Did Carville actually SAY he wanted to see Howard Dean replaced?

[mtnsnake]

Or did he just say, "Suppose Harold Ford became chairman of the DNC? How much more money do you think we could raise? Just think of the difference it could make in one day. Now probably Harold Ford wants to stay in Tennessee. I just appointed myself his campaign manager."?

I'm not condoning what he said, but I've read in more than one thread that Carville called for Dean's replacement, so I'd like clarification on this if anyone can help out.

Did he actually call for Dean's replacement, or was he implying it with a hypothetical question? It's not good either way, but there is a difference if he actually called for Dean's head or not. I'd like to see the link so I could read what he said in the full context of how he meant it. Thanks.

[colorado thinker]

1. Maybe he's thinking of a replacement when

Dean runs for PRESIDENT!!!!!!!!!

[xultar]

2. Du's misinterpretation and exaggeration disease.

I've actually done it myself.

They'll simmer down in a bit.

[madfloridian]

6. That is insulting. I posted both quotes

This is a toxic place here since we won.

[xultar]

10. I wasn't talking about you. Where did you come from. Why take it personal?

[madfloridian]

35. I am the one who posted his statements from NYT and TNR

I am defending myself against being treated like a "typical DUer" That is the new meme here this week....typical DU stuff, typical DUer.

We all know where it is coming from.

[xultar]

47. I didn't even see your post.

[madfloridian]

3. I posted the TNR quote twice...you can find it on a search.

It is not a bunch of crap people made up. It is not DU stuff as you say.

He called the NYT without being solicited, and said the RNC did better than the DNC, and then he was insulting to Dean. UNSOLICITED. They did not ask him. I posted that today, search for it.

Then he talked to TNR and said that. It does not matter how he held his mouth.

[mtnsnake]

8. So did he or did he not call for Dean to be replaced?

And if so, would you mind showing me the exact quote? thank you

[madfloridian]

9. I posted it twice, find it.

Yeh, he is just playing mind games.

Those power shifts are hell, ain't they.

[mtnsnake]

44. Stop playing games. Either show us where he said it or not

I searched & I couldn't find it. All I could find was the quote I had in the OP. I couldn't find where Carville called for Dean's replacement, as so many here have claimed.

[madfloridian]

46. Stop attacking me...now

Stop ordering me around. What is wrong with you today?

[mtnsnake]

52. I didn't attack you, but speaking of someone ordering someone around...

thanks for rudely telling me, "find it", when I politely asked you to do so the first time.

[wyldwolf]

72. Geez! This is comical.

[movonne]

4. How do people get in touch with Carville??I haven't been able to

look at him ever since he married that hag of a wife, I felt right then he has no loyalties to the Dem party...and it has been proven true..

[LiviaOlivia]

7. Try this

from a dkos diary:
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2006/11/10/135231/90

Update 2: Tell James how wrong he is: [e-mail] but be civil. You may remind him of how he was a Traitor in 2004 or how Biden recognizes Dean's Contribution, Write Letters and above all, contribute!

[mtnsnake]

11. I read that, & no where does Carville say Dean should be replaced

in that link.

[madfloridian]

21. Oh yeh, and he didn't betray Kerry either. Right?

All our imagination? Sure it is. Just us stupid lefties.

[mtnsnake]

34. No need to get cranky & change the subject just because someone messed up

by saying Carville called for Dean's replacement when it appears he did no such thing, but show me the proof to the contrary if you can.

[karynnj]

68. Every cable news show I saw interpreted the comments

exactly as MMadfloridian did.

Come on - the quotes say that he did a worse job than Mehlman, who suffered a huge loss.

He said WHO would be a good replacement

He attacked him the week befre the election and wanted him to borrow money


This is not tough to figure out.

[mtnsnake]

73. What's Kerry got to do with the question I asked in the OP? Oh wait,

everything here is related to Down with Hillary, Up with Kerry. I forgot.

