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IRAQ-How the Heck Do We Get Out?!?

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Barack_America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-10-06 07:21 PM
Original message
IRAQ-How the Heck Do We Get Out?!?
The Dems seem to have been elected to help answer this question, so I thought we might discuss it.

  • Do we just up and leave ASAP? (also known as the "cut and run" option)

  • Do we set a deadline and leave by that date irregardless of the circumstances? If so, what's the deadline?

  • Do we leave only after a victory? If so, how do you define 'victory' and how do we achieve it?


    I look forward to hearing what you all think about this "little understood" war.
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    Cerridwen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-10-06 07:22 PM
    Response to Original message
    1. Boat? Plane?..............n/t
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    Barack_America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-10-06 07:27 PM
    Response to Reply #1
    2. Does that mean you believe in the first option?
    Or that you aren't sure?
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    Cerridwen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-10-06 07:49 PM
    Response to Reply #2
    11. I was channeling an old response about how to get out of
    Edited on Fri Nov-10-06 08:00 PM by Cerridwen
    Vietnam. I forget who said it and I was unsuccessful googling it.

    The point, at that time, was that American leadership was so busy trying to cover their asses and make it look as though we won and that Vietnam wasn't the clusterfuck it was that they were making it more complicated than it need be. The point was to just get the hell out of there.

    Wasn't it a very young John Kerry who asked "How do you ask a man to be the last man to die in Vietnam?"

    Yeah, I'm leaning toward leave now then send whatever aid we can; and that they request; to help the Iraqi people re-build what we've destroyed.

    Our presence in their country is only making things worse for them and for us.

    edit: added must be at the request of the Iraqi people

    2nd edit: I think I found the full quote and context:

    Renowned, beloved and controversial political scientist and pacifist Mulford Q. Sibley was uncompromising. "How do we get out of Vietnam?" he asked the class rhetorically. "You hear that all the time. Well, you put the soldiers back on the ships and bring them home. That's how you get out of Vietnam."
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    cureautismnow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-10-06 07:27 PM
    Response to Original message
    3. I can send a map and compass...
    I'll even chip in for a GPS. Just get out a.s.a.p.!
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    TheCowsCameHome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-10-06 07:28 PM
    Response to Original message
    4. Set a firm deadline for Iraqis to run their country, and then we leave
    otherwise we'll be in there forever.
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    Barack_America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-10-06 07:31 PM
    Response to Reply #4
    7. What do you think is a realistic deadline?
    Sorry to ask so many question, but I'm trying to figure out my position on this issue and I need as much feedback as I can get!
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    TheCowsCameHome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-10-06 08:01 PM
    Response to Reply #7
    17. Tough one. Maybe in three month increments,
    each with specific troop reduction levels until they're all out.

    Bad thing is the remaining ones will be in a more perilous environment.

    God, if only Bush hadn't gone thru with his stupid plan. (or lack of plan)
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    Barack_America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-10-06 08:07 PM
    Response to Reply #17
    19. I've heard a plan about removing basic forces...
    ..(in increments) and leaving Special Forces (some imbedded with Iraqi forces and some stationed nearby) as an Iraqi backup, ready to jump in and help with major disturbances. Is this sort of what you had in mind? I'm thinking this sounds like a realistic plan, but I'm wondering if these guys will ever get out (i.e. can you set a deadline for complete withdrawal?). If you haven't read Judy's post regarding the economic forces keeping us in Iraq, it was really good.

    Thanks for your input!
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    TheCowsCameHome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-10-06 08:19 PM
    Original message
    Bad situation no matter how you cut it. Turning up the heat
    thru specific plateaus seems the most logical way out. But how to determine how many and when to be completely out is really sticky.
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    TheCowsCameHome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-10-06 08:21 PM
    Response to Original message
    21. Should send Bush, Condi, and Rummy to live there until we're out
    That would speed up the process, you can bet your *ss on that.
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    Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-10-06 07:29 PM
    Response to Original message
    5. Get up and go.
    That is what is going to happen anyhow. Lets call it an orderly retreat to the periphery.
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    sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-10-06 07:29 PM
    Response to Original message
    6. Webb-Kerry-Murtha-Hagel
    They'll figure it out, I'm pretty sure of that. That's why it's important to call our Congressmen and encourage them to support Murtha for Majority Leader.
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    judy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-10-06 07:37 PM
    Response to Original message
    8. The point is not so much the troops..
    ..as the war profiteers who are stealing from the American and the Iraqi peoples.
    How do we get out?
    1 - We null and void all the no bid contracts with Halliburton, Bechtel, KBR, Blackwater, etc. for reconstruction
    2 - We open reconstruction bids to Iraqi companies only, and award the contract to the company with the best value (past record + price).
    3 - Once reconstruction has really started and the 80% or so unemployment turns into a much lower number, hence less time to wage civil war plus the infrastructure is getting back up, we pull the troops at a steady pace. The troops are really there to protect the profiteers right now.
    4 - Once the troops are gone, we close the humongous Embassy + Green Zone as well as the other bases and give them to the Iraqi (without weapons, just the buildings) to turn into museums, universities and hospitals.
    5 - We give the Iraqi Government back the oil, and help with negotiations with foreign oil companies, so that everyone including Iraq gets a good deal.

