I'm constantly amused

[Mythsaje]

and occasionally aggravated, I must admit, by how I can argue ferociously with some DUer over one subject, and find myself in complete agreement on another the next day.

I generally come down on the side AGAINST forcing people to do anything. I'm opposed to the notion of a draft (though I do support the notion of enticing people to commit to civil service in one capacity or another), I think the drug war is disgusting, racist, and classist, I'm against anything beyond what I consider REASONABLE gun control (keeping guns out of the hands of loonies--which, frankly, includes an awful lot of freeper types), I'm for universal healthcare, I support an end to the Iraq War (and tend to think that this whole draft issue is some members of Congress trying to weasel out of some level of responsibility for it in the first place), oppose illegal wiretaps, think that the separation of Church and State is essential for a free country, and want an end to the misguided notion of "corporate citizenship."

I'm an anti-authoritarian left-leaning moderate. And I like it that way.

[NMDemDist2]

1. we're a big tent myth, full of unherded cats

:evilgrin:

[Vorta]

2. Good looks and intelligence. Where were you when I was 25?

[Mythsaje]

3. Hard to say...

I could've been anywhere...

When I was twenty five I was about twenty-five miles from where I am now, some fifteen years later.

[zeemike]

4. We could agree on every thing but the draft

I am one that feels there should be compulsory service for 18 to 20 year olds and a return to a conscripted military.
But you would not hate me for that would you?

[Mythsaje]

5. Nah..just disagree vehemently...

I'm generally opposed to the idea of forcing other people's kids to fight in wars dreamed up by rich assholes.

My oldest would most likely be declared medically unfit. My youngest is still nine years away.

I understand that some people think there's an economic "draft" already, but I don't see that as quite the same thing at all. Regardless of the circumstances, as things stand now, people STILL have a "choice."

With a draft, the rich would still figure out a way to wiggle out and the only choice available to everyone else would be to serve or go to jail.

I don't think that's the same thing at all.

[zeemike]

6. Well it is probably because I am older than you

And did serve when we had a draft.
And yes some did avoid it but many did not.
The guy in the bunk above me when I was going to school in the Navy was the grand Son of Hiram Walker and he did the same duties that I did with no favoritism that I could see.
I also served with the nephew of a famous author and other rich kids of less fame.
But the real reason I want a conscripted service is to lessen the influences of the sociopaths and those that are there because they like violence and killing.
i assure you that if there is a cross section of people together the lovers of violence are out numbered and afraid of letting themselves go.
I don't think we have that now as witnessed by the Iraq war and the horror stories we hear.

[Mythsaje]

7. I can understand that reasoning...

Honestly.

There's just a core of my personality that says that that sort of thing just isn't right.

My Dad ended up in vietnam because he was given that choice...join or go to jail. He joined. Ended up in vietnam in the EARLY sixties, before it was even a bump on the national media.

Thirty years later he was still dealing with some of his mental and emotional scars. And so did I, the whole time I was growing up. And beyond.

[zeemike]

8. Viet Nam was a pivotal point in more than one way

And it was the reason why we went to an all volunteer military, and for the wrong reasons
The soldiers there were being asked to do things that were morally wrong like the killing of Innocent villagers and the burning of there villages and these things had terrible consequences for the ones that had a sense of morality.
The Mi Lie massacre only came to light because some of them refused to do the deed, So the answer was to weed out the moral people and leave the sociopaths to run the show.
Previous wars did have there atrocities but not on the scale of Viet Nam and for the most part the soldiers treated the enemy with respect and decency.

[Mythsaje]

9. Previous wars didn't have the atrocities on the scale of vietnam?

You're kidding, right?

Look up the 30 Years War. They had mercenary "armies" tromping all over Europe raping, burning, and killing all in the name of the conflict between Catholic and Protestant.

War IS an atrocity. It's always been that way.

In WWI they used gases that were later banned because they were so nasty.

The argument can be made that the seed for WWII was created in the aftermath of WWI when the war reparations broke the German economy and gave Hitler the opportunity to rise to power promising to restore Germany to greatness.

We NUKED Japan. Twice. When it can be argued that we didn't even NEED to.

[zeemike]

10. I was referring to our troops and there conduct

All wars have been atrocious for sure but the conduct of the individual troops is important for there sense of well being as well as ours.
We took pride in the fact that in WW1 and WW2 our troops did not abuse there prisoners and rape and pillage with the nod and wink of the leadership.
War by it's very nature is immoral and it is a hard thing to ask a moral people to do that job, but sometimes, like against Hitler or Japan the job must be done.

[Mythsaje]

11. I get you...

and, yeah, American troops had a reputation back then of being decent people. Were there some bad apples? I'm sure there were.

But we were fighting for all the Right reasons, I'd say. Because we had no choice. Especially in WWII, but a similar argument can be made for WWI, I suppose.

I think THAT makes a big difference. Since WWII, they've been wars of choice. And I think that, more than anything, has degraded our reputation and the morality of our troops.

[elocs]

12. I was draft eligible, but was in the 2nd draft lottery and had #358.

358 out of 365 is probably the most important lottery winner for me. I stayed in college and by the time I graduated, the draft was over. The irony is that I went to college on the GI Bill because my dad was a 100% disabled veteran from his scenic tour through North Africa and Europe in WW II. He only went to school through the 3rd grade, so I made good use of the educational benefits that he never used.

There may be merit for a draft and certainly much more for a period of national service, but could you imagine what Bush would do or would have done with the much larger number of troops available to him through a military draft? How do we guarantee that there is not another Bush waiting to become president in 20 years?

[LeftishBrit]

13. I would agree with you on absolutely everything, except the gun control issue

Even on that, I tend to agree that the main thing is to keep guns away from loonies (and from criminals who may or may not be loony; and out of the hands of kids); but I think that more regulation is needed to achieve that goal than you probably do. Bear in mind that I'm British, and I suppose we do mostly have a different attitude to guns from most Americans.

Apart from that, I agree with every word!