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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-15-06 05:04 PM
Original message
Carville = Hillary
Edited on Wed Nov-15-06 05:29 PM by cali
The longer title would be: Rahm = Carville = Begala = Schumer = Ickes = Hillary.

Cui bono?

It's simple stuff, not conspiracy stuff. These are Clinton people and they're after one thing and one thing only; the presidency. All of these people have long been on the Clinton team.

For those that think that I shouldn't have included Schumer on this list, I offer this from an interview:

"“Fifty-state is a good thing to do, but it didn’t help us in this election,” said Mr. Schumer. “My only disagreement with Howard is that he should help us fund taking back the majority, because it would make a difference with things like the Supreme Court. And he came through—he ended up giving us $7.5 million. We tried the honey approach rather than the vinegar approach, and it worked.”

http://www.observer.com/20061120/20061120_Jason_Horowit...

Talk about damning with faint praise.


Dean is not on the Clinton team. They want someone on the Clinton team heading the DNC for obvious reasons.

As I said, it's simple.
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fooj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-15-06 05:06 PM
Response to Original message
1. Yep. Like Rove says...it's all about "the math"!
Elementary, basic one plus one. Thanks for clearly posting the equation.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-15-06 05:09 PM
Response to Original message
2. DLC=Hoyer endorsement=Hillary
Ought to throw that in there for good measure. It's called politics.

And for my money, Schumer is just throwing the netroots a diversionary bone.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-15-06 05:18 PM
Response to Original message
3. Carville needs Clinton2 in the WH to coverup for Bush2 and James' war criminal WIFE
Just as Clinton1 covered up for Bush1.

BTW - Parry gives permission for entire article to be reposted.

Democrats, the Truth Still Matters!
By Robert Parry
(First Posted May 11, 2006)

Editor's Note: With the Democratic victories in the House and Senate, there is finally the opportunity to demand answers from the Bush administration about important questions, ranging from Dick Cheney's secret energy policies to George W. Bush's Iraq War deceptions. But the Democrats are sure to be tempted to put the goal of "bipartisanship" ahead of the imperative for truth.

Democrats, being Democrats, always want to put governance, such as enacting legislation and building coalitions, ahead of oversight, which often involves confrontation and hard feelings. Democrats have a difficult time understanding why facts about past events matter when there are problems in the present and challenges in the future.

Given that proclivity, we are re-posting a story from last May that examined why President Bill Clinton and the last Democratic congressional majority (in 1993-94) shied away from a fight over key historical scandals from the Reagan-Bush-I years -- and the high price the Democrats paid for that decision:

My book, Secrecy & Privilege, opens with a scene in spring 1994 when a guest at a White House social event asks Bill Clinton why his administration didn’t pursue unresolved scandals from the Reagan-Bush era, such as the Iraqgate secret support for Saddam Hussein’s government and clandestine arms shipments to Iran.

Clinton responds to the questions from the guest, documentary filmmaker Stuart Sender, by saying, in effect, that those historical questions had to take a back seat to Clinton’s domestic agenda and his desire for greater bipartisanship with the Republicans.

Clinton “didn’t feel that it was a good idea to pursue these investigations because he was going to have to work with these people,” Sender told me in an interview. “He was going to try to work with these guys, compromise, build working relationships.”

Clinton’s relatively low regard for the value of truth and accountability is relevant again today because other centrist Democrats are urging their party to give George W. Bush’s administration a similar pass if the Democrats win one or both houses of Congress.

Reporting about a booklet issued by the Progressive Policy Institute, a think tank of the Democratic Leadership Council, the Washington Post wrote, “these centrist Democrats … warned against calls to launch investigations into past administration decisions if Democrats gain control of the House or Senate in the November elections.”

These Democrats also called on the party to reject its “non-interventionist left” wing, which opposed the Iraq War and which wants Bush held accountable for the deceptions that surrounded it.

“Many of us are disturbed by the calls for investigations or even impeachment as the defining vision for our party for what we would do if we get back into office,” said pollster Jeremy Rosner, calling such an approach backward-looking.

