The hypocrisy and double standard on the DU is disappointing

[BluegrassDem]

There's a lot of hypocrisy on the DU. DU'ers lambasted candidates that supported the Iraq War Resolution. Actually, that's why many here don't like Hillary. But yet, many DU'ers fall down at the knees to people like Feingold and Kucinich cause they voted against it.

Well, isn't it funny that Obama was opposed to the Iraq War from the beginning, even when it wasn't popular to do so...but yet, it doesn't seem to matter cause he's 'not experienced enough.' The man had good judgment to know that the war was wrong, even when our politicians were supporting it. But Obama gets NO credit on the DU for his stance.

How come a man with supposed little experience, is smart enough to figure out that Iraq would be a mess and not worth going into? How come our more experienced politicians like Kerry, Clinton, Edwards, etc. didn't see what Obama saw? This is why I'm so sick of all this talk about him not being experienced enough!! The man makes good decisions and judgments. That's the most important part of being a president...not how many votes you cast!

I don't care if Obama runs for president or not, but the double standard that he receives on DU, is tantamount to prejudice IMO. If Obama were white, there wouldn't be enough bandwidth on this site to handle all the Obama supporters.

[civildisoBDence]

1. WTF????? n/t

[adamuu]

4. i'd alert it if i could make any sense of it n/t

[BikeWriter]

112. Hey, I'm with you.

[Bonobo]

2. No offense, but that racism charge is BS.

[Sherman A1]

3. Okay , you are entitled to your opinion

I disagree, but whatever seems to work for you.

[BluegrassDem]

8. A lot of progressives on this site support people like...

Feingold primarily cause they voted against the IWR. But yet, Obama has opposed the war from the beginning, just like Gore. Even Clark said he would've voted for the IWR if he were in Congress. It's just amazing to me how people give the man NO credit on here for his position, but yet, say he's not experienced enough.

[Clark2008]

44. Actually, Clark said he MIGHT vote for a resolution, but not THAT

resolution...

Carry on..

[primative1]

109. My #1 Issue is ..

Now and always will be economic justice.
In this day and age that comes down to how one feels about corporate pandering and free- fair trade.
You either with us or against us and if you have a fuzzy unclear message than you are a politician and not a leader and should get off the floor. Your 2 minutes are up.

[beaconess]

5. You're very brave. And you're very right.

I, too, have been extremely disappointed with what I've seen revealed here among some posters. Between the rabidly hateful "Lou Dobbs is great because he hates those illegals as much as I do" and the sanctimonious, paternalistic concern that "America isn't ready for a Black president" {who in the hell is this "America" anyway and why do these people feel qualified to speak for it?}, among other things, some folks here have been showing their true colors. And they ain't pretty.

Apparently, the Democratic "big tent" is even bigger than I thought it was . . .

[Bonobo]

40. You're right, posting wild charges anonymously is proof of bravery!

[madmunchie]

64. Sorry, Obama may be brilliant and he may have known what I knew,

that going into Iraq was a mistake- more than most of our dumbass Senators admitted to. I'm not qualified to be POTUS, just because I knew going into Iraq was opening Pandora's box and most of my judgment is better than alot of the slugs in Washington. Obamma needs to put the brakes on and wait until at least 2012 or maybe look at the VP role.

I just don't get why 1 term Senators like the "Bylcreme boy" and Obama think that they have enough experience, wisdom and expertise to be the frickin' leader of the Free World. That screams of too much ambition and ego, which in itself is a red flag.

Today it seems like too much importance is place on "charisma" and not enough importance is placed on qualifications, experience, wisdom... I just shake my head when I think of Abrahm Lincoln and Truman - - with their obvious lack of Charisma, who would have been elected? Look at history's great POTUS, how many of them had oodles of Charisma, how much experience in Government did they have?Remember Hitler had Charisma and so did Jim Jones....look what they turned out to be. Castro is said to be Charismatic....

These new guys need to prove who they really are and not just who we think that they might be. AND we need to be a little bit more choosy about who we throw our support behind. How about making a list of what you think the qualifications for the POTUS should be, and then see which possible candidate best fits those qualifications. Maybe while you are at it, Look at the job description for the POTUS, then make up that list. Then look at the candidate.

[redqueen]

74. Agree - too much emphasis on charisma.

Smacks of the eagerness too many have to buy into cults of personality.

Tragic, really.

[athena]

86. If you want to know who Obama really is, there is plenty of information available.

Read his book, Dreams from my Father. He wrote that before we went into politics, and in it, he says more about himself and his views than you will ever find out about any politician. It's a remarkable book, really, especially considering how open he is about things other politicians wouldn't approach with a ten-foot pole.

[Telly Savalas]

88. The POTUS is not the leader of the "free world"

A few countries like Canada and the UK have prime ministers who have their heads inserted in Bush's ass, but other than that the President has no authority outside the borders of the U.S. or any country which is under the military occupation of the U.S.

If the ambition and ego of a one-term Senator wanting to be president is a red flag, then why isn't it for a two-term governor of some tiny state?

[SouthernBelle82]

116. I agree

Even Lincoln was not great. I also agree we need to be more choosy. I don't want someone who insults my intelligence and treats me like I'm stupid and I can't stand this "oh I want to have a beer with him" nonsense. I want a guy who knows what he's doing and is intelligent and thoughtful and doesn't tell me things I want to hear but what I need to hear.

[Pithy Cherub]

6. Whoopeee for Obama,

I am Black and won't be supporting him as my first, second or third choice.

You really are going to need to toughen up because this is really only light bumping at this juncture. Keep saying why you like Obama and get people interested in him for his sake. Comparing and contrasting is part of the political structure and if Obama can't take it, then he can't be a future president. Obama has speeches and no actions that say president yet - but you have every opportunity to keep showing when he does and applauding it! Keep your chin up - it's only just begun...

[BluegrassDem]

12. Obama made it clear that he would've voted AGAINST IWR

He was never wishy-washy. He didn't flip-flop. I like Wes Clark, but he butchered his response to the same question saying that he would've voted for IWR if he were in Congress. Obama stood up against the war when other Dems were scared. But yet, people say that he doesn't stand for anything?

[Erika]

21. Wes Clark is a military man. Don't accuse him of being

scared to say no to anything.

Hey, contact Obama, get to volunteering for him. I don't think he'll let you spout out hateful comments against other dems.

