This window of opportunty isn't open very long

[cleveramerican]

Within twelve months of today congress will begin putting things off "until after the election".The biggest threat to progress in congress isn't defeat, its delay.Delay is the hammer each party uses to stick it to the other. Same as it ever was.


We have maybe 10 months to show the voting public their faith was well placed. Impeachment, endless sub-comitte hearings isn't what the public is demanding. We must be grown-ups about this and genuinely work with the president to DO SOMETHING REAL. Pragmatic solutions to seemingly intractable problems is where we should focus our best efforts. If we fall into the trap of re-visiting every slight of the last 6 years, our victory will be hollow and short lived.

The temptation to try and do too much is strong. We must be the grown-ups and put aside our hurt feelings and end the campaign, focus on governing aand we won't have to tell folks how swell we are in'08, they will already know.


One or two priorities is all that can pragmatically be achieved, We must choose those two with a high level of circumspect consideration.Revenge isn't one of them.

[ClassWarrior]

1. Justice isn't REAL to you?

If we fall into the trap of letting criminals get away with 6 years of breathtakingly enormous crimes, our victory will be hollow and short lived.

NGU.

[cleveramerican]

2. Iraq is the obvious highest priority

everything else will be seen as a sideshow, It will be seen as us avoiding the hard truths just like W has done.

The election is over, its time for governing. lets not sink to the levels we've been so repelled by these last 6 years

[ClassWarrior]

4. "Seen" by whom?? I'm so sick and tired of this...

..."some people say" attitude. Investigating crime and serving justice is the right thing to do and we need to do it. And Iraq is part of those crimes.

Read Lakoff's new handbook for Progressives, "Thinking Points" (http://www.RockridgeInstitute.org/ThinkingPoints). That book makes it plain that representatives who do the right thing without political calculation are respected by the majority of the American people.

NGU.

[cleveramerican]

8. The cynical

there is no larger voting block

[ClassWarrior]

30. They're cynical because NOBODY STANDS UP FOR ANYTHING ANYMORE.

:eyes:

Why do you think the criminals have been able to exploit morals? There's a moral vacuum.

NGU.

[cleveramerican]

38. Morals come from within

If you demand moral declarations from politicians, you are just begging to be lied to.

[cali]

3. Although this isn't addressed to me

I'd like to take a stab at it. Justice is more of a Platonic ideal than a reality. It's really rather rare. And I'm not sure we'd attain justice with impeachment anyway.

[OneBlueSky]

6. impeachment isn't about justice . . . that's what the courts are for . . .

impeachment only removes someone from office -- someone who will be leaving office anyhow by the time impeachment hearings and a Senate trial run their course . . .

we have a very short time to prove to the American people that Democrats can govern effectively . . . they want solutions to the real problems facing them . . . and that's what we need to focus on . . .

we should also investigate, gather evidence, and build the case against Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld et.al. for presentation to the appropriate court(s) at the appropriate time -- after they're out of office . . .

let's be smart about this and pursue real justice through the courts, not a symbolic removal from office that likely wouldn't succeed anyhow . . . and even if it did, would only result in shortening their terms by a few weeks or months . . .

[ashling]

12. Good points

The coalitions that put this victory over the top for us are not going to stay in tact while we play gottcha.

While we are busy impeaching the, Administration - with the structure they have alresdy put in place - will be busy torturing, spying on Americans, destroying the environment, ad nauseum. Those are the issues we need to get at. And in doing so, we will be building a case that will ultimately put these criminals behind bars.

46. exactly.

Now is the time for a dogged seige of policy to reverse the damage of 6 years rule. That is what is mandated here, and it must be carried out successfully or we're sunk in 2008.

[cleveramerican]

59. now your talkin!

[BlueJac]

5. I agree!

We should let people trying to destroy the fabric of America off the hook. Who cares who won the election? We have work to do, like sending flowers to Bush. We should send candy too. I knew in my heart nothing would be done about hundreds of Congressman who let the Constitution be stomped on, violating their own oaths of office. So let it be said, "Let's send a candy-gram".





What a disappointing situation.


People really voted for accountability.

[cleveramerican]

7. people voted with hope

not revenge.

I'm not saying your wrong its just we can't waste this very short year we have on stuff like that, We need to do something REAL. Real to millions of ordinary Americans the way no indictment or censure would ever be.