How about we forget about Hillary and Kerry and stick to the subject of the OP, please.

Then again, it's all but been proven that Carville did NOT call for Dean's ouster, so what else is there to do but deflect the subject to something else, eh.

[karynnj]

83. Kerry is not mentioned in my post - just Dean

I said:
"Come on - the quotes say that he did a worse job than Mehlman, who suffered a huge loss.

He said WHO would be a good replacement

He attacked him the week befre the election and wanted him to borrow money


This is not tough to figure out."

So I will rewrite this eliminating what I thought were obvious pronouns:

Come on - the quotes say that Carville did a worse job than Mehlman, who suffered a huge loss.

Carville said WHO would be a good replacement

Carville attacked Dean the week befre the election and wanted Dean to borrow money


This is not tough to figure out.


Where is Kerry????? This attack is unwarranted.

[mtnsnake]

84. It's because the post you replied to was one where I was replying to

another post where that poster had brought Kerry into it, when Kerry had nothing to do with the discussion at hand, thus the assumption that, since it was in the same string, your post had something to do with Kerry, too.

Sorry about that. Of all the Kerry loyalists, you're probably the last one who would post everything under the sun with a Kerry motive in mind. I apologize for that.

[karynnj]

85. Thanks no offense taken - I assumed it was the over use of pronouns

OIn this I genuinely was outraged that Dean who had done an absolutely incredible job was getting the same nasty treatment he would have gotten if the election would have been a fiasco.

Dean or Feingold are my favorite politicians after Kerry.

[movonne]

14. Thank You

[LiviaOlivia]

43. My pleasure

:)

[AtomicKitten]

5. No he did not.

It's a bullshit extrapolation from a blog starting with the random "some Democrats" and ending with a quote from Carville that doesn't even mention Dean.

my thoughts:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2676652&mesg_id=2678386

**************

Here is all of the blog chatter that precipitated this internet jihad:

Some big name Democrats want to oust DNC Chairman Howard Dean, arguing that his stubborn commitment to the 50-state strategy and his stinginess with funds for House races cost the Democrats several pickup opportunities.

The candidate being floated to replace Dean? Harold Ford.

Says James Carville, one of the anti-Deaniacs, "Suppose Harold Ford became chairman of the DNC? How much more money do you think we could raise? Just think of the difference it could make in one day. Now probably Harold Ford wants to stay in Tennessee. I just appointed myself his campaign manager."

--Ryan Lizza
http://www.tnr.com/blog/theplank?pid=56467:mad

[shrub chipper]

16. excuse me!

How do you explain this:

I just appointed myself his campaign manager."

[AtomicKitten]

19. ***

as I posted elsewhere:

Carville's comment didn't mention Dean. Carville's comment began with "suppose ..." Carville likes Harold Ford; Carville is just one of those centrist/DLC kind of guys. People are entitled to prefer some Dems over others. Murtha was Pelosi's campaign manager when she became House leader in 2002, later he intended to run against her for House Speaker. It's a big clubhouse where people jostle positions, a big family where vicissitudes create alternating alliances and grudge matches, ever-changing, the constant being family is family. I prefer to observe dispassionately; that is my prerogative. If you choose to get emotionally involved, takes sides and pile on, that's yours.

[mtnsnake]

32. Talk about taking something out of context

As if that sentence you quoted proves Carville actually called for Dean's replacement. Not even close.

[Elidor]

20. Poor Carville

He wast just thinking out loud, just speculating: "Suppose Harold Ford became chairman of the DNC? How much more money do you think we could raise?" He didn't intend to denigrate Howard Dean. Carville is just misunderstood.

:sarcasm:

[AtomicKitten]

22. extrapolate and pile on

some of you are silly, silly people with too much time on your hands

[ljm2002]

48. I always enjoy it...

...when a poster has multiple replies in a thread, then accuses other posters of "having too much time on their hands".