[Pithy Cherub]

22. Obama is a complete neophyte

that has already had his ass kicked by John McCain this year and Lieberman rescued Obama. Tweety and McCain LAUGHED about Obama on Hardball, that was instructive. Obama did the keep you powder dry thing during that episode which shows dude is not ready for prime time. Wes Clark has led a war, Obama has led a playground. Wes Clark has Senate testimony demonstrating a clear grasp of foreign policy and a demonstrated experitse with national security. Obama has a passport and great pictures from Africa. Does not a president make.

Obama is young with a brilliant career ahead of him. Yes, he came out against the war. In early January 2005 where was he when all of the people of color were disenfranchised by Bush league tactics in ohio. Obama made a one of his patented speeches on the senate floor, but the one who came through was a tiny Jewish lady, my senator, from california, Barbara Boxer. Obama then voted to confirm - that's wasn't leadership - especially when every vote must count. Just sayin'...

[Island Blue]

7. Obama wasn't elected to the US Senate until 2004.

Just sayin'.

[rucky]

14. 'xactly. n/t

[KoKo]

107. REPEAT! OBAMA WASN'T ELECTED TO SENATE UNTIL 2004! n/t

[Viva_La_Revolution]

9. bull

has nothing to do with his stance on the war, let alone his color. (may I add... WTF?)

It has to do with the fact that he is a Freshman and needs more experience before he is a real contender.

[BluegrassDem]

18. Like Durbin said...how does casting more votes make your more experienced?

If you can make sound and reasoned judgments, that's 90% of the job of being president. There's a lot of experienced politicians that don't make sound decisions, like Kerry. Obama has demonstrated his judgment capabilities and has passed with flying colors so far.

I'm not saying Obama would win the presidency, but he is fully capable of being president of this country. Obama knows his shit.

[Erika]

26. Obama would not like you putting down other dems

Go volunteer. Now. Obama needs seasoning.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

31. bull x2

DC is a world unto it's own... you have to be there for a while to learn the ropes.

A pres. who can not play the belt-way game is ineffective, at best.

[Lucky Luciano]

47. You sound like a young kid in college (or younger?)

Experience is crucial...when I finished my math PhD, I thought I was hot shit and applied to the highest paying jobs...well, I eventually got a good job, but it took a year of brutal competitiveness to get in - I thought I would get the job by default - not so. I thought that because I would be viewed as hyperintelligent with the math PhD that I could start out higher and get placed at the front of the line...well, it actually got me placed at the middle of the line witha chance to bump to the front if I proved myself worthy.

I still had no experience and was effectively useless which made it tough to get in at all...I have now been at this job for 15 months and I am only just barely useful now...I finally implemented a strategy last week that might prove very good for me and the rest of our desk (fingers crossed)....I certainly need more time before I am incredibly useful.

I am humbled, but still charting a course full speed ahead...Obama is doing the same...let him grow. He will be great.

[Rose Siding]

10. That's not hypocrisy. It's being able to walk and chew gum.

It's entirely possible to be critical of someone and still admire them.

[John Gauger]

11. I don't think Obama needs more experience.

I don't support him as a candidate because I know absolutely nothing about him. I don't care if he has zero years in the Senate - I don't think that being in the Senate is a requisite for being President. In fact, most Presidents never served in the Senate. To say that Obama needs more experience is ludicrous. Way is it necessary to have any Senate experience at all? I condemn all those who voted for the IWR and I laud all those who did not. It does not take experience to see that such a war will be a mistake. It just takes half a brain.

By the way, Obama _is_ white. His mother was white, therefore he is also white.

[FrenchieCat]

68. Oh wow....then I am White! Lordie........what will I tell my Black children

who thought all along their mother was Black; that I have been passing?

Get the fuck out! We ain't talking about being Jewish here! When one of your parent is Black, you are as well. Used to be 1/32 part made you Black in this country till less than 20 years ago (certainly when I was growing up). "Biracial" was an invented category (most likely to "delute" the Black census count)in the late 80s. So we Black folks with White mamas still consider ourselves Black if one is from the old school...which it appears Obama is, as I!

[John Gauger]

90. I didn't say he wasn't black,

I just said that he is also white. Think about it: if having a black parent makes one black, then having a white parent must also make one white. He has a white parent and a black parent, therefore he is both black and white. Race is an artificial distinction anyway, for just that reason; how should a person be classified if he or she has parents of different races? The whole thing breaks down. What precisely what makes an individual a member of a specific race anyway? Black skin? No, two races (negroid and australoid) have black skin. Epithelial membrane? No, three races exhibit the fold of skin over the eye (mongoloid, caucasoid, and negroid.) And what of the Native Americans? They don't fit into any of the four categories. Nor do Arabs or other "Middle Eastern" groups. I don't choose to classify people so, but if we are going to call someone black or white, then surely it must be possible to be more than one of these groups. And I understand that there may be some bigotry involved in DUers' lack of support for Obama. I find often that I am being bigoted without even realizing it. I was simply correcting the statement that he was not white.

[FrenchieCat]

95. Well I'm exactly mixed like Obama.....and I ain't White!

He considers himself Black, and I believe that this is excellent!

Just about all Black folks have something else running through their veins. Harold Ford is Black but neither of his parents are fully 100% Black (as evidenced by his green eyes and his fair complexion).......so it would be weird, wouldn't it, if all of the sudden all Black folks started identifying with something other than being Black...... talking about what else they are.

You have to understand that it is easy for someone of Mixed race to start thinking that they are something "other" than Black. In fact, this society has encouraged division and attempts to put out the message that one should "want" to be anything but Black....cause being Black ain't supposed to be a good thing.

So I will say it; I'm Black, and I'm proud! No correctin' needed.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

114. Do you think that cuts both ways?

Would you say that someone with one black and one parent who chose to say "I'm white and I'm proud" needed "correctin'"?

[FrenchieCat]

125. Guess folks can define themselves as they would like,

and proclaim what they would like......which is what Obama did (as he was the subject).....and I believe that he doesn't need correctin' which is what poster did as to what he (Obama) considers himself to be in terms of his race.

Frankly, I'm now suggesting that we kind of leave this conversation as it is....just out of respect, if no other reason.... because I'm not sure how useful it is for folks to continue to question on how folks just like me should define themselves. I just don't think that it's anyone else's call. period.