Yet, before Democrats endorse the DLC’s don’t-look-back advice, they might want to examine the consequences of Clinton’s decision in 1993-94 to help the Republicans sweep the Reagan-Bush scandals under the rug. Most of what Clinton hoped for – bipartisanship and support for his domestic policies – never materialized.

‘Politicized’ CIA

After winning Election 1992, Clinton also rebuffed appeals from members of the U.S. intelligence community to reverse the Reagan-Bush “politicization” of the CIA’s analytical division by rebuilding the ethos of objective analysis even when it goes against a President’s desires.

Instead, in another accommodating gesture, Clinton gave the CIA director’s job to right-wing Democrat, James Woolsey, who had close ties to the Reagan-Bush administration and especially to its neoconservatives.

One senior Democrat told me Clinton picked Woolsey as a reward to the neocon-leaning editors of the New Republic for backing Clinton in Election 1992.

“I told that the New Republic hadn’t brought them enough votes to win a single precinct,” the senior Democrat said. “But they kept saying that they owed this to the editors of the New Republic.”

During his tenure at the CIA, Woolsey did next to nothing to address the CIA’s “politicization” issue, intelligence analysts said. Woolsey also never gained Clinton’s confidence and – after several CIA scandals – was out of the job by January 1995.

At the time of that White House chat with Stuart Sender, Clinton thought that his see-no-evil approach toward the Reagan-Bush era would give him an edge in fulfilling his campaign promise to “focus like a laser beam” on the economy.

He was taking on other major domestic challenges, too, like cutting the federal deficit and pushing a national health insurance plan developed by First Lady Hillary Clinton.

So for Clinton, learning the truth about controversial deals between the Reagan-Bush crowd and the autocratic governments of Iraq and Iran just wasn’t on the White House radar screen. Clinton also wanted to grant President George H.W. Bush a gracious exit.

“I wanted the country to be more united, not more divided,” Clinton explained in his 2004 memoir, My Life. “President Bush had given decades of service to our country, and I thought we should allow him to retire in peace, leaving the (Iran-Contra) matter between him and his conscience.”

Unexpected Results

Clinton’s generosity to George H.W. Bush and the Republicans, of course, didn’t turn out as he had hoped. Instead of bipartisanship and reciprocity, he was confronted with eight years of unrelenting GOP hostility, attacks on both his programs and his personal reputation.

Later, as tensions grew in the Middle East, the American people and even U.S. policymakers were flying partially blind, denied anything close to the full truth about the history of clandestine relationships between the Reagan-Bush team and hostile nations in the Middle East.

Clinton’s failure to expose that real history also led indirectly to the restoration of Bush Family control of the White House in 2001. Despite George W. Bush’s inexperience as a national leader, he drew support from many Americans who remembered his father’s presidency fondly.

If the full story of George H.W. Bush’s role in secret deals with Iraq and Iran had ever been made public, the Bush Family’s reputation would have been damaged to such a degree that George W. Bush’s candidacy would not have been conceivable.

Not only did Clinton inadvertently clear the way for the Bush restoration, but the Right’s political ascendancy wiped away much of the Clinton legacy, including a balanced federal budget and progress on income inequality. A poorly informed American public also was easily misled on what to do about U.S. relations with Iraq and Iran.

In retrospect, Clinton’s tolerance of Reagan-Bush cover-ups was a lose-lose-lose – the public was denied information it needed to understand dangerous complexities in the Middle East, George W. Bush built his presidential ambitions on the nation’s fuzzy memories of his dad, and Republicans got to enact a conservative agenda.

Clinton’s approach also reflected a lack of appreciation for the importance of truth in a democratic Republic. If the American people are expected to do their part in making sure democracy works, they need to be given at least a chance of being an informed electorate.

Yet, Clinton – and now some pro-Iraq War Democrats – view truth as an expendable trade-off when measured against political tactics or government policies. In reality, accurate information about important events is the lifeblood of democracy.

Though sometimes the truth can hurt, Clinton and the Democrats should understand that covering up the truth can hurt even more. As Clinton’s folly with the Reagan-Bush scandals should have taught, the Democrats may hurt themselves worst of all when helping the Republicans cover up the truth.

