I think we should all be willing to serve if needed..

[KennedyGuy]

Otherwise we are no better than those sniviling cowards that we all saw on Hardball a couple weeks ago. Matthews asked all the kids who supported the war to stand..and stand they did. He than asked how many of them would enlist..and the majority of them sat down.
If we do not like the policies of the President..the way to change them is to change the President..
We have already changed the congress..
I always have,,and always will support the military. They are necessary and are performing their jobs supurbly, with the exception of a select few.
Rangel is trying to make a point..don't attack the man because some of you are freaked out about the possibility of having to serve one day.
I have served in the past and currently serve in a Reserve capacity so I personally put my money where my mouth is.
Do I agree with Chimpy and his war? NO..
Would I go to Iraq if called? Absolutly..
Would I enjoy it? No..
But my duty is to my country.
I have been..and continue to be..Proud to Serve.

[The Backlash Cometh]

1. What happened to accountability?

We are fighting the wrong war, remember? It's time to review the reason why we went in the first place, hold those accountable for taking us into the wrong war, and get out to protect the rest of the young men and women in this country.

Why are there so many Dem hawks suddenly showing up on this newsgroup? Anyone else notice it?

[KennedyGuy]

4. I don't consider myself a Hawk at all..

Being pro-military does not make one pro war. A lot of people screaming about the military are awful glad that they are around when needed.
I am definitly anti-war..as are most of the military people I know.
What is your solution?
Granted..we should not have gone..but we cannot just walk out of there.
No problem has ever been solved by making a terrible situation worse.

[The Backlash Cometh]

6. I am not anti-military!

Don't you dare start pulling that right-wing tactic on me. I'm anti-draft and against confusing the public using silly political ploys.

What do I suggest we do? THE DEMS ARE IN POWER. CAPICHE? It means they don't have to resort to ploys to get the job done. If they want to bring attention to the military's plight, THEN DO IT! Rangel is no longer a member of a minority party, and he needs to adjust his tactics accordingly.

[KennedyGuy]

7. I did NOT accuse you of being anti military..

Don't YOU dare put words in my mouth..
and I am certainly no right wing hack..
Get a grip and loose the hysteria.

[The Backlash Cometh]

9. Hysteria is exactly what you'll get from a mother of draftable children.

There is only one way to get out of Iraq with any semblance of closure. We need to hold accountable those who are responsible for committing the crime. Justice is a universal concept.

When you made those comments about anti-military people, I took it very personally because you were responding to my post. I'm not anti-military. I'm just sick and tired of how our country uses our military to try to clean up problems that would have best been resolved diplomatically. It's like using a rag smeared with blood to clean a windshield.

[KennedyGuy]

17. With all due respect Madame..

I ask you to go back and show me where I labeled anyone anti-military. I believe it was you who labeled me a hawk. I can respect your views and opinions, but I don't like being attacked for something I did not say. Any soldier who has been through war will tell you that they are not pro-war..they will also tell you that they are grateful for the support from back home.
No matter how many active duty soldiers I speak to..and this includes some pretty high ranking individuals..they will tell you the same thing..
They toppled Saddam..they accomlished their mission,,they should have been pulled outta there right after that.
Out military has no place re-builiding a country..not what they are trained for that.
I believe two things to be true:
One can indeed be pro-military and anti-war..and can still feel pride in serving..(I consider myself to be in this category)
Just as one can also be anti-war, anti-Bush and still support the troops.
(I assume you fall into this one)
Both are equally patriotic in my view.

[The Backlash Cometh]

25. Anyone who would go to war "if called," at this point is a hawk in my

book. Because there is no way you can claim this war is unfair, but hey, we have to go fight it anyways. That is just a pointless salve. Before you can ever accept a draft, you MUST first hold Bush accountable. BUSH MUST PAY FOR HIS MISTAKE, BEFORE A CHILD IN THIS COUNTRY IS DRAFTED TO FIGHT ANOTHER VIETNAM.

