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justinaforjustice Donating Member (519 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-17-06 01:05 AM
Original message
Chavez: Demon or Democrat?
The Bush Administration's -- and our national media's -- demonization of the democratically elected Chavez is due to his refusal to allow the Bush administration or its operatives in the International Monetary Fund (IMF), such as Paul Wolfowitz, to dictate Venezuela's economic policies.

Bush's free market policies are calculated to increase the wealth and power of his global capitalist friends and donors (such as the Carlyle Group and American oil industries) while reducing the majority of the population to poverty.

Chavez has pushed back, not only on behalf of Venezuela, but on behalf of South America as a whole. He envisions a continent free from economic slavery and focused on improving the quality of life for all its inhabitants.

Chavez has dared to help other South American countries to escape the confiscatory high interest loans from the IMF by loaning them the money to pay off the IMF loans at reasonable interest rates and with no requirement that the countries privatize their national resources or cut back on social welfare programs, two of the IMF's favorite loan conditions (c.f."Confessions of an Economic Hit Man", Berrett-Koelher, 2004).

Venezuela's new Constitution, drafted by an elected assembly in 1999, provides an impressive array of rights and liberties to its citizens, indeed more than those provided in the U.S. Constitution, and sets up an Ombudsman to insure that the government respects them. (see English language version at http://tinyurl.com/yedotn). And, unlike under the Bush regime, everyone is guaranteed access to its courts for the protection of their constitutional rights, rights which can not be rescinded under any circumstances. (See Const. Article 27 above). All governing officials are democratically elected and all legislation is considered and passed by a democratically elected National Assembly.

Perhaps Chavez's major crime, in the eyes of the Bush Administration, our national media and Venezuelan elites, is that he has committed the dangerous act of using the profits from the country's oil resources to bring free health care, universal literacy, low cost food, public housing and job training to the millions of Venezuelans who never had access to such things before his 1998 election. They would have us believe that such "irresponsible" policies are devastating the Venezuelan economy. The opposite is true, private business is booming in Venezuela and its economy is growing at the rate of 12% a year.

What is the real danger Chavez presents to U.S. neo-conservatives and their corporate friends? The danger that, if Americans knew the truth, they might begin demanding the same freedoms and benefits provided by Chavez's democratic Venezuela.


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provis99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-17-06 01:09 AM
Response to Original message
1. yeah, but don't forget, Bushies say he's
in league with Al-Qaeda terrorists!! :crazy:
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davidinalameda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-17-06 01:30 AM
Response to Reply #1
7. he's definitely in league with Iran
that bastion of freedom and democracy in the Middle East

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justinaforjustice Donating Member (519 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-17-06 03:27 AM
Response to Reply #7
14. Does Bandar Bush Ring Any Bells?
And Bush is in league -- and was in business -- with Saudi Arabia, that bastion of freedom and democracy in the Middle East. Iran at least has elected political leaders.

Didn't George Bush negotiate arms sales to Iran to stop them from releasing the U.S. Embassy hostages before the 1980 election to insure a Reagan-Bush election win over Carter? And then didn't the Reagan-Bush administration illegally sell arms to Iran to use the profits to fund the Contras' war on the democratically elected government in Nicaragua? Oh, my mistake, that was a different George Bush, that was the father of Bandar Bush and the current president.
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davidinalameda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-17-06 06:11 PM
Response to Reply #14
34. as I just stated
this thread isn't about Bush nor the US but about Chavez

have a nice day
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-17-06 03:30 AM
Response to Reply #7
16. Like the US is in league with China and Saudi Arabia -
not exactly bastions of freedom and democracy either. The only difference is that those nations play ball with US.
All this hoopla about freedom and democracy is just a smoke screen; they couldn't get away with just saying they're supporting dictators x y and z because it is in the interests of the US. But that's exactly what they are doing.
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davidinalameda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-17-06 06:10 PM
Response to Reply #16
33. this thread isn't about Bush nor the US
it's about Chavez

