John Kerry's "baggage" minus the spin

[ProSense]

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November 8, 2006

John Kerry, Keeping America’s Promise Commitment Helps Bring Democrats to Victory

For the past two years, John Kerry and the 3 million person strong johnkerry.com online community of grassroots supporters have worked tirelessly on behalf of Democratic candidates running in the most critical races in the country. John Kerry gave early and often to arm the Democrats with the resources they needed to compete, and together with the johnkerry.com community threw a record amount of support behind Democratic candidates this cycle.

Below are highlights of John Kerry’s work this cycle that helped make a Democratic Congress a reality:

* John Kerry gave away $14 million to over 260 Democratic candidates and committees in races up and down the ticket in nearly every state in the country.
* John Kerry traveled to 35 states to stump for candidates in local, state and federal races, helping to turn the vote in states from Massachusetts and Washington State to Texas and Virginia.
* John Kerry made it his personal mission to give the Democratic veteran candidates running for Congress the resources they needed to compete in this election. He gave $1.3 million to 31 veteran candidates this cycle. From throwing his early support behind Jim Webb, turning his primary race and giving nearly $400K to his campaign, to donating to veteran candidates like Joe Sestak early so they could run strong, well-funded campaigns from day one, John Kerry stood with his fellow veterans to change the course of this country.
* John Kerry stood up when his fellow Democratic veterans any time they were swift-boated by their Republican opponents in this election. When Leonard Boswell was attacked by misleading ads funded by the same Bush backers who funded the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, John Kerry raised 50K in 24 hours to help Boswell fight back. When the Republicans smeared the service records of veterans Patrick Murphy and Joe Sestak, John Kerry was the first to stand by their side and call their opponents out on their lies.
* John Kerry dispatched 5,000 volunteers into 25 states as the critical GOTV season heated up.
* In the final days of the campaign, John Kerry raised a million dollars in just 24 hours for 4 of the most critical Senate races, setting a record for online fundraising through the johnkerry.com community.
* John Kerry raised over 500K for Bob Casey in his race to unseat Rick Santorum in Pennsylvania. Kerry raised over 300K each for Harold Ford, Jr., Jim Webb and Claire McCaskill. Kerry raised over 200K each for Maria Cantwell, Tammy Duckworth, Bill Nelson and Bob Menendez.
* John Kerry raised over 100K each for 10 candidates, including Sherrod Brown, Chet Culver, Patrick Murphy, Joe Sestak, Amy Klobuchar, Jim Pederson, and John Baldacci.

Just look at what we did together: $14 million. More than 260 candidates, committees, and progressive causes. 43 states. Thank you so much for the personal role you played in this stunning achievement.

Listed below are those that together we supported:
Name/Organization State
Abdul-Samad, Ako Iowa
Akaka, Daniel Hawaii
Anderson, Glenn Michigan
Angelides, Phil California
Appel, Staci Iowa
Arcuri, Michael New York
Arizona Democratic Party Arizona
Aydelott, Judy New York
Bailey, McKinley Iowa
Baines, Bob New Hampshire
Baldacci, John Maine
Ballenger, Lee South Carolina
Barber, Robert South Carolina
Bean, Melissa Illinois
Becerra, Xavier California
Biden III, Beau Delaware
Bingaman, Jeff New Mexico
Bishop, Timothy New York
Black, Dennis Iowa
Blumenauer, Earl Oregon
Bolanos, Rick Texas
Boswell, Leonard Iowa
Brady, Jerry Idaho
Braley, Bruce Iowa
Brown, Charles California
Brown, Sherrod Ohio
Brunner, Jennifer Ohio
Burghard, Duane Missouri
Burner, Darcy Washington
Busansky, Phyllis Florida
Busby, Francine California
Byrd, Robert West Virginia
Byrnes, Pam Michigan
Byrum, Barb Michigan
California Democratic Party California
Cantwell, Maria Washington
Capuano, Michael Massachusetts
Cardin, Ben Maryland
Care, Terry Nevada
Carney, Chris Pennsylvania
Carter, Jack Nevada
Casey, Bob Pennsylvania
Charleston County Democratic Party South Carolina
Christensen, Donna Virgin Islands
Clark, Martha Fuller New Hampshire
Clinton, Hillary Rodham New York
Cobb-Hunter, Gilda South Carolina
Coleman, Chris Minnesota
Colorado Democratic Party Colorado
Colorado State Democratic Legislative Committee Colorado
Conrad, Kent North Dakota
Courage, John Texas
Courtney, Joe Connecticut
Cranley, John Ohio
Culver, Chet Iowa
Cummings, Elijah Maryland
Danielson, Jeff Iowa
Davitt, Mark Iowa
DCCC
Deeds, Creigh Virginia
DeFelice, Emile South Carolina
Delahunt, Bill Massachusetts
Democratic Party of Wisconsin Wisconsin
Denish, Diane New Mexico
Derby, Jill Nevada
DeVries, Betsi New Hampshire
DLCC
DNC
Double Speak
DSCC
Duckworth, Tammy Illinois
Dunn, Tim North Carolina
Ellison, Keith Minnesota
Ellsworth, Brad Indiana
Estabrook, Iris New Hampshire
Farrell, Diane Connecticut
Fattah, Chaka Pennsylvania
Fawcett, Jay Colorado
Fedor, Teresa Ohio
Feinstein, Dianne California
Ferrer, Freddie New York
Florida Democratic Party Florida
Fogarty, Charlie Rhode Island
Ford, Harold Tennessee
Ford, Jack Ohio
Frank, Barney Massachusetts
Franklin, Shirley Georgia
Gillibrand, Kirsten New York
Gilreath, Ron South Carolina
Granholm, Jennifer Michigan
Grijalva, Raul Arizona
Hackett, Paul Ohio
Hafen, Tessa Nevada
Hamilton County Democratic Party Ohio
Hassan, Maggie New Hampshire
Hawkeye Labor Council AFL-CIO Iowa
Herrera, Mary New Mexico
Higgins, Brian New York
Hill, Baron Indiana
Hodes, Paul New Hampshire
Hollingworth, Bev New Hampshire
Honda, Mike California
Hooley, Darlene Oregon
Horsford, Steve Nevada
Iowa Democratic Party Iowa
Iowa House Truman Fund Iowa
Iowa Senate Democratic Caucus Iowa
Jaffee, Ellen New York
Janeway, Harold New Hampshire
Jennings, Christine Florida
Kaine, Tim Virginia
Kelly, Molly New Hampshire
Kennedy, Ed Massachusetts
Kilroy, Mary Jo Ohio
Kind, Ron Wisconsin
Klein, Ron Florida
Klobuchar, Amy Minnesota
Knight, Patsy South Carolina
Kulongoski, Ted Oregon
Laesch, John Illinois
Lake County Democratic Party Illinois
Lamont, Ned Connecticut
Lampson, Nick Texas
Larson, Sylvia New Hampshire
Lawton, Barbara Wisconsin
Leadership Conference on Civil Rights
Levin, Andy Michigan
Lewis, John Georgia
Lexington County Democratic Party South Carolina
Linn County Democrats Iowa
Lipsey, Alexander Michigan
Loebsack, Dave Iowa
Louisiana State Party Louisiana
Lynch, John New Hampshire
Lynch, Stephen Massachusetts
Maine Coordinated Campaign Maine
Maine Democratic Party Maine
Maine House Democratic Campaign Committee Maine
Maine Senate Democratic Campaign Committee Maine
Manchester City Democrats Maine
Markey, Ed Massachusetts
Maryland Democratic Party Maryland
Massa, Eric New York
Massachusetts AFL-CIO Cope Fund Massachusetts
Massachusetts Democratic State Committee Massachusetts
Matsui, Robert California
Mauro, Michael Iowa
McCarty, Carolyn New York
McCaskill, Claire Missouri
McGovern, James Massachusetts
McLin, Rhine Ohio
Meehan, Marty Massachusetts
Meek, Kendrick Florida
Meeks, Gregory New York
Melancon, Charlie Louisiana
Menendez, Robert New Jersey
Michigan Democratic Party Michigan
Millender-McDonald, Juanita California
Miller, Ross Nevada
Minnesota State DFL Caucus Minnesota
Mitchell, Harry Arizona
Moore, Gwen Wisconsin
Murphy, Lois Pennsylvania
Murphy, Pat Iowa
Murphy, Patrick Pennsylvania
MWPC Educational Fund
My Rural America
Napolitano, Grace California
Neal, Richard Massachusetts
Nebraska Democratic Party Nebraska
Nelson, Bill Florida
Nevada State Democratic Party Nevada
NH Committee To Elect House Democrats New Hampshire
NH Democratic State Committee New Hampshire
NH Senate Democratic Caucus New Hampshire
NJ Democratic State Committee New Jersey
NY Democratic State Committee New York
O'Brien, Denise Iowa
Ohio Democratic Party Ohio
Olive, Rich Iowa
Olver, John Massachusetts
O'Malley, Martin Maryland
Orangeburg County Democratic Party South Carolina
Paccione, Angie Colorado
Pan Mass Challenge
Pastor, Ed Arizona
Patriot Project Washington
Patterson, Grady South Carolina
Pederson, Jim Arizona
Pennsylvania Democratic Party Pennsylvania
Perlmutter, Edwin Colorado
Pignatelli, Debora New Hampshire
Rainbow/Push Coalition
Red Cross
Reid, Rory Nevada
Reilly, Janet California
Rendell, Edward Pennsylvania
Reyes, Silvestre Texas
Rhode Island Democratic State Committee Rhode Island
Richland County Democratic Party South Carolina
Rodriguez, Ciro Texas
Roth, Elizabeth New Hampshire
Sabaugh, Carmella Michigan
Salazar, John Colorado
Seals, Dan Illinois
Sebelius, Kathleen Kansas
Senate Majority Fund
Sestak, Joe Pennsylvania
Sgambati, Kathy New Hampshire
Shea-Porter, Carol New Hampshire
Shields, Justin Iowa
Siferd, Richard Ohio
Skelton, Ike Missouri
Slaughter, Louise New York
Smith, Adam Washington
South Carolina Democratic Party South Carolina
South Carolina House Democratic Caucus South Carolina
Space, Zack Ohio
Spencer, Shelden Iowa
Stabenow, Debbie Michigan
Stender, Linda New Jersey
Strickland, Ted Ohio
Sulzer, Joe Ohio
Sumter County Democratic Party South Carolina
Sutton, Betty Ohio
Tennessee Democratic Party Tennessee
Tester, Jon Montana
Texas Democratic Party Texas
Thomas, Samuel Buzz Michigan
Thompson, Bennie Mississippi
Tierney, John Massachusetts
Tinklenberg, Ed Minnesota
Titus, Dina Nevada
Tubbs Jones, Stephanie Ohio
UFCW Local 791 Massachusetts
Uniting People for Victory
USO
VA Coordinated Campaign Virginia
Valentine, Mary Michigan
Vermont State Party Vermont
Villaraigosa, Antonio California
Virginia Democratic Party Virginia
VoteVets
Walz, Tim Minnesota
Wannamaker, Sadie South Carolina
Washington State Party Washington
Watt, Mel North Carolina
Weaver, Mike Kentucky
Webb, James Virginia
Welch, Peter Vermont
Wellstone Action
Wetterling, Patty Minnesota
Whitehouse, Sheldon Rhode Island
Winter, Bill Colorado
Wojno, Lisa Michigan
Yarmuth, John Kentucky


Bolding indicates that candidate is a military veteran.