[riderinthestorm]

9. Trying to "spin" those of us who want impeachment as just revenge seekers is wrong

For us, it's not about "revenge", not at all. It's about seeing justice done. If you can't or won't acknowledge that there's a serious rationale for those of us who want to see investigations (with impeachment options still "on the table" if high crimes are discovered), then we won't be able to discuss this.

It's not about revenge. It's about justice. Period.

[cleveramerican]

11. give me your best-case scenario for "justice"

because I think it is about revenge.You should be honest enough with yourself to admit it.

[riderinthestorm]

14. Investigations into illegal wiretapping, 9-11, Katrina, the Iraq War and more

will demonstrate that this Admin has broken the law. Clearly broken the law. I believe Cheney and Bu$h should be held accountable. I believe that impeachment would be a much smoother and easier and probably even faster ride than Clinton's because these are real crimes, not just moralizing dressed up as some kind of crime.

If we let these folks go, like we did the Iran/Contra crowd, they will grow ever bolder. Cheney, Rumsfeld, Negroponte, BushI, Baker and all the rest are back with ever more brazen crimes since they were never held to account in the first place. Letting them go (again) will only mean even larger and more uncontrollabel problems later as they are training up a whole nother group of criminals when/if the BFEE et al get back into power.

You should be honest enough with yourself to realize that you would be enabling crimes of the highest sort against our country by letting this group go without seeing them punished.

[cleveramerican]

16. while these hearings went on....

Iraq would continue to deteriorate, Wages would remain stagnant, The health care crisis would worsen, and jobs would continue to be sent overseas. Then election season would arrive and end any real chance at progress based on THIS election.We would be justifiably blamed for playing politics while the country slid further downhill.


Its not about letting them off, Its about moving the republic forward with a healthy dose of humility.

[riderinthestorm]

17. Oh right, Dems can't walk and chew gum at the same time.

Uh huh. I get where you are coming from. :eyes:

Why are you so afraid of justice? Why do you feel the need to cover up Bu$h crimes - so Dems can appear "humble"? Now that's a good argument.... (not).

[cleveramerican]

20. don't want to " appear " humble

want to actually be humble. Humble enough to know there is only so much that can realistically be achieved in one years time. Humble enough to put aside hurt feeling of them pissing in our faces these last few years and LISTEN to the electorate. Represent those who elected us and move forward not back.

[riderinthestorm]

23. I believe the electorate spoke and it's to investigate and bring change

That's how I read it. More than 50% of the electorate want this Admin impeached if it is discovered that Bu$h lied about Iraq.

We know he lied so why isn't it imperative to bring those facts to light? We also know he did a shitload more than just lying with purposeful manipulation of intelligence to drag the US into Iraq (Niger forgery anyone? Tell me you still believe that this Admin wasn't behind this and I've got a bridge in San Fran you may want to buy). We also know he has broken the law with the wiretapping, he has broken laws with torture and more.

Impeachment would also go a long way towards restoring American integrity globally, it would serve notice that the American system of democracy isn't thoroughly demolished, perhaps even more importantly it would demonstrate that our Constitution isn't just toilet paper.

I pity you and your fear. This is why Dems will lose in 2008 because we are unable to see the big picture of restoring our democracy and will instead spend our "political capital" squabbling over the Boltons, and trying to drag the DINO's into agreements over the minimum wage etc.

For fucks sake, Bu$h just nominated Gates to take over as SecDef. If you can't understand that BFEE and the rest of the criminal cohorts are shedding every last veneer of "working with Dems", then you need to brush up on your Iran/Contra history.

[brentspeak]

24. "More than 70% of the electorate want this Admin impeached "

Where was this?

[riderinthestorm]

26. Tahiti Nut's excellent thread in GD

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2666087&mesg_id=2666087

And forgive me, his stats are 50%, my bad.

[brentspeak]

27. The OP on that thread casually left other poll information out

I responded to his OP with this post:
..........................................................................................
Those are only TWO of the polls quoted on that site. Here's info on another poll conducted AFTER the two mentioned above:

On 12/14/05, members of AfterDowningStreet.org hired Rasmussen Reports to ask a harder-edged question: "Should President Bush be impeached and removed from Office?" 32% said yes, 58% said no. Rasmussen also asked: "Should Vice President Cheney be Impeached and Removed from Office?" 35% said yes, 55% said no. A gap between support for impeachment hearings and removal is understandable - there was a 10% gap in similar polls for President Clinton in 1998. Rasmussen's results probably understate support for impeachment and removal, because Rasmussen's polls consistently show Bush's approval ratings 5-10% higher than all other polls.
http://www.impeachpac.org/?q=node/76

That's from this page on a democrats.com entitled, "It's Time to Demand More Polls on Impeaching Bush": http://www.democrats.com/bush-impeachment-polls

In other words, that site -- the one the OP is quoting to all of you right here -- wants to keep conducting polls over-and-over until it gets more of the results it wants -- polls which claim the public wants to see impeachment hearings. That approach is nothing but pure intellectual dishonesty, and would be laughed at with scorn by any academic or responsible journalist.

