I don't want to dump Dean but why is Carville wrong about supporting

[saracat]

the third tier candidates? I think if they were supported financially, they might have won. I can think of several in my state that could have.I happen to think Carville was right on that one point.We could have picked up more seats. But overall Dean has done well.If he had LOST seats I could see asking for his replacement but he didn't .I just think we could have gotten more.Flame away!

[fooj]

1. Yes. We COULD have picked up more seats...

Perhaps the pitbull should ask Hillary why she sat on her money? Why didn't Emmanuel disburse $ to the candidates other than DLC candidates. He did that, you know. Withheld funds.

I'm not flaming. Just saying...:hi:

[Coexist]

3. well put.

my response has just become irrelevant.

[AtomicKitten]

4. Hillary gave $3.5 million to the DSCC.

Just saying ...

Oh, and it's spelled Emanuel.

[louis-t]

5. Yeah, Emmanuel is the girl in the movies.

(Tongue hanging out)
edit: Wait, it's a girl, so it's Emmanuelle. Pardon my French.

[fooj]

10. LOL!!!!!!

Now THAT'S NASTY! Guess I'm TOTALLY busted!:rofl:

[fooj]

6. BFD. Not even CLOSE to the 11 MILLION Kerry gave.

Oh, and thanks.:smoke:

[Coexist]

8. Hillary collected 1.39 mil from Wall Street alone

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/Story.aspx?guid=%7B8E1D098F-01CF-47BF-A3A2-6B0C6E803708%7D&siteid=

and spent tons on a race she was a shoe-in to win.

[Hawkowl]

84. $$

Hilary spent RECORD BREAKING AMOUNTS of cash. Just to make a statement? She is an idiot. The amount of political goodwill she could've accrued by supporting other candidates is incalcuable. This alone disqualifies her as a good pres. candidate in my book; i.e. her lack of political judgement and failure to be a team player.

[AtomicKitten]

9. Um, Kerry raised that money; it wasn't his own.

Of his own wad, he actually gave $1 million to the DSCC in December 2004 and was shamed into giving another $1/2 million last month.

[fooj]

16. You certainly are a wealth of information.

Who gives a shit how he got the money? I certainly don't. Fact is...it's STILL 11 million.

As far as Hillary goes...Rupert Murdoch donated quite a hefty sum to her, yes? I'll bet the farm that she didn't whip out her PERSONAL checkbook. That is, of course, unless you've got checkstubs proving otherwise.

Oh. It's "giving". Just saying.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[fooj]

22. Prove it.

:smoke:

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[fooj]

29. At least I didn't edit my post like YOU did.

Some things are worth being honest about.

Edit to add: Show me WHERE I understated re: Hillary. Show me.

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AtomicKitten]

45. Oh, okay .......... EDITED JUST FOR YOU!!!

from your keyboard to our monitors:

Perhaps the pitbull should ask Hillary why she sat on her money?

She didn't.

"Sat on her money" = disinformation = understated.

"Kerry gave $11 million" = disinformation * = overstated.

* It wasn't his own money. Since you slammed HRC for "sitting" on her money, the comparison of donating their own money should be the same.

I'm done with this circuitous nonsense.

[fooj]

51. YOU said "understated"...I was simply making an observation.

I BET you're done with this NONSENSE. Isn't that rich? The EDIT QUEEN has spoken.:rofl:

See ya.:hi:

[Coexist]

31. She didn't say Kerrry donated that to the DCCC, she said he donated.

http://www.johnkerry.com/themost/

"Kerry has a big electronic address book and he hasn't been shy about using it…it's also bringing in quite a bit of money for Democrats nationwide…he has given or raised nearly $10 million for Democratic candidates and committees since November 2004." - Washington Post, "Kerry Treasury Department," 7.2.06

[AtomicKitten]

36. This conversation is about Emanuel vis a vis Carville ergo the DSCC

Here's an article from the Boston Globe that might help you out a bit.
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2006/10/21/kerry_is_pressured_to_share_campaign_wealth/

edited to provide the link:

Prior to Kerry kicking in the $1/2 million:

"Critics in his own party excoriated Kerry for leaving $16 million in the bank after his 2004 presidential campaign. Though federal spending limits kept him from using it all on his own campaign, he could have given away what the law said he couldn't spend; that year, Democrats lost seats in both the House and the Senate.

Kerry aides said the senator saved the cash to cover leftover presidential campaign bills and to pay for lawyers in case he had to challenge voting irregularities in some states or if his race against President Bush had to be settled in court.