Here is Senator Kerry's "baggage" on when it comes to the issues.

Kerry-Feingold is still the best plan and the election gave it momentum

[Ninja Jordan]

1. Kerry is finished for '08

[ProSense]

2. LOL! n/t

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ninja Jordan]

5. Only on DU is he not finished!

He is severely damaged goods. What a way to reverse democrats' recent fortunes: run John Kerry in '08.

[saracat]

11. Baloney. Don't get out much do ya?

[Ninja Jordan]

12. I do, hence my comment.

Kerry is FINISHED as a viable national candidate.

[ProSense]

14. Who do you thing will mount a significant challenge?

Or is your repetition just a wish?

[Ninja Jordan]

15. Anybody but Hillary (and Kerry)

I like Richardson, Obama, Clark, Gore.

[saracat]

18. Richardson has too much bimbo baggage, Obama is too green

Clark is an also ran who didn't impress(Though I like him) and Gore might have a shot because it is his due but his personality might kill it. He is more impassioned but he still doesn't click. And I don't care for Hillary either but she is polling well.She did extrodinarily well in GOP areas of NY and that counts.We will not win without crossover votes no matter who the candidate is.I would have a hard time pulling the lever for Hillary.But I would.

[NYCGirl]

27. You have any proof of that "bimbo baggage"? Never heard anything concrete

about Richardson. Are you confusing him with Henry Cisneros from the Clinton admin?

[saracat]

50. Nope. It's out there. And remember Richardson was Clinton's go between with Monica.

He was assigned to get her another job to shut her up.

[NYCGirl]

51. If "it's out there", you should have some links. NT

[saracat]

54. Here's one but it isn't specific. This is "gossip "

that is out there. I have heard this from crediblwe sources several times, and I like Richardson but He needs to be innoculated from this. I don't even know if this is true. This is just rumour but it is foating around and has been for a while.

http://justoneminute.typepad.com/main/2005/08/richardson_08.html

[NYCGirl]

57. Yeah, that's real specific.

:eyes:

[saracat]

59. If you look through the other posts regarding Richardson on DU

you will find other references to his womanizing.A rumour doesn't have to be proven to do harm and this has been floating for years.

[mtnsnake]

63. Amazing, isn't it

I used to come here for factual information all the time, but anymore it's like finding a needle of truth in a haystack of innuendo.

[mtnsnake]

62. If it's just gossip, then why bother? You yourself even said it's a rumor.

[saracat]

79. If you have to ask you don't know politics

[mtnsnake]

110. I might not be expertise in polics, but I know that heresay doesn't = facts

[saracat]

132. And facts don't influence elections!

[SouthernBelle82]

67. I have no idea about any of that stuff

but I would like to see Richardson be an ambassador to North Korea. Isn't it him they like for some reason?

[SouthernBelle82]

66. But you have to keep in mind

those GOP places were in New York. How will she do in Alabama, Kentucky, Virginia etc? Kerry won Tennessee in the primary's will Hillary?

[Arkana]

74. This new version of Al Gore (without fucking Brazile, Lieberman and Shrum)

would win in a landslide.

After what he did for the people in LA during Katrina? People saw that--they also saw Junior fiddle while NOLA drowned.

[kiteinthewind]

244. Gore is the one!!

:toast:

[Unbowed]

160. Two guys who can't win and one who isn't running.

Interesting choices.

[SouthernBelle82]

65. No he isn't

I still see Kerry stickers here in my town of Chattanooga, TN. We only voted 7% republican in this last election. Kerry could win and actually get installed as he should have been. I even saw an elderly lady a couple of weeks ago with a Kerry/Edwards sticker on her front bumper at a restaurant. He is far from finished. People said the same thing about him in 2004: that he wouldn't be the nominee and it was Howard Dean...proved them wrong then. Kerry knows how it's done.

[Ninja Jordan]

116. They haven't removed the stickers from '04--people are lazy

you'll need better evidence than that.

[conservdem]

20. I agree that he would be a bad choice.

I lived in MA most of my life and voted for him in every one of his senate bids that I was able. I hope he abandons his dreams about this. I really would not want to see him run.

[LittleClarkie]

30. We don't just exist here, dear. We do have a presence in the real world.

And I don't particularly care what others think. If he runs, I'll support him. If he doesn't, I'll still support him. If he doesn't run, I'll suggest him as Attorney General to whoever would listen.

There's too much potential there to waste. And I still think he'd be an awesome prez.

[_dynamicdems]

165. And we actually attend events where the senator draws huge crowds of ardent supporters.

The next time I attend a Kerry speech, I'll have to test this "non-real people" theory by walking up to random individuals and pinching them. :rofl:

Some people are really "out" there. If the only supporters Senator Kerry had were on DU, he wouldn't have been able to raise a million dollars in 24 hours, now would he? I'm certainly not that rich! He's lucky to get 25 bucks when I donate.

[Name removed]

201. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LittleClarkie]

228. You do not know me

What my perception of reality is, or what I think.

[mtnsnake]

64. That's a fact. nt

[Unbowed]

159. That's a bunch of crap!

:eyes:

[Infinite Hope]

61. Respectfully, he's dead politically...

beyond a run for Senate. He can't relate to average people. I've seen him try and he comes off appearing out of place. No one can win if average working class people cannot relate to him, especially rural America. If I trusted it over the internet, I'd wager $1,000 right now that Kerry will not be nominated in 2008, much less win the general election. He's a Senator and any remotely possible future promotion will be to the Cabinet of another Democrat.

Edit: CNN just showed a poll with 51% unfavorable toward Kerry (40% unfavorable for Hillary).

[SouthernBelle82]

68. Oh please

All you have to do is go to http://www.c-span.org and watch his campaign video's and see him with people. He's very much approachable and likeable. I can't tell you how many stories I've read where people didn't like him but then heard him speak and met him and turned out to like him. Even when he had to do jury duty one year (2004 or 2005) one woman was on the jury with him and said she didn't like him and bought the same spin you're buying but after being around him like she was she changed her mind and wished she voted for him and said he showed real class and respect etc. I do think Kerry can easily however get people back on his side by becoming a leader in the new Senate. He was in the last one but now so even more and can get things done. I would like to see his "Military Families Bill of Rights" pass.

[Unbowed]

161. I disagree, respectfully.

I've traveled quite a bit for work and am currently based in a VERY red state. There are a lot more people out there who really like the guy than you find here. I'm talking real people. Not that the people here aren't real. I'm sure you'll are. But there's more negativity toward Kerry here than I find in my Republican neighborhood. Nobody says he can't relate to average people except here at DU and on TV. Frankly the "doesn't relate" song and dance is a load of crap.

I got to see him at rallys several times since 2004 and he got the star treatment every time. People crowd around him trying to get autographs, shake his hand or just talk to the guy like he's Tim McGraw or someone.

Something about polls stikes me every time I hear people talk about them. I've never been polled or known anyone who has. Like I said, most people I talk to seem to like Kerry and wouldn't have any problem voting for him again. They aren't supporters or anything. Most folks aren't that political as to be supporters of anyone. But they like him. And they don't say he's aloof or doesn't connect or whatever the spin of the week is you hear about here or on TV.

[zulchzulu]

190. "I've seen him try and he comes off appearing out of place."

Where?

I doubt you've ever seen him live and in person. If you have, your opinion would be exactly the opposite.

[Infinite Hope]

242. Fargo

During the election while the primaries were still going. It was the common view of those who saw him here and in other locations. Sure sometimes he comes off well. But very often he doesn't. He does not come off as the average American which was well known to be his trouble in 2004.

Those who go to his rallies relate to him, sure. But seeing him on CSPAN and other rallies interacting with his supporters does not accurately portray his ability to interact with the rest of America. It seems too many people on here believe the American public thinks and perceives politics and politicians as they do. That is not the case. Those of us on DU are have a slightly different vantage point than the average uneducated and not politically astute American.

Personally, I like the fact that he's more intelligent than someone "I'd like to drink beer with." That actually appealed to me. But as for average Americans, they don't connect with him.

[LittleClarkie]

235. Depends on the person and if he feels comfortable

and I would indeed take a cabinet position over nothing at all. Nevertheless, this is premature until the dude announces or doesn't.

[beachmom]

246. Rumors of his death have been greatly exaggerated (see '03) n/t

[upi402]

86. Rightist smear is cemented in public mind for Kerry and Hillary

too bad and very unfair. I guess Kerry could have stood up to it and Hillary could haver danced with who brung her... but oh well, it's sad.

[karynnj]

93. Kerry did stand up to it

that's why they now say he should have just apologized - so they could say he was just too much of a gentleman.

As to jokes both Hillary and McCain have made far more inappropriate jokes -

[upi402]

95. joke by Kerry was a distraction

have you been following the Carville flap from Woodward's book?

[karynnj]

105. yes- and it's implications are mindboogling

If Carville told her that, what other Kerry stategy was tod by him and other Clinton associated people.

It gives a different to the whining that Kerry was slow to bring in Clinton people and brought in too few. I wonder if the Clinton people aren't the source of all the negative chatter since the election. It is interesting to note that the Kerry/Kennedy people did a great job in the primaries.

[tblue]

4. How sad. And for BS reasons. I will never forgive the Repugs & their media ho's

[rockymountaindem]

8. I love how people just throw that line out like it means anything

with no supporting evidence whatsoever.

[wisteria]

52. Why believe the hype and politically aligned?

kerry is called the come back kid and if choses to run, well he will run. You can bet on it. Now, go and tell others who think this little flub has done him in that they have it wrong.

[wisteria]

53. I am a Kerry support, first and last. Anyone else doesn't measure up for me. n/t

[TankLV]

202. that's too bad...

[_dynamicdems]

167. This was only a little flub on Kerry's part, but it is a HUGE flub on the part of

Clinton and McCain. Talk about showing your true colors! Kerry made a mistake: he forgot one word in his speech. Clinton and McCain can't retract their statements about Kerry: they have to stand by them. And in both cases this will come back to bite them where they don't want to be bit.

[blm]

69. Then tell us who is going to finish Kerry off during the series of DEBATES, please.

I'd really like to hear your comprehensive analysis of how they'll do onstage and who will dominate the debates as most competent over a wide range of issues, more passionate debater about the major issues, and who will stand out as the most presidential.

Because THAT is how most Democrats decide where their vote will go. Minus the lies and spin which have no place during the debates.

So, please share with us your comprehensive analysis of who will dominate the Dem series of debates.

[hijinx87]

113. someone once told me once . . .

that what you had to say was only 25% of the discussion. the other
75% was delivery.

you and I have been all over the place on kerry, blm, but while he was
GREAT on the facts, he often failed to communicate them well.