[riderinthestorm]

29. Thanks for the links. "Removal from office" is a heavy punishment

and I'm sorry more of the populace doesn't agree with me but that doesn't change the fact that impeachment is still something the population supports. There IS a gap between those who would favor "impeachment proceedings" and then having to face the reality of that outcome. I liken it to a comparison of those who support punishing a murderer but differ on whether that criminal should be put to death or given a life sentence.

Punishment is still called for. Justice is and should be the goal.

I believe investigations (with impeachment on the table) are the right thing to do.

[cleveramerican]

25. W bringing Gates on.....

reminded me more of LBJ bringing Clark Clifford on board.


Save your pity, I (we) have better ways to get on with it than reliving the past.

[riderinthestorm]

28. Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat their mistakes

I'm truly sorry you cannot understand the critical need to investigate with impeachment being "on the table".

Perhaps though, you can reconsider your opinion that those of us who ARE desirous of justice aren't just revenge seekers. These are vital matters relating to the health of our democracy.

[cleveramerican]

57. I do

but you must admit that for SOME ,less principled than you of course, revenge is one big part of any impeachment desire.


I' didn't say no or never to it.JUST NOT FIRST, we have bigger fish to fry

[ClassWarrior]

32. Yes, the nation just screamed to a standstill during Watergate, Iran/Contra...

...and the Attempted RW Coup on the Clinton Administration.

:eyes:

That's RW spin, and you're buying it.

NGU.

[cleveramerican]

58. any honest viewer....

can see that Bill could have achieved so much more if he hadn't gotten bogged down with impeachment, and can also see how it turned out for the republicans. Thats not RW spin thats the hard cold fact. And he had nobody to blame but himself.He made the bed that congress made him lay in.

[Greyhound]

35. All of which is irrelevant, to ignore the criminality this government

has engaged in is to grant tacit approval and render the Constitution obsolete.

Is that what you intend?

[FogerRox]

52. Truly clever americans multi task

Truly clever americans in congress multi task.

[cleveramerican]

60. congress seldom achieves clever

individual members? sure, but the body as a whole, I can't recall the last time they acted cleverly.

[FogerRox]

67. Watergate?

[Irreverend IX]

42. The voters don't give a RAT'S ASS about "justice."

If Democrats are going to keep power, they'll have to appeal to Joe Sixpack with a ten-second attention span. He can't be bothered to remember Plame and all the other Constitutional violations of the Bush Administration. In 2008 he's going to ask himself "Am I better off now than I was in 06?" If the answer is yes, there's a good chance he'll vote Democratic. If not, why should he care who's in power? Impeachment will only improve the public perception of the Democratic party is if the upcoming investigations dig up some serious dirt about Bush that becomes public knowledge. If we can get the general public to truly hate him, then impeachment might work in our favor as with Nixon instead of blowing up in our faces like it did to the Repubs with Clinton. Besides, impeachment just removes him from office whereas he can actually be brought up on criminal charges and imprisoned after he leaves.

[FogerRox]

51. Justice sir, by the rule of law.

[ClassWarrior]

31. Investigations that could lead to impeachment ARE hope!

They're the hope that we'll never again have a criminal government like the one we've had the past six years.

NGU.

[StraightDope]

10. Grown-ups...

What a stupid fucking pseudo-word. "Adults" is preferable. Nothing personal, I just hate that idiotic expression.

[4dsc]

13. So we cannot do two things at the same time??

I believe we can get "our" agenda completed as well as investigate this administration for its past at the same time.. Some people would have you believe we cannot do both as one would distract from the other.. So lets get our agenda on the table quickly for the president to veto and then investigate!!

[riderinthestorm]

19. Agreed! I mean, this Admin has tortured in our name!

and we should just sit back and "play nice", stay "humble".

Torture!

[brentspeak]

22. Actually, no. We can't.

[FrenchieCat]

15. Well with 7 senators running for President, most likely as of January,

I hope we don't get sidetracked!