[Donnachaidh]

13. oh BULLSHIT!

there is alot of spirited discussions here about potential candidates. And alot of people get thwapped about their beliefs in different candidates. That's called DEMOCRACY.

But calling people prejudiced because they don't like your favorite is flat out juvenile.

[Redstone]

15. Oh, horseshit. Is THAT clear enough for you?

Redstone

[BluegrassDem]

24. I still want to know how come Obama gets no credit

on here for his stand against the war? I'm on this site many times a day and see all the other progressives getting praised and lauded for their votes against IWR, but no mention of Obama? Gore gets praised, Feingold gets praised, Dean gets praised, but Obama is just not even mentioned. That's really sad.

[Redstone]

25. Seems to me he gets plenty of "credit" on DU. Thus, the "horseshit" comment.

Redstone

[Erika]

30. This whole thread has been a credit to Obama

Now, go volunteer for him. He can teach a lot about manners,being positive, and downright class.

[SouthernBelle82]

117. You want to know the difference?

Those men were vocal when it counted. Obama I don't recall being very vocal. Now if he was vocal and did anti-war speeches and things like that than perhaps he'd get more praise. Plus as someone else already mentioned Obama wasn't there so it's kind of easy to be against something if you're name isn't on the "For" list.

[Erika]

16. Obama has rock star charisma and I think he's great!

But I think of my young neice that way also.

Obama needs more seasoning and experience. He is eventually going to be a great leader in the party, I believe.

[arcane1]

17. Feingold and Kucinich have experience

try again :eyes:

[madmunchie]

66. GUESS WHAT? Experience means NOTHING to too many people!

[beaconess]

85. It's interesting that some of the same people who denigrate "Congresscritters"

and "career politicians" now insist that a person isn't fit for the presidency unless he has devoted his career to being a Washington politician.

[madmunchie]

87. How about there being a difference as in a Senator who has

been in the Senate in the SAME JOB for several terms and how about a Senator with no other political experience except for 1 term or less served wants to be the POTUS. I believe that POTUS has a little more challenge to it than 4 - 6 years in the Federal Government PERIOD. You can't be a Doctor until you go to school for 10-12 years, you can't get a PHD without proper schooling, you can't be a 5 Star General without going up the ladder from the bottom rung. Why do people think that POTUS is such an easy job that virtually no qualificiatins needed ...except for Charisma and Intelligence?

[beaconess]

93. By 2008, Obama will have spent 11 years in government

7 years in the State Senate and 3+ years in the U.S. Senate. Not much less than JFK (14), Bill Clinton (14) and more than Bobby Kennedy (7), Ronald Reagan (8), Jimmy Carter (4), John Edwards (6) and Hillary Clinton (8 years, not counting her time as First Lady).

FDR had 11 years of government service - approximately the same number of years that Obama will have had by 2008 (NY State Senator 1910-1912, Secretary of the Navy 1912-1917, Governor of NY 1928-1932). George H.W. Bush spent more than 17 years in federal government (U.S. Congressman 1966-1970, UN Ambassador 1971-1973, Ambassador to China 1974-1976, CIA Director 1976-1977, Vice President 1981-1989).

Which was the better President?

[bling bling]

100. Wrong.

Obama doesn't have "no other political experience except for 1 term or less served."

Google him if you don't believe me.

Please.....Google him. I'm so tired of people posting incorrect, unfactual, inaccurate information about our Democrats on this site. It's becoming a goddamn joke. You can't believe 95% of the information here and the sad thing is that most of it is NEGATIVE LIES about our own people. Just frustrating and sad.

[More Than A Feeling]

19. Well, by 2008 he'll have precisely as much senate experience

as John Edwards did when he ran for president. If I recall correctly, Edwards received similar questions about his lack of experience.

As for the Iraq War, Obama deserves praise for standing against. It is also true that he wasn't serving in federal office at the time, so he didn't have to vote on the war. Kucinich and Feingold did.

I'm trying to keep an open mind on all the candidates, Obama among them. If you want to make your case for him, then make it. Accusing people of being racist if they have a requirement for more time served in politics (regardless of stance on the war) in order to gain their support is not likely to convince anybody to take up Obama's cause.

[bluethruandthru]

36. I think people put a little too much emphasis on experience.

We (as a country) seem to think that you some how work your way up to being president. It does tend to happen that way..unfortunately. That's what got us George Bush the first! Our founding fathers really didn't want professional politicians.
I really think that one of the best attributes for a great president is to be able to inspire and lead. I don't think it matters all that much if you're a foreign policy expert. We need an intelligent, thoughtful president who can choose thoughtful, intelligent people to work with him or her. But, especially at this point in time, we need someone who will make us believe that we're a great country that can use it's power and influence for good.
I'm not sure who I'll be supporting in '08...but, right now, Obama feels very inspirational.

[More Than A Feeling]

43. Maybe we think that, because that is traditionally how it has been done

You talk of the founding fathers, but think of all the different offices they held before they became president. It's always been governors, generals, and vice-presidents, with the rare senator thrown in.

[loyalsister]

102. Or maybe

we value professionsal experience too much.

Obama spent time working as the director of Developing Communities Project in Chicago.

I don't know what people want when they are thinking of a president.
But the necessary skills I see coming from that are
leader
negotiator- bridge builder
broad minded problem solving
etc...
I see those as skills I would hope to have in a president.

He's a new kind of populist.....

In return, organizing teaches as nothing else does the beauty and strength of everyday people. Through the songs of the church and the talk on the stoops, through the hundreds of individual stories of coming up from the South and finding any job that would pay, of raising families on threadbare budgets, of losing some children to drugs and watching others earn degrees and land jobs their parents could never aspire to — it is through these stories and songs of dashed hopes and powers of endurance, of ugliness and strife, subtlety and laughter, that organizers can shape a sense of community not only for others, but for themselves.

http://civic.uis.edu/Alinsky/AlinskyObamaChapter1990.htm

[madmunchie]

67. If you really want credibility, don't use Edwards as an example

because that will get you the opposite effect.

[More Than A Feeling]

72. I'm afraid I need that spelled out a bit further

Why is Edwards a bad comparison? Didn't he get questions about his lack of experience when he ran the first time?
Is it that Edwards is running again, and you think he isn't getting questions about lack of experience? How do you know that the same people who had reservations about that the last time don't still have those reservations?