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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-18-06 02:08 AM
Response to Reply #33
38. I understand you don't want your double standards exposed.
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davidinalameda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-18-06 04:38 AM
Response to Reply #38
39. my double standards-hardly
how the double standards of the "progressives" on who are willing to look past the fact that their hero Chavez is in bed with one of the most repressive regimes in the world

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rpannier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-18-06 06:49 AM
Response to Reply #38
44. Using your 'double-standard' theory
Everytime someone points out how scrub is in league with some corrupt dictator, someone else can post how Chavez is in league with Iran, North Korea and Zimbabwe?
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let us vote Donating Member (71 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-17-06 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #7
32. Chavez is one of the greatest leaders of all time.
History will remember him as a hero of the people. He was certainly right about Bush.
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davidinalameda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-17-06 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. and history will remember his association with one of the most
brutal regimes in the world-Iran

you're judged by the company you keep

he's keeping company with a regime that kills gays and stones women

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rpannier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-18-06 06:28 AM
Response to Reply #35
43. Unfortunately he also numbers among his friends
Edited on Sat Nov-18-06 06:45 AM by rpannier
Gim Jeong-il in North Korea and Mugabe.
Jeong-il's domestic policies make every other repressive dictator look like Santa Claus and Mugabe's policies have totally destroyed his countries agriculture and economy.

edited for spelling
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-17-06 01:56 AM
Response to Reply #1
11. I seem to remember..
a time right around when Chavez had thwarted the assassination attempt.
I don't remember how, but two Irish filmmakers, filming a documentary were
in Venezuela sent me an email (believe they got the email from a message board)
asking if I could reach Greg Palast. A woman Freda whatshername was his pr person.
She was on the same message board I was posting on.. (if memory serves Am Prospect)

To make a long story short..I was thrilled for Chavez. He had outsmarted the
assassins sent to eliminate him. I gave the investigative journalists cell # to Freda
they must have contacted Palast...and thats it.. A Chavez interview is on tape somewhere.
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k_jerome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-17-06 01:09 AM
Response to Original message
2. didn't he win a fixed election on hacked voting machines? nt.
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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-17-06 01:15 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. They used open-source software, not proprietary software a la Diebold
In the recall referendum, the OAS, Carter Center, and EU monitors held a recount to ensure things were fair. They all agreed the elections were clean, and exit polling was in line. Chavez won 59 percent of the vote, so he serves out the last half of his first term now. Their presidential election will be held in December.
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k_jerome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-17-06 01:20 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. i read that exit polling was exactly opposite in result...
making them off by 40 points?

Hacking Democracy had interesting things to say about the software developers as well.

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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-17-06 01:39 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. Would you happen to have a link?
Thanks.
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k_jerome Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-17-06 01:46 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. watch Hacking Democracy on HBO...
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-18-06 08:05 AM
Response to Reply #10
46. many claims, little substance
and where there is substance it is favorable to Chavez, ie

"The referendum results were questioned by some sources in the United States. A Penn, Schoen & Berland Associates (PSB) exit poll predicted that Chávez would lose by 20%, but the election results showed him to have won by 20%. Schoen commented, "I think it was a massive fraud".<15> US News and World Report offered an analysis of the polls, indicating "very good reason to believe that the (Penn Schoen) exit poll had the result right, and that Chávez's election officials - and Carter and the American media - got it wrong".<15> The Associated Press says that PSB used Súmate volunteers for fieldwork, and its results contradicted five other opposition exit polls. Publication or broadcast of exit polls was banned during the vote by electoral authorities, but results of the PSB poll went out to media outlets and opposition offices several hours before polls closed.<16>"
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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-17-06 01:40 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. They did an audit of the paper trail, it agreed with the official results
Edited on Fri Nov-17-06 01:48 AM by Selatius
In general, I would stick by what Human Rights Watch, the Carter Center, the OAS, and others said about the election. Most of the claims of fraud brought before the courts were tested by the monitors, and they didn't buy it looking at the printed paper trail. They went and audited random sites.

