Impeachment may feel good, but it's stupid

[beaconess]

Suppose you're rushing your sick mother to the hospital and, on the way, a crazy driver cuts you off, cusses you out and nearly run you off the road. You almost end up in a ditch, but you manage to get control of the car while the crazy driver himself ends up in the ditch.

At that point, would you:

1) Stop your car on the side of the road, get out, run back over to the ditch, pull out the crazy driver (who's now nearly passed out) and beat the crap out of him while your sick mother gets sicker and sicker?

or

2) Get back on the road and drive your sick mother to the hospital?

Trying to impeach the president may feel good - just as beating the crap out of the crazy driver might be cathartic - but it's meaningless and counterproductive and will end up undercutting the very point of the whole trip.

[postulater]

1. Or you could get the license plate

drive your mother and call the cops to pickup the other driver.

There's lots of people in Congress. More than one thing can get done at a time.

[beaconess]

3. Impeachment can't be done by a few while everyone else works

It would consume the entire Congress and stop just about every other thing they need to do for the American people

[Morgana LaFey]

39. Nah. That's not how it worked when they impeached Clinton

It starts in the Judiciary, then it goes to the floor of the House and is voted on, then if the vote is YES, it goes to the Senate where there's a trial. None of that takes all that long, frankly.

Your analogy doesn't work very well, btw.

[greenman3610]

Exactly.

Given the investigations that are coming,
and the flood of nauseating revelations,
there may come a time when Repubs will
propose impeachment just to stop the bleeding.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

2. Lets say some crazy guy rapes and kills your sick mother.

Then somebody says he shouldn't get arrested, because it's meaningless and counterproductive.

[beaconess]

4. The American people haven't been raped and killed. They're alive and need our help

And we can't help them by jumping into the ditch while their issues languish because we're too busy getting revenge.

No one is saying that Bush shouldn't be held accountableBut impeachment is not the way to do it. It's a stupid and, frankly, childish approach to governance. It's the kind of thing Republicans do when they can't get their way. Democrats can get things done without resorting to these kind of tactics.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

7. 2,900 Americans have been killed.

And plenty raped.

655,000 Iraqis have been killed, plenty more raped.

So, honestly, I have to ask. Just what the fuck are you talking about?

[beaconess]

11. If you really want a response from me, I suggest you change your language and tone.

[Name removed]

12. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pretzel4gore]

25. revenge is a dish best served cold?

there are alot of things to do, and the repukes are ruthlessly active even while the dems try do them - imagine the hassles the gopig criminals are plotting to arrange! anyway, beaconess simply wants patience and skill applied to the jobs the dems undertake (i think)....you want to see the pigs hang (as do we All) but patience really is a virtue, and we can hang them later on! :)
DUers can disagree about proceedures, but 'bush=crook' still is the gospel around here, i believe

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

28. I'm all for patience.

I've said plenty of times today, everything should be thoroughly, properly investigated, and then impeach.

But there's a difference between patience and acceptance.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

44. Stupid, offensive gibberish

Advocating (correctly) a tactic to try and undo the harm Bush has done is not apologising for Bush.

By all means tell those of us who can count up to 2/3rds that we're mistaken in pointing out that starting impeachment procedings (N.B: not "impeaching Bush" - the Democrats have the power to do the former, but not the latter) would be politically suicidal and do no more to punish Bush than praying for him to be struck by lightning would - you could argue either that we're mistaken that such procedings would be doomed, or that they would benefit America even if they failed, though I think you'd be mistaken on both counts - but to suggest that we're motivated by a desire to "apologise for Bush" is ludicrous, contemptible, and offensive.

Shame on you.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Morgana LaFey]

40. childish? The Constitution is CHILDISH?

Impeachment is the Constitution's method for dealing with a chief executive who is guilty of "high crimes and misdemeanors," someone who shouldn't be in office any more.

If there's anyone in the history of the nation who fits that characterization (shouldn't be in office any more) it's George Bush.

[niallmac]

5. Priority one for me it the war, the killing, the troops, the innocents.

Then there are our poor, our own domestic disasters.
What's the best way. Will impeachment serve the country?
Revenge is not the antidote to what ails the world right now.
Can this sick little monkey be tried out of office?
To me, impeachment means this paralysis of our government
just when we are in a position to do something good for the country.

[Barack_America]

6. If Conyers says it's off the table, it's dead...

If anyone was going to push for it, it would have been him.

[ClassWarrior]

14. I'd like to see a link to that quote.

NGU.

[Barack_America]

22. Unfortunately, there's no link yet...

Actually it's Fox News that keeps quoting him.

I just e-mailed him in the hopes that his people might be able to confirm.