    Once the troops are home, we set up universal health care so they don't have to worry about their medical bills, including mental health.

    bla bla bla...dream on...
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    Barack_America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-10-06 07:42 PM
    Response to Reply #8
    9. Thanks for your reply! If I may ask you another question...
    I found your reply really informative and it left me wondering how much of this process the new Democratic Congress can affect this process? Specifically, I'm wondering how much Carl Levin can affect this with his new Armed Services Chairmanship!

    All of these guys have seen combat and are thus going to be eligible for VA care. I think that it just might be my own personal lifetime crusade to increase VA care to the level these guys deserve!!
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    Indiana_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-10-06 07:51 PM
    Response to Reply #8
    12. That's excellent! I'll write to my new Dem congressman on these! nt
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    Robeson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-11-06 12:22 AM
    Response to Reply #8
    28. Those ideas make a lot sense....
    ...which, as I'm sure you know, means they will go nowhere.
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    Indiana_Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-10-06 07:45 PM
    Response to Original message
    10. well, my spouse and I've been trying to figure this out tonight. It's tough.
    My husband is a Vietnam vet, so I feel he has a good view of the realities presented before us. He is 16 years older than I so I was just a kid but I remember having intense sad feelings about the situation.

    Anyway, first of all, his opinion is that (as we all know) it was the present administration's fault for thinking this was a cakewalk and not sending appropriate troop strength and equipment in the beginning. If we had prepared for the worst war of a lifetime, we might have been able to be on top of this before it got out of hand.

    One of 2 options we've thought about. First, we could double troop strength & supplies and command control in a shorter period of time for the Iraqis who are "in control" now to set up some infrastructure. Then we could back out quickly, leaving them with the appropriate tools to retain control. We don't think this would be easy since things are so out of control at this point.

    Second, we should just leave and quickly--let them hash out their own differences and come what may. They want us to leave anyway. The biggest thing, though, would be to not make the same mistake with these troops as with the Vietnam vets.....we'll need to help them not feel like losers. They were just doing what was commanded of them by our government (their boss). We need to overextend our support for them despite the pull-out. Remember, these soldiers enlisted and many are born fighters. Some will be mad that we left like this. Some will be ok--especially the guard,probably.

    He is angry that we went to war. He knew Vietnam was a lie, and he knew this one was a lie, too. He says there will be no good way out on this one.

    It makes me sad, though, that many more will end up dying in a civil war when we pull out just as in Vietnam.

    There is just no good way out. Period.

    The Rs will make us look bad saying we were to blame for cutting and running but always remind them that it was Bush who started this war on lies. They all know it was wrong or they wouldn't have been voted out. That was a clear message and don't let them forget it.
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    Barack_America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-10-06 07:55 PM
    Response to Reply #10
    13. The sending more troops option has also gone through my...
    ...head. But, ugh, I really wouldn't want to do that. I know it's on the table as a possiblity, but I hope it doesn't come to that.

    I found Judy's post to be very interesting (in case you haven't read it). I hadn't thought of an economic solution all that much other than 1). being pretty sure that Bush and co. trying to negotiate good deals for their friends was certainly gumming up the works, and that 2). unemployment is obviously bad as people keep signing up to be police officers.

    ...so complicated...
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    Massacure Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-10-06 11:09 PM
    Response to Reply #13
    26. I don't think that is necessarily a bad thing.
    The generals originally wanted to send in between 240,000-300,000 troops and Rummy only gave them 150,000. The U.S. has reduced violence in just about every place they patrolled only to have it flare up again after they pick up and move on to the next place. The obvious solution is to patrol every place, but that requires more troops. Instead of embedding U.S. troops in Iraqi units, the U.S. should embed Iraqi troops in U.S. units. One Iraqi per squad, then two, then three, and so on.
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    Barack_America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-11-06 11:14 AM
    Response to Reply #26
    30. It's the politics that makes me most hesitant to do this...
    ...Don't get me wrong, I want a solution to Iraq, but I also want a Dem in the WH in 2008. I fear sending more troops because, what if we actually have MORE troops in Iraq in 2008 than we do now? That wouldn't bode well for the Dems.
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    Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-10-06 08:00 PM
    Response to Reply #10
    16. There will ge a gradual drawdown in forces.
    Troops and Mercs will gaurd the Green Zone and the oil fields. The US will never leave Iraq entirely. When there are less US deaths and wounding in Iraq it will be less of a story. Eventually, Iraqis will forge a peace and will rid themselves of al Q.
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    lapfog_1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-10-06 07:56 PM
    Response to Original message
    14. Well, here is MY plan...
    Just slip out the back, jack
    Make a new plan, stan
    You dont need to be coy, roy
    Just get yourself free
    Hop on the bus, gus
    You dont need to discuss much
    Just drop off the key, lee
    And get yourself free
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    teryang Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-10-06 07:56 PM
    Response to Original message
    15. The American written Constitution has to go...
    No patriotric Iraqi would support Bremer's colonial edicts written for American multinationals.