It's gonna be interesting to see what our politicians consider to be the most important task ahead; running our government to repair damage, or running for President and doing damage to each and everyone of the Dem opposition.

I'm gonna be watching this. Cause if we blow it, I ain't gonna be playin' anymore. :mad:

[knight_of_the_star]

18. Ethics invesigation and reform

That would go a long way. So would health care benefits.

[brentspeak]

21. Amen

[Greyhound]

33. I am so goddamn sick of people excusing dereliction of duty as being

"grown up". WTF is fucking hard to understand about mass murder, fraud, theft, intimidation, and subversion of several federal processes? These are high crimes, you know those things that the impeachment provisions were included in the Constitution to redress.

I don't know how you were raised, but I was taught that "grown ups" do the right thing in spite of the fact that it is hard, or that there might be a consequences that must be borne.

[Beam Me Up]

34. Sorry, I don't cooperate with fascists.

And how do you know what "the American people" want? I am an "American" person and I want investigations and I want justice and that no doubt means impeachment and criminal charges. What is wrong with that? How are we going to get any of the real work that needs to be done, done, if we don't have THAT?

GMAB!

[Zodiak]

36. In addition to all of the crimes mentioned in this thread

Let us not forget that we have an entire city wiped out that suffered hundreds of deaths because of Bush inability to govern. And nothing has really been done to restore it. Hell a whole region has been wiped out and abandoned.

Bush will veto everything we pass. Bank on it. His desire to ram through an antidemocratic legislative agenda through a lame-duck Congress indicates that he will do everything in his power to stop any meaningful reform we enact.

That is the position we are in. If we try to play nice, he will laugh in our faces and continue to erode the Constitution and kill many thousands more. That is his personality...we all know it.

My position is simply this: we start investigations now. We know what rocks to look under. As his crimes become more and more obvious, we can put him into a negotiating position to sign our legislation into law or face immediate impeachment hearings (which also puts his Repuke allies under the spotlight before 2008). Regardless of his status in office, we can pull his teeth, but that means that we do NOT play nice. That means that we investigate him hard, pull his crimes into the light, and then use his crimes against him to force him to sign the damned legislation.

When he leaves office, we arrest him and take justice out of the political process. Under those circumstances, it only takes a jury to convict him.

Justice will be served.

But we need leverage over him to even have a chance to pass anything, and investigations will do that.

Anything less is compromising our principles in the name of political expediency, which is something that neither I nor most people I know respect. There is blood on the floor...and more blood on the way if we do not stop him. This is NOT an academic debate without consequences. Real people will die if we do not act to stop him now. I refuse to fall in line and play nice when so many people's lives depend on it.

[cleveramerican]

37. I disagree....

that recriminations and investigations are the highest priority of the electorate.
The people of this country are crying out for some progress toward making the situation in Iraq better. If we miss this opportunity, its not going to come around again for a long time.


Fix the mess first, assign blame after we put out the fire

[Zodiak]

39. Just curious

My problem is this: how do we fix Iraq with Bush in charge?

He is not leaving Iraq. If anything, he might send in more troops, but the war is long lost. More will die. What's more, many of the Democrats are still for winning in Iraq, so a bipartisan coalition (of pukes, conservative Democrats, and DLCers) may be put together to keep the war afloat. The war must be discredited through evidentiary hearings (which is starting up, thank God) for Congress to get onboard with a pull-out.

How do we get Bush to pull back on Iraq if we do not put some kind of real pressure on him? Only immediate investigations will provide that leverage from my point of view. If there is another way, I am intrested in hearing it.

He will not care about his re-election (term limits) and his party's fate means nothing to him. He is dangerous in that position because he can damn all political consequences. He has already demonstrated that this week.

47. so, what will it take...

to make happen what we the people have asked for? Is it feasable that our congress can find enough impeachable evidence to effectively tie GW's hand to the pen and force the legislation we so desperately need passed into law?

[puebloknot]

40. Just a question for you.

With all the respect I can manage to muster, let me ask you: As a grownup who would like to work with the president to do something real, are you packing your bags (including the body armour that you purchased yourself, but which they probably won't let you take on the plane because it would make GW look bad) to get to Iraq at the first possible moment? Now that's something REAL! Recruitment is down, and, as you've noted, time is of the essence, and I'm sure the president would be very grateful because he's already said he plans to continue with *his* war, no matter what.

I wonder if thousands of Iraqis whose families have been murdered would be willing to put aside their hurt feelings and just forget about it all? And do you think Cindy Sheehan and many, many other American parents of sons and daughters murdered in Iraq would consider impeachment of an unelected president "revisiting every slight of the last six years?"