Though he quickly kicked in $1 million to the DSCC, gave $500,000 to the DCCC, and $1 million to the Democratic National Committee, Kerry has held on to the bulk of his campaign money as he prepares for a possible second run at the White House in 2008.

Last month, when DSCC officials asked all Democratic senators for last-call financial contributions before Election Day, Senator Edward M. Kennedy of Massachusetts was among three lawmakers who donated $1 million each. Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York signed a check for $2 million.

Kerry, however, kept his checkbook shut. The senator's aides said he has no plans to give again."

***************

And lo and behold the horrible, evil Rahm Emanuel comes to Kerry's rescue.

"Many prominent Democrats, including DCCC chairman Rahm Emanuel, an Illinois Democrat, have praised Kerry for spending his time and money helping candidates. Hassan Nemazee , the DSCC's national finance chairman, said criticism of Kerry is misguided."

[ProSense]

37. Rahm didn't come to the rescue, he couldn't deny the truth! Where's Clinton's record?

Many prominent Democrats, including DCCC chairman Rahm Emanuel, an Illinois Democrat, have praised Kerry for spending his time and money helping candidates. Hassan Nemazee , the DSCC's national finance chairman, said criticism of Kerry is misguided.

"People have notoriously short memories in this business," Nemazee said. "Cumulatively, John Kerry has done as much if not more than any other individual senator."

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2006/10/21/kerry_is_pressured_to_share_campaign_wealth/?page=2

November 8, 2006

John Kerry, Keeping America’s Promise Commitment Helps Bring Democrats to Victory

For the past two years, John Kerry and the 3 million person strong johnkerry.com online community of grassroots supporters have worked tirelessly on behalf of Democratic candidates running in the most critical races in the country. John Kerry gave early and often to arm the Democrats with the resources they needed to compete, and together with the johnkerry.com community threw a record amount of support behind Democratic candidates this cycle.

Below are highlights of John Kerry’s work this cycle that helped make a Democratic Congress a reality:

* John Kerry gave away $14 million to over 260 Democratic candidates and committees in races up and down the ticket in nearly every state in the country.
* John Kerry traveled to 35 states to stump for candidates in local, state and federal races, helping to turn the vote in states from Massachusetts and Washington State to Texas and Virginia.
* John Kerry made it his personal mission to give the Democratic veteran candidates running for Congress the resources they needed to compete in this election. He gave $1.3 million to 31 veteran candidates this cycle. From throwing his early support behind Jim Webb, turning his primary race and giving nearly $400K to his campaign, to donating to veteran candidates like Joe Sestak early so they could run strong, well-funded campaigns from day one, John Kerry stood with his fellow veterans to change the course of this country.
* John Kerry stood up when his fellow Democratic veterans any time they were swift-boated by their Republican opponents in this election. When Leonard Boswell was attacked by misleading ads funded by the same Bush backers who funded the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth, John Kerry raised 50K in 24 hours to help Boswell fight back. When the Republicans smeared the service records of veterans Patrick Murphy and Joe Sestak, John Kerry was the first to stand by their side and call their opponents out on their lies.
* John Kerry dispatched 5,000 volunteers into 25 states as the critical GOTV season heated up.
* In the final days of the campaign, John Kerry raised a million dollars in just 24 hours for 4 of the most critical Senate races, setting a record for online fundraising through the johnkerry.com community.
* John Kerry raised over 500K for Bob Casey in his race to unseat Rick Santorum in Pennsylvania. Kerry raised over 300K each for Harold Ford, Jr., Jim Webb and Claire McCaskill. Kerry raised over 200K each for Maria Cantwell, Tammy Duckworth, Bill Nelson and Bob Menendez.
* John Kerry raised over 100K each for 10 candidates, including Sherrod Brown, Chet Culver, Patrick Murphy, Joe Sestak, Amy Klobuchar, Jim Pederson, and John Baldacci.

Just look at what we did together: $14 million. More than 260 candidates, committees, and progressive causes. 43 states. Thank you so much for the personal role you played in this stunning achievement.