    Withdraw all Americans.

    Pick a horse and back it. Best bet the Sunnis. Once they achieve undisputed control over the capital and the Shia militias in Baghdad are defeated, they will have to negotiate for their own Constitution.

    Lastly, after their accommodation is reached, they jointly reestablish control of oil resources in the north and bring the Kurds to terms.

    Let them do all the killing. Maintain the territorial integrity of the Iraqi state.

    The alternative which is already under consideration involves the carving up of Syria, Iran, Iraq, Kuwait, and Saudi Arabia. This will entail greater American and Israeli military offenses of interminable length triggering conflicts with China and Russia, Syria and Iran.
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    Barack_America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-10-06 08:03 PM
    Response to Reply #15
    18. Could you describe this second approach a bit more...
    ...I've heard rumblings about it, but I'm really unfamiliar with it.

    Also, what about their Constitution doesn't work?

    You don't have to write a long post or anything, if you have any good sources/links, I'd love to do some background reading on this! :-)
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    teryang Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-10-06 08:19 PM
    Response to Reply #18
    20. It isn't "Their Constitution" we wrote it to make the Bremer edicts...
    Edited on Fri Nov-10-06 08:41 PM by teryang
    ...permanent. It enshrines preferential treatment of american multinationals who may remove unlimited amounts of Iraqi capital and resources. It's colonial exploitation disguised as so called "free trade." In the 19th Century they were called "unequal treaties." Their have only been a few analytical pieces on the Constitution itself. It's rapacious nature was ensured by its ideological American authors. No patriotic Iraqi would fight to defend it.

    Americans conceal, hide or deny the colonial nature of the document and instead question Iraqi loyalty, courage, when they refuse to fight to defend the quisling government that it created. If were an Iraqi I would stick with the militias myself and colloborate with them. If I was a government officer I would do the same because the central government is a complete fraud, until an indigenous centralized power of state is developed. This can only happen when the Americans and corporate minions leave. And this is exactly what the corporate elites behind the administration refuse to do. The current plan is to carve up the entire area, including other countries in the region. Divide and conquer.

    Contrary to Henry Kissingers lies on television in the last day or two, it is like vietnam. South Vietnam had no viable central government and we weren't winning when the Vietnamese people forced us to leave. The same so called problems of sectarianism and unreliability under fire were present throughout the war. The ARVN never became a viable military force.

    The Iraq Commission's notions concerning alternatives are ridiculously Wilsonian and based upon flawed concepts equating ethnicity with statehood. My solution is bloody, involves no benefit to American cronyism, but will ultimately lead to a sovereign Iraq. Unfortunately, America is not interested in a sovereign Iraq. A sovereign Iraq would not allow American military bases, would control its own resources, banks and currency, and would be opposed to Israeli belligerence and conquest.
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    Heewack Donating Member (297 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-12-06 11:40 AM
    Response to Reply #20
    55. The U.N. wrote the Iraqi constitution
    And we capitulated on a very flawed document. It is the brunt of the political problems that country is facing right now, and doing away with it is probably best in the long run. The problem being is that you start all over from the beginning and I don't think we have that kind of time.
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    teryang Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-10-06 09:58 PM
    Response to Reply #18
    24. Here are the links: Looting by another name
    'In Less than Three Years’ : The cliché of US sponsored “democracy” to justify invasion and mass murder


    by Ghali Hassan

    Global Research, February 4, 2006
    GlobalResearch.ca

    ...In less than three years, the Iraqi people have lost their sovereignty and national constitution. They were replaced with fake sovereignty and a U.S.-crafted constitution that strips Iraqi women of all of their human rights and divides Iraq along sectarian and ethnic lines. In addition, Iraqis have lost their freedom, including freedom of movement, and their rights to organise and protest. They are replaced by insecurity, curfews, and martial laws.