[_dynamicdems]

168. He's very impressive now. He knows how to work up a crowd, that's for sure.

I've attended about ten Kerry appearances since 2004 and each time he rocked! I'm talking ROCKED the HOUSE! People certainly didn't seem to have any trouble understanding the points he made if the cheering and standing ovations were any indication.

Maybe he was a bit senatorial in 2004, but the media deliberately chose which sound bites to use and they weren't his best. He was actually pretty good at communicating in 2004, but the best stuff didn't get out there as it should have.

What gets me is this: many of the people who perpetuate the "failed to communicate" myth have never listened to a Kerry speech or attend a Kerry rally. They simply parrot the perception generated by the media and by those who stand to gain if this perception is accepted as reality.

He can communicate quite well if anyone actually listens. Maybe that's was part of the problem in 2004: people were too lazy to listen. They let the media listen for them and pass along the highlights. Unfortunately, the media passed along the lowlights instead.

If one thing 2006 has taught us, it is that people are no longer going to be spoon fed by the talking heads. In fact, I think they are "spin wary" and skeptical. The media convinced people that Kerry was elitist who couldn't relate to the common person and that Bush was a down-to-earth sort of fella. After two years of Bush's reign of terror, perceptions have changed. The media is no longer trusted. Kerry's joke didn't hurt Kerry: it hurt the media. They tried to turn it into a major story, but everybody I discussed this with was disgusted by what they saw as a bogus attack on a United States Senator by a desperate President.

[hijinx87]

212. that is just the very irony

he was very good before the primaries kicked off in the 2004 election
cycle also. and he was even fairly adequate in the primaries. it was
once the general started that he threw a rod.

[_dynamicdems]

239. I agree, but he was basically hung out to dry. He was taking fire from ALL directions.

The man was trying to keep the focus on the issues. The swiftboaters were trying to distract from the issues. I'm still pissed off (excuse my language) over the lack of support the Democrats gave Kerry. They DID NOT have his back. One of the FEW who really did was Howard Dean. But there were quite a few other high-profile Democrats who went on the talking head shows and undermined the public perception of John Kerry. They pretty much threw him to the wolves. It was nasty, but quite subtle. They would typically go on about how important it was to oust Bush from office and in the next breath agree that Kerry wasn't really the best politician, candidate or very personable. And so on. Talk about mixed messages! No wonder America was confused!

It disgusted and enraged me then. Now I see many of these mealy-mouthed pols are considering a presidential run. No kidding? Gee, what a surprise!

Basically Kerry was on his own, but he didn't realize it until it was too late. Some of his speeches weren't his best, but he's still a damn good speaker. And the content of his speeches is as good as the delivery. I happen to think some of his speeches will be in the history books. People will probably wonder why Americans in our time were so stupid as to not recognize what we had in John Kerry. Just MHO.

In any case, there is Kerry on his own taking fire from Bush, the Swifties and friendly fire hidden behind luke-warm support and insincere smiles. Nobody in Washington wanted Kerry in the Oval Office. It actually scares the bejesus out of them for a number of reasons.

[blm]

192. People have smartened up alot more since Katrina and Iraq's civil war. And you still

haven't discussed WHO will dominate the debates according to your analysis.

If you ever watched them all on the floor of the senate debating the issues, that would be a good start.

[hijinx87]

218. I didn't dodge the "who will dominate the debates" question . . .

I'm just not sure that debates are relevant in the modern age.

* got utterly destroyed by both gore and kerry in all three of their
debates, but the man has been president for 6 years. so, it seems to
me that dominating the debates is pretty much beside the point.

and it's curious about senate debates. it's almost as though they aren't
conducted exclusively in english; senators seem to have their own language
that a significant portion of the country simply fails to understand.

[blm]

219. Except the debates is where people make their decisions. Post 9-11 world, do you

think the people will accept anyone with NO EXPERIENCE the way they accepted Bush in 2000?

Never happen.

And in 2004, BushInc had to purge voter rolls, suppress votes and rig machines all over the country to stay in office after his poor performance at the debates. Of course, they had a 4 year head start on that.

Since Dean helped strengthen th eparty infrastructures as head of the DNC he was able to monitor the election process more closely and counter their vote suppression tactics. THAT is what made the difference.

The media revisionism of what went down in 2004 is just more bullshit meant to let themselves off the hook. If we believed them, then VALUES VOTERS would have had their agenda promoted first thing by BushInc, but since they knew they STOLE the vote, they knew they didn't have to concern themselves any more deeply than the surface con they were already perpetrating.

[hijinx87]

227. howard dean did a tremendous job . . .

but the rethugs lost because they were morally exhausted and
intellectually bankrupt.

[_dynamicdems]

164. What an eloquent post.

You make such a persuasive argument. Your facts and opinions are intertwined in such an exquisite blend of prose and poetry it almost makes me giddy.

I bow to your mastery of the English language.

[TankLV]

203. Works for me...that's just the reality of the PRESENT...

sometimes too many words are a lot of hot air.

But as I do not worship the ground Kerry walks on like some here, I do not believe all of the negative image he has had in the general public either - I know better.

What he needs is a concerted good PR effort - it would be an uphill battle, but it can be done.

Need only look to Nixon for example - and bunkerboy's all too briliant (false) IMAGE...

If they can take a LYING, AWOL, CHEATING COWARD MAMAS BOY IDIOT SON OF A BASTARD and make him presidential and WIN, then anything is possible WITH A DECENT GOOD CANDIDATE!

He has a lot of hard work ahead of him.

He has come on like gangbuster lately - he needs to ratchet up the fight even more...

[zulchzulu]

189. Actually, Kerry will make the finish line first on Election Day 2008

I'm all ready to get my Re-Elect Kerry buttons ready. Support whoever you want... see you on the streets...we'll just see what happens.

[JNelson6563]

6. I'm hoping for a candidate who

will react to swift boat liar attacks more quickly than a sloth. Also being willing to wait till all votes are counted is a plus. Confidence enough to not depend entirely on consultants and polls would be double-plus good.

I'm sure hoping for Gore.

Julie

[sandnsea]

21. Did you just forget?

How many gaffes Gore made?? On top of these, his Moveon speeches were labeled as wild-eyed by the media and he never responded to that at all. My question isn't really about Al Gore, it's about why the double standard, particularly when Gore is clearly more gaffe prone than Kerry could ever be.

“I found a little place in upstate New York called Love Canal."
President Carter had already declared Love Canal a disaster area.

“During my service in the United States Congress, I took the initiative in creating the internet.” Excuse me, ARPAnet.

“Unlike Senator Bradley, I was a co-sponsor of it” McCain-Feingold
Russ Feingold was not elected until 1992 when Gore was VP

“Dear Mr. And Mrs. Delgadillo, Thank you for your letter regarding the protecting of the Texas Eagle. I appreciate hearing from you. I share your view that the urgent problem of species extinction and the conservation of biological diversity should be addressed.."
The Texas Eagle was a local railroad train.

“2000 years ago, a homeless woman gave birth to a homeless child in a manger.”
They weren't homeless.

[JNelson6563]

22. Actually I remember quite well

I happen to recall that Gore is not currently running for anything and absolutely shouldn't bother to swiftly answer critics.

And gaffes? Who said anything about faulting anyone for gaffes? Not that I don't appreicate all the time you invested in your post, by golly you'll be formidable during the primary flame wars here on DU. Of course you'll be pretty busy too, seeing as Gore has a lot of supporters and if he runs there will be endless posts about him.

Oh and here *hands element-n-sea a crutch*, that response was so lame it needs a little help.

Julie

[sandnsea]

24. Nice sidestep

Now how about answering the question. Why the double standard? Those statements were used against Gore when he ran, yet you aren't skewering him about his non-reponse.

[JNelson6563]

91. Bullshit but no surprise here

There's no double standard. Gore's been out there for 6 years now, telling it like it is, pulling no punches, consulting no polls or consultants. A man who is free of the constraints of office and has made the most of it. He won yet he lost. And he didn't concede until after taking the fight to the highest court in the land.

I don't think we can say any of those things about Kerry.

No double standard needs to be applied in order to see the differences here.

Julie

[SouthernBelle82]

71. I know what you mean

People also like to say Kerry is finished because he "lost" 2004 but yet so did Al Gore in 2000 and he's not a loser but John Kerry is? And what about all the other people who ran in the 2004 primary's and lost? They aren't losers? The hypocrisy when it comes to that is simply amazing.

[Unbowed]

162. Gore isn't all that popular in his home state, I can tell you that.

People think he's an idiot. That's kinda unfair, but the perception is there. He tripped on his tongue a few times. Not a big deal as far as I'm concerned. Who doesn't open mouth and insert foot once in a while?

[NYCGirl]

179. Democrats aren't very popular in Tennessee. Whatever else you think about

Al Gore, a person thinking he's an "idiot"IS himself an idiot.

[LittleClarkie]

29. Funny, but not really, how people thought his swift response this time

was a mistake. Most here did not, but others have said he should have apologized right away. I was proud of him.

He wasn't a sloth. He was just too methodical for his own good. And Cahill and Shrum kept saying that if they ignored it like they did in May of that year, it would go away again like it did in May. But the media was bored in August. At least once, that I heard about, they were telling aides to restrain the candidate, as he was about to respond angrily in front of the VFW, and they didn't want him to appear too bitter.

Actually he's pretty spiffy when he's mad.

44. I'm hoping for Gore too, not because he hasn't made mistakes...

but because he learned from them. And I have yet to see Kerry realize that the presidency wasn't taken from him, HE LOST IT. That's a pretty profound difference if you ask me.

[SouthernBelle82]

72. Wow you haven't been paying attention to Kerry have you?

You should listen to his recent interview's, he was on the Stephanie Miller show not too long ago, and see the difference between him. He has most assuredly learned from his mistakes and has even said so. You can tell by how he responds to attacks now. He doesn't put up with it because he can do things his way. He didn't lose it. It was stolen. I think it's you who needs to realize that.

[blossomstar]

84. So glad you stated the fact that it was stolen... true that. Kerry will rise again.

[TankLV]

204. I'm hoping for Gore too - just like him better for many reasons...

Not a "Kerrybot" nazi (like the Seinfeld "soup nazi") like many here...

I presently don't have a deep seated hard-on for anybody right now...

[Phredicles]

7. What I WISH is that Kerry would take a seat in '08:

The perception is pretty widespread, even among a lot of us who voted for him, that he ran a horrible campaign in '04; he seems to have something of a tin ear.

Al Gore took an election cycle to mull things over; let Kerry do likewise, and see if he's up to try again in 2012 or '16.

[ProSense]

9. Ah denial! n/t

[Phredicles]

10. Um, you're referring to what's emanating from the Kerry True-Believers?

It may be a better brand of Kool-Aid than Shrub's but it's still starting to look like Kool-Aid.

[ProSense]

13. Three million on the e-mail list alone! n/t

[survivor999]

16. So what? I get e-mails from Kerry

and they go automatically in the Junk box. Am I one of the 3 M?

[ProSense]

17. You're still on the list! It's still the largest! Thanks! n/t

[survivor999]

23. Anybody can add names to a list...

but what does it mean?

[ProSense]

25. What exactly are you trying to prove?

You contribute to the size of the e-mail list, but you don't want to?

