Get off Rangel's rear end....we need this discussion...

[HardWorkingDem]

This is a discussion we need to be having.

Think of it folks: the abolition of the draft is a politicians wet dream. It allows politicians to commit American's to war and allow for the ignoring of citizen complaints by the excuse of, "the person volunteered and knew what he/she was getting into."

Having an all volunteer military allows for all sorts of young people to ignore public service and the fear of sacrifice.

Yes, there are folks who preach on the abilities of an all-volunteer service, but there are plenty of fields for folks to go into that want to avoid the infantry (in the military it is commonly stated it takes five troops in support for one infantry solider).

This is a topic we sorely need to be talking about. Look at how not having a draft has hurt the Democrats: no protesting on college campuses, no protesting by the influential over the drafting of their children and a loss of connection to those that are fighting in these wars unless you happen to have some sort of close tie to individual soldiers (and this is not to say people with no family or friends in the military don't care, only to point out that there is something additional when you have loved ones in the service in a time of war).

[Jed Dilligan]

1. Mandatory mass suicide

great election platform...

I would hole up in my own neighborhood and fight and kill and die rather than let them take me for this war.

[Horse with no Name]

2. It is an uncomfortable discussion

but is seems to be one that is lost on many here. That is what surprises me.

[mike_c]

3. no, this is not a discussion we need....

The war against Iraq is an international crime. We should not be discussing ANY means of continuing it. Congress needs to do its duty and put a stop to this madness without any further political triangulation or equivocation.

[stansnark]

4. amen

if a war is really necessary then rich republicans won't mind sending THEIR kids to fight it, and they won't mind having THEIR taxes raised to pay for it .

[Mythsaje]

5. Absolutely wrong...

All we're doing is talking about ways to allow them to continue their crimes with MORE of our children.

It's like asking whether we should just throw the children of the poor into the mouth of Baal, or if we should throw everybody's children into the mouth of Baal.

Rather than asking if we should thrown ANYONE'S children into the mouth of Baal.

[Erika]

12. They dissed our poor in W's war against the Iraqis

But now you think it should be limited to the poor and let the elitists off the hook. Interesting, indeed.

[Mythsaje]

15. No, I don't think the elitists will ever HAVE to sacrifice

and you damn well know it.

We've had this discussion on other threads, now haven't we? Your argument is that if they expatriate their children to avoid sending them off to die in their wars of acquisition, we can use THAT to point at them and say "See. They're Chickenhawks."

[Erika]

18. They never had to face Charlie Rangel before

He isn't your casper white milquetoast

[w13rd0]

13. How do you expect that discussion to even take place...

...when to paraphrase Kanye West, "George Bush and the GOP don't care about black people, the poor, or the plight of the military"? They won't HAVE the discussion, and neither will the media.

I have a 14 year old son. Do I want him to be drafted? HELL NO. Would I fight it, would I find a way to get him out of it? HELL YES. Do I sound like Rumsfeld? Maybe... But I *NEVER* supported this war, so for me to oppose the drafting of my son to continue it isn't exactly out of character. But when I hear Republican warmongerers that cheered for this war, and argued for us getting into it, when I hear THEM object to a draft, or even to any sacrifice on their part (like raising taxes to support Bush's bloating of the budget), it makes me want to punch them in the mouth and set their house on fire. I am sick to DEATH of those that thirst for WarTainment on the nightly nooz, but risk nothing and sacrifice less than nothing, in the pursuit of the USs illegal actions.

The US population is NOT anti-war, they are against LOSING wars. You want to make them anti-war? Drive home the fact that war requires SACRIFICE, REAL blood and money, THEN maybe you'll get a population more invested in US foreign policy and against military adventurism.

[loyalsister]

34. The US population is NOT anti-war, they are against LOSING wars.

That's a powerful statement. And very true, I think.
Anyone who truly believes that this is a war worth fighting, should support a draft.
They should have supported one from day 1.
They only way we finally find out about that inconsistency is with the hearings that come with a bill like this.