We need a corollary to Godwin's Law, something like: "Whenever someone accuses other participants in a thread of having too much time on their hands (as evidenced by their participation in the thread), the accuser is automatically prohibited from any more replies -- or if that is not possible, everyone else is bound to ignore them thereafter."

[AtomicKitten]

49. well, you can just chalk it up

to very few voices of reason and sanity in the midst of sheep that are more than willing to pile on a blog comment based on an extrapolation of conjecture. But you enjoy yourself anyhow.

[ljm2002]

51. Sure thing...

...I'm sure that Howard Dean spokeswoman Karen Finney of the DNC also simply misunderstood what Carville was saying:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2956505

[AtomicKitten]

55. you can read precisely the blog entry that precipitated this brouhaha

posted up-thread. If you can point to where Carville calls for ousting Dean, I will yield. A response to something Carville did not say does not prove that he said it.

Carville did not say that, but I will await you proving me wrong and gladly capitulate if you show me where he said what he is alleged to have said.

[ljm2002]

59. Wow, a literalist...

...so are we to ignore the clear meaning of his words?

Lizza quotes "anti-Deaniac" James Carville thus: "Suppose Harold Ford became chairman of the DNC. How much more money do you think we could raise? Just think of the difference it could make in one day. Now probably Harold Ford wants to stay in Tennessee. I just appointed myself his campaign manager."

Do you read this statement as support for Dean? As a neutral remark??? I certainly don't. So here we are, 3 days after a historic Democratic win, and already Dean is beleaguered by the same neutered Beltway insiders who have engineered loss after loss for us.

I think Dean's 50 state strategy was brilliant. Yes it was risky at one level, and yes there are individual races where it may have taken resources away rather than helped. But overall it was a clear success, and we have also built up the party infrastructure across the board, something that will serve the party well in the long term.

Oh well, I'm pretty sure Dean can take care of himself. After being reamed by the media for the Dean Scream, he returned with a vengeance, apparently taking to heart the old maxim "Don't get mad, get even" -- and showing us all how it's done. Whereas Carville thinks now is an appropriate time to talk about replacing him -- and yes, IMO there is no other way to read his remarks.

[AtomicKitten]

62. ***

And it is unfortunate that you consider a literal statement - i.e., what someone actually says - to be of less value than a random subjective interpretation that reaches a conclusion that equals something that wasn't said. On that point, we certainly do party company.

I do agree enthusiastically that Dean has done a great job as DNC chair. :)

[Cha]

64. I love how Dean can take

care of himself..and how he's helping the whole country out in spite of the pesky dlc nipping at his heels, so to speak.

Can you say, "trail balloons"? :)

[mtnsnake]

28. Thank you.

AFAIC, James Carville is owed an apology from all the people who posted something he never said.

[AtomicKitten]

31. yeah, well don't hold your breath on that

It's my birthday today and I'll leave you to deal with the knuckleheads here.

[OzarkDem]

12. If Dean took the time to respond

it would seem so.

[JI7]

13. so why did Dean respond the way he did ?

i doubt it was just about this one thing. who knows what went on behind the scenes.

[blondeatlast]

15. Too close for comfort for me. From Rolling Stone Online:

The New Republic, meanwhile, is giving voice to high-caliber Dean snipers, who apparently want to can The Screamer and replace him with the best of the Dems’ also rans from ‘06.

Some big name Democrats want to oust DNC Chairman Howard Dean, arguing that his stubborn commitment to the 50-state strategy and his stinginess with funds for House races cost the Democrats several pickup opportunities.

The candidate being floated to replace Dean? Harold Ford.

Says James Carville, one of the anti-Deaniacs, “Suppose Harold Ford became chairman of the DNC? How much more money do you think we could raise? Just think of the difference it could make in one day. Now probably Harold Ford wants to stay in Tennessee. I just appointed myself his campaign manager.”