    In less than three years, the U.S. orchestrated three illegitimate and fraudulent elections in order to manipulate public opinions, Americans in particular, and legitimise the Occupation. The elections were unfair, undemocratic, and based on sectarianism rather than politics. Indeed, all the so-called “parties” are divided on sectarian lines and do not subscribe to any political ideology. As mentioned earlier, the U.S. aim was to produce a puppet government devoid of nationalism and totally dependent on U.S. forces, and bent on carrying out U.S. colonial agenda. It is traditional pattern of Western colonialism. Colonisers have always used the clichés of “democracy” and “human rights” to manipulate their citizens into believing that their governments are morally responsible and have no evil intention.

    In less than three years, without the participation of the Iraqi people, the Bush and Blair governments, and the puppet government are in the process of transferring Iraq's entire economy into a “free market” economy to serve U.S. corporate interests. The long-awaited covert plan to transfer Iraq's oil resources to U.S. and British Oil Corporations is on the table. According to the so-called production sharing agreements (PSAs) – proposed by the U.S. State Department before the 2003 invasion and put aside to be implemented after the December 15 2005 illegitimate elections – Iraqis are set to lose control of their own economic and political fate. (See my Endless Looting of Iraq).

    In less than three years, Iraq has gone from a major oil exporter to an importer of oil and petroleum products. Iraqi oil prices have increased dramatically, and for the first time Iraqis are queuing to buy petrol. Many Iraqis believe that it is cheaper to buy a barrel of oil in Kuwait and bring by limousine to Iraq than buy it in Iraq.

    Iraq and the Laws of War


    by Professor Francis A. Boyle

    Global Research, December 21, 2005
    GlobalResearch.ca

    If there were any doubt about this matter, paragraph 358 of U.S. Army Field Manual 27-10 (1956) makes this legal fact crystal clear:

    358. Occupation Does Not Transfer Sovereignty

    Being an incident of war, military occupation confers upon the invading force the means of exercising control for the period of occupation. It does not transfer the sovereignty to the occupant, but simply the authority or power to exercise some of the rights of sovereignty. The exercise of these rights results from the established power of the occupant and from the necessity of maintaining law and order, indispensable both to the inhabitants and the occupying force. . . .

    Therefore, the United States government never had any "sovereignty" in the first place to transfer to its puppet Interim Government of Iraq. In Iraq the sovereignty still resides in the hands of the people of Iraq and in the state known as the Republic of Iraq, where it has always been. The legal regime described above will continue so long as the United States remains the belligerent occupant of Iraq. Only when that U.S. belligerent occupation of Iraq is factually terminated can the people of Iraq have the opportunity to exercise their international legal right of sovereignty by means of free, fair, democratic, and uncoerced elections. So as of this writing, the United States and the United Kingdom remain the belligerent occupants of Iraq despite their bogus "transfer" of their non-existent "sovereignty" to their puppet Interim Government of Iraq...


    This brings the analysis to the so-called Constitution of Iraq that was allegedly drafted by the puppet Interim Government of Iraq under the impetus of the United States government. Article 43 of the 1907 Hague Regulations on land warfare flatly prohibits the change in a basic law such as a state's Constitution during the course of a belligerent occupation: "The authority of the legitimate power having in fact passed into the hands of the occupant, the latter shall take all the measures in his power to restore, and ensure as far as possible, public order and safety, while respecting, unless absolutely prevented, the laws in force in the country." This exact same prohibition has been expressly incorporated in haec verba into paragraph 363 of U.S. Army Field Manual 27-10 (1956). To the contrary, the United States has demonstrated gross disrespect toward every law in Iraq that has stood in the way of its imperial designs and petroleum ambitions, including and especially the pre-invasion 1990 Interim Constitution for the Republic of Iraq. Most recently, to the same effect is U.N. Security Council Resolution 1637 of 9 November 2005, which extends the foreign military occupation of Iraq until 31 December 2006 but expressly subject to Annex II thereof setting forth a 29 October 2005 letter by U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice to the President of the Security Council guaranteeing that: "The forces that make up the MNF will remain committed to acting consistently with their obligations under international law, including the law of armed conflict." Thereunder, the new Iraqi government that will be installed after the self-styled elections of 15 December 2005 will still remain a puppet government according to the laws of war.

    http://www.counterpunch.org/dawoody05172004.html

    The ninth mistake was authoring Iraq's new Provisional Constitution by an American named Noah Fieldman, without the participation or input from the Iraqi people. Most Iraqis have rejected this constitution as illegal.