I'm not sure why my credibility is damaged by pointing out any of the things I pointed out. As I noted, I'm open to supporting Obama, as open as I am to Edwards, or any of our other candidates. I'm unaffiliated now that my candidate (Feingold) is out. Supporters of other candidates have to make their case, and I have to do more research on my own. I don't believe I have a double standard that disadvantages Obama.

[comsymp]

73. Actually, no he won't -

Edwards was in his sixth year when he ran (term was 98-04), Obama will be in his 4th.

Just sayin'

[More Than A Feeling]

80. Noted, but the point still stands.

[beaconess]

82. In 2008, Obama will have held elected office for more than 10 years

In 2004, Edwards had been in public life for less than 6.

[snowbear]

20. Bluegrass.. you've been around DU long enough to know that no one here is a racist !!!

With the amount of people who have registered and logged on at some time or another.. there's no telling how many times we encounter an incognito, undercover Freepnoid here.

Betcha anything it happens continuously.

But c'mon!! You surely know better than to think that DU'ers are racists!

[BluegrassDem]

29. Larissa, that's true!

I didn't use the word racist, but I'm not idealistic enough to know that people don't have prejudices. We all do to some small extent. I think many on here are gravitated towards people like Dean, Feingold, Gore, Kucinich and praising them for their stands against the war, but Obama was against it too, but is not even mentioned. Many people even call him conservative on here!

It's true that Obama wasn't a federal office holder, but neither was Gore and neither was Dean. They both opposed the war and were lauded on this website. Obama was making the same speeches at the same time, but gets zero credit for his foresight and judgment, even though people say he's inexperienced.

[snowbear]

35. Well...

This was close enuf' to calling us racists..

"the double standard that he receives on DU, is tantamount to prejudice IMO. If Obama were white, there wouldn't be enough bandwidth on this site to handle all the Obama supporters"

I'd love to see him run!

Anyhoo.. I hope we can just forget about this post! You've always been a good DU buddy! ~~~

[beaconess]

37. Prejudice and racism are not the same things

We all have prejudices - Bluegrass is just pointing out how some here are evidencing prejudice against Obama.

Rather than react with such defensiveness and anger, I would hope that people would step back and think about what he's saying. There HAS been a double standard where Barack is concerned among some DUers. It doesn't mean they're racist, but it does show that prejudice is creeping into some people's assessment of him. The only way to combat prejudice is to confront it in ourselves and when we recognize it in others.

[Pithy Cherub]

46. Bias is a matter of

having personal criterion with differing value weights for each individual. The OP used personal bias to make a value judgment and less than well-reasoned public statement that is not validated by the community at large or the facts. Obama has no experience and was against the war - A Statement of fact that doesn't mean make an amazing magical jump across the Grand Canyon of Logic to say wow he's ready to be president. He's not. He can be exceedingly articulate, but has a tendency to say um a lot when he's thinking.

As a person of color myself, being judged by a common standard or established qualifications works for me. Obama is being judged, assessed and weighed on the merits and on the absence of potential required credentials in the national security, foreign policy and legislative arena as any other candidate. He would want no less and certainly no special treatment. Obama has to stand on what he has or doesn't have in an election. So be it. The entire premise of the OP was ill-advised and made because the OP's value system is not validated by others joining in to create a groundswell of political support at this juncture of Obama's nascent career.

Beam in the eye thing...

[beaconess]

53. Obama is not being judged according to the same standards as other

potential candidates - as evidenced by the prevalence of "America isn't ready for a Black president" and "he shouldn't run until people in Alabama and Mississippi are chanting his name in the streets" and "If Harold Ford couldn't win the Senate in Tennessee, what makes anyone think Obama can win the presidency" posts.

He is clearly being judged differently by some DUers because of his race and held to a standard not applied to similarly situated White potential candidates.

[Name removed]

54. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BluegrassDem]

60. Thanks Beaconess...

And yet another double standard is that Edwards was hardly ever panned for his inexperience when he ran in 2004. I was on DU in 2004 and I swear, I hardly ever saw any posters mention his lack of political seasoning. But for Barack, it's all I hear.

The ironic thing is that Obama has been in politics for a long time. He was a community activist before becoming a state senator. He has held public office before he was a U.S. senator. But for some reason, John Edwards got a free pass when he ran for president...even from the media. But for Obama, inexperience is all I ever hear.

[John Gauger]

91. That is a good point.

His stance should be recognized. We should note that he is supposedly inexperienced but has taken a stand that exhibits foresight and judgement.

[boolean]

137. HA HA HA

Be realistic. There are racists here just like there are racists everywhere else. Just because they don't openly admit it doesn't change anything.

[tinfoil tiaras]

23. I like Obama

:)

[snowbear]

27. I LOVE Obama!

I don't know how many times I've said that he has more experience that Shrub had when he became President.. but it's kinda evident that Bluegrass Dem wasn't logged on during those times..

Bluegrass, two minutes in the penalty box -->

Damn U!

[McCamy Taylor]

28. Who said Obama isnt supported at DU? Is this a strawman thread to drum up support?

OK, I will bite. Obama is great. But this thread isnt great so I am not nominating it. This is a cheap trick. Try having something to say next time.

:dem:

[notadmblnd]

32. could yu point out a thread where Obama is criticized?

I haven't seen any.

[mtnsnake]

108. You could fill a book with 'em. nt

[Lydia Leftcoast]

33. I wouldn't want Obama if he were white, yellow, red, or any other color

You don't run a junior senator who hasn't even completed his first term and who is barely over the minimum legal age for president and whose only claim to fame is one speech at the 2004 convention.

[Erika]

34. Well said n/t

[Imagevision]

38. BluegrassDem> exactly!! - what experience does mayor Giuliani or Bush have on 2000??

Bush would listen to his advisors then get back to us, OR,
"big business founded this country - big business is going to continue to run it" the President will merely be our spokesman!

[tkmorris]

39. This is absolute nonsense

There is no hypocrisy at DU, at least not in the areas you mentioned. Nor is it a double standard. What you are seeing is one of the very things that makes DU such an amazing place, and coincidentally is the reason why Dems are often described as fractured or in disarray.

You see, we have a wide variety of opinions here, and throughout the Democratic party. You seem to view DU as a single entity, that contradicts itself. It isn't. It is a multitude of voices, having many views, often in direct opposition to each other. This is the biggest weakness of the Democratic party, and also it's greatest strength.