[LittleClarkie]

31. I've met folks like that. I guess they like to complain.

"I hate getting his emails!"

"Then quit."

"DON'T TELL ME WHAT TO DO!"

"Alrighty then."

[survivor999]

33. Awwwww!

[survivor999]

32. I tried to unsubscribe, but nothing...

Ergo, there are people on the mailing list that are not exactly Kerry's fans.

[LittleClarkie]

34. Ah, sorry. Then you're not one of those I was talking about.

I really have met some who haven't tried to unsubscribe, and yet weirdly complain about the emails.

Hmm... I wonder how you could get yourself removed then.

I'd say a goodly number are on there because they want to be though. The response he gets for initiatives is decent enough.

[survivor999]

36. It's weird. Could it be that their automatic unsubscription

script is broken? I click the link and I get no notification and keep getting e-mails... As I said, it doesn't bother me because my filter takes care of them. But my point is that there may be many people who are only nominally on the list.

[flpoljunkie]

48. Their email sign up does not work either way, to subscribe or unsubscribe

Someone should tell their techs.

[survivor999]

102. Their techs are overwhelmed! With 3M e-mails to read!

LOL :)

[TankLV]

206. I like the emails - they're informative...

but I still prefer the Senator remain Senator...

Sorry, you'll all have to do better than berate and insult us if you are to convince us to support him again...

just sayin...

[LittleClarkie]

209. I didn't.

And I won't.

Support him or don't. But there's a fellow around here who keeps telling me not to waste my time because he's toast. I'd have to say the same regarding him. He'll have to do better than that.

Perhaps you should seek out the ones who have beratted you and insulted you, and tell them directly. Just sayin'.

[TankLV]

213. You are the main one - and you don't even see it...

that's sad...

[LittleClarkie]

216. Do a find for posts where I've insulted people

I'm one of the main supporters, that's true. But show me where I've been unduly insulting or berating.

[LittleClarkie]

224. Still waiting.

Thanks.

[TankLV]

205. Hee hee - that's so true...

and PRICELESS observation...

[LittleClarkie]

210. Actually, I'm not drinking koolade

I've just looked closer than most folks have and liked what I've seen. What is so weird exactly about that?

[blm]

70. You want a coverup Dem or an anti-corruption Dem? And how did the DNC do in 2004?

DNC took the dive in 2002 and 2004. They let the RNC outdo them in EVERY AREA.

In contrast, Kerry WON all his matchups with Bush DECISIVELY.

[sandnsea]

19. Gaffe baggage

2 statements in 2004, 1 in 2006. The horror!

Put his gaffes up against anybody else. Off the top of my head, Hillary's supposed plantation non-gaffe. And her joke about an Indian gas station, which truly was a gaffe.

Al Gore has a long long list of gaffes.

As usual, people pile on Kerry for absolutely nothing. I don't suppose I'll ever figure out why.

[rockymountaindem]

37. The Indian gas station thing was Biden's remark n/t

[karynnj]

47. Biden said that Indians were in all Dunkin doughnut shops

Hillary joked about gas staions - need to get our bad jokes by politician right. :)
-- Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton apologized for joking that Mahatma Gandhi used to run a gas station in St. Louis, saying it was "a lame attempt at humor."

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/01/06/elec04.s.mo.farmer.clinton.ap/

Frankly Hillary's is more offensive than Kerry's.

[rockymountaindem]

55. Oh, I never heard that one

Yeah, that's fairly offensive. Definately much more so than Kerry's remark, even if taken out of context.

[karynnj]

82. It got a lot of play when it happened but nothing like the echo chamber with Kerry

If she had not called Kerry's remark offensive - I wouldn't have posted that link - the p
Kerry's error was a slip after a month of running around the country, often going to 2 states a day. This was in some ways worse than a campaign - he was going on regular planes with all the inconvienice that entails. I am amazed he had the endurance to do it. From what I saw on the blog, he was great. Teresa was also out helping friends they made who were running in Iowa and PA.

His remark shows only that he knows that Bush did very inadequate planning for the war - and it failed because of that. The joke was not about the troops. It also does not call Bush stupid - it says he didn't do his homework.
Nothing in the joke reflects badly on Kerry's character, intelligence or his manners.

The outrage is entirely fake rather than from Democrats or Republicans - it was an attempt to gain votes and to smear Kerry or all Democrats. As to 2008, given Hillary's joke and McCain's Chelsea joke - why is John Kerry's flubbed joke a problem - Theirs reflect far worse on them.

[mtnsnake]

46. You can say that again

Al Gore has a long long list of gaffes.

As usual, people pile on Kerry for absolutely nothing. I don't suppose I'll ever figure out why.

If you haven't figured it out by now you never will.

[Kerry fan]

26. Kerry ran a great campaign in 2004.

He won me over. I was a Clark person originally. Didn't know much about Kerry. But I learned and came to realize he would be one of the greatest presidents this country could ever have.

I don't understand why some people say he ran a bad campaign. There were always at least 15 to 20 thousand and more people at his rallies.

And, I have NO doubt that, if not for rampant election fraud, he would be our President.

He got some very bad advice on the swiftboat episode, but, he learned from it, as he has shown by helping other veterans who got swiftboated in the 2006 election. Kerry was right there to help stop it.

Kerry has never sopoken badly about another democrat publicly, the way some have about his botched joke. IMO, that puts him above all the rest.

Take now, for example. Carville speaking out about replacing Howard Dean with Harold Ford. IMO, that is preposterous. Howard Dean probably did more for the Democratic party than any chairman before him. IMO, replacing him would be total insanity.

Howard Dean is straight forward and honest. Ask ourselves, why would they want to replace such an honest, straight forward, hard working, positive results getting person.

IMO, it's because Carville wants Hillary to be the nominee. When Bill was nominated , Carville said he wished it could have been Hillary. He said she is the smartest woman in the world. I, for one, do NOT want Hillary to be the nominee.

I prefer someone more honest and straight forward, like Kerry, Clark, or Dean.

[survivor999]

35. There is nothing in common between Kerry and Dean

So, don't try to confuse things. Kerry is no Dean. He did not have the courage to stand up when Dean did, but now wants the credit. Yawn.

[ProSense]

38. They have something in common!

They were the first to call for Rumsfeld's resignation:

Dean, Kerry call on Rumsfeld to quit

Defense secretary accused of ‘pattern of deception’ on Iraq

WASHINGTON, Sept. 26 - Democratic presidential candidates Howard Dean and John Kerry have called for Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld to resign, citing a “pattern of deception” in his statements on Iraq and a failure to plan for the postwar period.

KERRY, A SENATOR from Massachusetts, first said Thursday that Rumsfeld should step down, saying he proceeded in Iraq “in an arrogant, inappropriate way that has frankly put America at jeopardy.”

Dean, the former governor of Vermont, joined the call Friday and added Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz to the list of those who should quit. Dean announced that he was starting a national petition drive on the Internet to demonstrate support for their resignations.

Kerry Angers GOP in Calling For 'Regime Change' in U.S.

By Dan Balz
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, April 4, 2003; Page A10

Republicans jumped on Sen. John F. Kerry (D-Mass.) yesterday in the wake of reports that the Democratic presidential candidate had told a New Hampshire audience that "we need a regime change in the United States."

Snip...

"What we need now is not just a regime change in Saddam Hussein and Iraq, but we need a regime change in the United States," Kerry said.

House Speaker J. Dennis Hastert (R-Ill.) and House Majority Leader Tom DeLay (R-Tex.) led the chorus of GOP critics who attacked Kerry for challenging Bush during wartime. "Senator Kerry's remark, equating regime change in Iraq with regime change in the United States, is not what we need at this time," Hastert said. "What we need is for this nation to pull together, to support our troops and to support our commander in chief."

Snip...

Kerry spokesman Robert Gibbs responded to GOP criticism by saying: "Clearly, Senator Kerry intended no disrespect or lack of support for our commander in chief during wartime, but the point of this campaign is, obviously, to change the administration of this government. And unlike many of his Republican critics, Senator Kerry has worn the uniform, served his country, seen combat, so he'd just as soon skip their lectures about supporting our troops."

[survivor999]

39. Yes, but that was after Kerry realized that the issue had traction

based on how popular Dean had become because of HIS stand.

[Kerry fan]

41. Thursday comes BEFORE Friday on my calendar.

"KERRY, A SENATOR from Massachusetts, first said Thursday"

"Dean, the former governor of Vermont, joined the call Friday "


But, does it really matter? Both of them came to the same conclusion, as did many others.

[survivor999]

43. Talking about 2003, of course.

Today, that is a no-brainer, given that the public opinion is against the war. Back then was the time to show what one really believed. And back then Dean was the only prominent politician against the war.

[sandnsea]

49. Jan 2003 "Do Not Rush To War"

Kerry actually came out against Bush launching the war before Dean did in his Feb 2003 speech. Kerry also criticized Bush on the eve of war and said diplomacy should have been given more time. He was so disgusted he made his 'regime change' comment at the time. He criticized Bush on Tora Bora in 2002, when Dean was saying we ought not criticize a President in time of war. Kerry has consistently hammered Bush on this war, both for launching it and for how badly he executed it.

[blm]

73. You don't know ANYTHING about Kerry and you insist on PROVING it.

Kerry's been leading in almost every area for over 35 years, and yet you pretend he waits for others.

HORSEPOO!

Kerry has racked up a record of investigating and exposing more government corruption than any lawmaker in modern history - and if you UNDERSTOOD Real History, you'd know that by now.

FYI - corruption was the major issue for ALL voters in 2006 exit polls, and it is pure IDIOCY to claim that the TOP lawmaker on anti-corruption and open government should go away because CHILDISH minds who believe CORPORATE MEDIA LIES say so.

[survivor999]

88. Well, this childish mind will never vote for Kerry.

I followed the 2004 campaign very closely. I know the chronology of things very well. I don't need you to tell me what our Senator did before he did the opposite.

[blm]

92. You obviously didn't because no COMPREHENSIVE analysis backs the mediaspin.

The mediaspin that you use like a security blanket.

Coverup Democrats don't want Kerry in the oval office, and if you REALLY understood what happened in 2004, you would know the DNC and establishment Dems were actively working AGAINST Kerry.

Dean turned around the DNC from the collapse it had been in for 10 years.

Kerry WON all his matchups against Bush.

The DNC let the RNC run over it at every opportunity, because they were dead set against a Kerry win or any Democratic win in 2002 AND 2004.

What do you think Dean has been working 24/7 on for the last two years? Fixing the Dem party's collapsed infrastructure all over the country. THAT is where the votes get stolen - state by state, county by county.

COVERUP Democrats want Kerry out because he's the TOP anti-corruption, open government Democrat that they all know will open the books.

Interesting that you push the same BS that they do.



Democrats, the Truth Still Matters!
By Robert Parry
(First Posted May 11, 2006)

Editor's Note: With the Democratic victories in the House and Senate, there is finally the opportunity to demand answers from the Bush administration about important questions, ranging from Dick Cheney's secret energy policies to George W. Bush's Iraq War deceptions. But the Democrats are sure to be tempted to put the goal of "bipartisanship" ahead of the imperative for truth.