    Looting By Another Name
    The Corporate Takeover of Iraq's Economy

    By KEVIN ZEESE

    http://www.counterpunch.org/zeese05102006.html

    Prior to the invasion, Bearing Point received a $250 million contract from US AID to develop a blueprint for the remaking of Iraq's economy into a 'free-market' economy friendly to U.S. corporate interests. Bremer's job was to implement the Bearing Point plan. Juhasz points out that while there may have been an inadequate military plan, there was in fact a plan for the takeover and remaking of the economy of Iraq.

    Bremer had the power to create laws by issuing "binding instructions or directives." Bremer issued 100 Orders, Juhasz in 2005 interview describes some of the key orders:

    "Order No. 39 allows for: (1) privatization of Iraq's 200 state-owned enterprises; (2) 100% foreign ownership of Iraqi businesses; (3) "national treatment" - which means no preferences for local over foreign businesses; (4) unrestricted, tax-free remittance of all profits and other funds; and (5) 40-year ownership licenses.

    "Thus, it forbids Iraqis from receiving preference in the reconstruction while allowing foreign corporations - Halliburton and Bechtel, for example - to buy up Iraqi businesses, do all of the work and send all of their money home. They cannot be required to hire Iraqis or to reinvest their money in the Iraqi economy. They can take out their investments at any time and in any amount.

    "Orders No. 57 and No. 77 ensure the implementation of the orders by placing U.S.-appointed auditors and inspector generals in every government ministry, with five-year terms and with sweeping authority over contracts, programs, employees and regulations.

    "Order No. 17 grants foreign contractors, including private security firms, full immunity from Iraq's laws. Even if they, say, kill someone or cause an environmental disaster, the injured party cannot turn to the Iraqi legal system. Rather, the charges must be brought to U.S. courts.

    "Order No. 40 allows foreign banks to purchase up to 50% of Iraqi banks.

    "Order No. 49 drops the tax rate on corporations from a high of 40% to a flat 15%. The income tax rate is also capped at 15%.

    "Order No. 12 (renewed on Feb. 24) suspends "all tariffs, customs duties, import taxes, licensing fees and similar surcharges for goods entering or leaving Iraq." This led to an immediate and dramatic inflow of cheap foreign consumer products - devastating local producers and sellers who were thoroughly unprepared to meet the challenge of their mammoth global competitors."

    Full interview at: http://democracyrising.us/content/view/180/164/.

    The result of these orders was to create an economic environment more favorable to U.S. corporations than laws in the United States. As a result Iraq corporations, and Iraqi workers have been excluded from the rebuilding of Iraq. And, the Iraq reconstruction has failed to provide adequate electricity, food, sewage treatment and even gasoline--but U.S. corporations have profited handsomely from this failed reconstruction.

    Juhasz describes the impact of U.S. policies on the Iraqi economy:

    "The new economic laws have fundamentally transformed Iraq's economy, applying some of the most radical, sought-after corporate globalization policies in the world and overturning existing laws on trade, public services, banking, taxes, agriculture, investment, foreign ownership, media, and oil, among others. The new laws lock in sweeping advantages to U.S. corporations including greater U.S. access to, and corporate control of, Iraq's oil. And the benefits have already begun to flow. Between 2003 and 2004 alone, the value of U.S. imports of Iraqi oil increased by 86 percent and then increased again in the first three quarters of 2005."

    To further embed a U.S. corporate economy in Iraq, the Iraq Constitution contained provisions that approve the Bremer Orders. The new Iraqi Constitution specifically repealed the Transitional Administrative Law, but did no such thing for Bremer's Orders and therefore they continue to be the law of the land. Thus, U.S. corporations continue their hold on the reconstruction of Iraq, and U.S. contractors continue to have full immunity from prosecution in Iraq. Beyond that, several articles of the Constitution re-enforce the Bremer Orders, e.g. Article 25 requires "modern economic principles that insure the full investment of its resources, diversification of its sources and the encouragement and development of the private sector; Article 26 "guarantees the encouragement of investment in various sectors," Article 27 allows for the privatization of state property. Juhasz points out that modern economic principles means corporate globalization and the market principles of the Bremer Orders, and private investment means foreign investment.
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    Barack_America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-11-06 11:15 AM
    Response to Reply #24
    31. Thanks for those links!
    Will make for some good weekend reading!
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    nealmhughes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-10-06 08:41 PM
    Response to Original message
    22. Dennis K. simply says "Now." Good enuff fer me. I'll let Morality speak.
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    Barack_America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-10-06 09:09 PM
    Response to Original message
    23. Found an interesting take on this by Fareed Zakaria
    Rethinking Iraq: The Way Forward
    The drawdown option: It is past time to confront reality. To avoid total defeat, the United States must reduce and redeploy its troops and nudge the Iraqis toward a deal. Here's how.