Some people here DO give Obama credit for his war stance. Some think that it matters more that he is still a bit green in his political career. Some actually do both.

I really despise your insinuation that good people who don't think Obama is ready for a presidential run out of some racial motivation. That is one of the ugliest accusations you can level at a person, and one that should NEVER be made except in the presence of compelling evidence. Such does not exist here, and as far as I can recall I have seen no evidence whatsoever that even a single DU'er refuses to support Obama due to the color of his skin.

Racism, when it occurs, is an ugly thing. False accusations of racism, while not as headline grabbing, are just as destructive. We are better than this I believe, and I think once you reflect a bit more on this issue you will agree. I hope so, at least.

[seabeyond]

41. so, because there are du'ers that are not favoring your candidate

for whatever reason they are hypercrits. obama may have opposed war but there is a lot more in his record and people may prefer someone else to him. doesnt make them hypocrits.... it is democracy

[madmusic]

42. I don't support Obama because he is too fundie...

Just like Murtha, who i don't support either. But neither of them are running for election right now, so it doesn't really matter who I support or don't, since my vote won't count because there won't be one.

EDIT: On the other hand, it is surprising how many Dems are one issue people rather than supporting the entire liberal basis of politics. I think they fell for too much of the Right's propaganda. But, oh well, I post what I can and hope to find someone interested.

EDIT II: Come to think of it, Obama may be more to my liking that I think. Haven't really looked into it, and maybe he is actually liberal but not so much on the hot topic issues the media concentrates on. There is a lot more to the Democratic party than abortion and gay marriage, you know, like its fundamentals.

[Kelly Rupert]

48. No, he's quite liberal. He just reaches out and respects religion.

[madmusic]

63. Thanks. I'll look into it more.

For now, I just want to dump this fundie police state, even if the fundies were only used. Maybe it is only Black men and women who know what is really going on. 'Cause the middle class white folks sure as hell don't.

[Imagevision]

45. I go with Obama because he seems to be the most intelligent...

[Kelly Rupert]

49. I don't support Obama because he's not white.

Similarly, I don't support Gore because he's not white either. He's kinda orangey-cream color. I don't support Kerry either, he's orange-brown-grey. Howard Dean's pretty close, but even still, definitely not white. I'd say mother-of-pearl, maybe.

When we can find an albino candidate, then and ONLY then will I support them.

Seriously, WTF? Obama's race is an asset if anything.

[Imagevision]

52. Actually , Oprah on her own could probably get Obama elected...

[grizmaster]

135. Edgar Winter for prez in '08

campaign slogan- Come on and take a Free Ride

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgar_Winter

[Lisa0825]

50. Minor detail, but it bugs me.... It's DU, not *the DU*

It's like the difference between calling us "the Democratic Party" vs "the Democrat Party." I'm not making a judgment about you, but "the DU" is often a dead giveaway for folks from "that other site."

[spooky3]

51. He was not in a position to vote for or against the IWR.

There's a big difference between casting the vote at the time, and saying later what you would have done in that situation.

I would like for him to be clearer about the separation of church and state.

I see him as having a very promising future.

[beaconess]

56. He didn't say it later. He said it at the time.

As for the church and state issue, he delivered one of the best, most cogent quotes about this that I've heard:

"You know, my faith is one that admits some doubt that says that I believe in Jesus Christ, and I believe in God, but I also recognize that part of my job as a Christian is to recognize that I may not always be right. That God doesn't speak to me alone, and that the only way that I can live effectively with people who have different beliefs and different faiths is if we have a civil society, that is, in fact, civil. And, you know, that really is a central difference between myself and Mr. Keyes on a lot of these issues, whether it's abortion or gay rights, you know, Mr. Keyes, I think, feels the certainty of a prophet, you know, somebody who's got a direct line into what God thinks, and I guess I think to myself, you know, I have to struggle a little bit more and admit a certain human fallibility and not assert my, my unyielding confidence that I always know the truth."

This Week with George Stephanopoulos, August 15, 2004

[spooky3]

70. Saying it and having to vote with constituents watching you are not

the same thing. However, I do appreciate the additional information about him.

I like him. We simply disagree about him on some points. That's ok.

[beaconess]

81. So, unless someone was in Congress in 2003, their position on Iraq is irrelevant?

That knocks out Gore and Clark and Vilsack and Richardson and . . .

[EC]

55. Huh? I'd like to see him as Vice President first

then we get 16 years of him...

[Cha]

57. Oh please ..you don't know

anything.

[LittleClarkie]

58. Where's the hypocracy? Two different standards

Yes he was against the war, and yes he's too inexperienced. Feingold and Kucinich have been at their posts much longer than Obama. I'd hate to think he was just using his Senate seat as a stepping stone with no intention of serving the people of IL for more than one term.

[mtnsnake]

59. Amen and recommended!

[Jed Dilligan]

61. On which of the internets did you find the DU...

The google, or some other one?

[omega minimo]

62. Obama's not white?!!1

:yoiks: :wow:

[Mr_Spock]

65. There are a lot of double standards - or at least the appearance of such

It is not always possible to know if people are being pragmatic, prejudiced or simply playing devils advocate. There are many valid reasons why people take seemingly incongruous positions. On the face of it though (in the aggregate), I do get a similar feeling about Obama - there really does appear to be a double standard. I think he's going to prove his doubters wrong though.

[FrenchieCat]

69. Primary wars, they are a startin'.......times a wastin'.....Let's get goin'!

:nuke:


I like Obama....just too much press for too little. He wrote a book (which I have an autograph copy of, thank you very much) BUT, there is a nefarious scent in the air with this kind of "raving press" promotion that I just don't like (sorry, but I don't trust the media....then or now). It smells almost like a Primary Dean without the netroot hard work beforehand (Oprah is powerful, but this is ridiculous)! It smells like an Edwards without an Iowa win. It smells like a Hillary in super fast motion. Obama has an admitted to a checkered past taking drugs, of no foreign policy experience of any kind, and is young, gifted and Black (usually dangerous, specially while driving). On the other side, they've got McCain with his hero soldier POW fame, and we are "given" Obama. It just smells to me......I just need to know where the stench is coming from....cause there's an awful lot of promotin' going on to actually get a grasp on the whys the sudden media "love" for Barack Hussein Obama.