Iraq is a Vietnam war. You just don't stay in a war that is already lost and increase the casualty rates because you can't find an exit strategy. There is no way to justify more American blood spilled over there. You are suggesting that we should continue blowing up innocent people to bring peace to the region? Because they're just going to continue the atrocities until we leave, and we are going to continue with collective punishment. WE HAVE NO PLAN TO WIN THIS WAR.

We must first review what we've done in the last six year, and we must make amends for the disasterous decisions made by our side. Not try to legitimize them by escalating the masacre.

Read what you wrote regarding the anti-militaryism, and tell me how someone can't take that personally.

[No Exit]

40. Call me when our elected officials start SERVING US.

As of now, we have elected officials who are paid with OUR money, who think they are some sort of aristocrat class who are entitled to use US like so many beasts of burden. Their goals while in office: to steal as much as they can and to lord it over as many people as possible.

At the end of their decades-long terms, they are then honored for "years of public service", have numerous monuments and buildings named after them, and then go back and relax at one of their MULTIPLE million-dollar homes which they've acquired through the money they've stolen. For the rest of their lives, they are honored as great statesmen and are called "sir" or "ma'am" by the very people they robbed--or, in the case of the chickenhawks such as Cheney, by the very people WHOSE CHILDREN THEY KILLED FOR NO REASON.

We are serving ENOUGH as it is. Their asking regular Americans, including the youth, to "give service" unpaid, is like a rapist asking his bleeding, terrorized, half-dead victim to get up and get him a drink, "NOW, bitch!"

Fuck slavery. I'm not for it.

[Toots]

95. Why are you so certain our leaving would make it worse and really how much

worse could it get. Over seven hundred Iraqis dead in last three days...Iraqis are saying the US is inspiring the violence. Why are they wrong and you right? Why do you feel you know more about how the oldest civilization on earth can live together than they do?

[RethugAssKicker]

20. YES.. I have noticed... and am analyzing and soaking it in...

before I comment and Raise HOLY HELL around here!

[KennedyGuy]

22. And can you tell me how being a democratic soldier

classifies me as a "hawk".

[The Gunslinger]

38. I for one have noticed it.

I understand peoples different viewpoints on wheather to stay or go. Both sides have valid arguments. But the first step is to hold accountibility for the war crimes of theis administration. We cannot move forward until this is done.

[HughBeaumont]

67. I'm noticing it.

And it's fucked up beyond belief.

It makes me sad. Conscription is in NO way a progressive value.

Then again, there are DUers that are pro-job-offshoring, so nothing really surprises me.

[mike_c]

2. define "if needed...."

If needed to defend America against attack, absolutely. If needed to fight for a cause that there is overwhelming national consensus about, yes. If needed to be the sharp end of a crooked and greedy foreign policy, no, never. If needed to die for oil profits and military profiteers?

[Buzz Clik]

32. Excellent post.

[The Backlash Cometh]

76. Many of us agree on this point.

We'll have to hold strong to make sure the Dem's power does not get co-opted.

[lumberjack_jeff]

85. Yes. Further...

"If needed" to serve as an object lesson in a misguided attempt to coerce the public into support for peace, hell no.

Raise consciousness by discussion, not conscription.

[Auggie]

3. I wouldn't serve in this war or any other for the sake of corporations

[MADem]

5. Matthews LOVES to do that. Only he booked off to the Peace Corps. He never served either.

Now, I did. I come from a family with a history of military service. I get a check every month for that service.

That said, I can understand people not WANTING to go. HOWEVER...I concur that if one does support a war, one should be expected to support it on the front lines, not as a cheerleader.

Here's what's going on with the RANGEL business, frankly:

Anyone who is whining about his stances on the war and the draft are either GOP talking point purveyors, or profoundly obtuse nitwits who haven't been listening to him for the last three years. He is NOT saying anything new. He is saying what he has said since the Monkey decided to go into Iraq.

RANGEL is not going to send kids to Iraq. If a draft happens, it will be a bipartisan vote and the bill will be signed by a GOP president. Those facts are INESCAPABLE.

Rangel is the only adult in this discussion. Someone has to let the American public know that our military is damned near BROKEN, and the Monkey is the one that broke it.

[dchill]

39. I'm not a fan of Matthews...

but I DO consider the Peace Corps to be service. Probably more effective service than carrying an M-16 could provide.