Exit polls conducted by the American firm of Penn, Schoen & Berland showed Chávez losing by a 60-40 margin, but the official results put Chávez winning the referendum by 58 to 41 percent. The Organization of American States and the Carter Center certified the referendum, but fraud allegations were raised. There were five other opposition exit polls done. Only PSB showed that Chavez would lose. All claims of election fraud were based on the one exit poll conducted by PSB.

The firm was hired by Sumaté of the opposition. Several members of Sumaté have now been found guilty of breaking Venezuelan election laws by accepting foreign money from USAID and the US National Endowment for Democracy. If a foreign nation had given money to political parties inside the US, they'd also be guilty of breaking US election laws, so Venezuela's election laws here are not atypical of laws found in many countries.

The same firm of Penn, Schoen & Berland predicted Italy's Berlusconi would win re-election, but he actually lost and was removed from office. Berlusconi said the vote surveys were all fixed, but the PSB survey was the only one showing Berlusconi winning. All others showed him losing.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-17-06 03:24 AM
Response to Reply #6
13. how many times?
There have been many elections (including a recall referendum) since Chavez was elected some 8 years ago.
Phone polls conducted by an "independent" US polling firm show Chavez isn't all that popular - but that's because the poor majority in Venezuela don't have a telephone.
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1932 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-17-06 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #13
29. Phone polls? Thank god owning a phone is a requirment for voting.
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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-17-06 06:27 PM
Response to Reply #29
37. I'm not sure of your point, but I truly admire your sarcasm.
This is not being sarcastic, by the way. That was really a great comeback.
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1932 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-18-06 05:48 AM
Response to Reply #37
41. rman and I agree.
Sarcasm, yes. But not a comeback. Read rman's last sentence.
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-17-06 03:21 AM
Response to Reply #2
12. nope
next question
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justinaforjustice Donating Member (519 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-17-06 03:38 AM
Response to Reply #2
18. No, That Was George Bush. n/t
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Stardust Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-17-06 01:11 AM
Response to Original message
3. And the down side to Chavez' plan is....?
:shrug:

Hi, Justinaforjustice! Welcome to DU! :hi:
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LittleClarkie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-17-06 01:20 AM
Response to Original message
5. My only real issue with him is that when he and Bush get going back and forth
it reminds me of a grade school yard.

I remember when adults governed. It was nice then.
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snowbear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-17-06 03:30 AM
Response to Original message
15. Not a Demon.. But not a Dem either. He's a member of the Fifth Republic Movement...
So my answer is: N/A = Does not apply :shrug:



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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-17-06 03:33 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. What's the Fifth Republic Movement?
We could use some of that if it is the reason for Chavez's leftist policies, with all those tax-funded social programs and such.

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snowbear Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-17-06 03:56 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. Not really sure.... it's listed under his name on...
Wikipedia --

"The Fifth Republic Movement (Spanish: Movimiento V República, MVR) is a left-wing political party in Venezuela which was founded by Hugo Chávez, the current President of Venezuela.

At the legislative elections on 30 July 2000, the party won 76 out of 165 seats in the National Assembly. On the same day Hugo Chávez was elected president in the presidential elections with 59.5% of votes.

In the parliamentary elections of December 4, 2005, the party won 114 out of 167 seats with allied parties winning the remaining seats. However, voter participation was a record low of only 25%."

I tried to copy the Wikipedia link, but either my computer is whacking out.. or I'm getting too tired (or both) ... but if you pull up Hugo Chavaz on Wikipedia, you can click on the link by his name to the "Fifth Republic Movement"

~~

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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-17-06 04:51 AM
Response to Reply #19
22. Thanks, so it's the name of Chavez's party
(i'm slightly ashamed i didn't know that)
Judging by Chavez's policies - in particular the results of those policies - i'd say his party is closer to being democratic than to being demonic :)
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Selatius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-17-06 04:37 AM
Response to Reply #17
21. His policies remind me of FDR's New Deal
The only difference is Chavez has been setting up pilot programs turning several firms into worker co-ops to test the notion of market socialism. Here's one example of this:

http://www.solidarityeconomy.net/2006/10/11/chavez-calls-for-democracy-at-work/#more-93
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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-17-06 04:55 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. yep, which explains why Repubs hate him,
and why Dems should at least acknowledge Chavez is rather like one of their own, instead of mostly ignoring him.
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justinaforjustice Donating Member (519 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-17-06 06:02 AM
Response to Reply #21
24. Great Article. Thanks for Posting It.
Edited on Fri Nov-17-06 06:05 AM by justinaforjustice
This is a really interesting article about worker co-management of a Venezuelan aluminum factory. above and at <http://tinyurl/yhr3z6>

