IS Murtha crooked?

[Nordmadr]

I've been seeing all over the place, that Murtha has a questionable background with the "dollars and cents". It is also my understanding that he was cleared of any wrongdoing.

That does not necessarily mean innocent.

Can someone direct me to solid info on this? Don't flame me, I'm trying to be informed. I've been a big fan of Murtha since he came out against the war, but I think we need to keep on top of any crooked practices in our own party. If we can self-police, then the Republcians won't be able to tear us down.

Olafr

[Nozebro]

1. Depends on the Clintonian meaning of "crooked" EOM

nt

[The Magistrate]

7. Your Meaning Is Unclear, Sir

Clarification will be appreciated....

[ieoeja]

17. That should be obvious, Boy.

The most massive investigation in history found Clinton the victim of a scam in Whitewater.

Republican Logic 101: Clinton = Victim of a Crook = Clinton *is* a Crook


So if Murtha has ever had any money stolen from him, Murtha must be a crook. Rape victims in Saudi Arabia should be stoned to death for permitting themselves to be dishonored. And unless Democrats can prove there is no duck in the entire world that weighs the same as Hillary Clinton, then she should be burned at the stake immediately.

[The Magistrate]

19. Are You Talking To Me, Sir?

Whatever you have done, it has certainly not clarified the rather cryptic comment another person made, and which piqued my curiousity somewhat. In fact, it is hard to see what you could say that would advance my understanding of words written by someone other than yourself....

[LA lady]

2. The more I read

The more uncomfortable I feel. We just don't need this now.

http://www.beyonddelay.org./summaries/murtha.php

Rep. John Murtha (D-PA)
John Murtha is a seventeenth-term member of Congress, representing the 12th district of Pennsylvania. His ethics issues stem from abuse of his position as Ranking Member of the Defense Appropriations Subcommittee of the House Appropriations Committee to benefit clients of his brother, Robert “Kit” Murtha, a registered lobbyist.

[AndyA]

4. Well, if there are ethics issues with Dems, they need to go!

I don't care which party they are members of, if they are crooked, stealing from the American people, making deals that are for their own benefit instead of ours, they MUST GO. No exceptions.

We have to clean up our government. How much better would things in America be if we had honest, moral, ethical representation that truly did have our best interests at heart? I dare say we wouldn't recognize what America would look like given that scenario.

[zreosumgame]

20. the thing is...

so far Murtha does not seem to have done anything to enrich himself by illegal acts. And that seems to be driving the 'zero tolerance' (and that includes 'zero thought') folks batty. Once that type, lib or con, gets going then you MUST be guilty of SOMETHING after all they would never be accuse if they were not guilty. Sheesh, makes you wonder if people ever listen to what they are saying...

[Kablooie]

3. I don't know anything about the situation except...

If someone does something wrong, to bring it out as an attack to grab a political position is not right.
When it's discovered, it should be investigated imeediately and then let the case stand on it's own.

It should NOT be used as an election ploy.

[The Magistrate]

5. What Is 'Crooked', Sir?

He has a brother who has done pretty well with defense contracts, and has many friends in the Pentagon. It is very hard to say either that this is on the up and up or that it is an excellent way to do a favor for an influential Representative. It is not exceptional for the families of elected officials to find many doors open to them....

"Who should I give contracts to, my enemies?"

[Nordmadr]

13. I guess I would first quantify crooked as anything that may have

been illegal. Then I guess it would come down to whether or not it was something I considered unethical. How were dollars being circulated? Just because his brother did well does not prove unethical, but was his brother qualified to get contracts he did, etc. Trying to get a solid feel for it, becasue the last few days are the first I've heard of any of this. Already knew he was pretty conservative.

Olafr

[skipos]

6. abscam video links here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=2712625&mesg_id=2712625
Regardless of what you think, we should know what the GOP is going to fling at him.

[Ian David]

10. If anything, shouldn't the AbScam thing HELP him?

I mean, they tested him to see if he'd take the bait, and he passed!

Fake Arab: "Here, I have money for you make deal for my country."

Murtha: "No, thanks."

Hannity: "Ah-hah! Gotcha, Murtha!"

Murtha: "Huh?"

[skipos]

22. Not quite. Here is the transcript.

AMOROSO: Let me ask you now we're here together. I was under the impression, okay, and I told Howard we were willing to pay. And, okay, I went out and got the fifty thousand. From what you're telling me, you're telling me that's not what, you know, that that's not what you...

MURTHA: I'm not interested.

AMOROSO: Okay.

MURTHA: At this point.

AMOROSO: Okay.

MURTHA: You know, we do business for a while, maybe I'll be interested, maybe I won't, you know.

[Ian David]

23. Ahhh... it looks like he was holding out for more money?

How much money did it take for Man-On-Dog-Santorum to try and kill The National Weather Service?
http://majikthise.typepad.com/majikthise_/2005/04/santorum_vs_nat.html

Only $3,550!
http://query.nictusa.com/cgi-bin/ind_detail/MYERS%7CJOEL+N+DR%7CSTATE+COLLEGE%7CPA%7C16801%7CACCU+WEATHER/


Well, I suppose the bad news is that there are some Democrats that can be bought.

The good news (if you can call it that) is that at least we don't come cheap!

[greenman3610]

21. 26 years ago, he refused a bribe

is that all they have?