Robert Parry broke many of the Iran-Contra stories in the 1980s for the Associated Press and Newsweek. His latest book, Secrecy & Privilege: Rise of the Bush Dynasty from Watergate to Iraq, can be ordered at secrecyandprivilege.com. It's also available at Amazon.com, as is his 1999 book, Lost History: Contras, Cocaine, the Press & 'Project Truth.'

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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-15-06 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #3
6. This is gonna get a whole
lot dirtier..they will be freakin' out when a populist starts comin' up in the polls.

The first on the list of things to do ..must be to get rid of Dean the DNC Chair.

I'm betting the peeps who put him in still want him headin' up the DNC.
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John Q. Citizen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-15-06 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. Thank for posting this. K&R
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flpoljunkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-15-06 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #3
9. Thanks for the post, blm. Saw Robert Parry recently on Democracy Now.
He was discussing his new book, below, which I plan to order very soon.



http://www.consortiumnews.com/index.html
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crispini Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-15-06 05:24 PM
Response to Original message
4. Well, well, well.
It's amazing how obvious it is when pointed out. Good job! :applause:
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-15-06 05:32 PM
Response to Original message
5. Yeah, and they aren't all Democrats either
... oh, wait, yes they are.

In-party kibitzing is the name of the game. The emotional involvement in same here at DU is people with too much time on their hands.
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-15-06 05:34 PM
Response to Original message
7. I think we need a new direction.
I like Bill Clinton, but he had two terms and sandwiched between the Bush's, well, it just would be too much deja vu. We need new creative thinking in this country.
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Autonomy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-15-06 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. It seems to me, electing Hillary in 08
would be strong rebuke of the whole BFEE, at least on a personal level. Of course electing a populist, far-left, netroots candidate (which is unlikely) would be a stronger rebuke of the Repugs as a whole. So I think it depends on whether you want to spite the Bushes or the Repugs more... we don't actually know who (of the Dems) will do the best job as president.
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BlueStater Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-15-06 08:57 PM
Response to Reply #11
17. I feel like I'm caught in a time warp with all the Bushes and Clintons
Edited on Wed Nov-15-06 08:57 PM by BlueStater
This is just ridiculous. This country is and should always be about change. Electing the same people over and over again for decades doesn't do much to reinforce that fact.
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-15-06 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #11
18. I don't want to spite anyone. I want a leader who has a new vision;
Edited on Wed Nov-15-06 09:16 PM by The Backlash Cometh
who is not encumbered by personal relationships with powerful people; who can lead this country into the 21st Century; and who can tap into the human resources in this country by expecting better from us all.
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Autonomy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 12:40 AM
Response to Reply #18
19. I like that, but...
I'd also like to spite someone. Several someones. A whole party of someones, in fact. :evilgrin:
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #19
33. I understand.
As much piss and vinegar as I appear to be, I tend to show far too much compassion when the time comes to sink your teeth into someone's jugular. And there are very definitely times when we need people who are courageous enough to do just that.
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Muddy Waters Guitar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 01:52 AM
Response to Reply #11
22. That's a dimwitted, straw man false choice
A "Netroots" candidate such as Feingold probably has a better chance of winning than Hillary Rodham Clinton. She has name recognition right now but this melts in a second in the heat of a primary and, especially, a General Election. Hillary would have about nil conservative support and would send Republican turnout up to record highs. She does not have Independent support, and even a large number of liberal Democrats are furious at her and will not support her even if she were nominated-- we'd be looking at 3rd Parties getting a decent share of the vote in 2008.

The best choices would be good Democrats with reliable records and stands who could also win-- I'd put Edwards, Clark, Obama, Richardson, maybe Boxer and/or Schweitzer up there also.
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Autonomy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #22
35. LOL
It couldn't be a false choice. Know why? It was not offered as a the only alternatives, but as examples. I don't know what a "straw man false choice" is, but it's not even close to a straw man. I would have to be trying to rephrase someone else, which I am not.