Unlike some European models, where workers are given shares in the companies and a seat on the board, here the workers participate in the decision making for production, thus abolishing the division between the thinking and the doing.

In the Russian and Chinese models of putative communism, more accurately described as state capitalism, the State (read the Party) appointed managers and controlled production decisions in place of private capitalists' control. In both, the workers had no control over or participation in the decision-making.

Chavez's vision is to have the workers participate in the decision-making in all aspects of production and elect the manager. He calls it economic democracy. Initially it is being employed only in state-owned companies, but Chavez is offering government assistance and benefits to private companies who will implement the idea.



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Unvanguard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-17-06 04:23 AM
Response to Original message
20. Left-wing democrat, with a few unfortunate authoritarian statist tendencies.
Otherwise quite decent; we need more leaders like him.
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Rockholm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-17-06 08:06 AM
Response to Reply #20
26. ?
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Bucky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-17-06 06:25 PM
Response to Reply #20
36. a few?
Ugh. A few too many. He's as bad as Bush. He's driving out the Venezuelan middle class. Houston is flooded by people, working class people, who can't stand what he's doing to their problem-beset country. Venezuela was in bad shape, terrible shape really, before Chavez took over. He's not the devil that my Venezuelan friends claim him to be, but what he's doing about rampant poverty are only Castroist short term fixes, not long term solutions. He's chasing off many of the most talented and ambitious people in his country. Those I know who've gone back to Maracaibo or Caracas recently say that street crime is getting worse and worse and now it's becoming violent.

That poor country needs a lot of fixing. Hugo is not pointing his country in the right direction.
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davidinalameda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-18-06 04:39 AM
Response to Reply #36
40. shhh
don't tell them that their emperor has no clothes

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rman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-18-06 07:54 AM
Response to Reply #36
45. very wise of you
to leave it at unsubstantiated claims.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-17-06 07:57 AM
Response to Original message
25. www.venezuelanalysis.com is excellent source on Hugo Chavez and the
Edited on Fri Nov-17-06 08:02 AM by Peace Patriot
Bolivarian revolution. It's a good de-programmer if you're head is filled with memes like "Chavez...authoritarian," "Chavez...increasingly dictatorial," "Chavez...gun-toting, cigar chomping, leftist guerrilla," (Chavez, in your mind, smudged, smeared, fuzzied, transformed into Fidel), "Chavez, strongman, former military officer--juntas, banana republics, stolen elections, presidents-for life" (smeared the other way toward Pinochet), "Chavez, the leftist president of Venezuela" (but we never hear "Bush, the rightwing president of the United States" do we?"--accurate though it is; "leftist" = extremist, Stalinist, repressive, kills fascists and little old lady librarians and takes their property), etc.

When our corporate news monopolies get on something like this--using the same phrases over and over, and playing to stereotypes that our corporate media have themselves created, it can be difficult to fight off the brainwashing, which gets beneath the surface of your conscious mind. The only remedy is information, and a desire to know the truth. Also, in the case of our corporate news monopolies, they have betrayed us so often--deceived and lied to us--at the cost of so many lives, you'd think people would learn. But I know it's hard. You have to stay conscious all the time when exposed to the corporate "newsstream," pay close attention, analyze their use of words and editorial tricks, read between the lines, and learn to recognize the signs of corporate "meme"-planting and disinformation. One editorial trick I've noticed is the frequent repetition of "Chavez, ally of Fidel Castro" almost never pertinent to the context--they just throw it in. This stuff is coming straight from Bush's State Department (Disinformation Department). Figure this: Condoleeza Rice is whispering these lies in your ear while lifting your wallet out of your backpocket.