Link: http://www.rollingstone.com/nationalaffairs/?p=778

[mtnsnake]

17. This aint horseshoes. Either he called for Dean's replacement or he didn't

edit for spelling

[AtomicKitten]

24. he didn't

But, you know what? You're on your own trying to establish a modicum of truth around this place. It's time to pile-on, doncha know? Feh.

[OzarkDem]

25. Then why did Dean respond?

[AtomicKitten]

29. **

Um, why would you ask me that? Ask Dean, but I would suspect in response to the stink raised on the internet and brought here to DU, a brouhaha woven entirely out of extrapolation and conjecture.

Jebus H. Christ.

[OzarkDem]

38. Dean's response

was directly to Carville. He's not usually one to respond based on "internet rumors".

[AtomicKitten]

50. well you read the blog comment

that precipitated this; I posted it in its entirety upthread. It was conjecture put together with a comment Carville made in Rolling Stone in which he most certainly did not call for the ousting of Dean. His comment was in support of Ford and that he would be his campaign manager if he decided to run for the head of the DNC which, I'm certain you are aware, is a temporary position for everyone. What this is is fodder for people that starting hating Carville and ends with a boneheaded comment on a blog, and voila, DU is all atwitter about something Carville didn't even say.

[flpoljunkie]

23. Remember Dean said he had to decide soon where the '08 convention would be--Denver or NY!

Isn't that interesting? Which Democrat who is supported by James Carville would benefit the most by the convention being held in New York?

[OzarkDem]

26. Denver it is, then

That would be a great location, especially in the summertime.

[geek tragedy]

41. And in a state that's turning bluer by the year. eom

[flpoljunkie]

18. Carville also said this to NYTimes' Nagourney and posted earlier by kpete.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2676660

Carville Says Democrats Won In Spite Of Dean!

Fri Nov 10, 2006 at 09:10:55 AM PST

Nagourney writes that in an unsolicited call, James Carville, a veteran Democratic operative, told him "the RNC did a better job than the DNC this year." Nagourney said Carville also indicated Democrats succeeded because the party's House and Senate campaign committees "compensated for the shortcomings of the DNC allowing the party to take advantage of a wave of voter resentment directed at Republicans." Finally, Nagourney quotes Carville, " When one of these things hits, it doesn't matter who the party chairman is."

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2006/11/10/121055/32

[mtnsnake]

27. From what I see, Carville didn't even say that one either

Carville Says Democrats Won In Spite Of Dean!

People are running around here and Kos, making like Carivlle said that, too, but I think that is just the headline of that Kos post. If Carville said either one, that Dean should be replaced or that Democrats won in spite of Dean, it sure is curious how no one's coming up with any links.

[geek tragedy]

30. Just like Bush never said that Saddam was responsible

for 9/11. If you read between the lines, his message is loud and clear.

[mtnsnake]

36. So totally distorting what he said on this forum is okay with you?

It's not with me.

[geek tragedy]

39. It's not a distortion--it's a synthesis of his various

statements. His message is clear, he's just not coming out and saying it.

[AtomicKitten]

67. it isn't as clear as some claim

Carville is old school. He had his day and his War Room was a force of nature at one time. He didn't call for ousting Dean. He likes Ford. He did critique the election which is pretty much his job nowadays; it was pretty innocuous. Why the need to pile on especially under the pretense that he called for Dean's ouster when he did not? Why the Jets vs. Sharks intraparty tension? The antiClintonites are always up for diss'ing anything or anyone associated with them, and ever-anxious to glom onto internet gossip and spread it like herpes. This is jostling within the party, people throwing out accusations and misrepresentations of quotes, and we bystanders deciding whether to buy in or not. If the "evidence" proffered is it, if that is the sum total of the offense allegedly inflicted, I'm not impressed. Howard Dean did a great job and is not in danger of anybody influenced by this non-incident.

[cali]

33. Here's a few cliches

for you: None so blind as will not see. Denial ain't just a river.

etc., etc.

You're not very good at following politics, are you?