Just a few of those slights come to mind: Domestic spying; outing a CIA agent; destroying the Constitution and ending habeas corpus; letting New Orleans go to hell after Katrina; denying fundamental health care to every person alive in the country (and *just being alive* is reason enough to merit the care of a doctor in a time of illness).

For some reason, I just don't feel grown up enough at this moment to put aside my hurt feelings and agree to have my representatives in Congress work with a president who is a danger to not only this country, but to all mankind. There's a quirky expression that I think is appropriate here: "Those who lie down with dogs rise up with fleas." Sorry, I can't be any nicer than that.

Nelson Mandela set up Truth and Reconciliation committees after he was elected (and who has *ever* had more reason than that man to hold a grudge?), but the deal was that before reconciliation/forgiveness could be attained, the perpetrator had to demonstrate remorse and tell the truth about his/her crimes. The hubris of George Bush and his minions (though I think that George is actually the minion) is legendary. I suspect that gang will still be "sieg heiling" (metaphorically, of course) at funerals, just as some of the aging Nazis still are, far into the future. They believe they carry a holy mandate, and this damned election on Tuesday is going to have all the importance to them of flicking a fly off the lapel of their overcoats. That's if we don't call them on their arrogance! And that's if we who elected this new Congress don't reign in their stated intention, within hours of electoral victory, of playing nice with the bullies they defeated. "Civility," I think Nancy Pelosi is calling it.

George Bush was bringing a new tone to Washington, he told us back in 2000. Seems Nancy is calling old George, and upping him a few!

You know, some pretty "swell" people got into office after the Iran/Contra affair because that Congress was "grown up" enough to brush that whole affair under the rug and just move on! (For the good of the country, of course! We the People just weren't grown up enough to take the stress of hearing that "The Gipper" wasn't such a jelly bean, after all!) We should have impeached back then. We sure as H ought to impeach now, in double digits -- not from a place of revenge but because failure to hold this regime to account is dishonoring the sacrifice of every person who has died in this illegal war in Iraq. This isn't a tea party. While you were writing your note, while I'm responding, it's entirely possible that another good American son or daughter has died in Iraq. It takes a grownup to do that!

My sincere opinion, as...

Judy Barrett, Citizen
United States of America

[cleveramerican]

41. yours is a recipe for a short stay in power

If we try and accomplish something less partisan, more pragmatic,first. We as a nation(and a party) would be far better off.

[puebloknot]

44. Partisan Revenge? Not!

And yours is a Faustian deal with fanatical people who believe there is a devil, and they're gonna smoke him out! We need to conduct an intervention, not engage in feel-good enabling.

You seem unable to see impeachment as anything but a partisan scheme to exact revenge. That's how the Republicans misused the impeachment process against Bill Clinton. Impeaching for crimes against humanity is a completely different issue, sanctioned by our Constitution. Legal experts have a whole laundry list of impeachable crimes committed by Bush, et al. It isn't *my recipe* that is at issue here. It is the law of the land that I speak of.

I'm sorry, but *pragmatism* leaves a terrible taste in my mouth when it relies on putting aside *every* principle of decency this country ever claimed to stand for. The country has not always lived up to its stated intentions, but what we have now is the beginning strains of fascism, waiting to flower into full bloom. They aren't knocking on doors yet -- at least not on the doors of nice white folks like me -- but they've got the matrix in place to be able to do it.

Neville Chamberlain had some of the same good ideas that you seem to have, and a reading of the history of World War II will show how successful appeasement was back then. We don't compromise with someone trying to break into our house, and we don't compromise when someone attempts to take over our country, either. When a bulldog has hold of our pants leg, we may have some compassion and understanding about how the bulldog got to be so vicious, but we detach him from the pants leg. That is, if we are not completely deluded.

If we win on the basis that you suggest, we have not won at all. We are then in power only in our own delusional nightmares. We have simply allowed criminal, fanatical people to endanger our future.

Compromise is not what decent politics should be about; not when the compromise is a rejection of the rule of law. Once we have sold out, as I feel you are suggesting, we would hardly be "better off."

[understandinglife]

45. "Neville Chamberlain had some of the same good ideas that you seem to have, and a reading of the ...

... history of World War II will show how successful appeasement was back then. We don't compromise with someone trying to break into our house, and we don't compromise when someone attempts to take over our country, ...

Correct.

An elegant set of comments (your original one in this thread and your retort) that I urge you to convert into an OP.