So Feingold has a better chance than Hillary huh? You're the only one I've heard trying to pass that off. You better tell Russ, because he says he's not running because he knows he has no chance.
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Morgana LaFey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-15-06 06:11 PM
Response to Original message
10. Good point
all those fellas will get nice posts if Hillary is in office, won't they? Hmmmmmm.
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Fermezlabush Donating Member (211 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-15-06 06:32 PM
Response to Original message
12. Dunno. Maybe it's just Matalin.Cheney/BFEE
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David Zephyr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-15-06 07:57 PM
Response to Original message
13. cali, cali, cali...
Now you know better than to say such iconoclastic things about the Clintons.

Didn't you get the memo? the Clintons figure that they own the Democratic Party.
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k_jerome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-15-06 08:06 PM
Response to Original message
14. high praise for Carville. nt.
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donheld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 08:14 AM
Response to Reply #14
27. high praise for Carville hitting the road. nt.
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creeksneakers2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-15-06 08:50 PM
Response to Original message
15. I don't see any evidence at all
that the Clintons have anything to do with the attacks on Howard Dean. Just guilt by association and innuendo.
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k_jerome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-15-06 08:51 PM
Response to Reply #15
16. hallmarks of the Clinton haters...
saw it all through the 90's. they were implicit in everything.
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Muddy Waters Guitar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 01:54 AM
Response to Reply #16
23. No, hallmarks of people who can see unscrupulous users of
the party when they see it. The Democrats aren't about the Clintons and their acolytes like Carville-- we're about Progressive policies and candidates who can actually win the big elections.
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donheld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 08:15 AM
Response to Reply #16
28. hallmarks of people know how these people work n/t
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bling bling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 01:21 AM
Response to Original message
20. Spreading unfounded rumors about Dems is cheap and irresponsible.
Unless you have any factual evidence of any sort to back it up, of course.

I'm all for calling out the Dem's when they do something wrong. But I can't believe how anyone here can just throw out any baseless rumor they want to about people on our own team and it's A-OK.

Do we have any collective standards for providing accurate or credible information when smearing our elected Democrats? I guess not because the majority seem gleeful about jumping on the eat-our-own: no-evidence-necessary bandwagon.

As an alternative explanation, and keeping with the "innocent until proven guilty spirit", Carville is a pundit. He gives his opinions on all matters Democrat for a living right now. They pay him to do it. CNN puts the mic in front of Carville and asks him what he thinks about political shit and he gives his judgemental opinion about it. It happens all the time. Until you have evidence that Clinton is the ulterior motive behind this I'll stick with blaming Carville for Carville's stupid lame comments about Dean.



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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 02:17 AM
Response to Reply #20
24. You have to realize..
we are overloaded with Green retreads claiming they are (bleached) Dems.

You can tell who they are by the judgmental hypocrisy of their obsessive
separating the wheat from the chafe marathons. A sub-form of Christian Fundes,
dubbed Green Fundamentalists..The monolithic battle cry, only the righteous
are good enough to serve as the new age democratic politicos...

Their sterling example of good judgment and strident support is reflected in
their mortally wounded candidate, John Kerry. The loss of prestige is suffocating
their vociferousness and they therefore need food/fodder for nourishment. Any
moving target not up to their Naderite standards of purer than pure..is fair game,
why not? Should their voices be silenced because the defenders of the defenseless
have lost their rigorously screened icon? Should the continuum of endless clap-trap
consisting of 'mine is better than yours' and because why, end? Of course not!

Why Not? We need more band members who will easily acquiesce to group-think..
We need a voice to promote fundamental values...we will not stand for anything less
than squeaky clean democrats who have never committed a sinful act or mind crimes
that will reflect badly on our drive to rid the world of corrupt politicians.

Until then, the message, "Let him who is without Sin cast the first stone." is
somewhat meaningless, monotonous and fallen by the wayside..afterall, what kind of
attention can we attract for ourselves as the self appointed super sleuths of the
21st century if we remain poised for intellectual debate armed with facts...
proving our points, refraining from misleading innuendo.

Where is the *pay-off* in that?




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bling bling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 03:18 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. I needed that.
Thanks :D

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whirlygigspin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 03:26 AM
Response to Reply #24
26. Le verbage extraordinaire
Great post, strangely enough, reminds me of John Kerry.
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 05:56 PM
Response to Reply #20
37. good insight
I really am happy that a reporter asked Carville to elaborate on and clarify his previous innuendo about Dean to provide the red meat for the mob here yesterday, although the pile-on was already in progress without waiting for that clarification.