[pretzel4gore]

27. the pigmedia would love to see us try impeach their boytoy

after so many years of this, bush really don't matter anymore, imho....too much damage has been done for cosmetic fixes....the pigmedia are beyond awful beyond evil....

[Poll_Blind]

8. What a lame-ass metaphor. Like Democrats can't do both?

  Come on...That's a false choice fallacy if there ever was one. Why, by that reckoning it should have taken the Republicans eight terms to enact all the hideous legislation, start wars, etc. they have in the last six.

  Can't the Democratic party do more than one thing at a time in your opinion?

  I don't think it's beyond the pale to come home after work, turn on the news and have the top 5 news items regarding Democrats dismantling the absolute bullshit that is Bush's legacy.

  The war in Iraq was based on a lie. Not only was it based on a lie but after it began, several prominent companies (like Halliburton, etc.) were given NO BID contracts. During the war the government committed crimes against The Constitution by illegally circumventing torture and wiretap laws and continues to do so to this day, after having passed an unConstitutional post facto law "exonerating" themselves. These are just bullet points, mind you...this thing has roots that grow deep.

  You start yanking Iraq out of the ground and everything else naturally comes up with it.

  What isn't off limits according to your line of reasoning?

PB

[beaconess]

9. No - Dems CAN'T do both

Only people who don't understand how Congress really works could believe otherwise. Impeachment proceedings would completely consume Congress (not to mention the media). If impeachment proceedings were launched, that would be the end of any purposeful activity in Congress. Nothing meaningful would get done.

There's a reason that you don't hear any Members of Congress screaming for impeachment - even Conyers is tamping down speculation. They know it's a stupid idea and would completely undermine the work they need to do.

[ClassWarrior]

17. And if that's the logical conclusion of investigations...

...it will be the right thing to do. Do you see something less than "purposeful" in the service of justice?

NGU.

[Bobbie Jo]

10. IMO....

Stupid = Clinton impeachment.

Now THAT was stupid.

[wundermaus]

13. we are not out of the woods...

The rethuglians are still alive and kicking in OUR Whitehouse... their criminal behavior and treasonous acts against our Constitution and the rule of law are still in tact... If we do not pursue, investigate, prosecute, incarcerate and execute these traitors, they will come back at us with a vengeance and we may not be so lucky next time. There is still the stench of Fascism in the air...

[ClassWarrior]

15. IMPEACHMENT is a possible result of serving justice.

A large part of our mandate is to see that justice is served. If serving justice leads to IMPEACHMENT, why ever would you object to that?

NGU.

[pretzel4gore]

30. 3 words PIGMEDIA! PIGMEDIA! PIGMEDIA!

how soon everybody forgets the way the pigmedia lies and confuses...even WE seeem to suddenly think they are just lil ole country courthouse reporters, as sincere as lung cancer

[ClassWarrior]

32. So the solution is to let them keep you from doing the right thing?

If so, then you're complicit.

NGU.

[pretzel4gore]

35. congress restores funds to the pbs

after they put a strong liberal progressive in charge, that is, to clean out the bushevik riffraff who now infest the corporation... just one legitimate media source, reporting the 'news' ('news' means fresh 'new' info about what going on) w/out fear or favour, would affect all the rest.....a trustworthy pbs would necessitate a trustworthy nbc, abc, cbs foxnews etc....if anyone recalls it, the 1st thing margarat thatcher, ronald regan and brian mulroney (in britain, the USA, canada) did was strip funds from the public comm. free broadcasters, to make them depend on 'donors' mainly corporations...if the democrats do re-fund pbs, then eventually a non mediawhore media will be reporting the news, and secret deals etc will be thing of the past....
honeatly, i have no ideas beyond reinvigorating the public broadcaster via healthy, long term funding, but that probably will not happen....the well's been poisoned(?)

[ladywnch]

16. if people get the sense that we are more concerned about

retribution and revenge against junior and company instead of taking charge of the issues that we campaigned on and that really matter to the electorate we are going to lose ANY credibility and will likely be thrown out in 08. They're going to say, "see, political payback is more important than the country or the people. They're all the same"

I would LOVE to get junior and Darth impeached (I can practically taste it) but we need to focus on fixing/correcting what they have done to this country while we can. I agree some investigations can be done in parallel with getting these things done but it can't be the main focus. The best way to show we are different than the repubs is to BE different....actually work for the country/people and not for the flexing of power muscles. Retaliation is THEIR way of doing business, not ours.

junior's legacy is going to be an embarassment......THAT we be our retribution, our vindication.

[beaconess]

19. hear, hear!!!

[ClassWarrior]

20. When are people going to understand that it's NOT about issues...

...it's about VALUES and standing up for doing the right thing? If investigations lead to IMPEACHMENT, the majority of the American people, and likely the Congress, will right there with us.

NGU.