Thank you.

B Robert Franza MD
American Citizen


Never, Ever Forget: George W. Bush willfully violated National Security to cover-up his willful launch of a war of aggression and illegal occupation of Iraq .... and, now he willfully provided nuke-making instructions to terrorists -- if you doubt it, just check 'the google' ....

[cleveramerican]

69. I think Wiston Churchill is more in order

"victory and defeat in politics, those two imposters should be greeted the same"

[FogerRox]

48. If investigations, hearings shown on TV, as was Watergate

bring about a public bi-partisain bent to impeach and remove, what better demonstration of the process could you ask for. This is what happened in Watergate. THe Watergate breakin was proir to the '72 elections, some of us yelled it was not a simple breakin, it wasn't until Hearings were televised afternoon after afternoon, on every channel, that the public saw we were right. It wasn't untill that critical mass was achieved that the public saw the need to remove nixon from office. Nixon saw it too, and ended up resigning.

It wasn't about partisain revenge, not with Republican Senator Lowell Weicker banging on his desk saying republicans don't steal don't cheat, don't break into offices.

The idea is, good republicans and conservatives can be convinced of the inherant good of removing the Bush Crime family from office. But the case must be made to their satisfaction. Then and only then they will be onboard. And then it will not be patisain revenge, will it?

Expose the lies and crimes, make your case to the public, they will respect you for that.

[puebloknot]

61. A bit late...

I just saw this, and I agree. Supporting impeachment by its nature involves investigations. Certainly, they should be televised, everything out in the open. And yes, the best possible scenario is strong Republican voices demanding Bush's removal.

Until November 7, it appeared that Bush enjoyed Republican support in spite of many outrages. The election gives hope that there will be a populist movement to regain our moral compass.

Thanks for weighing in.

Judy Barrett

[H2O Man]

63. When it is said

that "politics is the art of compromise," it does not follow that democrats should compromise their values. I'm glad that you pointed out Nelson Mandela earlier in this thread, as he is a wonderful exammple of a person who recognizes that in order to do the right thing politically, one needs to hold firmly to their value system.

Mandela views his country, and indeed the world, as the human family. We can get along with our republican family, friends, and neighbors best when we all agree that people must be responsible for their actions. And that means that those who break the law be held responsible -- including the president and/or vice president.

[puebloknot]

73. My heart skips a beat...

...every time I hear Mandela speak. I hope he lives to be 200 years old, to make up for his many years in prison! :)

Mandela has said that America is the greatest threat to world peace. I hope he is breathing a little easier at this point, but he's a wise man and likely knows that we've just made a beginning here, and will have to work relentlessly to keep the wolf from entering the door again -- once we kick said wolf out, that is.

Mandela is a "better man" than I in that he was able to stand beside his persecutors without rancor (at least he hid it well if he felt it), and move forward.

A place for everyone at the table does not allow for disorted religious philosophies which lead to murder and chaos in the guise of statesmanship, and allow people to avoid personal responsibility. I just saw "Jesus Camp" with my daughter, who is early 30s, and we were discussing the whole issue of what makes for a sane society. Something in me says that people who homeschool ignorance and hatred into their children are hurting the country, and there should be some means for cutting into that and seeing that *every* child gets a basic education which includes real sciene, math, English (English, for god's sake)! Leading people out of darkness is a monumental challenge, and I'd like to import Mandela to America for a time, to help get us organized. Mr. Mandela might prefer to stay at home. I know that not everyone is totally pleased with Mandela's performance as head of state, but I'll be telling my grandchildren about him (if I should ever have any grandchildren), even unto the seventh generation!

Judy Barrett, Citizen
United States of America

[H2O Man]

76. I've never had the chance

to hear him speak, except on tv. I read his book "Long Walk to Freedom" a few years ago, and was very impressed by his message. My friend Rubin Carter has been involved in a few projects with Mandela over the years, and has great respect for him.

[puebloknot]

78. Well, I've only heard him speak on television, too

However, his charisma comes across on the tube! Imagine being in his presence. I'd love to kidnap him for a weekend and talk!

I read "Long Walk" not long ago, too. I also read Winnie's "Part of my Heart Went with Him," some years ago, and I've always been puzzled and sad about how that all went wrong between them. Whatever faults she might have, the woman lived through so much that I'll always respect her and have compassion for her. It's good that Mandela seems happy with a new wife.

