For all the peple who preach that we shouldn't impeach Bush

[mtnsnake]

I hope you're not the same people here who have ever posted anything similar to the following statements in the past few years:

"Bush is the most corrupt president ever!"

"Bush needs to be held accountable if we ever take the House!"

"Bush is a murderous scumbag!"

"Bush needs to be impeached or Democrats will lose my future support!"

"Bush is a louse who lied his country into an unjust war, all in the cause for oil!"

"Bush is responsible for the needless deaths of thousands of brave Americans and hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis!"

"Bush and Blair planned the whole thing and need to be brought to justice!"

"Bush has raped the environment so big business could benefit!"

"Bush is as bad as Hitler!"

and so on and so forth.


I'll bet these things were said over a million times on this forum, and all of a sudden many of the same people are willing to let it all slide when we actually have the power to do something about it?

How soon you forget.

[Padme Amidala]

1. Pelosi is opposed to impeachment.

She isn't Speaker yet. There are lots of other choices who support impeachment.

[mtnsnake]

6. Yeah, and that is very disappointing. At the least, she should'nt have let

our intentions be known this soon. Nice way to piss off the base that was so loyal to her.

[Maven]

7. Pelosi has also assumed an ostensibly "nonpartisan" role

Once hearings have taken place, and testimony reveals the full extent of wrongdoing, the public will demand it. And Pelosi can allow another more "partial" member of the party take the lead.

[WhiteTara]

22. when we were at the state convention

(there was absolutely no news coverage at all) she was not shy about saying there would be impeachment. I believe she is very shrewd and so instead of saying there would be impeachment she said there should be oversight hearings. Now can you imagine John Conyers after his oversight hearing not to recomment impeachment, Leahy in judiciary with torture and suspension of habeas corpus hearing not recommending impeachment. I think it was a matter of symantics. Can't put the cart before the horse you know. She is in favor of hearings and the hearings will ask for impeachment.

I feel hopeful

[Stinky The Clown]

2. K&R

[Warpy]

3. Isolate, block and neuter

There is no way an impeachment will survive a trial by the Senate.

[mtnsnake]

8. It's not the end of the world if impeachment doesn't survive the Senate

It's the end of the world if we don't impeach the fucker in the House, though! At least for me it is ;)

[pnwmom]

24. I don't want him to be able to say: I was found not guilty.

I'd rather we dig up all the dirt, throw it all out into the light of day, and make him roll around in it for a couple of years before he finally slinks into his gopher hole in Crawford.

[MGD]

16. Attack their ideas, their alliances, and their plans, not their tools.

"Thus the highest form of generalship is to balk the enemy's plans; the next best is to prevent the junction of the enemy's forces; the next in order is to attack the enemy's army in the field; and the worst policy of all is to besiege walled cities."
Sun Tzu

http://etext.library.adelaide.edu.au/mirror/classics.mit.edu/Tzu/artwar.html

[Warpy]

19. I never read Sun Tzu

but I grew up watching corporate politics and know there are plenty of ways to defeat an enemy without getting him dismissed and giving him a soft landing via golden parachute.

Worse ways, IMO.

[drdtroit]

4. IMPEACHMENT => DEN HAGUE

:patriot:

[Maven]

5. They're the same people who are saying that we should kiss the Pubs on the forehead

and lay down now that we have some power.

[LearnedHand]

9. I'm not saying that at all...

...but I do think impeachment would turn out to be problematic for Democrats UNLESS -- as another poster pointed out -- the entire country wants impeachment. I'm just not convinced that's what the country wants. If it were a perfect world, we could initiate impeachment procedings and everything would be okay.

Maybe I've become cynical over the past 12 years, but the Pukes are MASTERS of breaking the law and then making criminals out of those would would hold them accountable for it. I'd rather the country see that we can do something besides same-old, same-old. I don't want the Dems to be "meet the new boss, same as the old boss."

Not if we had a very clear signal from the ENTIRE country that we should impeach the Bush cabal, well, that's a very different story.