[beaconess]

23. Agree. But holding investigations is very different than starting impeachment

proceedings right out of the gate. If investigations lead the public to support impeachment, I'm all for it. But it's stupid to launch impeachment proceedings before we do anything else worthwhile.

[ClassWarrior]

26. Agreed. But we need to make sure it stays on the table as a legal recourse.

Which is why so many DUers are beating that drum - and have been for a long, long time. It's up to us.

NGU.

[beaconess]

37. It's called strategy

Democratic leadership saying publicly that it's not on the table does not mean that it's really off of the table.

Leadership does not - and should not - telegraph every possible move in advance just to keep their base happy - why show all their cards to the other side?

The last thing we need is the new Democratic leadership running off at the mouth revealing everything they might be thinking. But the fact that they're not saying it doesn't mean that it's not in their arsenal.

Give them some credit.

[ClassWarrior]

50. I know full well that they may be playing strategy...

...especially my political hero, Rep. John Conyers. As you say, at this point they can't tip their hand. Which is EVEN MORE reason we (and our friends in the Progressive media) need to be their surrogates and build grassroots support for IMPEACHMENT. They CAN'T do it. WE have to.

NGU.

[BrewAz]

18. Stupid? I do not think so....it is almost mandatory...

(Note: There seems to be so much traffic on Impeachment...I have posted this same thought earlier....)

Let us not forget, that in the United States we have a Constitution that is pretty explicit about how the government should be set up to administer the will of the voters. We have laws of the land that have been formulated and enacted by the congress.

Part of the process of being a Democracy is ensuring that the 225+ years of history is not trampled on by a "renegade" politiccian who happens to have power....that is why the Constitution of this land provides for Impeachment...with very specific rules and processes.

Why in the name of Democracy should the Democrats who are trying to put the rule of law back into the politics of Washington ignore the Constitution on this matter?

Ignoring this process because of potential fall out in the next political election ...Doesn't that smack of hypocrisy?

It is almost mandatory that hearings for impeachment be undertaken...

BrewAz

[A wise Man]

48. Thank you very much

I've also read so many post on the arguement of impeachment. Constitutionally impeachment is in the interest of justice. If the investigation leads to impeachment and treason I say let's get it done. If we don't I assure you the rethugs would not hesitate if the shoe were on the other foot. We can't coward out now, justice is calling.

[kestrel91316]

21. I'm sure Lord Pissypants would agree with you.

[beaconess]

24. I doubt it - he'd probably love nothing more than to have the Dem

Congress come after him only to have them fall flat on their faces.

[ShortnFiery]

51. Yes, as well as all those PsyOps folks, Govt and Civ moles?

If the investigations lead to The Probable, both Cheney and Lord PissyPants will be resigning. If they don't resign, THE FACTS will demand an impeachment that will be successful. ;)

[TankLV]

29. WRONG - it's the RIGHT thing to do to RESTORE DEMOCRACY!

Nice try...wrong analogy too...

A better one would be somebody breaks into your home, robs you, trashes the place, then rapes you. They then go on to the neighbors' houses and proceed to do the same to each one in turn.

YOU know who the culprit is, but - naw - don't turn him in - because you don't want to spend time on something JUSTICE and PREVENT MORE TRAGEDIES AND HORROR!

THAT is the correct analogy...

[pretzel4gore]

31. anyway, it's the media that's gone 'ted bundy'

until the law can be applied to the merdia, any effort the dems make would easily get swift boated.....
there should be open hearings on the corruption of the newsmedia, its role in creating the bush agenda, the $9 trillion dollar national debt etc

[sampsonblk]

33. Ever heard of doing what's right?

nt

[pat_k]

34. Your house is blown off it's foundation. You. . .

1. Call a contractor to get those renovations you've been planning for so long going.


2. Call a contractor to put your house BACK ON it's foundation, and then get those renovations you've been planning for so long going.

The Impeach Bush people are picking #2.

For your consideration:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2948216&mesg_id=2950729

[JamesJoyce]

36. AGREDD. And the far-left must embrace the moderate-sensible wing

.

[TankLV]

41. "Far left"? You lost?

WE won't go thru that crap again...

Try something else - it's getting OLD fast - WE are the majority now in case you haven't heard...

[loyalsister]

42. Thanks for the rational thought

Aside from those points, positive responses to cries for impeachment before real investigations have been conducted are like a D.A. saying that there is an agenda to prosecute before evidence has been gathered.
We believe we have "the facts," but we have to remember that our perspectives are biased. Investigations cast wider nets and produce more objective results.
The trouble here is that we are no better than the Republicans if we open investigations without compelling objective demand for them.