Listed below are those that together we supported:
Name/Organization State
Abdul-Samad, Ako Iowa
Akaka, Daniel Hawaii
Anderson, Glenn Michigan
Angelides, Phil California
Appel, Staci Iowa
Arcuri, Michael New York
Arizona Democratic Party Arizona
Aydelott, Judy New York
Bailey, McKinley Iowa
Baines, Bob New Hampshire
Baldacci, John Maine
Ballenger, Lee South Carolina
Barber, Robert South Carolina
Bean, Melissa Illinois
Becerra, Xavier California
Biden III, Beau Delaware
Bingaman, Jeff New Mexico
Bishop, Timothy New York
Black, Dennis Iowa
Blumenauer, Earl Oregon
Bolanos, Rick Texas
Boswell, Leonard Iowa
Brady, Jerry Idaho
Braley, Bruce Iowa
Brown, Charles California
Brown, Sherrod Ohio
Brunner, Jennifer Ohio
Burghard, Duane Missouri
Burner, Darcy Washington
Busansky, Phyllis Florida
Busby, Francine California
Byrd, Robert West Virginia
Byrnes, Pam Michigan
Byrum, Barb Michigan
California Democratic Party California
Cantwell, Maria Washington
Capuano, Michael Massachusetts
Cardin, Ben Maryland
Care, Terry Nevada
Carney, Chris Pennsylvania
Carter, Jack Nevada
Casey, Bob Pennsylvania
Charleston County Democratic Party South Carolina
Christensen, Donna Virgin Islands
Clark, Martha Fuller New Hampshire
Clinton, Hillary Rodham New York
Cobb-Hunter, Gilda South Carolina
Coleman, Chris Minnesota
Colorado Democratic Party Colorado
Colorado State Democratic Legislative Committee Colorado
Conrad, Kent North Dakota
Courage, John Texas
Courtney, Joe Connecticut
Cranley, John Ohio
Culver, Chet Iowa
Cummings, Elijah Maryland
Danielson, Jeff Iowa
Davitt, Mark Iowa
DCCC
Deeds, Creigh Virginia
DeFelice, Emile South Carolina
Delahunt, Bill Massachusetts
Democratic Party of Wisconsin Wisconsin
Denish, Diane New Mexico
Derby, Jill Nevada
DeVries, Betsi New Hampshire
DLCC
DNC
Double Speak
DSCC
Duckworth, Tammy Illinois
Dunn, Tim North Carolina
Ellison, Keith Minnesota
Ellsworth, Brad Indiana
Estabrook, Iris New Hampshire
Farrell, Diane Connecticut
Fattah, Chaka Pennsylvania
Fawcett, Jay Colorado
Fedor, Teresa Ohio
Feinstein, Dianne California
Ferrer, Freddie New York
Florida Democratic Party Florida
Fogarty, Charlie Rhode Island
Ford, Harold Tennessee
Ford, Jack Ohio
Frank, Barney Massachusetts
Franklin, Shirley Georgia
Gillibrand, Kirsten New York
Gilreath, Ron South Carolina
Granholm, Jennifer Michigan
Grijalva, Raul Arizona
Hackett, Paul Ohio
Hafen, Tessa Nevada
Hamilton County Democratic Party Ohio
Hassan, Maggie New Hampshire
Hawkeye Labor Council AFL-CIO Iowa
Herrera, Mary New Mexico
Higgins, Brian New York
Hill, Baron Indiana
Hodes, Paul New Hampshire
Hollingworth, Bev New Hampshire
Honda, Mike California
Hooley, Darlene Oregon
Horsford, Steve Nevada
Iowa Democratic Party Iowa
Iowa House Truman Fund Iowa
Iowa Senate Democratic Caucus Iowa
Jaffee, Ellen New York
Janeway, Harold New Hampshire
Jennings, Christine Florida
Kaine, Tim Virginia
Kelly, Molly New Hampshire
Kennedy, Ed Massachusetts
Kilroy, Mary Jo Ohio
Kind, Ron Wisconsin
Klein, Ron Florida
Klobuchar, Amy Minnesota
Knight, Patsy South Carolina
Kulongoski, Ted Oregon
Laesch, John Illinois
Lake County Democratic Party Illinois
Lamont, Ned Connecticut
Lampson, Nick Texas
Larson, Sylvia New Hampshire
Lawton, Barbara Wisconsin
Leadership Conference on Civil Rights
Levin, Andy Michigan
Lewis, John Georgia
Lexington County Democratic Party South Carolina
Linn County Democrats Iowa
Lipsey, Alexander Michigan
Loebsack, Dave Iowa
Louisiana State Party Louisiana