[Cafe Americano]

10. Bad idea

Looking vindictive will alienate the majority. Bad idea.

[Morgana LaFey]

35. Wanting justice and accountrability

is the same thing as being vindictive to you? Not to me!

[Maven]

11. I'm the one who said that ;)

And I think you'll be surprised how much the national appetite for impeachment (and the political discourse) changes in the next 6 to 12 mos. It's changing ALREADY, after only a day.

BTW, I didn't mean to implicate you specifically--I'm referring to certain other "let's appease them" threads that shall remain linkless. ;)

[LearnedHand]

15. I really, REALLY hope you're right

I just don't want Dems to make a huge, tone-deaf misstep right off the starting line.

[Maven]

17. LOL. They won't

If there's one thing they won't do, it's leap without checking the temperature, the altitude, the wind velocity, and the astrological forecast. ;)

[mtnsnake]

12. Have you ever posted once that Bush should be held accountable?

If so, then try to remember why you said that.

[LearnedHand]

14. I actually have not posted that (IIRC)

... but it's only because I never had any hope at all that he would be held accountable (much cynicism, there). He SHOULD be held accountable. I just can't see a way, right now, for it to happen without him ending up unscathed and the Dems ending up junkyard pariahs.

[mtnsnake]

18. In your post, you just said it yourself! You said "He SHOULD be held accountable"

Always follow your heart.

[pnwmom]

25. I trust Pelosi to find the right way to hold him accountable.

[mtnsnake]

27. Old Chinese proberb: "Love all but trust few"

I think we're going to have to twist her arm to get this done. Who knows.

[Barack_America]

13. And I hope that the pro-impeachment people aren't saying...

-What we need to do is get out of Iraq

-We need to do something about (insert issue of choice here)

-I hope the Democrats win the Presidential election in 2008

and so on and so forth

[drb]

20. No! Impeach CHENEY and kick the chair out from under Bush!!!

You know and I both know that Bush is clueless fratboy moran. Without Cheney, he'd be helpless, twisitng in the wind. It's a beautiful thought, ladies and gents!

[incapsulated]

21. Ever called Saddam a dictator? Evil? Sick and Wrong?

Then I don't ever want to hear you say we shouldn't have invaded Iraq.

Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you SHOULD.

Just because Bush deserves to be impeached doesn't mean he WILL BE.

First of we CAN'T. Unless you imagine that a bunch of repukes in the Senate are going to wake up one fine morning and impeach Bush and therefore themselves and everything they have done the past 6 years. It takes 2/3's of the Senate to convict, not a simple majority.

Second, if you think that the dems were voted in yesterday not to get us out of Iraq, not to put the country back on course, not to get something DONE, unlike this do-nothing congress, and really wanted a replay of the distraction, bitter partisanship and ultimate failure that was the Clinton "impeachment"... what can I say, you just weren't paying attention to anything other than your own desire for revenge. Which I completely understand. But this isn't about me. It's about the future of this country. Which will need the democrats in office and the surest way to get them kicked out is to start a fucking circus of an impeachment trial that ends getting voted down while people lose their security, their healthcare, their homes and watch american soldiers die in Iraq.

Fortunately, the Democrats in office know better than to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory by making the entire country sorry they ever voted for them by doing any such thing.

We can investigate the hell out of them and hope that real criminal charges result from finally uncovering all the shit the repukes have been hiding in the basement all these years.

Then win in 2008.

[mtnsnake]

26. Get it thru your skull I don't give a shit if conviction doesn't follow

as long as we impeach. As long as we impeach, we've done our part in trying to bring justice. If by some miracle, conviction follows, well then that's just gravy.

I can't believe how many people think that just because someone wants to impeach, it automatically means they think that conviction is a real possibility. Good gawd.

[incapsulated]

28. Oh, that is even better

Drag the country through the total distraction and chaos that is a presidential impeachment process for NOTHING.

Man, they will just love us after that.

So will the repukes, who will then be able to say that the only reason we wanted the majority was to *attempt* to destroy Bush. Who will walk alway laughing. The repuke nominee will have his campaign all set.

