizing the Republican's Iraq policy before implementing our own?

[RestoreGore]

61. The Republicans don't have a policy...

That's the point. And Democrats will not be able to implement their own if Bush is there to veto it. So according to you, winning was good enough and Bush is forgiven for his crimes as long he plays nice? I sure hope that isn't what you are saying, because that makes you an accomplice in the end. It would not matter what Party he belonged to, impeachable offenses against the people and this country cannot stand. Period. Democrats constantly say they can handle national security ... well, impeaching those who abused our Constitution to put this country in more danger is the first step to insuring national security. And the only "policy" to be implemented regarding Iraq is to GET OUT. That shouldn't take up too much time to for once do the right thing, should it?

[AndyTiedye]

27. INVESTIGATE! Then EVERYONE Will Demand Impeachment!

Impeachment will not just be our show. Republicans will demand it as well,
once everybody knows that they let 9/11 happen on purpose, and lied us into a
disasterous war, that they have been robbing us blind for 6 years, selling us out
to gangsters like Abramoff...

[Barack_America]

33. People will not support impeachment until we're out of Iraq...

If the Dems can solve the Iraq problem, THEN they have the political clout for impeachment.

Start a select number of investigations now, get us out of Iraq and THEN see if there is evidence and support to warrant impeachment.

[inthebrain]

42. Investigations would be a great place to start

We need to get down the defining characteristics of this problem. Get good look at what it's grown out of and who encouraged what.

We know bush was up to some dirty games but I wonder the wisdom in doing that right now. We have some clout to push some generous minumum wage increases and health care reform.

We could lose this in two years if we don't play our cards right. Think of how much time we have.

[AndyTiedye]

47. This Isn't Some Stains on a Dress. These Bastards Have Been Wrecking Everything!

[inthebrain]

54. I don't deny that

But there is an issue of time here.

Could we still investigate this stuff when he's out of office?

The Democrats have two years to make this thing work. I wonder the wisdom of taking such a gamble given such a short time frame. Think of what we can do with that to make a difference in peoples lives?

Given the scenerio, I'm conflicted about where that leaves us. We still have Lieberman in the Senate to stab us in this back.

[Barack_America]

63. You can ABSOLUTELY investigate this stuff when he's out...

of office! You can even impeach him after he leaves office. Success would barr him from ever holding public office again.

[Padme Amidala]

31. I don't know if we can get 2/3rds to support the American people

Impeachment is what the people want. Are we going to have a lame duck Democratic Congress until the Democrats are kicked out from whimpiness in 2008? I'd rather see an energetic Congress impeach the whole gang of crooks and lock them all in jail.

[Barack_America]

36. Control of both the House and Senate is NOT a lame duck

congress. Couple that with Bush's approval ratings and the Democratic Congress is set to run the show in Washington. But they have to run it wisely and not make the mistakes that the Republican congress made when they were under the same circumstances. Impeachment was one of those mistakes.

[Lars39]

38. You don't want him impeached, imprisoned,censored or even ignored,

do you?

[Barack_America]

40. I would LOVE to see any of these things...

But what I really want to see is 1). An end to Iraq, 2). Progress on the Democratic agenda and 3). A Democrat in the White House in 2008.

Impeachment at this time jeopardizes each and every one of these things.

[Lars39]

41. Impeachments start with investigations.

Democrats can multi-task.

[Barack_America]

43. Knowing that the MSM likes to fixate on scandal, what do you

propose that the Democratic congress should do first? All of the pro-impeachment people seem to think that investigations leading to impeachment is issue no. 1. Do you agree? How do you think it would resonate with the American people to hear that the first thing that their newly elected congress is going to do is to hold hearings to figure out who screwed up Iraq rather than to hold hearings to figure out how to get out of Iraq.

The Dems were elected because the voters of this country don't think that the Republicans can fix Iraq, therefore the first responsibility of the new congress is to show them that they can!

[hijinx87]

53. very true. and an outstanding point about the MSM

the second impeachment is in the air, the MSM will obsess
over it. it will suck the life out of every other story
in washington. nothing else will get so much as a minutes
worth of air time or a significant bit of print.

the public won't support our agenda because they literally
won't know anything about it.

and anyone that denies this simple and obvious truth wasn't
paying attention to the MSM feeding frenzy when the rethugs
impeached clinton.

[LoZoccolo]

34. You ask good questions, and the results are what I'd expect.

People playing checkers when they should be playing chess.

I think a good thing to do while we have some time before 2008 is for us to study a little game theory.

[dartplayer1]

39. Exactly what do Democrats here expect now that they have won the Congress?

I know what everybody else expects, but what exactly, no broad sweeping, "It'll all be so much better" generalities

[AtomicKitten]

44. tar and feathers

figuratively speaking

[gardenista]

45. I was hoping that my obsession for revenge would result in

my party leaders not being able to set out a clear agenda and frame their position nor create a unified front in preparation for the 2008 elections.

[Barack_America]

46. Ha! Very well put...

(sigh) At least we're having a good discussion on these threads!

[Dr Fate]

48. I am for it only if it is supported by the people. I am for some investigations...

Nothing wrong with some watch dogging and some ethics enforcement.

Censure is a realistic goal...

[laugle]

50. Don't worry, the Dems are not stupid, there should

be some investigations, but unless the majority of the country wants it, there will not be impeachment hearings.

I think it is right to talk of investigations into 911, NSA wiretapping without warrants and the biggest one is the events that led to this useless war.