Lynch, John New Hampshire
Lynch, Stephen Massachusetts
Maine Coordinated Campaign Maine
Maine Democratic Party Maine
Maine House Democratic Campaign Committee Maine
Maine Senate Democratic Campaign Committee Maine
Manchester City Democrats Maine
Markey, Ed Massachusetts
Maryland Democratic Party Maryland
Massa, Eric New York
Massachusetts AFL-CIO Cope Fund Massachusetts
Massachusetts Democratic State Committee Massachusetts
Matsui, Robert California
Mauro, Michael Iowa
McCarty, Carolyn New York
McCaskill, Claire Missouri
McGovern, James Massachusetts
McLin, Rhine Ohio
Meehan, Marty Massachusetts
Meek, Kendrick Florida
Meeks, Gregory New York
Melancon, Charlie Louisiana
Menendez, Robert New Jersey
Michigan Democratic Party Michigan
Millender-McDonald, Juanita California
Miller, Ross Nevada
Minnesota State DFL Caucus Minnesota
Mitchell, Harry Arizona
Moore, Gwen Wisconsin
Murphy, Lois Pennsylvania
Murphy, Pat Iowa
Murphy, Patrick Pennsylvania
MWPC Educational Fund
My Rural America
Napolitano, Grace California
Neal, Richard Massachusetts
Nebraska Democratic Party Nebraska
Nelson, Bill Florida
Nevada State Democratic Party Nevada
NH Committee To Elect House Democrats New Hampshire
NH Democratic State Committee New Hampshire
NH Senate Democratic Caucus New Hampshire
NJ Democratic State Committee New Jersey
NY Democratic State Committee New York
O'Brien, Denise Iowa
Ohio Democratic Party Ohio
Olive, Rich Iowa
Olver, John Massachusetts
O'Malley, Martin Maryland
Orangeburg County Democratic Party South Carolina
Paccione, Angie Colorado
Pan Mass Challenge
Pastor, Ed Arizona
Patriot Project Washington
Patterson, Grady South Carolina
Pederson, Jim Arizona
Pennsylvania Democratic Party Pennsylvania
Perlmutter, Edwin Colorado
Pignatelli, Debora New Hampshire
Rainbow/Push Coalition
Red Cross
Reid, Rory Nevada
Reilly, Janet California
Rendell, Edward Pennsylvania
Reyes, Silvestre Texas
Rhode Island Democratic State Committee Rhode Island
Richland County Democratic Party South Carolina
Rodriguez, Ciro Texas
Roth, Elizabeth New Hampshire
Sabaugh, Carmella Michigan
Salazar, John Colorado
Seals, Dan Illinois
Sebelius, Kathleen Kansas
Senate Majority Fund
Sestak, Joe Pennsylvania
Sgambati, Kathy New Hampshire
Shea-Porter, Carol New Hampshire
Shields, Justin Iowa
Siferd, Richard Ohio
Skelton, Ike Missouri
Slaughter, Louise New York
Smith, Adam Washington
South Carolina Democratic Party South Carolina
South Carolina House Democratic Caucus South Carolina
Space, Zack Ohio
Spencer, Shelden Iowa
Stabenow, Debbie Michigan
Stender, Linda New Jersey
Strickland, Ted Ohio
Sulzer, Joe Ohio
Sumter County Democratic Party South Carolina
Sutton, Betty Ohio
Tennessee Democratic Party Tennessee
Tester, Jon Montana
Texas Democratic Party Texas
Thomas, Samuel Buzz Michigan
Thompson, Bennie Mississippi
Tierney, John Massachusetts
Tinklenberg, Ed Minnesota
Titus, Dina Nevada
Tubbs Jones, Stephanie Ohio
UFCW Local 791 Massachusetts
Uniting People for Victory
USO
VA Coordinated Campaign Virginia
Valentine, Mary Michigan
Vermont State Party Vermont
Villaraigosa, Antonio California
Virginia Democratic Party Virginia
VoteVets
Walz, Tim Minnesota
Wannamaker, Sadie South Carolina
Washington State Party Washington
Watt, Mel North Carolina
Weaver, Mike Kentucky
Webb, James Virginia
Welch, Peter Vermont
Wellstone Action
Wetterling, Patty Minnesota
Whitehouse, Sheldon Rhode Island
Winter, Bill Colorado
Wojno, Lisa Michigan
Yarmuth, John Kentucky