[mtnsnake]

29. Oh stop letting the rest of the country push you around so much. nt

[incapsulated]

30. You're right..

They are only the people who vote. And who populate the united states.

[pnwmom]

31. I do care, because I think if he's found not guilty, he and his

supporters will both feel that he's been vindicated. And that's the last thing I want.

[mtnsnake]

32. Very fair point. nt

[pnwmom]

23. Let Madame Speaker drain the swamp.

When we see what's at the bottom, we can decide. . . if there's still time.

But I don't think we'll have accomplished much by impeaching him, UNLESS we have the 67 votes needed to convict. I don't want him to be able to say: I was accused of thus-and-such, but I was found not guilty.

[tkmorris]

33. Of course Bush should be held accountable......

But then I remember that I live in the REAL world.

Impeachment may become possible in the future, but right now it simply isn't an option. If we tried it first of all it would not succeed, and what really would be the point of that. Quixotian gestures do not appeal to me. More importantly, we would lose the support of the American people, and be viewed as Bush attack dogs rather than as legislators. It would actually decrease mightily our ability to pass effective legislation this country needs.

Let's be honest here. Your average Joe or Jane, whether from New York or Nebraska, may WANT to see Bush impeached, but what they NEED is an increase in the minimum wage, health coverage, and price relief at the pumps. They need reassurance that Social Security will actually BE there when they retire, and that prescription drugs will be affordable. Here in Florida and all along the gulf coast we need Home Insurance reform, badly. Some of us pay more for insurance alone than others pay in rent. We need to get our military home. We need to do a few real things to protect ourselves against terrorists, like secure the ports etc, instead of landing on aircraft carriers with socks stuffed in our collective flight suit crotches. We NEED a voters Bill of Rights, and we need that before 2008. We need to pass laws that protect Americans jobs, not ship them overseas. We need to ensure that we are around to demand decent judges are appointed to the major courts. We need to dump NCLB, and replace it with a plan that actually works. We need to get rid of large swaths of the Patriot Act, and other legislation that undermines our rights as defined in the Constitution. And so on.

Hear me well, we get NONE of that if we pursue impeachment right now. If the American people want us to do all of that, and impeach too, they will demand it of us. And that is the only time impeachment should be pursued. Reluctantly, at the loud behest of the people. To do it otherwise is to be a partisan hack, even if he DOES deserve it.

We need them to investigate many things. Quietly, while they accomplish all of the good things they are there to do. Then they present the American people with what they have found. If they want him impeached, they'll say so. They'll demand it. Until then, we have work to do.

[The Brethren]

34. let things slide?

I'm sure the spoiled, little, chicken-hawk brat would love that. I for one, do not intend to let this piece of crap President get away with anything that he has done from 2000 on. And I don't plan on letting our Democratic legislators get away from doing their jobs either if they don't stand up to him.

And I'm also betting right about now junior is sweating it that we have control of both House and the Senate. If he's not smart enough to figure what the numbers mean, I'm sure his daddy will explain it to him: "son, it's like this...you start with the fingers on your left hand and you count like this. Then when you run out of fingers, you count your toes. And then you start back up again with your fingers." :)

Which means we don't need his permission to hold investigations, or to demand that he be held accountable. Our legislators ...including the repugs, have a responsibility to us to hold him responsible. If they don't, they're not doing their jobs. And hopefully that will include impeaching the S.O.B. and letting him face legal charges after he's removed. But if we end up after all is said and done, with allowing the lying bastard to remain and to be censured...well then, he'll certainly find out what a blow....it is to his power --- just ask Clinton how that felt after the Repug majority got through with him after his impeachment process. And the chimp, unlike Clinton has it made in comparison...he'll only have to deal with working the opposition being in majority for the last 2 yrs of Presidency.

One very nice thing to look forward to aside from yesterdays election....is once this jerk officially leaves office, he's subject to the same civil courts like any one of us "common folk."

[happydreams]

36. Keep the fire (of Impeachment) burning. K&R