[CarbonDate]

6. Having family or friends in the military....

...makes us real instead of these iconic, larger than life heroes (or monsters, depending on one's ideological bend). It makes them realize that we're just people, like anybody else. I heard a couple of years ago that of all Americans under the age of 65, only 4% have ever served a day in uniform. I think society benefits from the concepts of pride, selflessness, and service that being in the military instills in people. The military certainly isn't for everybody, but I think it's be something that more than just 4% of the population ought to be doing.

Just my $0.02....

[Mythsaje]

7. Look at the damage

they've been able to do with only 4% of our population at their disposal.

[Erika]

9. So make them face it

Enough is enough.

[Mythsaje]

10. I think the American people have already said as much... n/t

[Erika]

16. We'll wait to see if they back the draft n/t

[Erika]

8. Rangel did great. You think the elitists will sacrifice their kids?

No way. These "wars" aren't for the elitists to fight but they will have to battle against their guilt as to why it's OK for the needy to fight but not the rich kids.

Go Rangel!

[Mythsaje]

11. Yet you're perfectly aware

that they have outs we can't even imagine.

[Erika]

14. Rangel has said he will stop those outs

He is a Black Korean vet. I think he knows the steps to stop the elitists from buying their way out of service.

[Mythsaje]

17. They're not playing on the same field as the rest of us...

We can't even verify our fucking elections. Do you think they can't finagle the draft?

[Erika]

20. I trust Rangel

No, he's playing on a different field from the rest of us.

[Mythsaje]

23. Sure...

Got a real cult of personality thing going here, don't we?

It's not about the debate, it's about trusting ONE PERSON to make it all work out right.

Sorry. Not going to happen.

[Erika]

26. What are you talking about?

Rangel speaks for many vets. I do admire Rangel. That makes me a cultist of a Black Korean war vet? LMAO.

[Mythsaje]

29. You do know what "cult of personality" is, don't you?

It's placing an inordinate amount of faith in a person to be able to do something you have no reason to believe he can. Sure, he might be able to write a bill that looks fine on paper that would allegedly close all loopholes, but 'good on paper' doesn't necessarily translate to real world applications.

Could he guarantee that the whole registration process wasn't somehow corrupted? That someone like Diebold wouldn't make a draft lottery machine that's as reliable as the voting machines?

No.

Could he guarantee that things wouldn't be injected into the bill that would give certain people an 'out?'

Nope.

All he can do, finally, is bring it up to public debate and HOPEFULLY fail to see it pass.

I don't want to see anyone's kid sacrificed to give these assholes MORE fodder for their wars of conquest. Right now they're hurting because they know damn well they don't have the warm bodies to go after Iran or Syria or N. Korea. Because they threw all our resources into fucking Iraq.

But you give them a draft, they don't have to worry about recruiting goals. They'll have all the warm flesh they want.

THIS IS STUPID.

[jaysunb]

19. New realities abound !

When I was drafted into the army 42 years ago, the draft was a way of life. Every boy over 18.5 who was not a student , father , or medical reject knew they would get a " greeting " Those with " connections " could expect to get a pass.
The passivity of those days are long gone . Those of my generation will never permit us to return to them....after all, it's our youngest children and grandkids that will be the victims of wars old men want to wage with others lives.

Blessing be upon Rep. Rangel for putting this reality in the spotlight.

[Erika]

21. Amen and stop the escape of the elitists from serving

I was touched by two vets today who said all should serve in the military to change them from boys to men.

They made no comments on women.

[Mythsaje]

22. Oh, yes, because no one is ever a man

unless he serves in the military.

What crap.

[Erika]

25. You call W and Cheney men?

They never served in wartime. So that's crap?

[Mythsaje]

27. How many road must a man walk down

before they will call him a man?

42.

Oh, wait. That's a different answer.

Being trained to kill doesn't make someone a man. Being trained to follow orders or die doesn't make someone a man. Being able to march and sing cadence doesn't make someone a man. So what, exactly, about military service make one a man?

So what makes a woman a woman? Using similar logic?

[Erika]

28. Sorry, still smarting from being called a cultist for backing Rangel

Take it elsewhere.