As I've said repeatedly, this is the worst kept secret in D.C. Hell, my local VT paper had an article about Dean being forced out, win or lose, over a week ago.

Carville is carrying water for the Clintons. They want him out.

[mtnsnake]

37. Thanks for not answering my question

You're not very good at following politics, are you?

I never claimed I was, but you know what? Neither are you or you would've answered my question with a valid answer instead of a nasty remark.

[OzarkDem]

40. The question has been answered

Trying to parse Carville's words doesn't explain why Dean made a point of responding specifically to Carville.

The question isn't over Carville's exact words or intent. Its why Carville felt compelled to make such a dumb and divisve remark.

[mtnsnake]

42. Sadly it has, and Carville did NOT call for Dean's replacement

or someone would've supplied a link by now. Some people here simply hate Carville enough that they'll exagerrate and interpret what he says to suit their agendas.

[madfloridian]

45. Now you are just not telling the truth.

Most of us pride ourselves on truth. You are in a state of denial

[AtomicKitten]

53. and you yet again are just making shit up

to further your jihad against the Clintons vis a vis Carville. You have NO EVIDENCE that Carville called to oust Dean. None whatsoever. Your link to the blog does NOT provide that evidence at all; in fact, proves quite the contrary.

[mtnsnake]

56. I'm not telling the truth? I think you've got it the other way around.

This is the second time I've had to put up with someone wasting hours of my time by making up BS about me. In the first case, the poster admitted their mistake and apologized. In your case, I see you're just turning the tables on me for you're exagerrations about what Carville said or didn't say. Try to turn them all you want, it won't happen.

[cali]

54. Plenty of llinks have been supplied

I don't know what your game is, but you're quite simply dishonest. Carville took gratuitous digs at Dean all over the media today. It sucked, and you're distorting and defending. Ugh.

[AtomicKitten]

57. no proof has been proffered at all - ZERO, ZIP, NADA

The blog entry is posted up-thread that started this bullshit and Carville's comments don't even mention Dean.

I invite you to prove me wrong.

[cali]

60. Oh for fuck's sake

could you be any denser? Nah. Look, asshole carville went out of his way to to say that the RNC which fucking lost big time did a better job than the DNC. Now, who's the DNC chair? Hmmm. In addition, he suggested that Ford could raise more money, a not very subtle dig.

It's nasty and it's all about paving the way for Hillary. I suggest you do some research. I sure the hell wouldn't do it for you.

[mtnsnake]

61. That is really mean, cali.

Why am I not surprised that the only thing that could ever top one of your nasty posts is another one even nastier.

I'll bet you're really popular at parties. LMAO!

[AtomicKitten]

63. Internet gossip spreading like a virus.

Devoid of truth but heavy on the drama. Passed on like a bad case of Chlamydia.

For fuck's sake indeed.

[mtnsnake]

58. Then show me the one that says Carville called for Dean's removal.

BTW, I am not at all surprised at your accusation towards me that I'm being "dishonest". I've seen you and that try that same crap with way too many other posters before. It didn't work then for you, and it won't work now.

[flpoljunkie]

65. You want the excerpt and the link to the Nagourney article, here it is.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/10/us/politics/10mehlman.html?n=Top%2fReference%2fTimes%20Topics%2fOrganizations%2fR%2fRepublican%20National%20Committee

Republican Party Chairman Will Not Seek Another Term

By ADAM NAGOURNEY
Published: November 10, 2006

The praise from Mr. Romney was echoed in an unsolicited call from James Carville, a veteran Democratic operative who is married to Mary Matalin, a veteran Republican strategist.

“The R.N.C. did a better job than the D.N.C. this year,” Mr. Carville said, referring to the Democratic National Committee.

He said Democrats succeeded because the party’s House and Senate campaign committees compensated for what Mr. Carville described as the shortcomings of the Democratic National Committee, allowing the party to take advantage of a wave of voter resentment directed at Republicans.

“When one of these things hit, it doesn’t matter who the party chairman is,” he said.