We should have higher standards than they have. And we should remember people.
To gain some perspective, we might classify ourselves as "true believers" in our own side here and consider the possibility that most people may be less convinced and less interested in worying about details than we are.
Particularly when they are trying to deal with not having health care.
Worrying about their family members over seas.
Thinking about how in the world they can possibly continue to pay for their kid's college.
Many also worry very much about the future of the environment.
Daily reality for most people excludes concern over the investigation worthy behavior of this administration.
They just want to get through life and they DO care that opportunities have been shut down.
We need to start there with no distractions and not devalue their daily life by putting all energy into a divisive impeachement that is bound to turn out so toxic that it would derail everything else.
This majority is not problem solving magic.
We need to focus on what matters to real people as a starting point and make our best efforts there.

[DFW]

43. I think the constitutional grounds are there.

Leading the country to war under false pretenses is pretty serious stuff.

That having been said, it's not like we can undo it, juts try to address it
and remedy it.

The two main arguments against impeachment are not moral or emotional, but practical.
First, if Bush is removed from office, it's President Cheney for two years. Think
about that one for a minute. Second: just like with Clinton, there is no way the
Senate will come up with the 67 votes for conviction and removal from office.

As that was the case in 1998, too, one can ask why the Republicans even bothered? Well,
for one thing, they were looking toward the presidential election in 2000. Clinton
was cruising in office, and without something drastic, Gore was a shoo-in. So, they
did something drastic. Bush Lite, on the other hand, has just been tried and convicted
in the eyes of America and the world, and making it official through impeachment would
not only be restating the obvious, it will distract crucial people like John Conyers
from addressing urgent matters like correcting the electoral system, putting war profiteers
(spell that H-A-L-L-I-B-U-R-T-O-N) on trial, that kind of thing.

[luckyleftyme2]

45. I THINK IT'S OUR DUTY

I THINK IT'S OUR DUTY AS CITIZENS TO IMPEACH THIS MAN; TO LET HIM OFF SCOT FREE FOR ALL THE DAMAGE HE'S DONE TO THIS COUNTRY. BUT THAT IS NOT THE ONLY REASON;THERE HAS BEEN SO MUCH WASTE AND SO MUCH CORRUPTION THAT WE NEED TO SEND A MESSAGE TO THE COUNTRY AND THE WORLD THAT WE THE PEOPLE WILL NOT STAND FOR A REGIME SUCH AS THIS; AND ABOVE ALL WE ARE A NATION OF LAW.
FEMA,HOMELAND SECURITY,AND ALL THE WASTE IS UNFORGIVEABLE!

[SouthernBelle82]

46. Hell no

Hell no you're wrong. Justice is what feels damn good. Knowing EVERYTHING wrong and horrible these people have done including murdering Iraqi people and our own soldiers is what feels good! So it's perfectly fine with you that George Bush continues to beat up on us and the Iraqi people including children?

[mtnsnake]

47. No. I'd have my sick mother beat the crap out of the other driver

What a silly analogy.

[Q]

49. This thread...

...is an insult to anyone believing in Democracy and our Constitution. We're not ruled by a King...but by someone that takes an oath to protect and defend the Constitution. If we ignore such high crimes...we'll lower the bar for future presidents who will believe they can break the law and get away with it.

[WA98296]

52. What's stupid is condoning crime and showing NO respect for the oath of office or the Constituion.

And, for that matter those that voted them in, and will surely vote them out when they see that Dems are no better.

[DFW]

53. I'd toss the whole lot of them behind bars if I could

But I can't. The radical right knew they would never get the votes
to remove Bill Clinton from office, but they went ahead anyway, and for
offenses that they knew didn't pass constitutional muster. They were
just vindictive little chickenshits, and we will come off the same way,
never mind that we would have legal justification and they never did.

I'm the first to agree that Bush and Cheney HAVE committed impeachable
offenses, but Congress's prime duty is to the country that elected them,
and I think that righting some of the legal wrongs as well as stopping
Bush's agenda in its tracks, and investigating corruption by his friends
and cronies is a much more pressing matter. We won't get to our own agenda
if we start out with impeachment, plus we won't retain our majority in 2008
much less expand upon it. Even the nutcases in Congress waited two years
after the Monica scandal broke to bring impeachment, and they were frothing at
the mouth. Yes, Bush has committed impeachable crimes, and yes he deserves
anything that can be thrown at him. But there is time, and his corporate buddies
are already trembling in their Armani boots.

History has already impeached and convicted both Bush and Cheney. We have time
to attend to it, and we had better get used to the idea that if we do impeach
that the votes to convict will never be there. But first, we have a country to
save, and I'd be royally pissed if the incoming Congress wasted valuable time
embarking on something that will remain a fixed target until January, 2009.

Where is Bush gonna go in the meantime, the Cayman Islands?

On second thought, don't answer that.