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15459024/site/newsweek/
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    teryang Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-10-06 10:36 PM
    Response to Reply #23
    25. This article is just more delusional claptrap
    We need to get out. To prevent the Sunnis from being wiped out, we can support them with weapons, medicine, food, etc., covertly.

    It isn't a sectarian conflict only. We are the fundamental cause of the violence. To say the Shia militias won't give up their weapons to the "state" is ridiculous. There is no state.

    This is just another contrived formula to preserve American military presence, which is the primary agravator of violence and block to the emergence of a centralized state authority with the ability to maintain order and allow commerce to occur.

    The idea that Americans can micromanage this situation or that only our forces can impose order is the old 19th Century colonialism in poor disguise. More people will die if we stay than if we just pack up our bags and leave in a tactically planned withdrawal.

    The truth is that our military industrial complex wants an extensive base complex in the middle east for further military adventures and colonial conquests and won't give them up.

    Our national interest is in preserving secure lines of communication for international commerce by sea for resources, especially energy. It is not for the purpose of seizing energy or financial markets. An uncompetitive America victimized by an unethical ruling elite has abandoned industry and its labor force, rendering it economically uncompetitive. It hopes to salvage its international leadership by seizing resources and markets by force. This is a perversion of American values and the Pentagons mission.
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    Barack_America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-11-06 11:22 AM
    Response to Reply #25
    32. That's true. The idea of a permanent presence...
    ...that was mentioned in this article didn't sit well with me either. It seems to me that the permanent presence of American troops would only serve to destabilize the entire region. I did, however, find his ideas for the gradual withdrawal of troops interesting. I just don't think that withdrawal should stop with 60,000 troops still left in the region.

    I also thought it was interesting that he didn't address the economics of the situation at all. He mentioned the closing of state-run factories, but didn't address address the economic interests that have stepped in after that.

    In general, I like Fareed Zakaria's ideas, which is another reason I found this article a little puzzling. It seems that I have often heard him speak of the American presence destabilizing the region, yet here he looks to make that presence permanent. Weird.
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    teryang Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-11-06 07:29 PM
    Response to Reply #32
    35. Really
    Colonization of Iraq was the economic goal of the invasion from the start. Those American economic objectives documented in the Bremer edicts,naturally involve the destruction of sovereignty.

    Occupation by foreign forces forecloses the exercise of sovereignty or political legitimacy.

    There will be no "solution" in Iraq as long as the American forces are there. They are there to secure and protect US corporate plans and nominal Israeli strategic interests. If sunni and shia militias are limited to fighting each other and consolidating their power, ultimately, a resolution will be obtained. We are in the way.

    US multinational claims on Iraqi markets and resources are never publicized or recognized by Americans. The reason? Colonial conquest is a gross violation of human rights.
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    some guy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-11-06 12:04 AM
    Response to Original message
    27. Here's *a* plan -
    Edited on Sat Nov-11-06 12:06 AM by some guy
    the most detailed one I've come across so far, and certainly better than anything I could put together. As an aside, I read somewhere the other day that McGovern is planning to meet with the new Dem Congress, so I would guess this is what he will propose to them.

    Truthout link


    It's a kind of long read, but it also helps show how completely fucked up Iraq is at present... :(


    edit: sorry, I had a hard time with the link thingy...
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    flying_monkeys Donating Member (519 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-11-06 12:32 AM
    Response to Reply #27
    29. Any scenario is a clusterfuck and a disaster.
    So I vote we just go get our kin and book out of there.


    NO country wants an occupying force "showing" them what to do. And we don't need more dead soldiers...


    Iraq was a thriving country before Saddam - - trust the Iraqis to calm each other, re-assert civility and go with the form of government THEY decide to choose. They aren't complete savages there....


    Look, we went to find WMD (hahahaha) and we deposed Saddam. Really, we have done more than enough - - let's scoot our butts back out of their business at this point and maybe leave some money to cover the infrastructure we ummmmm blew up.
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    Barack_America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-11-06 11:28 AM
    Response to Original message
    33. FYI Biden and Levin will be on This Week tomorrow...
    and I'm hopeful that they will discuss this issue.

    I'm really interested in hearing Levin's stance, considering that his new position as Chair of the Armed Services puts him in a pretty good position to have some serious influence. He, of course, has called for troop withdrawal, but I'm interested to hear if his position has been tempered by the Democratic leadership at all.

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    area51 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-11-06 12:01 PM
    Response to Original message
    34. Declare victory & get the hell out.
    Isn't that what we did in Vietnam? :shrug:


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    struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-11-06 07:45 PM
    Response to Original message
    36. Gather Iraqis together. Say "Be nice: we're going home Friday." Leave.
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    sampsonblk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-11-06 08:32 PM
    Response to Original message
    37. Honest international effort
    Bring other folks in, if possible at this late stage. Arab nations would be better suited to help because they actually understand the culture better.