Bolding indicates that candidate is a military veteran.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[fooj]

41. Nope. Hubby just hosts blogger meetings at his office in Harlem.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[ProSense]

47. LOL! These bloggers?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2967586&mesg_id=2967586

[ProSense]

44. I post it, free of charge, because it exists, unlike Clinton's! n/t

[Coexist]

24. what information is false?

[Coexist]

21. "just saying"

*snort*

:rofl:

[Name removed]

59. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

72. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[fooj]

82. Like I said...truth, honor and integrity matter.

[wisteria]

78. UM, yes he gave millions of his own money towards this campaign

http://www.johnkerry.com/themost/


Over 13.8 million dollars. More than 260 candidates in 43 states. That’s how much, together, the johnkerry.com community and John Kerry have given to or raised for Democratic candidates and committees since November 2004. John Kerry aggressively raised money for Democratic candidates in 2006 – making direct contributions to campaigns, attending and hosting events in the states, emailing his 3 million person list of supporters on behalf of candidates, and raising money for state parties, the DNC, DSCC and DCCC.



Oh course, you would rather spread untruths.

[AtomicKitten]

80. Um, no he didn't. He gave $3 million TOTAL from his warchest since 2004.

But please feel free to continue to not tell the truth. I know you really, really, really want it to be true because he walks on water in your world, but ....

http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2006/10/21/k... /

Prior to Kerry being brow-beaten into kicking in an extra $1/2 million to the DSCC:

"Though he quickly kicked in $1 million to the DSCC, gave $500,000 to the DCCC, and $1 million to the Democratic National Committee (in December 2004), Kerry has held on to the bulk of his campaign money as he prepares for a possible second run at the White House in 2008.

Last month, when DSCC officials asked all Democratic senators for last-call financial contributions before Election Day, Senator Edward M. Kennedy of Massachusetts was among three lawmakers who donated $1 million each. Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York signed a check for $2 million.

Kerry, however, kept his checkbook shut. The senator's aides said he has no plans to give again."


I don't understand why the truth isn't good enough for some of you and you feel the need to inflate information at the same time denigrating all you perceive to stand in his way. He worked hard raising money and I don't understand why that isn't enough and you and yours feel the need to post repeatedly over and over again data from his web page. That's bad enough; augmenting the truth is really over the line of reasonable behavior.

The alternate screen names used to give the illusion of more support than he has here is pretty sad.

[karynnj]

88. Not totally true

Kerry USED a substantial amount of money to raise the money he raised. It is not free - at the point Kerry responded to the HeyJohn nonsense, he said they had about $8 million as they were draing their money down.

He also gave $1 million to the DNC and $500,000 to the DCCC. In addition, he gave money (to the limit allowed to a very large (hundreds) number of candidates.

For those hitting Kerry over a botched joke, consider the factions that intentionally attacked him 2 weeks before the election when he was working extremely hard on the campaign- rather than working on the campaign. You seem to delight in repeating this discredited information.

Consider that Schumer himself didn't touch the $10 million he had in his own account. This was an attack to prevent Kerry from getting credit for all he did to help and to starve off the prevailing criticism that Hillary was sucking up money in 2006 that was really for 2008.

[wisteria]

76. Actually, it was 14million .n/t

[AtomicKitten]

81. He raised $11 million and donated $3 from his warchest.

Make an effort to tell the truth. When some of your cohorts come on here and rip Hillary for "sitting on her money" and laud Kerry, what you get back is the truth. I'm sorry if that inconveniences the propaganda machine. And for the life of me I don't understand why you feel the need to inflate the good work he has done unless it is just to put it up against others and draw a false comparison. You have no clue that this is not helping your cause.

[fooj]

83. Truth is our most powerful weapon.

This "cohort" calls them as I see them.

[saracat]

7. Witholding funds is the real problem. You are correct.

And that was a problem with Emmanuel and from where I sit many of his "choices" weren't that hot.It is really too bad the DCCC and the DNC couldn't work together on this. I do think the premise of supporting the third tier would have worked.As for Hillary, I did hear she gave a lot of money to candidates through her PAC.I believe it was many millions of dollars.But Carville is still an asshat for publicly attacking Dean after winning an elecytion.Really bad form IMHO.

[Coexist]

13. I agree that 3rd tier candidates are important

but the DNC is doing the party a long-term service by reviving the party.

We need to get Governorships, and State Houses to create a pool of viable candidates for national offices.

I am a precinct chair in my state. We have received (for a pittance, thanks to the big party) a VAN file that tracks our voters for the first time ever.

This voter file will help us every election - and between them.

This infrastructure needed to be created. We had given up on two many areas deemed "too red". Well, guess what - I had so many people practically kiss me, because they felt they were the lone Democrat in the area. We need this to rally our base.

The DCCC should be supporting its candidates.

The DNC should be building the national party.

[saracat]

19. We should talk.I am a chair too and VAN ain't what its cracked up to be.

At least not ours. It is so out of date and the stffers don't update it I gave up and went back to the voter files.At least they were accurate!And I agree with what you say about the Dccc and the DNC.But as the DNC has put its fingers in all the states pies with all these stffers paid with DNC money we have got to get some oversight, either from state parties or the DNC. Ideally I think the DNC should provide oversight to the state parties and the stae parties should overss themselves butoversight must be done.

[Coexist]

34. well you have to update it for it to be useful

you should find a person for someone to fax the voter files to, and phone canvas records, so you can have it updated and ready for the next election cycle.