Democrats, being Democrats, always want to put governance, such as enacting legislation and building coalitions, ahead of oversight, which often involves confrontation and hard feelings. Democrats have a difficult time understanding why facts about past events matter when there are problems in the present and challenges in the future.

Given that proclivity, we are re-posting a story from last May that examined why President Bill Clinton and the last Democratic congressional majority (in 1993-94) shied away from a fight over key historical scandals from the Reagan-Bush-I years -- and the high price the Democrats paid for that decision:

My book, Secrecy & Privilege, opens with a scene in spring 1994 when a guest at a White House social event asks Bill Clinton why his administration didn’t pursue unresolved scandals from the Reagan-Bush era, such as the Iraqgate secret support for Saddam Hussein’s government and clandestine arms shipments to Iran.

Clinton responds to the questions from the guest, documentary filmmaker Stuart Sender, by saying, in effect, that those historical questions had to take a back seat to Clinton’s domestic agenda and his desire for greater bipartisanship with the Republicans.

Clinton “didn’t feel that it was a good idea to pursue these investigations because he was going to have to work with these people,” Sender told me in an interview. “He was going to try to work with these guys, compromise, build working relationships.”

Clinton’s relatively low regard for the value of truth and accountability is relevant again today because other centrist Democrats are urging their party to give George W. Bush’s administration a similar pass if the Democrats win one or both houses of Congress.

Reporting about a booklet issued by the Progressive Policy Institute, a think tank of the Democratic Leadership Council, the Washington Post wrote, “these centrist Democrats … warned against calls to launch investigations into past administration decisions if Democrats gain control of the House or Senate in the November elections.”

These Democrats also called on the party to reject its “non-interventionist left” wing, which opposed the Iraq War and which wants Bush held accountable for the deceptions that surrounded it.

“Many of us are disturbed by the calls for investigations or even impeachment as the defining vision for our party for what we would do if we get back into office,” said pollster Jeremy Rosner, calling such an approach backward-looking.

Yet, before Democrats endorse the DLC’s don’t-look-back advice, they might want to examine the consequences of Clinton’s decision in 1993-94 to help the Republicans sweep the Reagan-Bush scandals under the rug. Most of what Clinton hoped for – bipartisanship and support for his domestic policies – never materialized.

‘Politicized’ CIA

After winning Election 1992, Clinton also rebuffed appeals from members of the U.S. intelligence community to reverse the Reagan-Bush “politicization” of the CIA’s analytical division by rebuilding the ethos of objective analysis even when it goes against a President’s desires.

Instead, in another accommodating gesture, Clinton gave the CIA director’s job to right-wing Democrat, James Woolsey, who had close ties to the Reagan-Bush administration and especially to its neoconservatives.

One senior Democrat told me Clinton picked Woolsey as a reward to the neocon-leaning editors of the New Republic for backing Clinton in Election 1992.

“I told that the New Republic hadn’t brought them enough votes to win a single precinct,” the senior Democrat said. “But they kept saying that they owed this to the editors of the New Republic.”

During his tenure at the CIA, Woolsey did next to nothing to address the CIA’s “politicization” issue, intelligence analysts said. Woolsey also never gained Clinton’s confidence and – after several CIA scandals – was out of the job by January 1995.

At the time of that White House chat with Stuart Sender, Clinton thought that his see-no-evil approach toward the Reagan-Bush era would give him an edge in fulfilling his campaign promise to “focus like a laser beam” on the economy.

He was taking on other major domestic challenges, too, like cutting the federal deficit and pushing a national health insurance plan developed by First Lady Hillary Clinton.

So for Clinton, learning the truth about controversial deals between the Reagan-Bush crowd and the autocratic governments of Iraq and Iran just wasn’t on the White House radar screen. Clinton also wanted to grant President George H.W. Bush a gracious exit.

“I wanted the country to be more united, not more divided,” Clinton explained in his 2004 memoir, My Life. “President Bush had given decades of service to our country, and I thought we should allow him to retire in peace, leaving the (Iran-Contra) matter between him and his conscience.”

Unexpected Results

Clinton’s generosity to George H.W. Bush and the Republicans, of course, didn’t turn out as he had hoped. Instead of bipartisanship and reciprocity, he was confronted with eight years of unrelenting GOP hostility, attacks on both his programs and his personal reputation.

Later, as tensions grew in the Middle East, the American people and even U.S. policymakers were flying partially blind, denied anything close to the full truth about the history of clandestine relationships between the Reagan-Bush team and hostile nations in the Middle East.

Clinton’s failure to expose that real history also led indirectly to the restoration of Bush Family control of the White House in 2001. Despite George W. Bush’s inexperience as a national leader, he drew support from many Americans who remembered his father’s presidency fondly.

If the full story of George H.W. Bush’s role in secret deals with Iraq and Iran had ever been made public, the Bush Family’s reputation would have been damaged to such a degree that George W. Bush’s candidacy would not have been conceivable.

Not only did Clinton inadvertently clear the way for the Bush restoration, but the Right’s political ascendancy wiped away much of the Clinton legacy, including a balanced federal budget and progress on income inequality. A poorly informed American public also was easily misled on what to do about U.S. relations with Iraq and Iran.

In retrospect, Clinton’s tolerance of Reagan-Bush cover-ups was a lose-lose-lose – the public was denied information it needed to understand dangerous complexities in the Middle East, George W. Bush built his presidential ambitions on the nation’s fuzzy memories of his dad, and Republicans got to enact a conservative agenda.

Clinton’s approach also reflected a lack of appreciation for the importance of truth in a democratic Republic. If the American people are expected to do their part in making sure democracy works, they need to be given at least a chance of being an informed electorate.

Yet, Clinton – and now some pro-Iraq War Democrats – view truth as an expendable trade-off when measured against political tactics or government policies. In reality, accurate information about important events is the lifeblood of democracy.

Though sometimes the truth can hurt, Clinton and the Democrats should understand that covering up the truth can hurt even more. As Clinton’s folly with the Reagan-Bush scandals should have taught, the Democrats may hurt themselves worst of all when helping the Republicans cover up the truth.

Robert Parry broke many of the Iran-Contra stories in the 1980s for the Associated Press and Newsweek. His latest book, Secrecy & Privilege: Rise of the Bush Dynasty from Watergate to Iraq, can be ordered at secrecyandprivilege.com. It's also available at Amazon.com, as is his 1999 book, Lost History: Contras, Cocaine, the Press & 'Project Truth.'

[survivor999]

94. Yawn... I'm in MA.

I know too much about Kerry, pal. Will never vote for him.

[blm]

96. You know SQUAT about Kerry - you post MEDIASPIN as if it were certainties.

And mediaspin is about as BORING and predictable and as full of CORPORATE LIES as it gets.

You obviously have a HIGH TOLERANCE for COVERUP Democrats and no regard for the lawmakers who investigate and expose serious government corruption.

[survivor999]

97. I just don't take myself (or anyone else) too seriously.

Cool off, man. High blood pressure is bad.

[blm]

99. Ignorance is worse. Especially when it spreads. Media is dumbing to too many.

.

[TankLV]

207. Ahh - trying the insulting and berating tactic - THAT'll get the poster to change his views!

NOT!

That is YOU KERRYBOTS' problem - and you'll never get it, either...

[blm]

220. No - this is the counter against those who have been spreading RW talking points.

And I don't think countering RW talking points is something unique to Kerry supporters, it's just that he has been the main target of those RW talking points for the last 3 years. It may be OK to you, but not to those of us who counter RW smears against ANY Democrat, and in some cases, ESPECIALLY Kerry as he is a hero to those of us from the anti-corruption, open government wing of the Democratic party.

I understand that Kerry is a hated target of the coverup wing of the Democratic party because they have their loyalties with Poppy Bush - but I'm certainly not giving in to that crew.

[AtomicKitten]

100. The numbers minus the spin.

It's the numbers that count, and simply wishing/claiming a viable candidacy does not make it so.

Current DU polling:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2691401&mesg_id=2691401

Current real world polling:
http://www.pollingreport.com/WH08dem.htm

[ProSense]

106. Pretty good to be tied for third in the "real world!" Great place to start! n/t

[AtomicKitten]

107. Ah, yes, one of the Lieberman three-way ties for third. WOO-HOO!!!

[survivor999]

111. Ahahahah!

You said it.

[ProSense]

114. It's not over yet! Competition is good! n/t

[SouthernBelle82]

76. Uh no

Kerry was first and even had a petition.

[survivor999]

89. Kerry campaign was going South

because it was Dean who was clearly anti-war. Kerry, as usual, tried to have it both way (and now you only remember one way, the one that is popular now).

[LittleClarkie]

226. He did go South

Here he is in Texas:

[Kerry fan]

40. Stand up when Dean did????

What is that supposed to mean? Wants credit for what?

[survivor999]

45. Sorry. The damage was done then.

THAT was the time to show courage, when the anti-war position was unpopular. Now it's easy.

[SouthernBelle82]

77. Oh please

Once again you've missed it where Kerry was always critical of Bush but Dean said not to criticize Bush. So how can he say that but yet be anti-war? :shrug:

[SouthernBelle82]

75. Oh really so

when did Dean take on the terrorist's favorite bank? When did Dean take on the CIA? When did Dean go after the Bush crime family? Oh he hasn't? So you are right on one thing: Kerry is no Dean and Dean is no Kerry. You're going to talk about Kerry and courage? LOL! Please do your research on John Kerry and courage before you spew.

[LittleClarkie]

28. I've been trying to put together a post like that for two days and failing miserably

Nicely done. Thanks Prosense.

[Kerry fan]

42. Yes, Prosense...I agree.

Excellent work!

[Joe Chi Minh]

56. Brilliant post.

[cleveramerican]

58. the only unforgivable sin in politics

is looking stupid too often. Sorry but Kerry has crossed that line, and its likely he'll be the last one to figure it out.

[karynnj]

103. So,

Being right on nearly every substanitive issue in 2004 - is less significant than a joke poorly given. Even then Kerry did not look stupid.

[cleveramerican]

177. I'm from Ma.

I worked on his senate and presidential campaigns and even I know his dreams of the white house are at this point delusional fantasies. Never gonna happen, even though he rich enough and blind enough to go for it anyway.

He had his chance, one is all you get



besides I think the nominee will be a westerner, rather than a new englander or a new yorker, for electoral reasons.

[beachmom]

247. If you look smart 1,000 times, and stupid 1 time, and the media

ONLY shows you that 1 time, is that even CLOSE to reality? You're telling me that ONE TIME in 2 years is TOO OFTEN to make a mistake talking? That's utter BS. The fact is the media and the Establishment have it in for him, because he won't play their games. I want HIM in the White House working for the people not the Establishment, which is what all the others will do. Watch this Dissent speech and tell me again that Kerry looks stupid:

http://www.c-span.org/search/basic.asp?ResultStart=1&ResultCount=10&BasicQueryText=john+kerry&image1.x=24&image1.y=15

1st video at the top.

[laugle]

60. Too much "Kerry Fatigue" right now--but he still has

2 more years--who knows what will happen.......