    And pull out gradually. Unit by unit.
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    Barack_America Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-11-06 08:38 PM
    Response to Reply #37
    38. Odd that we don't hear more about that option!
    Of course, we certainly haven't had the international clout to achieve such a thing...

    Man, I wish we could just bypass Bush and just let the Congress handle Iraq!
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    Disturbed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-11-06 09:12 PM
    Response to Reply #38
    39. As long as the Busholini Regime is in power
    the Occupation of Iraq will continue. They will not let go of what they want from Iraq.

    This article explains the con job that Bush and Cheney have been laying on the American people:

    Looting By Another Name
    The Corporate Takeover of Iraq's Economy

    By KEVIN ZEESE

    http://www.counterpunch.org/zeese05102006.html

    The Baker Plan will keep the Occupation in place via different means as we shall see. The Dems will not cut funding. They may offer various plans but they will all involve maintaining the Multi-corp and Military objectives of the US. The US will remain in Iraq in some form for many decades.
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    Trajan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-12-06 02:39 AM
    Response to Reply #37
    46. Applauds ....
    I will share one of my posts from tonight in another thread ...

    This really isnt that difficult to figure out (What to do in Iraq) ....


    Not ONE WORD has been spoken for peace ... not a one ....

    NO peace initiatives ...

    NO summits or meetings between heads of states ...

    NO discourse between parties ...

    NO intermediaries ...

    NO interlocutors for peace ... none ....

    Its been WAR WAR WAR nonstop for over 3 damned heartbreaking years now ....

    It is time to bury the 1000 hatchets, and start talking peace ....

    It is time to brush off the olive branches, and slowly wave them before the eyes of the weary ....

    Families, everywhere, deserve to be safe ....

    Sunni familes ...

    Jewish families ...

    Shiite families ...

    Christian families ...

    Hindu families ...

    Kurdish families ...

    Atheist families ...

    Mothers and fathers on ALL SIDES are tired of war ..... It is time to stop ....

    It is time for great men to step forward, and break the ice for peace ....

    STOP this breast beating nonsense ..... This tough talk, strident rhetoric, and bullying one-upmanship .... It is pure bombastic barbarism ...

    It is time for great men to step forward, and offer peace to all sides .... to build a consensus for peace ....

    The GOP is NOT the party of great men to speak of peace : they only speak of war built of internal hatreds unrequited ....

    It is time for great men to put aside hatred for the sake of human families ....

    It is time to speak peace ....
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    Auntie Bush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-12-06 11:00 AM
    Response to Reply #37
    54. What he said! Ditto! Makes good sense. n/t
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    Amused Musings Donating Member (285 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-11-06 09:52 PM
    Response to Original message
    40. With Our Collective Tail betwixt our legs
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    spooky3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-11-06 10:07 PM
    Response to Original message
    41. Convene the generals, ask them, and LISTEN
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    Trajan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-12-06 02:46 AM
    Response to Reply #41
    47. The Generals have a duty to do OUR bidding ....
    They control tactics based on the policies WE dictate, through our congress in a representative, constitutional democracy ....

    We would convene the Generals and ask them what they need to get the job WE give them done .... and they would do so gladly .... but it is up to our government to CHANGE the policy that keeps us there without end ....

    We need a PEACE and RECONCILIATION policy, and the Generals would need to only protect themselves and hopefully protect the peace process itself ....

    Wars dont end magically ... and Generals usually dont end them until the 'enemy' is killed off .... that isnt going to work here, obviously ....
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    spooky3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-12-06 04:22 AM
    Response to Reply #47
    51. This isn't about who's in charge. It's about who has the information
    that is most useful to have to devise the right strategy. Once the Dems have this input they can weigh it and proceed to decide the best strategy. One huge problem of Rummy and friends was their utter failure to listen to what experts said should be done.

    You have no evidence that the "Generals would need only to protect themselves and hopefully protect the peace prcess itself..." Their duty is to protect the country, and they and their people are on the ground. They want this to be resolved.
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    Trajan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-12-06 04:56 AM
    Response to Reply #51
    52. I think you misunderstood ....
    Edited on Sun Nov-12-06 04:56 AM by Trajan
    When I say "The Generals need to protect themselves", I am talking of security for our forces on the ground ..... Which is exactly what you said "and they and their people on the ground" ...

    Tactics and strategy is THEIR realm .... Policy is our realm .... not theirs ...
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    spooky3 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-12-06 10:47 AM
    Response to Reply #52
    53. And I think you misunderstood
    Edited on Sun Nov-12-06 10:58 AM by spooky3
    I think it is very important to hear what they have to say AS AN INPUT to the Dems.' decision making. A HUGE mistake that * and his minions made was in ignoring their comments, failing to plan, etc. in deciding policy. I did not say that generals should decide what the policy should be.