It is a powerhouse if you use it correctly.

[saracat]

68. Our staffers were supposed to do that . Didn't happen.

[madfloridian]

42. That is bull...Dean gave them money.

Supporting the statehouses and governor's races is Dean's job.

You are at it again.

[saracat]

74. Again.I was talking about Rahm, NOT DEAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And I said nothing about statehouses or Governors races.

[dansolo]

32. He also funneled money to primary challengers

He funded candidates to run against progressives in the primaries. All of those funds that he spent in the primaries were not available for the general election.

[Old and In the Way]

35. She spent $35MM electing herself against an opponent that

couldn't beat her. $20MM of that money would have made a huge difference on some of the marginal races that needed money. Seems to me she could have gotten a hell of a lot more ROI on doing this for her 2008 race than burning money for vanity spots on name recognition she already had.

[Coexist]

2. if the DCCC wanted to get more money to their candidates

they could have.

Carville has always talked Dean down. Methinks this is just him sucker-punching someone he has never liked.

The 50-state strategy helped ferret out good candidates who the DCCC then chose to support, it doesn't really go the other way 'round.

From how he sounded on Blitzer, some State party chairs didn't give him his way, and he is going to cry about it to whomever is willing to listen.

[aquart]

40. "He" who? Not everyone knows who was on Blitzer.

'CAUSE NOT EVERYONE HAS CABLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Coexist]

71. 'he' is Carville, he was on with Blitzer today.

[Mass]

11. Because there are other races than the house races. There are state houses and governorships.

And there is no reason to think that Dean's money was not usefully used, on the contrary. Given the results that we had throughout the country and at all levels, it seems plausible that his strategy was capital to this election.

The view that we could have won more seats if Dean had given the DNC money to Emmanuel is a short sight view and an inside the Beltway seat, which ignores that we need to build the party throughout the country and that, contrarely to the DCCC and DSCC, the DNC needs to win down the ticket races that will provide the candidates of the 2010s (rather than recruiting millionaires who can pay their campaigns).

[saracat]

12. I agree with building a "farm team" but a lot of DNC money was wasted.

Staffers all over the place paid exorbitant salaries who didn't know what they were doing.We really need to get on the asses of the state parties and the DNC to make sure money is spent effectively.

[Coexist]

15. where did you get that information from

everyone I work with except one, was a volunteer.

can you provide a link to this, please?

[saracat]

26. Not my experience.They even brought in hundreds of "paid" canvassers

just before the election. They told us we had 1000 and they were mostly paid and many were shipped in from out of state. We have all our staff paid by the DNC and we have assistants to most as well as paid interns.I believe the minimum number of permanent paid staff is now 30.We used to have five!I am pleased we got this kind of attention but there still needs to be accountability! We have some fabulous staffers and some that aren't..And I would like to know who is overseeing the not so fabulous ones!

[Jim Sagle]

17. Chickenshit bullshit.

[saracat]

33. And Baloney to you too!

[madfloridian]

52. You just post rumors and in some cases untruths...document.

Someone you know lost there and you are blaming dean instead of Rahm or the state party.

Our state party is screwed up, but it is our job to fix it....they won't let Dean near them.

[saracat]

67. Read my posts.I did NOT blame Dean. Geez.

But that being said we need oversight. Why do you have a problem with that?

[paulk]

43. another well thought out and researched post

from Mr. Sagle.

You make such a fine argument in response to "Saracat's" allegations.

[Jim Sagle]

53. Thank you both for your concern.

[paulk]

56. you're welcome

:toast:

[Mass]

18. I do not know what happened in AZ, so it is difficult for me to say.

but I do not think it was generally the case. They need to build the infrastructure and it costs money. It is that or we will never be a national party.

[EST]

23. Before Dean, many state "parties"

consisted of one, two, or three people.
Dean knows what he's doing and I don't consider one thin dime as a waste.

He delivered!, fer Gawd's sake and the way he's setting it up, he'll deliver again in two years--if dildos like Carville and Emmanuel are locked up in a closet and kept there.

[madfloridian]

49. You need to post documentation of that. That is an attack...

that needs to be documented. Waiting, saracat. Someone you love lost an election there, but it was not Dean's fault anymore than anyone else.

You are always doing this. Document.

[saracat]

73. Dammit.I am not "blaming Dean" Not everything is about Dean.

And I don't have to document anything for you.I imagine every state party is different. Not all parties were the same.I guess organization is too much to ask of Democrats and that is what I am talking about.You see an attack on Dean in everything.If anything I suppose I am more pissed at T Rahm and I so posted. Others have given far more cogent arguments.I am talking about NOTHING BUT SUPPORTING THIRD TIER CANDIDATES, whether Dean supports them or Rahm, guess what? I don't care.I just think it "might" have been good if they were supported.But personally, I don't care about either man.I have no emotional investment in Dean or Rahm.I just want Democrats elected.