What is most telling is the viciousness with which the mob lashed out at people that had the audacity to point out the original comment was, in fact, not nearly as scurrilous as the later clarification that posthumously validated the pile-on, and the annoyance with those not inclined to get worked up about a pundit doing their job. Simply disagreeing with Carville seemed almost a slap in the face to some here, angry that their outrage was not shared.

Worse is the extrapolation to include in their campaign of annihilation completely separate entities, shamelessly extending their assault like a plague, conveniently enveloping those already deemed unworthy. It was like in a bad relationship regurgitating ancient history exacerbating the current battle.

I doubt very seriously if many have looked ahead to the 'what if' scenario down the line. What if those systematically denigrated here are jettisoned into leadership positions, perhaps the 2008 candidate. What then? I find the tone and rhetoric at DU to have crossed the line of reasonable discussion and instead DU has degenerated into a place of negative groupthink.
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Muddy Waters Guitar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 01:48 AM
Response to Original message
21. Another reason so many Dems have come to oppose Hillary and
the Clintonista team in general. They put their own ambitions before the common good of the party and our collective values. It's sickening to observe.
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FernBell Donating Member (233 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 08:18 AM
Response to Original message
29. Thread like this are the doom of the Democratic Party.
Edited on Thu Nov-16-06 08:25 AM by FernBell
A razor-thin, one-vote majority never wins power when it completely rejects compromise. If you're incapable of recognizing that obvious fact then the extremely narrow collapse of the right should at least tell you that much. 51-49 is not some kind of overwhelming mandate. WAKE UP!!

Sadly, the historical lessons of GOP failure are often totally lost on the DU.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 08:37 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. What are you talking about?
WTF does a razor thin majority in the Senate have to do with Carville or the Clintons?

Are you sure you're responding to my OP, and didn't just wander into the wrong thread?
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FernBell Donating Member (233 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 08:40 AM
Response to Reply #30
31. If you're incapable of recognizing........
Edited on Thu Nov-16-06 08:46 AM by FernBell
......what it means for you to start a thread pitting Dean against Hillary then you're incapable of recognizing the primary division in the Democratic Party. While your thread title was supposedly about Carville and Hillary, the REAL subject of your thread was all about Dean vs. Hillary.

It was all about dividing the party, and don't even try to play dumb.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #31
32. Bullshit.
My post was about what's been happening with Carville's dedicated effort to catapult Dean out of the DNC chairmanship, and I offer my explanation- which isn't only mine; it's shared by many people in DC. And Dean, to my knowledge, has been nothing but gracious, so no, it's not about Dean v Hillary, it's about Hillary v. the grassroots/netroots. This is a political discussion board. I presented an analysis of a political situation. And if you want to blame anyone for divisions in the party, I suggest you blame those who started this attack on Dean and the grassroots. Yes, I happen to think that Carville'a attacks are connected to Hillary's quest for the Presidency.
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 10:03 AM
Response to Original message
34. Thanks for helping feed the beast
The M$M and Repugs love this crap

After Win, Democrats Revert to Finger-Pointing
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=post&forum=132&topic_id=2969982&mesg_id=2969982

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cadmium Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #34
36. I am both suspicious and tired of the Bush-Clinton cycle. N/t
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #34
38. When people pull the sort of shit that Carville's pulling
it's gonna get talked about on blogs and lefty message boards. I'm not about to walk in lockstep.
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. Carville should be called out and held accountable
but he doesn't represent the Clinton's any more or the DLC. He does the bidding of the devil now and the devil's handmaiden that he calls his wife.

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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 06:56 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. Sorry, but both logic
and the ol' razor dictate that he's serving dems and the particularly the Clintons: He's outspoken in his support of the clintons and an avowed dem who travels in dem circles. Thinking he's a super secret mole in league with a disgraced and unpopular president, is just silly.
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-16-06 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. Carville reminds me of Dennis Miller
Everyone use to think he was cool, but now he's the asshole no one really wants to hang with anymore.

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