There's something about the whole South African saga that makes me wistful. It reminds me of the seeking for wholeness that characterized the founding of this country. That we may have failed in the doing does not diminish the spirit of renewal that inspired our beginnings. We have to remember that as we move forward now, trying to re-mold the country into a place that really lives up to its promise.

ANd yes, we have to emulate Mandela's view that we are a human family. In everything we do to heal this country, we need to remember that we are one strand in a magnificent tapestry, and if we pull at other threads, or remove them, we are leaving a hole in the fabric of creation.

I am a white woman, and I want to share with you a short vignette from my very early childhood, and how I became acutely aware of the white/black dichotomy: My father was stationed in Tacoma, at Ft. Lewis, before we were transferred to Taejon Korea. We were living in a series of apartments near Ft. Lewis populated by military families. Next door to us was a black family. There are pictures of me at age four-and-a-half as the token little white girl in a whole group of black kids. I remember my mother jokingly saying that my grandparents would wonder if (I'm just quoting here) I was "turning into a little "pickaninny."

I was quite happy with it all; I had fun kids to play with. Until...one day, my father made a slingshot out of a branched limb from a tree, with a band of rubber around it. He didn't call it a "slingshot," however. He told me it was a...Nxxx Shooter. Laughter, nothing more. Lots of fun! I didn't get the racial inference because I was only four. My father would tell you, if he were alive today, that he didn't mean anything by it. Just having fun, you know.

So, later that afternoon, when the black gentleman next door came home from work (he had always been entirely kind and friendly to me), I ran up to him seeking our usual camaraderie, and held up that piece of equipment and said, "I'm going to shoot you with my Nxxx shooter."

My friendly neighbor *reacted.* It was 60 years ago, but I can feel the horror still as his face turned to anger and he told me to get my little white derriere out of his yard! Maybe my fascination with Nelson Mandela is a primal wish to recapture that initial warm association with the first black man in my life, which ended so very badly!

We've got a ways to go in living up to Mandela's vision. I've been grateful that the U.S. Army took me out of West Texas at an early age and gave me a tour of the world. If that had not happened, I don't know what my attitudes toward black people, people with differences, might be. Travel is broadening, as they say!

If you'd like to know a bit about the rest of the story, at four to five years old, in Taejon, Korea, I learned at my father's knee about "Gooks," and their strange ways! Life! What a ride!

Thanks for listening. This is a bit off topic, I suppose, and I am rather verbose at times, but that memory just popped up as I was writing this to you.


Judy

[autorank]

50. Oh that "grownup" line...one of the vile complicities of the corporate media.

Cheney was an "adult."

Rumsfeld was an "adult."

Can't quite remember who the other adults were supposed to be.
Abramoff maybe? Oh right, Powell.

These adults ignored information and skirted actions that may well have stopped 911.

These adults let American citizens starve for days in new Orleans.

These adults can't stand the truth and won't ever face it.

Great letter pueblo knot.

[cleveramerican]

55. Things I learned when I was 8

humble in victory, gracious in defeat.
keep your eyes on the prize
Smart IS cool

I use these little truths, taught to me when I was young, every day and they have always served me well.Politics is no exception.


If we waste this year assigning blame for the last few,instead of moving the nation forward, we will not win in '08 and deservedly so.

[FogerRox]

54. I see puebloknot gets it. Welcome to DU kind miss.

Please feel free to comment on my post # 48, if you would.

[puebloknot]

62. Kind Miss????

It's been many a year since I thought of myself as a "Miss." :) I've been Ms. Barrett for at least a quarter of a century!

But kind? I'll take that one and hope it's true!

[FogerRox]

68. My apologies kind Ms.

[puebloknot]

70. No apology needed.

For a moment there, you took me back in time! :)

[Time for change]

64. Well said Puebloknot

And I would add that failure to hold this regime accountable for its many crimes would not only dishonor those who have died in Iraq but also would dishonor our Constitution and indeed the rule of law in our country.

[puebloknot]

72. Yes...

...and the world is watching to see if Tuesday's election was just a statistical anomaly (as in they counted the votes this one time), or whether we are going to begin to operate on a more ethical and realistical level. It affects *everyone*, but as a Canadian friend said, "We're just along for the ride. We're pretty helpless. What America does affects us, but we don't get to vote down there."

Those of us who are, ahem, less young than some of the others of us on this forum can remember the talk about the Germans failing to rise up and throw off Hitler. Easier said than done, but that nation has borne the stain of Hitler's reign for a very long time. Now, they're filing charges against our very own (late, not great) Rumsfeld. What a delicious irony!