Here's a good article on this Corporate/State Department campaign to make you hate Hugo Chavez and never, never get the idea that a country's oil resources should be used to benefit the poor: "The Op-Ed Assassination of Hugo Chavez," by Justin Delacour.

http://venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1876

So--if we want to know the truth--we really have to seek it out. www.venezuelanalysis.com is pro-Chavez, but well-written, by a wide range of authors, and occasionally includes reasonable criticism (not rightwing/corporate garbage).

A couple of things I've learned from that site, and other research:

Chavez's opposition is very like our Freepers--a tiny lunatic minority that has no respect for the truth or reasonable discourse. They whine and complain and turn truth on its head. Rush Limbaugh. Michael Reagan. That's the level of comment and behavior. They are also well-off, privileged, used to having everything their way--and seem to be a stupid bunch of spoiled brats, with no interest in the common welfare of their country or good government. Highly dangerous, though. They expect money to buy them in, and, if not money, violence. I WISH that Chavez had a decent opposition. Every president needs one. But it's not his fault that he doesn't. He has repressed NO ONE! (The corporate news monopolies in Venezuela criticize Chavez 24/7, and even openly backed the violent military coup, and there has been NO effort to silence them. Chavez's response was to back the idea of national public radio/TV, like our PBS used to be.)

His reforms are genuine, and his is the first government of Venezuela EVER to benefit the vast poor population, and provide them with government services--schools, adult literacy classes, medical clinics.

Chavez's government is far more than Chavez himself. He's a colorful figure and loves the spotlight--but he also encourages discussion, reads widely, and LISTENS to people. And he is backed by highly competent and highly motivated supporters and colleagues, within his government, and also a lot of intelligent, committed, and separately elected members of the National Assembly. The Bolivarian revolution is a grass roots movement. It has great and genuine popular support.

Anyone can get a big head and become a tyrant, and I have scoured news sources for any evidence that this is the case with Chavez. And I have found none. None! No evidence in support of it whatsoever. Chavez, the dictator, is ENTIRELY an invention of our corporate news monopolies (and Venezuela's).

Another strong feeling I get: The Bolivarian revolution cannot be decapitated. The passion for democracy, and the devotion to their new Constitution, are widespread in Venezuela, and will survive Chavez's assassination (if that's what the Bushites or the Corporate Democrats intend). The 2002 coup attempt is a good example. Tens of thousands of Venezuelans poured into the streets of Caracas, after Chavez was kidnapped, and demanded the return of their elected president and reconvening of the National Assembly (which the plotters had dissolved). These are people with the strength of their own convictions. Chavez owes his power to THEM, not the other way around. They are not likely to be fooled by a tyrant. In fact, it is something of a racist corporate "meme" that they could be. (A lot of Chavez's support is brown, indigenous or black.)

One other thing: Chavez and Venezuela are not alone in undergoing a peaceful, democratic, leftist (majorityist) revolution. It's happening all over Latin America. As Evo Morales--the first indigenous president of Bolivia--has said: "The time of the people has come." It is more than a movement; it is a tidal wave.

The Bushites, now that they have destroyed Iraq, are turning their attention to destroying democracy in South America, especially in the Andes region (rich in oil, gas, minerals, clean water and other resources). There are numerous signs of this--fattening military fascists with our tax dollars ($600 million in military aid to Columbia this year alone). Building a state-of-the-art military air base (our tax dollars) in Paraguay. The Bush Cartel purchasing a 200,000 acre enclave also in Paraguay. Their re-starting U.S. training of death squads and torturers among fascist military elements. Use of the phony, murderous U.S. "war on drugs" to kill peasants and leftists. Our tax dollars poured into Chavez's opposition in Venezuela (in violation of Venezuelan law), and into rightwing/corporatist/fascist oppositions in other countries (Peru, Ecuador, Bolivia). There is also evidence of strongarming and blackmail, as well as bribery by means of loans and "free trade" (free piracy) deals. All this is very worrisome. Bolivia may be their first target. "Plan Columbia" moving through Paraguay to destabilize Bolivia. (Morales has been vocal in opposition to the U.S. "war on drugs." And Bolivians are very uppity. When Bechtel Corp. privatized the water in one Bolivian city, then jacked up the prices to the poorest of the poor--even charging poor peasants for collecting rainwater!--the Bolivians rose up and threw Bechtel out of their country--and elected Morales.)