[mtnsnake]

66. No, not that, but thanks anyway

I wanted to know if Carville actually asked for Dean's ouster, like has been posted throughout the forum today, but all anyone's come up with are his hypothetical questions about Harold Ford.

I already saw the Nagourney article, but I appreciate you passing it on.

[Clark2008]

69. Oh - it's gotten worse, mtnsnake.

Now folks are blaming FORD for wanting to be DNC chair when Ford never said a word (and can't because he lost his voice after election night).

Ford's being dragged into this fight by Carville and some on DU and the poor man hasn't even peeped since the morning after the election when he, craggy-voiced and tired, told everyone, "thanks" and that he has to repair his voice.

:eyes:

[mtnsnake]

74. Yeah, I've noticed that. Ford will no doubt continue to be demonized here

because like many good Democrats, he's feared as a threat to their illusions of the perfect party.

[madfloridian]

70. Looks like TNR is Carville's favorite whining place. I forgot this from 05

http://www.nicklewis.org/politics/democrats/james-carville-this-is-supposed-to-be-a-rigged-deal

From Feb. 5th 2005, just before Dean became chair. There was a lot of attention to the selection of the chairman this time, and that was not the usual way. Carville did not like it.

James Carville recently whined to the New Republic about the openness of this month's race for DNC chairmanship::

I think it's pathetic. It's so indicative of the Democratic Party. Now we're just playing into every stereotype: We're weak, disorganized, flopping around.... Somebody should have fixed this damn thing in November. I wish someone would have taken charge and three or four people would have gotten together in a smoke-filled room.... They're not running for president! They are running for party chair. This is supposed to be a rigged deal. You think the Republicans would do it this way?

[AtomicKitten]

71. busy, busy, busy

Inciting, stirring the pot, twisting the truth or just making shit up; whatever it takes to get the easily-stoked intraparty rage going.

I realize there is a small faction of people here at DU - some with Sybil-like alternate screen names (not a big secret BTW) - that are out to sink a HRC candidacy in 2008 by going after them or anybody perceived remotely connected to the Clintons. She isn't even in the top three of my candidates of choice for 2008, and I find these chessy tactics to be disgusting.

If you had any respect for people at DU, which you clearly do not, you would stop your campaign of division based on manipulation and cooked information, and allow people to make up their minds based on truth and facts and their own point of view.

[mtnsnake]

75. haha, if that's the best you can do at digging up dirt, then I'd say you came

up empty.

[ProSense]

76. No here is the best

sign of Carville's attempt to stab Dean in the back:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2958688&mesg_id=2958688

[cali]

77. I wouldn't bother

MS and AK know about this; they've just got so much invested now in this stupid little contretemps, that they won't back down.

[mtnsnake]

79. You wouldn't bother what? Being civil like ProSense? Being truthful like AK?

lol

[cali]

80. LOL

right back at you. If you're going to continually admonish me, as well as calling me a liar (without, of course, pointing out a lie), don't you think you should admonish your pal, AK? She's been far less civil than I have, including accusing people of jihads and calling them sheep and other names. MmmMmm. Nothing like a cup of hypocricy in the morning.

And reply to your heart's content. I'm done here. Done reading this thread, and certainly done responding to it.

[mtnsnake]

81. Darn it, I'm going to miss you!

I'm done here. Done reading this thread, and certainly done responding to it.

Hey, no peeking. Remember?

[mtnsnake]

78. Good work! But thanks for proving that Carville never called for Dean's ouster

beause if ANYONE could find a link that supported this gross exagerration that's been running rampant about Carville on DU, it would by you. Please consider that a compliment.

[Doremus]

82. No horse in this (DU) race, but it's a tad bit disingenuous to imply

that Carville wouldn't be happier than a pig in mud to push Dean out. Insinuating that he is guileless because he didn't utter the exact phraseology is silly.

His intent couldn't be clearer. Brick bats are not sweetheart roses.