Only when the truth comes out will we know what the country wants us to do with these criminals. Until then, it would just look like revenge and we have to start thinking about the 2008 election!

We must tread very carefully......

[Morgana LaFey]

52. It's not about hate ajd it's not a charade. It's THE Constitutional

means of redressing wrongs by a sitting president and vice-president.

My goal?

I want to see:

* all the wrongdoings of this administration laid bare for all to see.

* all Republican extremeists who supported, aided andabetted this administration fully and completely exposed.

* the media brought made to look at and be held accountable (by the people) for their own inadequacies and complicity in all these wrongdoings.

* the Bush Family exposed for the traitors they are.

Impeachment can be done without tying up the entire Congress, so that there's plenty of available manpower to get other things done.

[ProudDad]

55. Let's see

Clinton:
A wheasel and a semen stained dress
(of course, his real crimes were not prosocuted -- NAFTA, the "welfare reform", NAFTA, etc.)

Bush:
Allowing the first attack on U.S. soil since 12/7/1944
Lying the U.S. into a war -- 3000+ U.S. dead, over 20,000 U.S. wounded, over 600,000 Iraqis dead
Eliminating Habeus Corpus (after 500+ years)
Torture, Disappearences, denial of the franchise, selling out the working class...

Uh, how much else to you want.

-----------

Of course, they can't remove him from office, can't get the required 2/3 in the Senate.

But their crimes MUST be exposed!! This must be done for future generations and for '08. The bush crime family must take their rightful place in the pantheon that includes Stalin, Hitler and Nixon.

I'm not too worried though, Conyers will do enough to show most folks what the bush crime family and their fellow-travelers are like and have been doing...

Hell, I might even get cable to watch Conyers, Waxman and Rangle on CSPAN...

------------

on edit: I remember the Watergate days. It took years of exposing the facts before the movement towards impeachment was clear enough to make Nixon resign (in disgrace)! The Congress had to INVESTIGATE before the evidence was uncovered sufficiently enough to make impeachment (and conviction) inevitable.

It would be COWARDICE to choke off such investigation at this juncture.

[The Brethren]

56. what is my goal?

as a "Pro-Impeachment" person, obviously to impeach him. Every single legislator ---- Democrat and repug took an oath first and foremost to do their job to uphold and protect the Constitution and our rights. That is NOT a partisan issue, nor an option....nor an issue of what is convenient to either party or "interfere"s w/ their "agenda". bush has not been investigated and held accountable for his blatant abuse of his job....which is also that of a paid public servant and his failure to uphold and follow his oath. The only reason this jerk has not been held accountable till now is because the repug majority failed to do their job and follow their oath ...which is spelled out for them in plain English in case they and anyone else should forget. Thus, he has been allowed to have full, unchecked rein of power.

And for those who insist why bother cuz we can't impeach him anyway - you are certainly entitled to your opinon...just as I am...but the fact is we can impeach him. The Constitution spells out the procedure to do so out clearly. We now have control of both the house and the senate. The bottom line in the impeachment process comes down to one vote above the opposition to impeach him. Not 5, not 20, or 525. What we need to do is to demand a through investigation and to have a spine.

As far as wanting the dems to succeed...they all ready have....what each individual democratic legislator does from this point on depends on they actions and how well they do their jobs. And when I voted for dems on Tuesday - I voted because I am a democrat and because I wanted to make a change, to give Democrats power to at least stand up to the repugs and junior. I also voted for legislators that I expect to uphold their jobs, starting w/ their oaths and to have a backbone.

a charade? is that what this is to you??? Our founding framers made sure to include the impeachment process in our Constitution to protect us from abusive presidents like bush and to hold him accountable. And as citizens, we also have a responsibility (see Bill of Rights) to demand that our legislators - of all parties follow their oaths. And their oath to their jobs PRECEDES their loyalty to their party.

[RestoreGore]

59. Here here!!

Thank you!

[Barack_America]

62. As I pointed out in my post, I am not against investigations...

So long as they are not of the headhunting variety and don't distract the Dems from actually accomplishing something. I think that you are forgetting that legislators also have the responsibility to...well...LEGISLATE. I believe that many people in this country have suffered under Republican leadership, and I have this crazy notion that the Dems could pass legislation that could actually help them. This should be their FIRST priority.

Many people have said that the Dems can multi-task, and I think that this is true regarding investigations. But impeachment? That's all consuming, if you remember from the last time we went through it.

A "charade"? Yes, that is exactly what I would call it, considering there is no way that we could get the 2/3 majority for conviction. Thus an impeachment would be all for show...a charade.

[RestoreGore]

58. Yes, I'm sure Jefferson Would Agree...

Not. It isn't surprising though that many Americans want to take the fast and easy way out even regarding this, and will once again defer to labelling people who are American first as "wanting revenge" to validate their own lack of courage regarding doing what the Constitution and moral decency call us to do as citizens. Democracy has been demeaned from being something people here were willing to fight for to just a key you push on a corporate electronic voting machine because Americans just can't be bothered with taking time to do things right anymore. I'm surprised we don't have drive up windows that let you vote so you don't have to even get out of your car. I also keep having to remind myself that I don't live in the America of Jefferson. I live in the junk food, reality TV, give it to me fast and don't bother me about anything important that takes more than five minutes world of the new America... Where reason and debate are nothing more than sound bites, and "winning" at any cost is everything. Standing up to preserve your Democracy and the rule of law is not a charade, and the fact that you don't understand that actually makes me very sad for this country.