There are many, many developments to counter these fascist/corporatist forces. What is happening in South America--the rebirth of leftist (majorityist) democracy--is no fly-by-night event. It is deep. And it is very successful--resulting in the re-birth of South American economies, after decades of ravaging by U.S. and other global corporate interests, and horrible histories of U.S.-instigated violence and oppression. Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay, Chile, Venezuela and Bolivia are all on the mend. Ecuador will soon join them. And Peru, in the next election cycle. That is virtually the entire continent. And these countries and their leftist governments are engaged in all sorts of regional, economic/political cooperation, all of it focused on South American self-determination, regional strength and democracy. They are thinking long term. They are combining elements of capitalism and socialism. The Bush Junta is a dinosaur in all of this. The Democrats may be smarter at enforcing Corporate Rule (a la Clinton). But the truth of the matter seems to be that the Bush Junta has "lost" Latin America, and it cannot be "recovered" by force. This may, indeed, be why the Corporate Rulers let the Democrats win Congress. The global corporate predators that Clinton unleashed no longer have free reign in these countries. Latin Americans have wised up. Can the Democrats "save" Latin America for the global corporate profiteers? Stay tuned.

-----

(Note: Simon Bolivar is the great South American revolutionary hero, who led the war for independence from Spain, and freed the slaves. He dreamt of a "United States of South America," but died too young to realize it. The continent was carved up along colonial lines by the rich landowners and other powerful elites and financial interests, and the pattern has been that these rich elites live very well, while exploiting and oppressing the vast poor population and selling off their countries' natural resources to global corporate predators. The Bolivarian Revolution--of which Chavez is the most well-known spokesman--seeks to reverse this trend, including its most recent manifestation, "global free trade" and World Bank/IMF policy, which both aim at buying off the rich elites, and weakening local governments as the protectors of natural resources and labor. Bolivarianism = self-determination, and self-sufficiency, for individual countries and the region as a whole. It is not at all anti-business, or anti-trade. It is pro-FAIR business and FAIR trade, with everyone benefiting.)
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noonwitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-17-06 10:07 AM
Response to Original message
27. He's neither a demon nor a democrat, he's a commie (but legally elected)
the people of his country have chosen him to be their leader, so that should be respected. That said, I wouldn't be likely to agree with many things he chooses to do as leader, but I don't have to live there.

That said, I do respect him-he's obviously pretty intelligent in how he runs things in Venezuela. Obviously, Bush doesn't have a clue as to how to deal with a communist leader who has oil.
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1932 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-17-06 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #27
28. Not a commie. Only one industry is state-owned and private sector has
Edited on Fri Nov-17-06 10:32 AM by 1932
grown faster than public sector since '99. Most of their initiatives to build up private sector economies revolve around worker-owned factories, which are private entities and not state-controlled entities.

The guy's a social democrat who has done more for private enterprise than any right wing capitalist you could name.

His hero is JK Galbraith, for god's sake.
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ieoeja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-17-06 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #27
30. Then why did he defeat the communists?
Members of my team on business travel in Caracas could not leave the city limits because the communists had the city surrounded. Chavez as the United States trained head of the Venezuelan Special Forces then:

1. deposed the dictator of Venezuela in a military coup,
2. led the military forces in a counter offensive that re-took the countryside, and
3. confiscated foodstuff in the warehouses to distribute to the starving people.

The last is, of course, what ultimately put down the communist revolution in Venezuela. He could beat them militarily easily enough. But just like all guerilla wars they would be back. His feeding the people undercut the rebels support. These people weren't embracing communism because of the ideology. They just wanted to fucking eat.