    If you are arguing that the Dems. should NOT convene the generals--for whatever reaason--and listen to them, then we disagree.

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    bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-11-06 10:08 PM
    Response to Original message
    42. Through Kuwait would be my guess. nt
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    opihimoimoi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-11-06 11:49 PM
    Response to Original message
    43. There is a very daring and unique Plan available...a DOABLE one
    and far less costly....The Plan is being readied for submittal to Rep Pelosi...a couple more day/weeks oughta be finished for her reading...

    We shall see.
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    Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-12-06 12:19 AM
    Response to Original message
    44. Turn the neocons over to the Iraqis
    for trial, and then leave.

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    Proud Liberal Dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-12-06 01:57 AM
    Response to Original message
    45. Withdrawal & Re-Deployment
    Edited on Sun Nov-12-06 01:58 AM by butlerd
    I'm personally in favor of a phased withdrawal and re-deployment of our troops (along the lines of what Rep. Murtha has proposed), as well as continuing to assist and support the democratically elected Iraqi government as we are able to. However, frankly, it's really hard to decide what the BEST course of action is for remedying something that has been so thoroughly bungled and blundered by Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, etc. since even before its inception. I think that, at the very least, Bush owes the American public a more thorough explanation of what "victory" in Iraq would look like and provide some semblance of a plan for achieving it complete with clear and measurable objectives/benchmarks.
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    fuzzyball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-12-06 02:51 AM
    Response to Original message
    48. The real question is WHY ARE WE STILL IN GERMANY & KOREA
    Edited on Sun Nov-12-06 02:53 AM by fuzzyball
    and KOSOVO and PHILIPPINES and OKINAWA & other places long after the
    fighting has ended? We have tens of thousands of our soldiers
    still stationed in those places costing us taxpayers lots of $$$

    WHY??

    My only worry about leaving Iraq before they can defend themselves
    is that the insurgents could take over the country and then they
    have all that oil money to expand and export terror.
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    greeneggs708 Donating Member (77 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-12-06 03:41 AM
    Response to Reply #48
    50. We Are In Germany and Korea
    Because 100,000 people aren't being killed every week.

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    fuzzyball Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-12-06 03:13 PM
    Response to Reply #50
    56. So if nobody is getting killed, why waste taxpayers money in Germany & Korea?
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    greeneggs708 Donating Member (77 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-12-06 03:39 AM
    Response to Original message
    49. Wrong Place
    Sorry, you are on the wrong place. This is the, Aren't we cool, we are more left then the next guy room.

    No one here cares about the issues.

    We just want to pat ourselves on the back for the next two years till the Republicans take over again.

    Seriously. My plan, leave yesterday. We know that won't happen.

    It could be we will just send more troops till we kill everyone that doesn't bow down to what America thinks.

    Then there will be three people left and we will have victory.
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    Sparkly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-12-06 03:21 PM
    Response to Reply #49
    57. I don't understand.
    Who are you addressing?

    "No one here cares about the issues" -- you mean no one on this thread, on DU, or "here" meaning in this country?

    And when you say, "We just want to pat ourselves on the back for the next two years till the Republicans take over again," who's "WE?" Do you honestly expect Republicans are going to take over again?
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    jpwhite Donating Member (178 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-12-06 03:29 PM
    Response to Original message
    58. I have a plan
    We need to have a solid plan for defining victory and a way to get out of Iraq. Victory to me means this:

    1) Saddam Hussein is caught and brought to justice (done)
    2) Iraq creates a new constitution and votes in democratic elections. (done)
    3) A peace treaty is signed between the Sunni and Shia religious leaders.....

    That's the part that we need to do. We simply go to the religious leaders of Iraq and tell them that if they want us to leave they need to publicly sign a peace treaty and agree to stop promoting the violence in Iraq. They will sign it in a heart beat. The problem is that they may do it just to get us out of Iraq. However, I think that's a chance that we should be willing to take. If they refuse to sign it, it will show the world that they are not interested in peace.

    The worst case scenario is that they refuse to sign it. What I would do then is to get a lot of the more traditional soldiers out and bring in more special forces. We need smaller groups of SF soldiers who can hide out in a house and catch these militias in the act. In order to fight an urban war we need smaller groups who can blend in.

    Then set a deadline of the end of 2008. If the violence is still not ending, get out. If they are still fighting then it is obvious that no one, not even the US can make them stop. They have to want peace. Why should our guys be in harms way if they don't want peace? I think that two years is a suitable time frame.

    James
    jpwhite@okstatealumni.org

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