[Romberry]

86. I defy you to back up your claim

The state parties, the ones whose members actually elect the DNC chairman, pretty much seem uniform in their praise of Dean. I defy you to show me either "exorbitant" salaries or proof that the people the DNC hired to help in the states (most of them actually being from the state they worked to help) were incompetent. No offense, but those are DLC style talking points and I do not believe you can back them up except with the out of touch comments of DLC style inside-the-beltway DINO's and consultants.

[EST]

14. Rahm E was super pissed ot Howard Dean because he

did not bow and scrape and open up the dnc bank account to him to play with.
Emanuel was not interested in supporting anyone but his own hand picked candidates and in certain, limited areas.

Carville and Emmanuel are attempting to rewrite history to shower themselves with glory and puff their reputations as king makers.

As far as I am concerned, Howard Dean is the one most responsible for the huge number of victories.

I don't like either Carville or Emanuel and am liking them less and less. If there is anything I can do, that won't hurt the party, to damage either of them, I will do it happily.

[dpbrown]

25. "Third" Tier? We won Congress and most Governorships

And the problem is we didn't help enough dogcatcher candidates?

Dean expanded the focus the way it ought to have been. Carville and the pundits want a concentrated Democratic Party in their hands.

Dean raised more money than ever before. Carville complains it didn't get spent on the candidates he wanted.

Democrats had better wise up and understand what works and what doesn't.

The Democrats like Carville who had control of the party before the 2004 cycle don't want the populism that Dean brought to the party. They want a small party in their control.

This is a mistake.

[saracat]

27. I meant thrid tier Congressional candidates.I think Rahm could have helped.

[madfloridian]

46. Rahm spent half a million against Cegelis in the Dem primary.

Then he spent 3 million on Duckworth in the genreral, and she lost.

He spent money trying to hurt others who won, like McNerney...and you are still taking his side?

Someone hurt the person you had running...husband? It was not Howard Dean, that is not his job, so please be fair.

[BootinUp]

57. Duckworth came about as close

as you can get, whens the last time we were close there? She was a very strong candidate.

[madfloridian]

60. Not my point.

Rahm spent half a million to defeat Cegelis, then another 3 million on Duckworth. Now he is lecturing Dean on not giving him enough money?

Dean is right, Rahm wants to handpick.

[BootinUp]

61. You don't have an actual

reference for that claim about Emanuel giving money to Duckworth for the primary do you? I think it is fair to say part of Emanuels job was recruiting candidates. In this particular race his involvement is controversial I grant you that.

[madfloridian]

63. Oh, yes, do a search here. All kinds of references .

But I am tired now, tired of unwarranted attacks after we had a big win...tired of people who know better blaming Dean for what Rahm did.

Do a search. It was posted here a lot.

[paulk]

48. I think it's too early to know if Carville is wrong or right

There certainly were a couple of lost races that would have benefited from more money. One here in CO that I can think of...

We really won't know for a few more election cycles whether that money was (or will be, since it's apparently still in the bank)better spent on Dean's strategy.

One thing I do know - you're not going to get any kind of reasonable discussion of this matter on this website.

[madfloridian]

50. Not today, not now.

We are all so stupid and dumb here, we have not sense at all.

[AtomicKitten]

54. I guess you are speaking on your own behalf

and then there are others that see through this charade for what it really is - inner-party jostling for the top of the heap, nothing more. The emotional investment in this stuff is mind-boggling.

[paulk]

55. your post has NOTHING whatsoever to do with what I posted.

I made what I consider a thoughtful reply to "Saracat" the OP of this thread and, AS USUAL, you jump in with an attempt to stop ALL discussion on anything that might even REMOTELY be about Howard Dean.

Your post is, in effect, telling me to shut up.

This site is a discussion board, MF. People come on here to debate. I realize that's something you have a hard time with, and if you don't feel like debating, that's fine. But why do you feel you have the right to prevent other people from doing so?

[madfloridian]

58. This part, yes it does.

"One thing I do know - you're not going to get any kind of reasonable discussion of this matter on this website."

That is just not true. You seem to indicate that folks here won't discuss intelligently.

To be blunt, saracat appears again to be blaming Dean when she really means Rahm.

[paulk]

62. another tactic you use to stifle debate

is to reinterpret a poster's remarks to fit into whatever your trying to push on any given day.

like changing the meaning of "reasonable discussion" into "not discussing intelligently".