The question you should now be asking is, "if Venezuela had warehouses full of food, why were the people starving?"

This question actually has important ramifications to the American public. Because the answer is the very same reason Americans are working more and retiring later in life even though increased productivity makes it possible for us to work less and retire younger. The answer is: mindless devotion to capitalism. In Venezuela's case the land owners could get make more money by selling their food overseas than they could by selling it to their fellow Venezuelans. If you are a true 100% capitalist then you should sell that food overseas and let your neighbors starve.

This is also related to Hugo Chavez' transformation from rightwing hero to leftwing demagogue and enemy of the "United States"***. Partly it is the ideology. But there was also a more definite issue. The food in those warehouses was owned in large part by Coca-Cola, an American company.

It is part of a US President's duty to protect the interests of American businesses overseas****. In this case, while Chavez' actions were justified, Coca-Cola deserves/deserved restitution. I don't know if Coca-Cola got that restitution or not. I suspect they did, or we would hear more about this. Considering all the aid Chavez has offered the United States the past couple of years, it would seem odd he failed to take care of this.


*** His actions actually benefit the vast majority of the American public, so is he really an enemy of the "United States"? As the Venezuelan standard of living increases the Venezuelan worker becomes less competitive (wage wise) to the American worker while becoming more a consumer of American goods. This is the theory promised by proponents of globalism. Those proponents ignore the fact that this theory is based even more on New Deal style, or Hugo Chavez style, labor reform than upon free trade.

**** A substantial minority on this board would disagree that we should protect the interests of any business. In reality, that should read, "protect the interests of those who owned that business," but a large percentage of those who would protest my original wording generally oppose individual ownership anyway, so it wouldn't make any difference.



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1932 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-18-06 06:12 AM
Response to Reply #30
42. Hmm. Are you sure you're not confusing Caracas with late '60s Panama?
Chavez didn't depose a dictator in a military coup. In the early '90s he attempted a coup against a right-wing elected president (albeit, elected end empowered by, in Chavez's words, a "moribund" constitution that gave the president a lot of power with little obligation to care for the interests of the people). That president, incidentally, was elected following a campaign in which he promissed to reverse the neoliberalism that had given Wall St control of the economy. After he was elected, he did the exact opposite. He hired a University of Chicago graduate as an economic advisor who took out more loans from the US and gave up control of the economy under the terms of the loans.

Chavez, in the late 70s and early 80s, while in the army, did fight communist rebels when posted in the countryside as far as you can possibly get from Caracas, but they never had Caracas, much less any place, "surrounded."

Communists have been part of the Chavez coalition at times, but they've rarely been happy with him, and the organized communist parties have also been part of the oppostion too.

Chavez was never trained by the Americans. He never went to the School of Americas. I believe he was "trained" (insofar as he went to a military school when he was young and later as an adult on week-long or month-long program) in another South American country which was, at that time, run by a progressive ex-military leader (I can't remember which country, however -- Ecuador? Bolivia?). His older brother was working in that country in the Venezuelan foreign service.

I think you're confusing a recent Coca Cola protest over their failure to pay pensions with something else that might have happened only in your imagination.

Chavez was never a right-wing hero. When he was sent out to the countryside to head a remote outpost, it was because he was becoming very popular among the military in Venezuela for being very progressive. Even while in the remote outpost, he used the military to help the small town where he worked build infrastructure, institute a community theater, start an oral history program, improve literacy, and he stopped a group of white hunters who were killing indigenous people for sport. He was their progressive hero (one indigenous woman from that town who knew Chavez well ended up getting elected to the Venezuelan Senate and eventually became the Senate majority leader).

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grizmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-17-06 02:41 PM
Response to Original message
31. More accurately a Social Democrat
A kinda cross between a democrat and a socialist.


And unlike bush he actually has won two clean elections. So which should we consider the despot?
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bigriver Donating Member (110 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-18-06 08:58 AM
Response to Original message
47. More like a Buffoon.
Or a joke
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