[AtomicKitten]

78. CNN 11-12-06

Negative impression:

Hillary Clinton ....... 40%
John Kerry ............ 51%

[ProSense]

80. Newsweek 11-9-06

No chance you would vote for each one:

Hillary Clinton.....45%
Al Gore..............53%

[AtomicKitten]

85. that might be relevant on a HRC or Gore thread

On this one, not so much.

Be sure to bookmark it as ammunition for future primary flame wars.

[Nedsdag]

81. Before I get flamed

I think one thing working against Kerry that will also work against McCain: Age.

He'll be 64-65 in 2008, right?

The Democrats may want someone either in their early 60s or younger (i.e. Hillary, Clark, Gore, Obama, Edwards). Kerry was in the right age group in 2004. He'll be four years older in 2008. I know Reagan was 69 when he won and Dole ran in his seventies in his final run but I really think ageism will hurt him this time around. We can debate is "lack of personality" or his "duality" but I truly believe he will not be the nominee.

[blm]

98. Because the name of the person who will dominate the series of debates is.......

?

[Nedsdag]

104. Enough with the debates

I'm talking reality. The reality is that Kerry is considered a losing candidate.

If we're talking about electing President of the debating club then Kerry's your man but I truly believe the Democratic brass not to mention the grass roots will not nominate Kerry. Yes, he's a terrific debater (ask William Weld) but I think public will want a new face.

Wes Clark is a decent debater. Why don't you talk about him? I haven't decided on a candidate but I've seen Clark on television and he's pretty good.

[blm]

108. That's easy to say, but not the way it really works. If people don't match up on MANY

levels, they just don't match up.

BTW - the hush-hush focus group that Luntz studied for a few weeks, resulted in Kerry getting the highest marks from most of the group. Because of that, the report was buried and only slipped out during a commercial break on Hardball that wasn't supposed to be seen publicly.

Conventional wisdom is HORSESHIT more often than not.

[AtomicKitten]

112. "Well, wish in one hand

and sh*t in the other, and see which one fills up faster."

* Billy Bob Thornton, Bad Santa

[blm]

184. Yes, you should try it - if you think debates don't matter, you WILL be wishing.

.

[TankLV]

208. but be it horseshit or not, conventional wisdom is what wins races...

and the conventional wisdom and prevailing national opinion is not kind to Kerry...

[blm]

215. Except now we have an electorate whose main issue is CORRUPTION and

and once the campaigns actually get under way, who will come out DOMINATING the debate on THAT issue and just about every other major issue? When people see that the 'touted' Democrats don't have half the chops or resume or widerange solutions that Kerry has, then why would they prefer them? Because the media perpetrated a smear campaign against him? Then why would Hillary be in the running after she trashed the White House? Or since Gore claimed to invent the internet? Smears only go so far, especially when the lie has been debunked.

Conventional wisdom does NOT win debates or elections.

That's just insider BULLSHIT from people who repeat each other.

Kerry does fine from underdog position - and voters CAN learn given half the media chance. If it was up to insiders, Elizabeth Dole would be president in 2001 and Lieberman would have been the nominee in 2004.

[karynnj]

101. Wes Clark is 1 year younger and Hillary is 3 years younger

Senator Kerry is fit enough to ride in 100+ mile charity bike rides with a time that men 20 years younger than he would envy. (Clark is also exceptionally fit - he was born in Dec 1944, Kerry in Dec 1943.)

[Chomp]

83. Ok, but he'll never be POTUS. ....n/t

[d_b]

87. Kerry has my support.

[Mabus]

90. Money to my governor who was polling at 60% but none to congressional races

Governor Kathleen Sebelius was polling around 60% and won re-election with 58%. There was no money to incumbent Rep. Dennis Moore (D) who won with 64% nor any money the other three Dems running in Kansas for House seats. None to Representive-elect Nancy Boyda (D) who won - with very little outside help - 51% to 47% over five-time incumbent Jim Ryun. None to John Doll or Garth James McGinn who could've used it.

Sebelius and Moore were going to have easy wins. They were both polling very high numbers for Dems in a red state.

[IndianaGreen]

109. Kerry got a bum rap from the media, and a backstab from Hillary

I hope Kerry runs in 2008 just so that Hillary pops an ovary!

[survivor999]

115. Instead, Dean got off easy...

;)

[mtnsnake]

118. How does President Hillary sound to the Greens?

lol

[IndianaGreen]

123. I don't know, why don't you ask them?

I do know how Hillary sounds to the antiwar movement, and she won't get any votes from that crowd for she stands for nothing other that her own limitless ambition.

[AtomicKitten]

125. At least she's not a weathervane

that vacillates according to the polls.



ALL those that voted yes on the IWR suck IMO and the convenient slipping and sliding on that only impresses those willing to make excuses for certain candidates and not others.

[IndianaGreen]

128. She is a neoliberal--the flip side of neocons

and this is what the neolibs and the neocons have in common, they will use the US military to murder people that stand in the way of profits.

As Peace Patriot so eloquently described in this post:

This is how the fascists here strengthen the fascists there, to kill ordinary people, peasants and leftists (majorityists) who have successfully asserted the rights of the people in Latin America to benefit from their own resources and determine their own fates, or who MIGHT do so.

And, yes, this is extremely worrisome. Bushites/Corporatists HATE democracy in general, and they particularly hate it in Latin America, where US global corporate predators have had free reign to loot and rape the natural resources in collusion with fascist elites, with US military/CIA enforcement (death squads like those run by the Iran/Contra murderers--Negroponte et al--assassination of democratic leaders, military coups, heinous dictators).

An extraordinary, peaceful, democratic, leftist (majorityist) revolution has swept through Latin America--while the Bush Junta has been busy looting the U.S. and destroying Iraq to get at its oil--with popular leftist governments elected in Brazil, Argentina, Chile, Uruguay, Venezuela and Bolivia, and strong leftist movements, likely to win elections in Ecuador (soon) and Peru (next cycle). The common themes are justice for the vast poor of Latin America (history of brutalization and exploitation by the rich), national and regional self-determination, anti-U.S. "war on drugs" (war against peasants and leftists) and other interference, and anti-U.S./World Bank/IMF policies (privatization of resources; crippling loans, with onerous terms, such as defunding education and other social programs, and opening your country to resource rape by U.S. and other global corporate predators; the loans are often associated with corruption, the rich steal off the top and toady to U.S. and other interests in exchange).

A good example of the revolution is Argentina, whose economy and society was nearly destroyed by the World Bank/IMF, and the corrupt governments that took the big loans. There was a popular uprising, with the poor and the middle class joining forces and going around with tiny hammers and breaking every bank ATM display window in the country. Three governments later--in quick succession--they finally got a good left/center government which promised to get Argentina out of World Bank debt, and never to get into such debt again. With help from Venezuela, which bought up some of the debt on easy terms, Argentina is now recovering and all indicators are up. Argentina's economy has gotten so strong, in fact, that they are in discussions with Brazil about a regional currency (like the euro--to get off the dollar).

Another example is Bolivia. Bechtel Corp. privatized the water in one Bolivian city and then jacked up the prices to the poorest of the poor, even charging poor peasants for collecting rainwater! Another popular uprising. The Bolivians threw Bechtel out of their country, and elected socialist Evo Morales, the first indigenous president of Bolivia. Morales campaigned with a wreath of coca leaves around this neck (sacred plant of the Andes, essential to survival in the icy cold, thin mountain air), and opposes the US "war on drugs" (highly corrupt militarization of the issue, brutal repression of extremely poor people). He also wants to nationalize Bolivia's large gas reserves. Thousands of Andes Indians came down out of the mountains to perform a special ceremony to honor Morales' inauguration.

It is Evo Morales who has said: "The time of the people has come."

It is remarkable to see pictures of Chavez, Morales and Ollanta Humala (leftist candidate in Peru who came close to winning). All BROWN faces, leaders of their countries. Latin America is MOSTLY brown--yet we are used to seeing white European faces in the news, as presidents and ambassadors. Chavez is mixed indigenous, black and Spanish. Morales is pure 100% Andes Indian, as is Humala. Indigenous indians have been the bottom of the heap of Latin America's previously very unjust societies and economies--the most exploited, the most disregarded and despised. Their hero is the great revolutionary leader Simon Bolivar, who led the revolt against Spain and freed the slaves, and who dreamt of a "United States of South America" (but died too young to realize it). Hugo Chavez presented Simon Bolivar's sword to Evo Morales when he was elected. Chavez and others call their movement the Bolivarian Revolution. Empowerment of the poor (the majority). Regional cooperation and self-determination.

Morales is right ("the time of the people has come"). Justice for the poor. Democracy. Majority rule. Every time it has arisen in Latin America, it has been smashed--by the "land of the free, home of the brave." But THIS revolution feels very different from previous ones. One of its bases has been TRANSPARENT elections--the long hard work of the OAS, the Carter Center, EU election monitoring groups, and local civic groups. Another is peacefulness. It has a spiritual dimension, very akin to Martin Luther King and the civil rights movement (also a product of "the land of the free, home of brave"--our good side).

The Bush Junta wants to impose brutal military power on the beautiful, tolerant, brown-skinned people of the Andes and their democracy movement. And our Corporate cabal lusts to have free reign to steal their oil, gas, mineral reserves, timber and other resources, and to enslave them in sweatshops and mines. The Latin Americans are at last, EFFECTIVELY, and peacefully and democratically resisting. It is a very powerful and, I think, unstoppable movement. However, that doesn't mean that the Junta cannot wreak havoc upon these countries, with more coup attempts, brutalization and interference.

This revolution is also occurring in Mexico (where only massive election fraud could keep it out of power), and in Nicaragua (Ortega getting elected), and had a fitful start in Haiti (which the Bushites destroyed). It covers virtually the whole continent of South America, but there are some remnant dinosaur states, like Columbia and Paraguay. The Bushites have poured military resources into Columbia ($600 million this year alone) in the name of the "war on drugs" (typical Bushite hypocrisy). Paraguay has a very weak government, 'easy pickins' for the Bushites, and Plan Columbia forces are already on the move in Paraguay. US taxpayers have paid for a state-of-the-art US military air base in Paraguay. And Paraguay is where the Bush Cartel is purchasing a 200,000 acre private enclave, more than likely the launching pad for a private corporate war against neighboring democracies (like Bolivia).

Possibly this is where Rumsfeld is headed. They haven't created enough death and destruction and chaos in the Middle East. They now feel they have to "reclaim" Latin America for the Corporate Rulers. But one of the things that most worries me about these developments is that most of the Democrats in the new U.S. Congress are ALSO Corporatists, and are also hogtied to military spending. They are not at all a strong bulwark against U.S. interference in Latin America. They almost all owe their power to the rightwing corporations who now control our elections with TRADE SECRET, PROPRIETARY programming code in all the new electronic voting systems--code so secret that not even our secretaries of state are permitted to review. By this means, and many others, our Corporate Rulers have shaped a U.S. Congress that does not really even come close to reflecting the majority of North Americans--SEVENTY PERCENT of whom oppose Bush's war on Iraq, for instance. The Democrats' opposition to the war has been, at best, tepid. We have a long way yet to go to restore democracy HERE. Many of these Congressional Democrats voted for our taxpayer dollars to be poured into Venezuelan elections, on the side of the rich oil elite (against Chavez), in violation of Venezuelan law! They WANT the corporations and the rich to win. We North American leftists (majorityists) have a bit more say with the Democratic Party leadership, but not much.