[MADem]

64. It was Champagne Service during the Vietnam era. I also think he was

lucky, and his number was outside the selection window in the year that he was called. I don't believe you could choose PC over uniformed service even if you were a CO, which he wasn't. If you were already in the PC I think they'd grant you a deferment.

[atreides1]

8. Some questions and observations

Do I agree with Chimpy and his war? NO..

That's simple enough to understand


Would I go to Iraq if called? Absolutly..

Now this makes no sense, you don't agree with the war but you would go if you were activated, why?


Would I enjoy it? No..

Okay that's good to know.


But my duty is to my country

Very admirable, but how does serving Bush and fighting in what most consider an illegal war, considered fulfilling your duty to the United States.

The oath is as follows:

"I, (state your name), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States{{, the governor of the state of _______ (for National Guard enlistees)}} and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."


The only duty you would be fulfilling is obeying the orders of the President, but where would you be supporting and defending the Constitution? So far the Patriot Act has passed, which violates some
of the amendments of the Constitution that the military has sworn to support and defend, not exactly fulfilling that duty requirement are they?

Have you ever wondered why the requirement to obey the orders of the President were put after giving your allegiance to the US Constitution? The United States of America exists because of the Constitution, not because of one man. To "bear true faith and allegiance" that's what I'm waiting to see happen.

[Atman]

10. The key word is "NEEDED"

If any other country on this planet decided to invade America to "Liberate" me from George Bush, I'd be the first to take up arms and defend the president and our country. But this is a BUSINESS WAR we're in, a hostile takeover of the assets of another country by a bunch of greedy pigfuckers. Serving your country is a proud, time-honored tradition. Blindly serving a master isn't anyone's "duty," though (which is NOT what I am saying you did/are doing...I'm talking about this specific Iraq clusterfuck).

.

[SutaUvaca]

11. Thank you for your service!

I did too. But had I known in the 60's about that war as much as I know now about this current war, I would have gone to Canada.
I believe in doing your duty to defend our country. I do not believe in fighting some greedy warmongers wars for them. That would be both stupid and IMO un-patriotic.

In 1966 I was naive. In 2006, if my grandchildren were drafted to help Cheneyborg get richer, I would be one of the initiators of a new underground railroad.

[itsmesgd]

12. your duty to this country?

If we are to speak of duty to this country instead of duty to this man (chimpy), I suggest that we employ Jeffersonian means to protect this country from tyrants and the corpofascists. Let us not blindly follow this tyrant, simply because of his title, but let us think about watering this Tree of Liberty to ensure that it stands for generations to come.

[salin]

13. This is the discussion we should have been having before the war vote.

Seriously. The question should have been, is this threat serious enough to commit ourselves, our sons and daughters, our brothers and sisters and/or our parents to fight? There are times that the answer to that question is yes.

My father "dropped out" (or took leave) from college to enlist in WWII before there was a draft.

This war was sold to us with propoganda - and the serious examination which would come with the question of is this a real threat or an optional war - would have happened had their been a national dialogue/conversation regarding our own willingness to commit to such a war. I would venture to guess that there would have been such a willingness for Afghanistan, but not for Iraq.

[Fierce]

14. I agree -- as long as it's national service, and not nec. military service.

nt

[struggle4progress]

47. I'll support that

[no_hypocrisy]

15. What if you can't trust the "leaders" who have the ability to

either assign you to a war theatre based on questionable justification or imprison you if you refuse to comply with your compulsory service? I don't see how you can "serve" if the people you're serving and/or their cause is a vainglorious venture for financial and political gain of an elite.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

16. I'm closing in on 60.

I've served my career in the classroom. I'm done! Stick a fork in me!

[sampsonblk]

18. Amen

nt

[RethugAssKicker]

19. Bull Shit... My duty is NOT TO KILL innocent people unnecessarily.

Fuck that duty to counntry brainwashing.

If called to serve in Iraq, I would not go. I will not commit murder because a foolish President starts an evil war. I will not commit murder because a few madmen are in control of MY country. Killing is not performing a duty to your country!!