--------------------------

[madfloridian]

64. Yes, I am a bad person.

As I get told all the time here.

[saracat]

69. Again I am NOT blaming Dean. I simply said that Carville is NOT wrong

about third tier candidates. Rahm could have lossened those pursestrings.Why does the term third tier candidate make you think it is Dean that is to blame? The only thing I think Deans needs to have is oversight over how DNC money is spent and I already explained how.

[BenDavid]

65. Carville is PISSED

at Dean for not supplying money in the closing days of the campaign when there were 3 to 4 candidates he was working for, and at least 20 more, that NO MONEY came from the DNC, and he is pissed that over 6 million dollars was left on the table and not used for candidates. By listening to Carville the Dems that he worked for only lost by 1 % and one is still in a recount....I can see why Carville is pissed, and I agree with him that money should have been forthcoming. Also, from what i have read, the Repubs have stated the Dems could have added up to at least 20 more seats in close races in money would have been forthcoming...Hate Carville, or like Carville, you have to admit if Dean did not offer the money for Dems to win, but be satisfied with just taking back the House then Dean needs to be gone....

[madfloridian]

66. Dean did give them money...almost 30 million.

They did not tell you that did they?

Carville and Rahm tell you what they want you to know.

Schumer says Dean gave him 7.6 million, Dean spent 10 million on get out the vote in addition to the 30 million he gave the committee.

So get both sides.

[nznow]

75. Closer examination reveals Carville wanted the money solely for touch screen areas.

Is it any wonder Dean might think the money would be better spent elsewhere?
What was Carville about and what is he up to now. We won bigger than any projections suggested. Why was Rove so sure they would win? Think about it.

[wisteria]

79. You know it isn't just money that wins campaigns. It is reaching out

to the people. That is what dean did with the help of the grassroots. Carville could give a shit about reaching the people, he just wants to bombard them with more nasty commercials and thrown away literature. What he claims is nothing more than speculation. Oh, and we are to believe the Republicans? Last time I heard from them, they thought they were winning.

[sendero]

70. It would take..

... a true insider, someone with a vast knowledge of politics, individual races, and the finances of the DNC to assess whether the money was well spent.

I do not have that information or qualifications, so I have to go on who I trust.

Dean has been working for the party when he could have gone home with his tail between his legs after getting fucked over by the DLC crowd and the media.

Carville is a DLC asswipe who is married to one of the most vile Republicans extant.

It's not too damn hard to decide which of these men I trust.

[wisteria]

77. because Carville thinks all you have to do to win is throw more

money into commercials people don't pay attention, send out more literature that is thrown away and pay pollsters and speech writers. He doesn't care at all about the grassroots effort and reaching out to the voters, given them a reason to vote for Democrats.

[whirlygigspin]

85. election reform or ATM?

As far as I can see , without fraud, dems would've picked up +50
without gerrymandered re-districting,dems would've picked up +100
house seats.

Carville is showing his stripes when he protests about maybe 10 seats, when he could be screaming about 50 or 100, but he can't blame Dean for that, funny thing, he seems to care more about money than fraud or gerrymandering.

Very telling, IMHO.

fraud stats here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=2968564

thanks to momcat

the gerrymandering stats come from msnbc, gotta find it...

[JNelson6563]

87. Not necessarily

My own Dem candidate didn't stand a chance. Our Rep. (Camp) has buckets of money and has been around a long, long time. Our candidate, well, many didn't take him seriously. Passionate speaker toward the end but....it was his second run and his first run he hardly knew jack shit. Additionally he surrounds himself with people who know nothing about politics and, like Bush, takes personal loyalty over other qualities first.

For the DCCC to have invested in this race (and I'd wager lots of others like it) would have been a waste of money and kept needed funds from races that really had a chance.

The sense of entitlement many candidates have is a real problem. They think because they are running they are due lots of money. Then when that doesn't happen they piss and moan about how mistreated they were without ever getting a clue as to WHY they didn't get the funding they expected.

Julie

[rocktivity]

89. Because Carville is making a fool of himself by arguing with Dean's success

espcially since he worked for some of the Dem candidates. If Carville thinks that more of HIS candidates would have won if Dean had come up with more money, THAT'S what he should be saying--that's something worth having a legitimate debate about. His saying that Dean is a total failure and should be replaced makes him sound jealous at best and crazy at worst, according to this DU poll.

:headbang:
rocknation

[Eric J in MN]

90. Of course more money to Congressional campaigns would be a good thing...

...per se, but it would have to come from somewhere.

Less money for state party organizations.

Or more debt which would cut into DNC money for 2008.