It is an issue that we must get on--if we don't want to see another Reagan/Iran-Contra era, with liberal bishops slain on their altars, bodies of raped and murdered nuns on the roadside, teachers and mayors slaughtered for their politics, more coup attempts, torture, and death, and democracy under siege throughout the southern hemisphere.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2609536#2609728

[AtomicKitten]

130. oh, please

Railing against her DLC/centrist core isn't enough anymore is it? Now the propaganda has accelerated and consists of these absurd, outrageous accusations meant to insult and demean and knock her out of the running.

It is embarrassing to read this crap on DU.

[IndianaGreen]

133. Do you support the death squads that we train at Fort Benning?

Bill Clinton refused to close the School of the Americas, aka School of the Assassins. I don't expect Hillary to close it either!

[AtomicKitten]

135. how gracious of you to condemn her for what she MIGHT do or not do

eom

[IndianaGreen]

141. You are the one that is defending Hillary

Or don't you know what you are defending when you take her side?

[AtomicKitten]

144. I defend ANYONE against scurrilous, untruthful, gratuitous attacks.

eom

[IndianaGreen]

151. Welcome to Campaign 2008

You are going to be very unhappy because Hillary is going to catch flak from both flanks!

[AtomicKitten]

153. ain't that the truth?

Which is why I hope she stays in the Senate. I really do. :)

[mtnsnake]

174. I can vouch for that

Unfortunately, since Hillary takes the brunt of the unnecessary un-truths hurled at her, it's almost like she comes off as being our favorite candidate...just by virtue of taking so much time defending her from all the preposterous allegations.

[mtnsnake]

173. Thank goodness some people DO defend her from the hideous lies & BS

that run rampant from the mouths of extremists who are only interested in furthering their very limited far leftist agendas.

[beachmom]

248. Oh, hon, she is SO a weathervane -- see, she figures she'll

somehow get the Dem nomination just from her name, power, and money. See, her support for the war is aimed at the General Election because she thinks she has us in the bag.

And, btw, she's already waffled on torture -- was against it on the Senate floor and then suddenly for it 2 weeks later in the Sun. Guess she wants to make sure she's got the 24 audience's vote.

Kerry, meanwhile, has been CONSISTENT on the Iraq War. Always against. Once we were there, we, you know, needed to put in an Iraqi government, and now we have. So it's time to leave. Geez -- what do you want a liberal Bush -- inflexible and stubborn?

[LittleClarkie]

217. Heh. I would pay money to see that.

But seriously, I rather fear a McCain/Hillary matchup.

[smoogatz]

117. Kerry doesn't even poll particularly well on DU, where he has a small but vocal

band of supporters pushing his every scripted utterance onto the Greatest Page. If I was a betting man, I'd bet that he'd finish in the bottom quartile in the primaries. For me, the chance that he'll have another attack of tassel-loafer-in-mouth disease at a crucial political moment is just too great--he makes a big, easy target for the RW and he seems unable to stop himself before it's too late. I'd honestly have a hard time supporting him even for AG.

[ProSense]

119. What about the people who poll well on DU, but

don't do well in other polls? Any Dem that the RW perceives as a threat or takes the lead will be an easy target!

[smoogatz]

122. Like who?

Not many Dems would be as easy a target as Kerry has repeatedly made himself; the guy just doesn't do well speaking off-the-cuff, day in, day out. Everybody makes mistakes, and that's especially true now that every moment of every campaign can show up on YouTube. But Kerry seems to me to have a particular knack for falling into Republican traps before they even set them. I winced through his campaign in '04, and then there was the whole "stuck in Iraq" gaffe, just to remind us (as if we'd forgotten) that Kerry's brain tends to get out of synch with his mouth just when the Republicans most need a distraction to point to.

[ProSense]

124. There is so much:

http://edition.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/01/06/elec04.s.mo.farmer.clinton.ap

http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/01/17/clinton.plantation

Kerry was talking about Bush, the RW had to distort his statement to make it controversial.

AUSTIN, Texas -- The sheer pleasure of getting lessons in etiquette from Karl Rove and the right-wing media passeth all understanding. Ever since 1994, the Republican Party has gone after Democrats with the frenzy of a foaming mad dog. There was the impeachment of President Bill Clinton, not to mention the trashing of both Clinton and his wife--accused of everything from selling drugs to murder--all orchestrated by that paragon of manners, Tom DeLay.

As far as the polls, you decide:

McLaughlin & Associates (R). Nov. 7, 2006. N=1,000 Nov. 2006 general election voters nationwide.

Preference for Democratic Presidential Nominee:

.......................Democrats ..........Democrats + Independents

Hillary Clinton .........31..........................27
Barack Obama.........19..........................21
Al Gore...................10..........................9
John Kerry...............10..........................8
John Edwards............6..........................7
Joseph Biden.............2..........................2
Bill Richardson...........2..........................2
Evan Bayh................1..........................1
Russ Feingold............1..........................1
Christopher Dodd .......-..........................-
Tom Vilsack ..............-..........................-
Unsure...................18..........................24

http://www.pollingreport.com/WH08dem.htm

[smoogatz]

126. The polling looks pretty bad for JK--

though a national poll is pretty meaningless, since the primaries will be decided by registered Dems in the first three or four states. How does Kerry poll in Iowa these days?

And you're wrong about Kerry's statement, IMO--he said what he said (I listened to it several times), and what he said was that if you didn't do well in school you got stuck in Iraq (slight paraphrase). The implication is obvious, if unintentional. Everyone I talked to (all Dems) said essentially the same thing: for God's sake, someone shut him up! Not a quality most people want in a presidential candidate.

[ProSense]

127. Trying to revive the old RW meme, heh!

No, it was obvious, he was talking about Bush.

[smoogatz]

129. Except that he didn't mention Bush.

Look, I think Kerry's heart's in the right place--I really do. I supported him every way I could think of in '04, both with donations and volunteer work. He's just afflicted with an odd disability--he tends to produce the truly unfortunate turn of phrase at precisely the wrong moment. It's like Tourette's, almost. I've come to find it incredibly hard to watch--and I'm increasingly baffled by hard-core supporters like you, who insist on pretending that he hasn't said all the boneheaded, mis-timed things he's said. It can't be easy trying to come up with plausible covers for Kerry's verbal miscues.

[ProSense]

131. He did mention Bush!

I'm baffled by people who forget that before Kerry got 59 million votes, he won the 2004 primaries. And he still has the largest base of documented supporters!

The many verbal miscues compared to other candidates is your spin!

[AtomicKitten]

134. **

[ProSense]

136. **

:cry:

[AtomicKitten]

137. Facing the reality

of a consistent mediocre standing in the polls equating to no chance at a viable run in 2008 is sad, I realize that, but it's the first step towards moving on with your life.

Current DU polling:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2691401&mesg_id=2691401

Current real world polling:
http://www.pollingreport.com/WH08dem.htm

[ProSense]

138. Speaking of reality:

No chance you would vote for each one:

Hillary Clinton.....45%
Al Gore..............53%

http://edition.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/01/06/elec04.s.mo.farmer.clinton.ap

[AtomicKitten]

140. There's always Obama!!!

eom

[ProSense]

142. Yeah!

Kerry showed pretty good judgment choosing him to speak at the Democratic Convention. Competition is good!

Kerry's still my choice!

[smoogatz]

146. That whole "reporting for duty" thing wasn't so great, though. eom

[smoogatz]

145. I don't see the poll you refer to at that link.

Where is it?

[smoogatz]

143. In the immortal words of Holy Joe: tied for third--

a full 21 points behind Hillary. Ack.

[AtomicKitten]

147. Obama moving up is sure an interesting fly in the ointment for her.

Politics is a full-contact sport!

[smoogatz]

148. Hillary/Obama?

What a kick in the nads that would be for the wingnuts. It's growing on me...

[AtomicKitten]

150. Kinda partial to Gore/Obama myself.

But watching the wingnuts convulse and swallow their tongues at a HRC/Obama candidacy might be fun to watch!!!

[smoogatz]

155. Well said.

But yeah, Gore/whoever works for me, at the moment.

[smoogatz]

139. He did? Where?

Here's what he said, ProSense: "You know, education, if you make the most of it, you study hard, you do your homework and you make an effort to be smart, you can do well. If you don't, you get stuck in Iraq." I don't see Bush's name in there at all. Do you?

Look, I have no particular horse in this race, and nothing to spin. I want the best possible candidate in '08, and I'm not at all sure I know who that person is yet, though at the moment I favor Al Gore, whose positions and priorities strike me as exactly right, pretty much across the board--and who was unequivocally right on Iraq from the get-go. Someone better may yet come along--but I'm pretty sure that someone ain't going to be John Kerry, who ran a thoroughly lackluster campaign in '04 (despite a good showing in the debates), and who still seems unable to express a simple declarative sentence in less than three paragraphs--and even then gets the punchline wrong. He's a good guy, a reasonably smart guy, and a fine Senator. But I'll be very disappointed in my Party if he wins the '08 nomination.

[Nedsdag]

149. But that support was a mile wide and an inch deep

Many voted for Kerry because he wasn't Bush. Now I'm not saying that's the way to vote but unfortunately that's how it went. Many would've voted for Mickey Mouse if he was running against Bush.

[AtomicKitten]

152. word

I have often touted the candidacy of my dog and cat who probably would have fared as well as ABB in 2004.

[ProSense]

154. "Many voted for Kerry because he wasn't Bush."

Not in the primaries!

[smoogatz]

156. Kerry's tall and doesn't scream.

Howard's short, and does, although not the way it sounded, exactly. Kerry seemed electable to the folks out in Iowa, compared to the rest of that field.

[ProSense]

157. Yeah, he won because he's tall! n/t

[smoogatz]

158. Name the last short President.

[TankLV]

211. Yep - I was one of them at first...

Got more "for" him the closer it got to November, but my support was a mile wide and an inch deep.

I still would have voted AGAINST bush* like I did then...

[smoogatz]

169. You know, the intellectual dishonesty here is pretty disturbing.

Links to non-existant polls, denying that Kerry said what he clearly said. I wonder how many of DU's Kerry Kultists are paid Kerry staffers.

[ProSense]

170. Disturbing is believing Kerry won because he's tall! Here, knock yourself out

Read and watch the speech:

http://www.johnkerry.com/news/speeches/speech.html?id=18

http://video.johnkerry.com/video/flash/103006_ca.html


Poll:

http://www.pollingreport.com/2008.htm#misc

[smoogatz]

171. I heard what he said, numerous times. Here's the money quote:

"You know, education, if you make the most of it, you study hard, you do your homework and you make an effort to be smart, you can do well. If you don't, you get stuck in Iraq." I don't see Bush's name in there at all. Do you? No, you don't, because it's not there. Kerry admitted that he screwed the pooch, he apologized and he somehow managed to keep his big yap shut after that until the election was over, thank God. But certain of his "supporters" want to float the "it never happened" trial balloon. Why is that, ProSense?