:hi:

[LWolf]

71. Here's just one reason among many:

He might have been opposed to Iraq; it didn't cost him anything to say so, anyway. He wasn't casting any votes at that time. Unlike those in Congress who had to stand alone and vote against too many of their own fellow Democrats to oppose the war in Iraq.

He's not opposed to military action in Iran and the middle east in general:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-0409250111sep25,1,7098310.story?ctrack=1&cset=true

There are many other issues to look at when evaluating Obama, but if war, and the belief that the U.S. should not engage in war except in direct defense of the nation, is a primary issue, it's obviously not hypocritical to prefer Kucinich to Obama.

[BootinUp]

75. The IWR vote should not be a litmus test

I wasn't the first to say it, but I agree with it.

[fuzzyball]

76. Obama's biggest problem might be his name is too much like Osama eom

[Telly Savalas]

89. I doubt the GOP will be anxious to remind the public in 2008

that they've held the White House for 7 years without catching the guy who planned the WTC attack.

[fuzzyball]

96. It will be more the Joe-6pack, church every sunday, or

other lazy voters who seldom tune in to political noise.

[SouthernBelle82]

118. It's only a problem

if Obama ignores it. I remember one time in a class of mine some students got to talking politics and someone mentioned they liked Obama and one girl said she remembered his name because of Usama. Heh heh. Nobody spoke ill of him while some at least made it clear they didn't like Kerry. I found it interesting.

[rocktivity]

77. I think Obama's great, I think he lacks the experience to run for president in '08

and I think that a great way for him to GET the experience is spend four to eight years looking over President Wes Clark's shoulder!

:headbang:
rocknation

[MasonJar]

78. Bluegrass Dem, I'm also a bluegrasser, but I do not agree with

you. Obama came to Louisville during the campaign and his speech was unbelievable. I also heard him deliver a dynamite speech in D.C. in May at the Emily's List luncheon. He is definitely presidential material. However, he will, in my opinion, damage himself as a future Democratic frontrunner and party giant if he runs in '08. Obama is too novice. He is young; why can he not wait until '12 or '16? He would be a shoein then with experience and stature.

[Sapphocrat]

79. That's the best you can come up with?

You think those of us who aren't fawning over him are a bunch of racists? What a steaming load of crap.

The only issue I have with Obama is his capitulating to the religious zealots. (Don't anybody start on me about that -- I don't like the way he did it, but I'm not crucifying him over it.)

[Le Taz Hot]

83. You're too late

One of the Obama supporters already called me a racist because I don't support his bid for the presidency. :eyes:

For those of you who like to throw around that word indiscriminately (sorry for the pun), you might want to understand that it undervalues the word and undermines the concept you are so vociferously trying to challenge.

[blm]

84. He sided AGAINST a DSM inquiry and the Iraq withdrawal plan. That's WHEN he had the power

to vote and make a difference IN the senate. Was he coopted since he got to the senate? He votes like a Clinton team player.

[bling bling]

123. Would you STOP?! WTF?!!

The Iraq withdrawal plan you mention was Kerry's plan. You should have mentioned that but you're not interested in balance or being fair, evidently. Obama sided with the Levin plan and his speech that explained his position was thoughtful and reasonable.


WTF is this Obama = Clinton thing now? This is a disgusting filthy damage campaign some DU'ers are on and it's outrageous. If I had the power to forbid you from posting your anti-everybody but Kerry rheteric bullshit on EVERY thread I would because the ubiquitous pro-Kerry themed smear campaigns against other good democrats have become ridiculous. Ridiculous.

I don't care if you worship Kerry as your personal God and savior. But I will not stand idly by and let the spinmasters go running their mouths unchecked and unchallenged about a decent Democrat who's on OUR side. Good day.

on edit: here's the link to the speech I mentioned. http://obama.senate.gov/speech/060621-floor_statement_of_senator_barack_obama_on_iraq_debate/index.html

[blm]

126. I side with those who want OPEN BOOKS - and when the Downing Street Memos came out

only 10 senators signed on to an inquiry.

Let's pretend THAT didn't happen, OK?

[mtnsnake]

134. It's just like listening to a broken record, isn't it

.....over and over and over, she's pasting the same crock of garbage 24/7 with obvious intentions of running anyone down who's competition to Kerry.

[God Almighty]

92. Obama backed Condi Rice, Negroponte, Chertoff, etc.

He has not been a civil libertarian. Feingold and Kucinich have led the attacks on our civil liberties. Obama didn't even care about the voter fraud in Ohio. The man doesn't have the strenth of character of a Feingold or a Kucinich. Maybe if he did an internship with them, he might learn something about integrity and human rights. Obama is improving though. He's not as bad as he was last year.

[beaconess]

94. And Feingold backed Ashcroft - he's hardly a standard by which to measure Obama

[fuzzyball]

97. And why exactly should he have rejected Condi Rice?

Simply because she belongs to the opposition party?
Seems extremely illogical partisanship to me. Does
that mean when the dems are in power in senate no
repub ever gets approved and when the repubs are
in majority no democrat ever gets approved?

With that kind of thinking our democracy is finito.

[SouthernBelle82]

119. How about for starters

"BinLadin Determined to Strike Inside the United States"? How about her ignoring the most important memo in my twenty-four years? How about that one? No? Or how about her role in lying about Iraq? That is a war crime you know.

[fuzzyball]

124. Which, if any, of the Bush nominees you approved of?

Are there any truly flawless, pristine, almost saintly candidates
out there? Ofcourse not. The framers gave senate the responsibilty
of approving president's nominees unless obvious criminal, immoral
or unpatriotic behavior was found. I am sure you can name a few of
the opposition party's nominees which you would have approved. That
will tell me if you are a rabid partisan or someone who believes in
bi-partisanship.

[fuzzyball]

131. I give credit to Obama for bi-partisanship and following the

intent of the constitution. I do not like exteremists
on either side of the isle.

[WildEyedLiberal]

138. So opposing extremist neocons is "radical"?

If "bipartisanship" means aquiescing to the demands of the extreme far-right Bush Administarion, "bipartisanship" can kiss my ass.

[fuzzyball]

142. I don't believe every one Obama voted for are ALL Neocons

I certainly agree on opposing the real neocons including
Rumsfeld. But you can hardly call Alito a neocon. I may not
like all of Alito's rulings, but that is not a good constitution
based decision for me to vote against him if I was in the senate.
So Obama earns my respect in that regard.