[KennedyGuy]

21. It is people like me who make it possible,

for people like you to express an opposing position.
In America..you get your opinion, I get mine.
I stand behind mine with my actions.
You are entitled to stand behind yours.
I do not understand the hostility..
Are military Democrats not welcome here?
As I have said..I am proud of my service. Always was..always will be.

[RethugAssKicker]

23. Never said for you not to be proud.. I simply disagree with you

that it is your duty to kill innocent people just because your President tells you to!. I happen to think that dissent is patriotic and SMARTER than blind faithfulness!

[Buzz Clik]

33. Reel in your paranoia.

You're more than welcome at DU, but your opinion won't be popular with pacifists or those so sick of this war that they're ready to explode.

Bush's approval rating was 90+% in the year after 9/11. He was overwhelmingly supported for his bombing campaign against Afghanistan. Now, the Iraq insanity has dragged him down to around 30%. My point? When it is necessary, the country will back a war with great enthusiasm. Just not this piece of shit.

[treestar]

24. If needed is the operative question. If needed for what?

Hegemony? US Domination? Oil?

[Jed Dilligan]

26. I think the idea is that people are "needed"

to save the asses of the US military already there, never mind how it started, those are OUR BOYS AND GIRLS so we gotta go over there an' help 'em.

I'm not especially nationalistic so I don't really value the life of a US serviceperson over the life of an Iraqi civilian. My likely role in the military, due to my education, would be identifying targets for bombs in cities and villages. So, I very clearly have a reason to refuse if called. Has very little to do with saving my own skin, and everything to do with preserving my cherished "Not A Murderer" status.

[KennedyGuy]

27. All I can say to all this is..

Wow..
Just Wow..
If I were the pessimistic sort, I would wonder why I wear the uniform that symbolizes so much to me.
But..I do know why I wear it..I guess in order to understand, you would have to value it as much as I do.
War dissenters are NOT unpatriotic..
But to call soldiers murderers is simply pathetic.
Keep this kind of crap up and you can look forward to being back in the minority in congress real soon.
Focus on oversight..and holding these in the Administration to account..
But please..lay off the soldiers..they are fighting for all of us, even those who choose not to serve.

[Jed Dilligan]

29. So you're saying

If I go to Iraq and tell the planes where to drop the bombs, the blood of the victims is not on my hands because of the uniform I'm wearing?

How are the soldiers in Iraq fighting for me? In their minds, maybe they are... But everything they do in Iraq makes my country poorer, less safe, and above all, less righteous.

I would be very happy if someone would step-by-step explain to me how professional soldiers in a war of choice are fighting for "my freedom."

[Zhade]

28. I will NOT serve in an illegal war. Period.

I don't do blind obedience to the state's whims. Sorry.

[Raiden]

30. Duty to your country?

I absolutely hate this jingoistic, nationalistic, faux-patriotic bullshit. Fighting in Iraq does not make you any more patriotic than anyone else...I would never EVER join the military unless America was being invaded. So unless Canada or Mexico sends their military over the borders, count me out!

As if military service is a requisite of patriotism. Simple-minded memes like that are what got us into this mess... "Freedom isn't free!" "Support the troops!" "America: Love it or leave it!"

And as the whole Rangel issue: Stupid! Stupid! Stupid! I've addressed this in many threads already. Why would anyone put forth legislation which puts them on the defensive? It's political suicide!

[KennedyGuy]

31. And I will continue to defend your right to cower behind

your keyboard while others do your fighting for you..
I have never been ashamed to be a soldier..
I am however ashamed at the moment to be a member of DU.
I am sure what you all mean to say to the soldiers who have died and to their families is THANK YOU.
THANK YOU for fighting and dying for me so that I can sit here safely at home and call you Faux patriots and murderers. You should be ashamed.
Good Lord..the mere notion of some of you having to serve and put your money where your mouths are is enough to send you into a bedwetting frenzy.
Relax..change your underwear..don't be so scared..you will be able to stay home..we will fight your battles for you.
We believe in something.

[Buzz Clik]

34. You need to back off.

A lot of DUers wore the uniform proudly but still do not support this war.

