Throwing down the gaunlet; examples from history where decreased immigration raises wages!!!!

[inthebrain]

That's right.

I'm throwing down the gauntlet. This board seems to have it's share of immigration hawks. Now is your chance to prove that reduced immigration raises wages and creates jobs.

That's right, you claim a tighter boarder will reduce the problem; How?

How does less people = more jobs?

How does less people = Higher wages?

How does less people = increased Union Power?

Also, in doing this, please provide proof of cause and effect. Lazy arguments are not allowed here. We have folks here claiming that because the folks making these arguments are affiliated with racists (Some are racists themselves) I want to see one economical policy from those folks that has worked.

Good luck.

(BTW; Keep in mind that partaking in this will probably cause many of you to damn your grandparents names. You enter the discussion at your own risk.)

[inthebrain]

1. This thread has been up here for twenty minutes

I find it funny how these closed boarder folk can't prove to me how their plan works. Not even a single example from history?

I constantly read and am told that illegals are the problem and we need to tighten our borders to raise living standards. Not one of the Dobbs lovers can offer me an example.

Remeber, when proposing an idea, it's up to you to prove that it works. That's where the burden of proof lies.

The shame.

[inthebrain]

2. Eighty Views and still no takers

It's been half an hour.

[madmunchie]

3. I won't engage further, but, your question is wrong.

It is when there are jobs with set or accepted wages and an influx of people come in offering to do the job at a cheaper rate. That is when wages start to suffer. Not the way that you phrased it. Its supply and demand. When workers are scarce, the very least is that their wages are stable if not increased. When there are more workers than there are positions, the wages can start to fall and have fallen. Outsourcing has proven that. Jobs exported to countries that pay their people cheaper wages. Illegal Immigration is just like Outsourcing, but it works in reverse. We import the cheap workers to control the wages for the job.

[inthebrain]

4. There is nothing wrong with the question

How does our immigration rates today compare to that of the 30's, 40's and 50's?

Folks claiming that reducing immigration works can not provide on example from history that this plan works. It's rather obvious that this is scapegoating.

The exporting of jobs is one defining characteristic of our falling wages. It doesn't tell the whole story though. This problem didn't start with NAFTA.

[silverojo]

5. Here's why I'm not getting into such a debate

1) Being that you're not God, I have no obligation to defend my views to you or anyone else. If you're for open borders, fine. It's your right to hold that view, and I respect that. I happen to disagree strongly, and I have the right to hold that view with or without your permission. Nor do I need to justify my position to you in a thread, or anywhere else.

2) The Democrats have more important things to worry about right now, or haven't you heard of our disastrous economy and Bush's disastrous war?

3) If you really want answers to your questions, don't be lazy--start Googling. Or maybe try visiting a border state and see what's really happening at the border for yourself.

4) It hasn't even been a week since the election, and it sucks that you're trying to pee on our parade by starting an argument during a time when we're celebrating.

5) ¡Viva La Migra!

[inthebrain]

6. I'm not bcking off

There is a lot of laztness on this issue and the snake oil salesmen have come out of the woodwork.

If reducing immigration improves the economy all I have asked for is proof that it works. A historical example will suffice.

Folks that are clamoring for this can not offer one simple example of how this is going to work. They religiously thump it. It is not up to me to prove that it doesn't work, it's up the immigration hawks to prove that it does work.

No one has taken the shot.

[inthebrain]

7. ?

[Bridget Burke]

10. Instructions to Google or visit a border state aren't very persuasive.

Especially since I live in Texas.

Where are you?

[ItNerd4life]

8. It's actually quite simple, but you have to understand supply and demand

First, let me ask you the exact opposite question. Are you for outsourcing jobs to lower wage paying countries like China? If you oppose outsourcing, then you are in opposition to your own argument.

Supply vs. demand
if there is 1 person and 2 jobs available, the person can pit the 2 jobs against each other and demand higher wages.

if there are 5 people and 2 jobs available, the 2 jobs can pit the 5 people against each other and pay lower wages.

Off shore sourcing:
If a business can pay a worker in China $.10 an hour or pay an American work $10 an hour, they will go to China and pay 5 people to do the work of 1 American and still come out ahead. However, that 1 American worker no longer has a job. See Supply vs. Demand above.

There is a reason why Unions are against Illegal immigration and outsourcing of American Jobs.

Nobody is against controlled/regulated immigration. It's the uncontrolled illegal immigration that is the problem. Just as an uncontrolled free marketplace is a problem.

[inthebrain]

13. Doesnt matter

Outsourcing exists because workers are between a rock and a hard place. Folks who are doing the work that three people did 20 years ago have no option to strike. When they do, the employers fire them later on.

It's not about too many people and so few jobs. Its people doing work that three people used to do.

Illegals are not responsible for that. Unions are not against the immigrants themselves. Unions are against the status of "illegal immigrant". Anyone who comes to our shores to work are entitled to a living wage. Immigration status is a seperate issue.

It's the corporations that want you to conflate the two.

[Odin2005]

9. fewer people = higher demand for labor = lower unemployment and higher wages.

The Corporatists need to make sure there is allways a surplus of labor so there is unemployment, workers would have true bargining power if there was full employment.

[ItNerd4life]

12. Well said. Another good way

of communicating the idea of what I said earlier. :toast:

[inthebrain]

14. Fewer people also means fewer consumers

Hence less demand for labor.

Either way, your argument is the corporatist argument. Strengthening the boarder only makes it wasier for corporation to exploit labor on the other side. Those that believe in the free market only believe in it for capital (Corporations). Lets not allow labor the same rights.

[ItNerd4life]

17. Um. You have it backwards

Your's is the corporate argument. Why do you think corporations want more illegal immigrants? Why do you think Bush like's illegals immigrants coming from Mexico? It's lower cost labor. Please look up Supply vs. Demand before agreeing with the corporations.

[inthebrain]

18. No it's not

Try this?

What are our Immigration rates today vs 40 years ago? How about thirty years ago?

Add the total legal immigrants and illegal immigrants.

Bush like illegal immigrants because economicly it creates an under class. We know that. Yet, this underclass is not primarly responsible for why folks have it so bad. They are merely a scapegoat for the real problem.

The Unions themselves have recognized this.

Understand this, corporations want an enforced border policy. It makes it easier for them to exploit labor on the other side and for corporations to move their. Opening up that boarder forces those corporations to compete with our minumum wage.

Don't you think that applying that wage to everyone that works here is the answer?

How about allowing Unions to enlist labor from the otherside of that border?

The problem with NAFTA and the glabalization movement is that it only gives corporations rights. Labor gets the shaft as they are not allowed free movment and the right to organize.

[Greyhound]

11. As far as I know big business has always ruled this country and therefore,

it has never been tried.

Perhaps you can explain how it is that your side of this issue is making the same argument that the robber barron's made? They were great advocates of a limitless supply of cheap labor.

[inthebrain]

15. The robber barrons were famous for using borders to their advantage

Globalization and strengthening borders is the same thing.

[inthebrain]

20. BTW; The challenge here is simple

Prove that tightening borders and that illegals are the problem. Also how reducing immigration has worked.

Its that simple.

So far everyone here gets an F.

[Coexist]

16. what's a tighter boarder?

and does that come with a room?

[spinbaby]

19. It's when your boarders take up drinking

Room, board, and alcohol, I suppose.