And I fervently hope you will not say "screw the constitution".

[bling bling]

98. There's a lot of defensiveness because people are in denial.

The truth hurts. I don't need to see a whole list of people denying your post charging prejudice because I've seen it with my own eyes day after day after day. Anyone who hasn't seen it is in denial. Too bad about that.

The "inexperience" line is B.S. I don't see that excuse come up OVER AND OVER AND OVER about Edwards or Clark. Clark's never been a Senator, Governor, or even a Mayor. Edwards served one senate term? If "inexperienced" is an excuse for Obama then it damn well ought to be showing up here as an excuse for some others, too. But it doesn't.

The "well the South is too racist, look what happened to Ford" line is B.S. too. I think Obama knows as well as anyone about how racist people are in this country and whether or not that would be a factor in his running. Does anything really think he hasn't considered that? If he feels confident enough to run then who the hell are we to be the ones to piss on his campaign before he even gets started. If that's your reason for not supporting Obama, then you really ought to let go of that and trust that he's thought about it and decided to believe in himself and go for it. Maybe we could believe in him too, and maybe we could even do what we can to help him.

The "well he voted for this or voted for that or supported him or supported her...." people are either idealistic one-issue voters who do that to everyone (because NOBODY votes 100% the way we like every time) or are just using it as an excuse.

The "well I don't know enough about Obama so I don't support him" people are apparently waiting for others' opinions to sway them one way or another. That's smart. I don't suppose they could do any research on him. There probably isn't any information that would come up if you Googled his name or anything.

Sorry if anyone diagrees. If you disagree, you might think this post is bullshit. But the direct as well as veiled prejudice and hypocracy I see here all the time is bullshit to me too so we're even.

[ellacott]

111. I agree with you

It may not be intentional. Many don't realized how things can be ingrained in your mindset.

[blm]

127. I side with OPEN BOOK GOVERNMENT - if Obama pledges to open books on BushInc

when he takes office, then he'll have my support.

Isn't it up to Obama to show he's a serious anti-corruption, open government candidate BEFORE people fall in behind him?

[Hollow Shells]

99. I support Obama for Pres in '08...

but I don't think that it is racist to hold another view. Alternate opinions are always welcome.

[Trajan]

101. If one person rejects ...

and another accepts .. is that hypocrisy ? ...

Isn't that just a difference of opinion ? ....

I love these blanket condemnations of whole communities .... They are complete bullshit .... a purely fallacious appeal ....

IF I reject milk because it has too much cholesterol, but then drink whole cream : I would be a hypocrite ....

BUT if I reject milk, and some other person drinks cream ... are we BOTH hypocrites ? ...

or do we disagree ? ...

Where did you get this notion that ALL Liberals agree about everything ? ...

How absurd ....

When I come here, I EXPECT to disagree ....

I am never disappointed, nor would I complain about it ...

You know where the door is ....

[eridani]

103. Obama is awfully wussy on fair trade and related issues

He's no economic populist, though probably more persuadable than either of the Clintons.

[Muddy Waters Guitar]

104. Eh? That's one of the big reasons we do support Obama

I like Barack Obama so much in large part b/c he opposed the war from the outset, and he was smart on e.g. the bankruptcy bill. His experience level isn't ideal but I among many others agree that this issue is overstated-- Dwight David Eisenhower e.g. was a brilliant President, despite his inexperience. Furthermore, Obama is a proven winner in elections. IMHO Obama would do us proud, and I fully support him.

FWIW, our anger at Hillary Rodham Clinton stems not only from the IWR vote but also her continuing suppport for the Iraq War, saber-rattling against Iran and Syria, support for that awful bankruptcy reform bill and her analogous support for outsourcing, and similar stupidity like that flag-burning amendment. John Edwards has very much revised his Iraq War views and also had much better foresight on that bankruptcy reform bill and other measures we've found so repugnant. I like both John Edwards and Barack Obama both in terms of their policy and their capacity to win a major election-- they're perhaps our two best candidates from the current field.

[StrictlyRockers]

105. Your impression of DU is different than mine... n/t

[aquart]

106. Well, I see his color as green.

I knew exactly what would happen when we went into Iraq and I said so at the time. So what?

The votes he casts matters because right now I trust nothing about him but his ambition. I want to see where he puts his country ahead of his career. I haven't seen it. Have you? Show me.

I don't vote for rock stars. Right now, he's all flash to me. Green flash.

[all.of.me]

110. DU is a huge place

There are over 96,000 people on this site. There are just as many opinions here, too. I don't see hypocrisy, I just see lots of varied ideas and opinions. Some of those conflict, but that's not hypocrisy. Some will say Obama is ready, others will not. Some say Clark is ready, others will not. Some like Hillary, some don't. If one member acts differently than how s/he speaks, THEN there is hypocrisy. I just see DU as a wealth of opinion. There is not a blanket Democratic idea; we do not all think and act the same way. The party is made up of many facets, and that's what we read here. And like someone said, not everyone here is a Democrat! I relish this place for that reason. You get to see every side to every subject.

[BikeWriter]

113. Your criticism is damned disappointing, too!

[SouthernBelle82]

115. He's still not experienced enough

Neither is Hillary Clinton. Both of them should stay in the Senate and prove themselves to me. Where was Obama speaking out against Iraq than if he was oh so brilliant about it? Why didn't he ever appear at any anti-war rally's or stand with John Murtha on the issue or John Kerry? Did he sign onto John Kerry's letter about the Downing Street Minutes memo's? So you're going to compare one thing John Kerry did and ignore his years of experience with fighting the mafia, the CIA and the Bush crime family? You're kidding right?

[GOTV]

120. What do you think "Double Standard" and "Hypocrisy" mean?

Because, judging from your argument, they don't mean what you think they mean.

[Zodiak]

121. Simply put? I like Obama

Not-so-simply put:

I had never heard of Obama until his speech at the 2004 Dem convention. It was awesome. Then he won! Woohoo!!!

Then he was courted by the DLC and made some very DLC-like moves in his first months in Congress. booooo!

Then he asked the DLC to take his name off of their website and took more progressive positions. Yaaaayyyy!!!!

Now he is looking at the POTUS and dreaming, and I say "step right up and test your mettle!!"

Economic justice means everything to me, and Obama has passed my test. It is not easy to be courted by the DLC and to say "no" to all of that influence, all of that money, and a fast track to the media. That takes guts.