[KennedyGuy]

36. and you need to back off

I do NOT support the war..just the uniform..
Read my posts..take a breath..then react.

[Buzz Clik]

41. I'm not the one calling people cowards.

You are, and you need to back off. I wore the uniform, as did every male in my family. Yes, there are people here who have no respect for the uniform, but one could argue the same for the Bush administration.

[KennedyGuy]

42. I am the one who was labelled a murderer..

for the unimaginable crime of supporting the troops and not the war,
Get over it.

[Buzz Clik]

54. I haven't seen where someone called you a murderer, but...

... you can't miss where you called those who oppose the draft "cowards" -- it's in the first sentence of your opening post.

You came here looking for trouble, and you found it. The way I see it, you're getting exactly what's coming to you.

Have fun, flame bait.

[KennedyGuy]

55. Bring it on..

Learn to read..think a little..
you MAY learn something.
You are just the type who may benifit from service.

[Buzz Clik]

57. You ever read your own threads, Ace?

Christ, you're flaming the hell out of me, but you don't read my responses? I already told you -- I was in the military. As was/is every male member of my family. We have a Marine who has put in 20 months in that sandbox shithole called Iraq. What's your story, tigger?

Get your goddam thumb out of your mouth, and bring your head back to daylight. Your petty, childish insults serve nothing and no one but most certainly destroy any possibility of you maintaining a reasonable argument.

I will not "bring it on" because you are not deserving of one calorie of energy from me.

[Raiden]

65. Just who labelled you a murderer?

Persecution complex? Maybe?

[Downtown Hound]

46. Let's get one thing straight

You are not fighting for me, so stop saying that you are. If you were, I would support you 100%. Many of my family are veterans, so don't think for a minute I don't appreciate the sacrifice. I don't blame you for the fact that there is a war in Iraq. All soldiers have my compassion for the suffering they have endured for the mad policies of this president.

But stop saying that you are protecting me by fighting in Iraq. Iraq posed no threat to my freedom. They posed no threat my life. They posed no threat to my right to speak out. Bush poses that threat. Bush is the one that has destroyed the constitution. Bush is the one that has raped this planet and its environment and created a climate of fear and hate. And what is he backed by? Oh yeah, the military. At this point in time, you are not protecting the freedom of Americans, and as long as you continue to follow Bush's order's, you are in fact, a threat to our freedoms and our livelihoods. And guess what? I am not proud of our military right now. Every life they take in Iraq is an act of murder. Iraq had done nothing to us. Our invasion of them was a criminal, illegal, and barbaric act. The war crimes committed by our forces there have left me with a deep feeling of shame. Now if that is a bitter pill for you to swallow and causes you pain, I am truly sorry. I really am. It's not my intention to hurt you or piss you off.

But I'm not going to lie to you either. If you under the impression that you are dying for my freedom, think again. If are under the impression that what you are doing in Iraq is good for us or our nation, think again. If you are under the impression that you are fighting this battle for me, think again. This is not my battle. It's not yours either. It shouldn't be anyone's. It shouldn't be happening.

So do not come to me and tell me I should be willing to serve in it or that I need to put my money where my mouth is. I have never put my mouth behind this war. This war has made me ashamed to be an American. If you choose to participate in it, then you have my compassion. You do not have my gratitude. If you and your fellow soldiers were to stand up to Bush and refuse to fight his criminal wars for him, then you have my gratitude.

[Buzz Clik]

58. Great post, but this grunt is posting nothing but flame bait.

He's not interested in discussion. He's feeling sorry for himself that noboby loves him or thinks he looks cool in his dress blues -- or is it whites?

I'm done with this whiner.

[KennedyGuy]

70. Cry me a river bub

Who would have guessed that supporting the troops would be greeted with such animosity.
Some of you just do not like opposing positions.
No one will ever change your minds.
Rather than engaging in debate, it is far easier for some to stick their fingers in their ears, stop listening..and scream troll..flame bait.
Learn how to debate..
It will help you in life.

[troubleinwinter]

48. Who is "we"?

"...others do your fighting for you"

No, this is not my fight, nor is the fighting for me. This is for the benefit of the neocons and war profiteers.