Judy Barrett, Citizen
United States of America

[Time for change]

75. I find it very interesting that you make the comparison with the Nazis

because I have thought a lot about that for a long time. I realize that most people, perhaps even most liberals, don't like to hear that kind of talk, but I believe that it is highly relevant, and I have posted about that on DU a number of times because I believe that Americans should be highly cognizant of it:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2269258

[puebloknot]

77. I'm very young... :)

...but I'm old enough to be more personally aware of what happened in Nazi Germany because my father fought in that war, and then we lived in Germany for three years, ten years after the war. The aftermath of that conflict was still very sadly evident when I went there at age 12. There were still bombed out buildings, and people attending concerts in threadbare coats.

That's a fascinating post of yours, BTW. I didn't see it back then, but it's very important to get this message out.

The parallels between what has been happening here, and what took place in Europe in the '30s is striking. The liberals may not like that kind of talk, but I invite them to read "Defying Hitler (Hefner)," to get a good view of what happened back then. I've just finished reading "Kristallnacht," by Martin Gilbert, and it's a trip back in time to that horrible occurrence. Liberals have an obligation to become very aware of that history before "not liking to hear that kind of talk." No one *likes* it. Brushing it under the rug, however, is unconscionable.

I'm aware that younger generations tend to feel that stories like this of the past are just the senile ramblings of someone who is stuck in the past. I'm not senile and I'm not stuck. Our youth-oriented culture needs to hear from people who lived through a prior era. Native cultures know the value of story-telling -- telling *true* stories as well as mythological ones which carry a lesson.

It is a fact, a sad one in some ways, that most of us require personal experience to really get it about certain historical events. To a lot of Americans (and not just really young ones), WWII and the Holocaust are kind of relegated to a quixotic experience on the Holodeck, and not relevant today.

I have Native American bloodlines on both sides of my family. I was 50 before I started exploring all that, and learning about the American Holocaust. The past *is* prologue. We need to tell our tales.

Judy Barrett, Citizen
United States of America

[BrokenBeyondRepair]

43. decent ppl don't "work with" criminals..

democrats are the new republicans

[FogerRox]

53. BrokenBeyondRepair, seems to have some respect for the rule of law.

And I would guess, would not throw the Constitution under the bus. Good for you.

[FogerRox]

49. I could not dissagree more

The trick is to sell impeachment and removal from office to the masses, the republicans and conservatives. The rule of law still holds with many of them. It worked with Watergate and it will now. There were no real prosecutions for Iran Contra, and now the same criminals are in the WH again.

FDR did not get the chance to prosecute Allan Dulles and Prescott Bush for their crimes during WW2. DO you think we would have had the Bay of Pigs, Watergate or Iran Contra if these characters had been nipped in the bud in 1947. I think not.

You sir, seem to characterize the Rule of Law as mere swill, to be ignored at your convenience, for reasons of political expediency. I sir, will not throw the Constituion under the bus.

Please see my post #48 upthread.

[cleveramerican]

56. Thankfully congressional leaders.....

see it closer to my way.


look around and see where we agree, and start there. Build consensus through compromise( the way congress is supposed to work).


I know your all sincere in your desire to see sombody punished, I want that too, but I don't think its the smart,strategic move at this moment in time.

[FogerRox]

66. So if, by late 2007, a majority of the public supports impeachment

& Removal, what might your take on it at that point, when there maybe a public consensus. I understand I am asking you to engage in conjecture, but based on the swing to impeachment in the public mood after televised Watergate hearings... I think its a valid question.

And yes, I absoltely think Impeachment for impeachments sake is stupid & to be avoided.

[cleveramerican]

71. If glimmer of hope has appeared.......

in Iraq, I'd be with ya then, depending on the charges of course.

[Heewack]

65. Bingo!!!!

Thank goodness the party leaders have noticed this as well. These two years and what we do with them will determine our chances to take back the WH in '08. The American people have put their hope in us that we can handle the tough issues facing the country with real solutions. Realism and pragmatism will be our best friends. Nancy Pelosi is really going to shine. She has articulated this position very well in the past few days.

[TheFarseer]

74. you're really slashing and burning today!

Although I do agree we need to get to work and not be petty. I think there should be committees set up to look into how we got into Iraq and if we were lied to. That means independent committees. We can't have Hillary Clinton or whoever being the face of this or we're going to have a political food-fight and that doesn't do anything productive for the country. I mostly agree that we need to work on what we campaigned on.