[Virginia Dare]

8. In as much as he operated within the parameters...

of a crooked system. He didn't do anything exceptionally "crooked" and nobody within the "system" has any right to point any fingers in his direction. However, in my opinion, it is a system that should be abolished, and I would love to see the Democrats take real and substantive steps to do so. Would Murtha, as one of our leaders, agree? That is an open question. I think he should address it, and I would feel more comfortable with him as a party leader.

[Ian David]

9. We need to avoid even the appearance of impropriety.

We need to avoid even the appearance of impropriety.

CREW has Murtha on their list of people to "watch."

We cannot forget that we MUST avoid being put into a position where people can say, "See? When the Democrats got power, THEY became corrupt, too! They're really ALL the same."

Murtha's stance against the war in Iraq helped US WIN.

But the Republican's Culture of Corruption helped THEM LOSE.

I have a great deal of respect for Mr. Murtha, but we really can't afford someone who even MIGHT be tainted with even a HINT of corruption.

See:

Liberal-leaning watchdog group blasts Pelosi endorsement of 'unethical' Murtha
http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/Liberal_leaning_watchdog_group_blasts_Pelosi_1113.html

[Nordmadr]

11. Yeah, the more I see on this, the more I hope he does not

become leader. I respect him for speaking out about the war, but that doesn't make some of this other stuff ok. Pelosi is opening herself up for attack right off the bat by supporting someone who has potentially questionable ethics in handing out dollars and who has pretty conservative social values.

Olafr

[primative1]

12. Interesting How Desperatly He is Being Attacked ...

I do not know a lot about Murtha, but he is really being put to the flame by the media the past few days. Why is this? Hmm ...
IMO anyone who is the TARGET of a sting operation and actualy survives unscathed gets a feather in their cap. Politics tends to be SOOOOO dirty ... so why was he targeted?
Thats the question we should consider.
Maybe he is a more righteous man then we consider.

[Nordmadr]

14. There is this info from wiki:

In 1980 a Washington Post report by Pulitzer Prize-winning investigative columnist Jack Anderson revealed a transcript of recordings never released to the public. Anderson described Murtha's interaction undercover FBI agents as "perhaps the saddest scene on the secret Abscam videotapes. ... He refused to take the money, but his reason was hardly noble."

"I want to deal with you guys awhile before I make any transactions at all, period," Murtha said. "After we've done some business, well, then I might change my mind. ... I'm going to tell you this. If anybody can do it – I'm not B.S.-ing you fellows – I can get it done my way. There's no question about it."

Murtha bragged that he could get things done in Congress and tried to explain his hesitation about taking money for favors.

"All at once, some dumb would go start talking eight years from now about this whole thing and say , this happened," Murtha says, according to the transcript. "Then in order to get immunity so he doesn't go to jail, he starts talking and fingering people. So the falls apart."

The FBI officer then suggests: "You give us the banks where you want the money deposited."

"All right," said Murtha. "How much money we talking about?"

"Well, you tell me," says the FBI operative.

"Well, let me find out what is a reasonable figure that will get their attention," explains Murtha, "because there are a couple of banks that have really done me some favors in the past, and I'd like to put some money in."

After the video cuts off, Murtha continues: "…You know, we do business together for a while. Maybe I'll be interested and maybe I won't. ... Right now, I'm not interested in those other things. Now, I won't say that some day, you know, I, if you made an offer, it may be I would change my mind some day."

more:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Murtha

Assuming this transcript is legitimate, I would consider this crooked.

[Nordmadr]

15. More...

The charges against him were dropped in return for his testimony against Representative Frank Thompson. A grand jury did not indict Murtha; on a 6-6 tied vote, he was eventually cleared by the House Ethics Committee in July 1981. Murtha has always declared he was innocent and has said, “I met with two men who I believed had a substantial line of credit that could provide up to 1,000 jobs for the district. I broke no law. I took no money.”<6>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Murtha

[Ian David]

25. Is that like saying, "All I did was talk to the hooker about going to her room...

"But in the end, I didn't give her money, and I didn't do it. But I did keep her phone number, just in case."

[Nordmadr]

16. ...and this from CREW (PDF):

http://www.beyonddelay.org/files/Murtha.pdf

[Boo Boo]

18. Crooked compared to what?

Compared to Tom Delay? I mean, it seems to me there's a rather long scale of crookedness in Congress. Personally, I don't think he's a crook, and I don't think that he's done anything that couldn't be pinned on other Democrats in Congress. His ABSCAM problem happened a long time ago. The time is long gone when he should be paying a political price for that---not that it won't get some rehashing in the Media.

OTOH, I don't think I'd say he was cleared of wrong doing. Yes, as a legal matter he slipped the noose, but he did get caught up in the sting operation, and it's kind of hard to put a happy face on that. I'm sure he was relieved at the time to have dodged a bullet, but it was still pretty embarrassing.

Whatever. If Pelosi is comfortable with Murtha's ethics, then that's enough for me. I have to trust that. If he really does turn out to be exceptionally "crooked," then that calls Pelosi's leadership into question. She'll have done damage to her own reputation, and inflicted a serious wound on the Party. Surely she is smarter than that.

It'll be interesting to see who gets the votes. I'm pulling for Murtha at this point.

[xkenx]

24. Agree with you completely.

Nancy Pelosi should know what she is doing. And Murtha's competition, Steny Hoyer, has apparently been closely linked to some big lobbyists. Murtha had the courage to stand up against the war, which helped stiffen the backbone of many many Dems., and we took over the Congress. If Pelosi wants him, I want him.