"I am sure what you all mean to say to the soldiers who have died and to their families is THANK YOU for fighting and dying for me"

No, I am sorry for the fighting and loss of life for the benefit of those mentioned above. No one has died for me.

"we will fight your battles for you."

It is not my battle. It is others', as stated above.

"We believe in something"

So do I. I believe our soldiers must only be asked to fight in war as necessary for the defense of our nation, not the sick ideology of lies for profit and power.

[Sparkly]

52. I'm right there with you, KennedyGuy.

Stick around.

I'm anti-war, I'm socialist at heart, and I know exactly what you're saying.

This is all an amazing revelation about "where we are," isn't it? Incredible.

It seems sometimes the whole country's lost perspective!

"Have to have my gun, in case we get into a civil war here with the Fundies and Freepers!"
"Gotta be ready for the revolution!!"
"Can't back down, no retreat and no surrender, unless you're talking about this domestic pet peeve I have..."

It's so taken for granted that we even have the freedoms we do, the votes we do, the government we do -- yes, being corrupted more and more lately... And the answer to the corruption is so short-sighted.

NO vision of what corruption is in other countries. NO vision of the fact that we could become them. NO vision of the death and bloodshed that established and developed this democracy. NO appreciation of what it takes, where we were only a few generations ago, and what it's taken to GET here... In essence, NO sense of the fact that it all involves SACRIFICE. It involves SERVICE. It involves physical RISK and COURAGE; it involves the willingness to die, and the willingness to kill.

It does.

What we enjoy now, and take for granted, is the result of the willingness to die and to kill. It's the result of our willingness to sacrifice. I think there's a large proportion of American citizens now who've forgotten that, since the draft ended. They imagine it's just as it is here, and always will be, and maybe always was (?!).

They don't seem to realize that there is NO PACIFISM without a BIG STICK. Sorry! That's human nature. There is NO great United States of America -- as we know it even now, even in the terrible state we're in -- without the sacrifices of our military, both the recent volunteers and the former conscripted fighters and the volunteers before them...

It sickens me to see this so-called "leftist, socialist, pacifist" IDIOCY with a blind eye, and rhetoric against, what makes our (leftist, socialist, pacifist) views possible.

It's SACRIFICE. It's the MILITARY. It's STRENGTH economically, militarily, politically, diplomatically, and in terms of intelligence (the evil CIA). It's every citizen doing their patriotic DUTY.

This brand of so-called "leftism," "socialism," or "pacifism" is vapid, sophomoric idealism (sophomoric in the sense that they don't realize it's idealism). We wouldn't have what we do today without the sacrifices, risks, injuries, and deaths of people like you. Like spoiled children with an inborn sense of "entitlement," many just don't have the perspective to GET it -- especially, I'm beginning to believe, since 1972.

Keep posting, and know you're not alone!!

[KennedyGuy]

56. Thank you Sparkly..

That is the perspective that the troops need to hear..
I speak to many active duty troops..either just back from Iraq, or about to go. I am also a paralegal and one of my duties is to assist the men in getting all of their legal work in place in the event that they do not return.
It is a sobering task.
No soldier has ever objected to someone being anti-war, but they see a need to modify the debate.
State you case logically, object tot he war and make it clear that you are a pacifist, or objector..fine no problem. But the debate gets nowhere fast when you look at a soldier and scream "Murderer..you don't fight for me" Anti-war folks can make their political points on political grounds but not dancing on the graves of the men and women who are dying for their right to state their opinions.
I don't get why some in the Democratic party does not seem to get that.
As I have said before, and many who have served woll agree..any soldier who has seen war..is anti-war.

[Raiden]

68. Exactly how is fighting in Iraq defending my rights?

Don't fucking act like you did me any favors; I NEVER supported this goddamn war of choice, and I would never expect to send anyone against their will to fight for a cause they do not support.

"Serve and put your money where your mouths are"

What the fuck are you even talking about? In order to "put our money where our mouths are" we'd have to have supported this war all along. You aren't fighting my battles for me, so don't flatter yourself. The War in Iraq was never my battle for anyone to fight.