If wants to run, he will be on my short list in the primaries.

[ecstatic]

122. But that Obama is soooooo "articulate" and his speeches are entertaining!

:sarcasm:

Unfortunately, conscious and subconscious ideas about race will always play a role in the way people perceive strangers. You may have a point---If Edwards or Clark could deliver speeches and inspire people the way Obama could, hands down, they would be the clear cut front runners for 2008. They would be compared to JFK, etc. yada yada... I'm actually not complaining as these obstacles are just a natural part of life it seems. I can't help but think Hillary is hated on this site moreso than others because of her gender. I don't think anyone on DU purposely discriminates, but that's just the way it would play out if the statistics (pro vs. con) were taken.

[happydreams]

128. Sometimes I think its the reverse: You want him simply because

he's black. The guy is barely above the minimum age limit for the Presidency and has only been in office a couple of years.

[Bullet1987]

130. Alright...Obama didn't get into politics 2 years ago people....

I wish people would stop saying this...he's been in politics for close to a decade now. It's not like his career started 2 years ago. I definently think our next President will be a Senator...I think it's just easier to judge a govenor or mayor than it is a congressman. There are some people in Congress who have done relatively nothing at all, but they've been around for a while. Keeping Obama in the Senate doesn't gurantee he'll learn anything new that he doesn't already know. Then to, he IS on the foreign relations committee...so he's been working on foreign policy issues for the past 2 years. I mean, how long do you people think it takes to get the learning curve? I mean, the only thing Obama can do by waiting is getting the chance to put more bills through. But there's no gurantee they'll get passed. There's no better time than now, when he's young and fresh.

[happydreams]

132. I stand by what I said. nt

[erpowers]

129. Not a Double Standard

What you have mentioned is not a double standard. If you notice both Feingold and Kucinich have years of experience. To have a double standard or to show hypocrisy you have to have different bench marks for different people. Many at DU are not doing such a thing. As you mentioned many people here do not like Hillary Clinton because she supported the war in Iraq. If you had pointed out that people at DU supported Hillary Clinton even though she voted for the war, but then DU members refused to support Obama either because he supported the war or had not supported the war then you could have said there was a double standard and hypocrisy; however, you pointed out two people who did not support the war from the beginning and have years of experience on both international and domestic issues. Therefore, you cannot say that there is a double standard or hypocrisy.

I think many people here fear that once again the Republicans will try to make experience an issue during election time. From the looks of the Republican field there will not be a Republican running in 2008 who does not have years of experience at least on domestic issues. Many of the Republicans who will be running will have 20+ years of experience in both domestic and international issues. They would then be able to slaugther Obama for his lack of experience.

[JNelson6563]

133. What a stinky pantload

I have no problems with Obama and I hope that he goes onto to be a great leader, someday.

My problem with a possible WH run in 08 has nothing to do with his being black and everything to do with him being green.

Julie

[ripple]

136. Obama's my first choice, but I don't think people who feel differently are racists

not on DU, anyway. I think there is a tremendous amount of cynicism here- and for good reason! We're also a very independent-minded bunch and we don't like the media telling us who we should or shouldn't like. Another factor is that a lot of folks have their own favorite and will criticize ANYONE who threatens to knock off their horse.

Although I disagree with the experience argument, that particular argument isn't necessarily without merit. I just happen to feel that the longer Obama is in the Senate, his career there will serve as more of a liability than an asset to him. It's way too easy to misrepresent a Senator's voting record, especially to an electorate that has little understanding of the legislative process.

I don't like the Obama-bashing, either, especially when other possible candidates are exalted as practically God-like and any criticism of them is met with a freeper accusation. It does seem unfair, but when people have been in support of a candidate for years, just waiting for a shot at 2008, it makes sense that they would lash out at any perceived obstacles. I think Obama is viewed as a threat to some. Not because of his race, but because of his potential.

[LynneSin]

139. You know, I'm a bit peeved about the whole war vote issue (hear me out)

I am disappointed in anyone who voted for that resolution which was not to proceed with war, but give the Bush Regime the leeway needed to work with the UN to go to war. Clearly the Bush regime lied anyways about everything.

I stood in a small group with Joe Biden after one of his seminars (He hosts them twice a year back in Wilmington, DE where I live) and it was while they were debating the war. In fact Joe had actually showed up late for the event because the debates in DC were lasting longer than normal (His son Beau stepped in to introduce the guest speaker).

Anyhow, it was interesting to listen to Biden speak about the debate about the war and the meetings he had with the Bush admin about the war (he was the Foreign Relations CHair in the committee) and the questioning of "what if this information is right? What if it's real?" You could tell he had doubts but I think back in 2002 we were all still a bit raw from 9/11 and yes, the mid-terms were coming up soon.

So I am upset with Biden and the others for supporting IWR back in 2002, but my decision on who to support in 2008 will NOT be about how they voted back then but what they are doing now to get this war ended. If a warhawk like John Murtha (who made Lieberman look liberal) could change his mind on the war then I think just about anyone else could do the same thing. What our congress does the next 2 years will determine who I will support in 2008 (Ironically, not Biden - I'm ok with him as my senator but NOT as a president).

[let us vote]

140. Kucinich is the best

Why should we settle for a conservative like Obama?

[ripple]

141. Kucinich won my dem caucus in 2004

in Kansas, no less. It didn't make a bit of difference in the overall scope of things, but I was incredibly proud of that moment! I would love to see Kucinich at the helm, but I'm also a realist. For one thing, he hasn't even speculated about another run. If he does run and by some divinely inspired miracle he were to win the nomination, he still wouldn't stand a chance in the general election. That's the sad truth.

Compared to Kucinich, Obama could probably be considered moderate. 'Conservative' is quite a stretch, though. Obama is far more progressive than Clinton (who was a conservative-leaning moderate)and more progressive than probably at least half of the dems in congress.

[DemBones DemBones]

143. I wasn't too keen on the charismatic, handsome WHITE

senator with little experience who ran with Kerry, either. I like Edwards and Obama but think both of them suffer from a lack of experience in government. That's my only complaint with either of them.

[DemBones DemBones]

144. I wasn't too keen on the charismatic, handsome WHITE

senator with little experience who ran with Kerry, either. I like Edwards and Obama but think both of them suffer from a lack of experience in government. That's my only complaint with either of them.