Thanks for the link to the complete poll--it's hilarious. To no one's surprise Kerry comes in dead last among Dem candidates in the "no chance" category, and 2nd to last overall, trailed only by Newt Gingrich. That hardly seems like a ringing endorsement from the polling sample. Of course, you withheld that little factoid in all of your earlier posts that refer to this poll. And that, my friend, is practically the definition of intellectual dishonesty.

[ProSense]

172. Since you obviously live in a RW echo chamber, this is for you:

November 1, 2006

Statement of Senator John Kerry

As a combat veteran, I want to make it clear to anyone in uniform and to their loved ones: my poorly stated joke at a rally was not about, and never intended to refer to any troop.

I sincerely regret that my words were misinterpreted to wrongly imply anything negative about those in uniform, and I personally apologize to any service member, family member, or American who was offended.

It is clear the Republican Party would rather talk about anything but their failed security policy. I don’t want my verbal slip to be a diversion from the real issues. I will continue to fight for a change of course to provide real security for our country, and a winning strategy for our troops.

link

Now back to reality minus the spin.

[smoogatz]

175. Right. Everyone who has the temerity to point out the obvious--

that Kerry has a gift for the mis-timed malapropism--is living in "a RW echo chamber." That certainly saves you from having to deal with the unfortunate facts about your guy. Now, how do you defend having withheld the poll numbers that indicate Kerry's unpopularity is only slightly less than Newt's?

[ProSense]

178. Speaking of spin,

Republicans win:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2963714&mesg_id=2963714

[smoogatz]

183. Speaking of spin:

ProSense (1000+ posts) Sun Nov-12-06 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #78
80. Newsweek 11-9-06

No chance you would vote for each one:

Hillary Clinton.....45%
Al Gore..............53%

How do you defend this post, that withholds Kerry's own miserable showing (55%!) in the very same poll?

[ProSense]

185. I don't have to because

it's pretty obvious they're all miserable and irrelevant! But feel free to believe!

[smoogatz]

186. Oh, I get it. Your intellectual dishonesty is just fine if it serves

your candidate. And anyone who calls you on your bullshit is living in a RW echo chamber. That about right, ProSense?

[ProSense]

187. Seriously, after the tall thing, you want to talk about "intellectual dishonesty"

Lose the labels, stick to finding a short candidate! You're either clueless, in spin mode or, um, "intellectually dishonest."

And what's up with the Gestapo tactic: "That about right, ProSense?"

You're beginning to appear desperate!

[smoogatz]

188. Name the last short President.

Here, I'll do it for you: the last President under 5'9" was Teddy Roosevelt, in 1900.

Using your screen name is a Gestapo tactic? I guess you're not aware of the unwritten debate rule that says whoever is first to compare his opponent to the Nazis loses.

And still no defense of your intellectually dishonest pro-Kerry propaganda, I see. Not that there really IS a good defense for it.

Another question: are you or are you not a paid Kerry staffer? I'm genuinely curious.

[smoogatz]

191. Your silence is telling.

C'mon, out with it--are you a Kerry staffer or not? I won't respect you any less in the morning.

[ProSense]

193. LOL!

I know it must be killing you that information about Senator Kerry can be found by anyone with access to Yahoo, Google, and Kerry's blog and Senate sites, but the compliment is duly noted!

[smoogatz]

194. That's no answer.

Yes or no? Are you a paid Kerry staffer or not?

[ProSense]

196. Ok, you've backed me into a corner:

No!

:rofl:

[smoogatz]

197. Was that so hard?

Apparently it was. Do I believe you? Let's say I'm reserving judgment. If you're not getting paid, you're working awfully hard to prop up a dead and visibly decomposing candidate for free.

[ProSense]

198. If you say so! Seems you're toiling awfully hard

in denial!

http://thinkprogress.org/2006/11/13/pace-terrorism

[smoogatz]

199. Full disclosure:

I'm getting paid to grade papers while I post here. Terrible, ain't it?

[mtnsnake]

176. Amen to that

He said what he said and no matter how he intended it, it came off like a lead balloon. I love the way his loyalists tried to spin what his intentions were after his so-called blunder, lol. Thank god they put a muzzle on him for the remaining few days of the campaign. The man is inept on national stage.

Heck, we even had people here who were rattling off for days how Kerry used that same joke a hundred times before, but just happened to botch it that day. They were spouting that nonsense as if it were fact, when the reality is that Kerry NEVER had used that same joke before in any other speech.

[saracat]

195. Yes he had but nevermind .Everyone else can mispeak. Howard Dean is famous for it

but only Kerry is attacked by his own? Yet noone has done more to support other candidates than Kerry. It must be he is a threat for some to make such a big issue of any thing he says and yet defend the rights of others to mis speak.

[NYCGirl]

222. Howard Dean is not considering running for president. NT

[mtnsnake]

120. "tassel-loafer-in-mouth disease"

:rofl:

[beachmom]

249. One mistake, magnified in the media, in 2 years, and you come

out that he can't even be AG. Just unbelieveable how mesmerized you've become by the media. I guess you also think that Nancy Pelosi is finished as a Speaker because Murtha didn't get the majority leader position. I mean that's what they're SAYING so it must be true.

[politicasista]

121. Nice post

Looks like the 08 primaries have already started. Another postive Kerry thread turned into a flamewar Go Figure.

[Unbowed]

163. Impressive list there!

Thanks Senator Kerry! You're aces in my book.

Nobody listens to the spin anymore. It's like the old saying: "Believe none of what you hear and only half of what you see."

[_dynamicdems]

166. Nice list you have compiled there!

Too bad the dogs are going to come by and lift a leg to it. I guess it would be too much to expect a word of thanks from the "perfect" people. I can only assume that those for whom this list is not impressive enough are not satisfied because they hold Senator Kerry to the standards of perfection that they themselves typify. How nice it must be to walk on water!

As one of coalition of the imperfect, I recognize and applaud Senator Kerry's remarkable work.

Bravo Senator! You may not be perfect, but you come pretty, damn close!

[leesa]

180. I don't have any strong feelings against Kerry, but there sure seem to be

a lot of people out there who do. Real gut feelings of dislike. I was amazed at the crowds he drew at the end of his campaigning last time though. He would get a lot of sliming.

[trogdor]

181. None of this is relevant.

When you've been shot and killed, it doesn't matter if you were hit in the back or in the face. You're still dead. I have absolutely no appetite whatsoever for a redux of 2004, especially given that the playbook on JK has already been written and field-tested.

[Tom Rinaldo]

182. As our 2004 nominee, Kerry had resources no one else could match

But I have nothing but praise for how Kerry used them, and that is the bottom line for me. It doesn't surprise me that Kerry was able to generate massive amounts of money through appeals to his email list. That list was mostly compiled with the blood seat and tears of everyone who pulled together behind John Kerry as the Democratic candidate for President in 2004. That list is a unique resource that John Kerry largely inherited from the 2004 campaign that no other Democrat is gifted with. As a result, the important thing to me is not that Kerry raised more money for Democrats for the midterms than other Democrats did, it was his dedication to doing everything he could with the resources he had for Democrats for the midterms. John Kerry earned an A+ for effort from me, and that is more impressive to me than the dollar totals.

[TankLV]

200. Kerry IS finished as serious presidential consideration...at least in THIS time frame...

The whole country thinks so...

Some of his ardent supporters here might think otherwise, but it doesn't change the reality...

Now, then again, there was Nixon...

But I prefer to think of Gore as relevant to Nixon.

Of course there was Cleveland - who won one, then lost the next one, and won again the time after that...

2 years is a long way off...

[LittleClarkie]

230. Isn't that a bit of hyperbole

Or have you been in contact with the whole country?

At the least, I know some folks who kinda felt sorry for him, thinking he didn't deserve to get whomped on by the media and the GOP.

[survivor999]

214. HIGHLY JAGGED THREADS ARE PROBLEMATIC

Funny, when you see a saw-like thread, you know it's a problematic one...

[hijinx87]

229. kerry threads in general . . .

seem to be quickly achieving critical mass these days . . .

[against all enemies]

221. Is this a joke? No more Kerry for President shit please.

[LittleClarkie]

223. Just did a find, and the word "president" doesn't appear in the OP

Where did you see it?

Guess what. If he announced tomorrow that he was not running, I bet you'd still see "Kerry shit" on the board. We just sorta like the big lug, ya know?

[ProSense]

225. I'm not laughing! n/t

[against all enemies]

233. I wasn't laughing last week either. When his "joke" about a war

went terribly wrong. Of all people he should have known better. The guy can still do some good , running for the Presidency isn't one of them.

[LittleClarkie]

234. May the media be there the next time you accidentally drop a pronoun

And I maintain it could have been anyone the Repubs felt like trying to crush. He still did quite alot to get the Dem majority we now have. He worked his ass off.

[cadmium]

240. Are you censoring us?

[LittleClarkie]

241. Not unless he has a delete button we don't know about

People can say what they want, and people can in turn do what they want to spite it.

[Le Taz Hot]

231. Yeah, we get it

Pro-Sense wants Kerry for president. We have 20,563 threads saying so. Give it a rest, already. The guy's dead politically. Move on.

[ProSense]

232. Who does Le Taz Hot want to be president? n/t

[Le Taz Hot]

236. Certainly none of the DLC sure losers

that are being offered up to date. Gore's about the only one I'll go for.

[wisteria]

237. Kerry has no real baggage other than what is made up and used

to discredit him with. I think he would be a fine President and he certainly deserves another shot at it. Honestly, I do not want to see hillary get anywhere and I can think of no one else other than Kerry who is strong enough experiece and intelligence wise,to take her on. He may even be able to match her money wise.

[flpoljunkie]

250. Great point re JK & HRC! And about the botched joke, even National Journal's Hotline defended Kerry.

Do Republicans really believe that Kerry wasn't talking about Pres. Bush? (We believe that Kerry was referring to Bush because he's used a similar formulation in our presence before and quite clearly meant to call Bush a dummy.)

http://hotlineblog.nationaljournal.com/archives/2006/10/bush_slams_kerr_1.html

[Vektor]

238. Wow! Spin-free fact, with not one injected opinion...

..of your own.

Not that your opinions aren't welcome, but what a strong statement the cold, hard facts make all on their own.

Thanks for this great itemized list of the Senator's contributions to the campaigns of other Democrats. Nice to see a member of the party actually standing up for the party.

[talk hard]

243. all this Kerry for president talk is spin

and Dem Underground's baggage

[LittleClarkie]

245. Once again, the OP never mentions the word president, and most of us in the Kerry group agree

that even if he decides not to run for president, we will still support him and post his doings and such. That's not the point.

So it's not all about 2008. It's about a guy we admire. We're not that much different from the Gore folks, or the Dean folks, or the Clark folks, or what have you.

Hope ya'll didn't think you'd be rid of us if he didn't run.

Meanwhile, I'm not even completely sure what you're getting at here. How could talk about someone being president be DU's "baggage" and how exactly do you mean it's spin? It's from a point of view, sure. But to dismiss our point of view as spin isn't right. We make our case for the guy, and people are free to agree or disagree. But to dismiss outright isn't cool.