[jaysunb]

24. I married a WAC

Our 39 year old daughter and her children are about the only good thing positive to come out of my service. heh heh !

[CarbonDate]

30. You know what pisses me off?

People are threatening to push Rangel out of the party over this, but we allow Democrats who support the continued occupation to stay on, and even support some of them as Presidential candidates in 2008.

Our priorities are seriously screwed up. "I got mine"-ism at its worst.

[Mythsaje]

31. I think we're past the point where we're doing ANY good

over there at all.

Being there isn't helping matters.

Get 'em out.

Let them sort it out.

Then we can concentrate on investigating and subpeonaing and tearing down the rat bastards who PUT us there.

[CarbonDate]

33. Agreed. We need to do a couple of things....

...and some of them are even being proposed by Repukes:

1) Engage Iraq's neighbors, the ones who have the largest stake in seeing a stable Iraq.
2) Engage the UN, the ones best qualified to clean up this mess.
3) Dislodge ourselves from Iraq, but offer whatever financial support is needed by the UN and the "Coalition of the Neighbors" to stand Iraq back up into a stable country.

The prospect of leaving it better than we found it is gone. Our best hope is that we can leave without destroying it.

[Mythsaje]

35. Probably the best bets...

The balance of power there was FAR more precarious than most people realized, I think. As much of a bastard as Saddam was, he understood how fragile everything actually was. I can't imagine how he managed to keep all the factions in check for so long.

[lligrd]

37. Exactly, I Will Trust Rangel With My Kid's Life

Over any of those that supported or gave in and voted to allow the chimp the power to start this occupation, anyday!!!

[HardWorkingDem]

42. Good point....nt...

good point

[Jack Rabbit]

32. I am opposed to a draft at this time

As long was US foreign is in the hands of Bush, Cheney and the neoconservatives, there should be no compulsory system to supply them with canon fodder.

Nevertheless, this is a discussion we need to have. There's nothing wrong with that and quite a bit right with it.

[LWolf]

36. NO. Fuck no, I won't "get off Rangle's rear end."

As long as he proposes military conscription, HIS ASS IS MINE, AND MY BOOT WILL STAY FIRMLY IN PLACE.

:nuke:

[HardWorkingDem]

40. So let's see here then....

are you saying then you don't care to have a discussion about a topic that allows our government to do with people what it wants because they have no true voice?

[LWolf]

41. I'm saying that

I am happy to have a discussion that focuses on giving people a true voice and about making sure that our government can't "do what it wants" with anyone at all. I don't believe discussing a draft accomplishes that. I do believe that suggesting that a draft might be possible sets us up for it further down the line, just like suggesting that security might be, in some cases, more important than civil liberties, abortions might be, in some cases, against the law, and so on.

When would you like to begin discussing things like rebuilding domestic infrastructure, instituting universal, single-payer, not-for-profit health CARE, universal public preschool through college/trade school without political use of test scores, clean, safe, affordable housing and neighborhoods for all, employment and a living wage for all, withdrawal from the WTO, repeal of NAFTA/CAFTA, election reform, proportional representation, civil liberties, banning corporate influence in government and campaigns, a right to privacy, a fairness doctrine, re-publicizing all the services that have been privatized over the last generation, and anything else that might help give all people a true voice?

All of those things would make life better for those that don't have a voice. Discussing a draft is a huge distraction from the issues that need to be addressed. The draft is not a legitimate vehicle for change, but another threat. I've been threatened enough. I will not be manipulated by fear, and I will not back off of this one.

[lynne]

38. Discussion? You are kidding, right?

Rangel brought this up for "discussion" in 2004. The vote was 402 - 2 and not even Rangel himself voted for his own bill. Don't you need two sides with opposing opinions to have a discussion and/or debate?

The draft is truly biased against the poor and less educated as the wealthy and privileged can afford college deferments. The poor and less educated cannot.

[caledesi]

39. I think he wants hearings because he wants to expose

* privatization of this war. Rangel is using a loaded issue, the draft, so your average person will watch and listen. They will find out just how this thugs operate.

Rangel is way ahead of us.