And yes, it is faux-patriotism to believe that only in war are patriots made. Patriotism is so much more than blindly supporting militarism; patriotism includes above all else, making sure that what your country does is right and just. As long as we are in Iraq, we are ALL guilty. I never called you or any soldier a murderer (well, except the rare torturers, rapists, and criminals in our military we've occasionally read about, but I blame the leadership for that above anyone else). I never would. But don't, for one second, assume that wearing a uniform will protect you when you make dumbass statements like you're fighting for my rights. You do what you have to do, but do not implicate me in your little games. Never did I support this war. Not for one second would I have even considered asking a soldier's parents to sacrifice their child to fight for me. If it ever came to that, I would sign up immediately. That's where I differ from the chicken-hawks.

If you want people to put their money where their mouths are, I suggest you go over to freerepublic.com; they sure aren't doing anything productive.

[IndianaGreen]

35. Your first duty is to the Constitution, not the American Fuehrer

I took an oath to the Constitution, not the Commander-in-Chief, and I am glad that Bush was not President at the time because I would have deserted.

I wouldn't have served in Hitler's Wehrmacht anymore than I would serve in Bush's military.

[dchill]

37. Would I go to Iraq if called?

And kill innocent Iraqi civilians?

NO.

[survivor999]

43. Good for you. And good luck.

[Recursion]

44. One Marine's perspective

I've walked the streets of Fallujah and Al Quut with a carbine. I've put my life in the hands of the Marine behind me. I don't want that Marine to be somebody that was dragged out of his life against his will. If I'm trusting him to cover the fatal front and the far corner when we storm a room, I need to know he chose to do this like I did, and wasn't just unable to get a deferment.

Now, some kind of "national service draft" in general? I suppose I'm open to the idea, as long as there are available escape clauses for religious and philosophical objectors. We do need teachers, for instance. And nurses. And doctors. And lawyers. And... etc. What I won't do is ask the Marines who are coming after me to put their lives in the hands of someone who didn't volunteer to be there. Drafted combat troops is a non-starter.

[KennedyGuy]

45. I agree with you completly Marine..

Glad you made it back in one piece. Your service and efforts and those of your fellow soldiers is greatly appreciated.

[Buzz Clik]

59. You've suddenly changed your mind?

You start off saying that anyone opposed to a draft is a coward, but this honorable Marine says he isn't sure, and suddenly you're in total agreement with him?

Flaming. Baiting. Ass kissing. What a joke.

[KennedyGuy]

69. L.E.A.R.N. to read

perhaps you can get someone to draw you a nice picture..
Being opposed to anything in the USA is not unpatriotic.
Get your haed out of where ever it is and READ
I am not afraid of a confrontation with you, I can assure you.

[Buzz Clik]

72. Let me draw you a picture, with your own words:

You said:

"I think we should all be willing to serve if needed. Otherwise we are no better than those sniviling cowards that we all saw on Hardball a couple weeks ago... But my duty is to my country."

"...And I will continue to defend your right to cower behind your keyboard while others do your fighting for you."

but dmseg said:

Now, some kind of "national service draft" in general? I suppose I'm open to the idea, as long as there are available escape clauses for religious and philosophical objectors...Drafted combat troops is a non-starter.

dmseg CLEARLY states that he does NOT favor drafting combat troops, and suddenly you agree with him? What a crock.

Don't lecture me about being able to read when you cannot even remember your own words or bother to read the words of others.

I think you've found your calling, and I suggest you stick with it. Clearly, the written word is beyond your reach.

[Sparkly]

50. I know what you're saying...

And I do agree with the idea of national service that need NOT be military service. I appreciate the needs you wrote about.

However, I also know that IF it were ever required (and let's hope it never is!), our drafted forces have done damned well. I think the training process makes certain that you could put your life in the hands of someone who didn't volunteer to be there.

[Sparkly]

49. You used the word "duty."

I think that word's become lost in the national vocabulary.

[madfloridian]

51. No.

Vietnam changed things. Many of us here who are older saw another war that was based on lies, and they kept saying we would win if we just stayed a while.

58,000 men died. They were mostly honorable men doing what their country wanted.

But Vietnam changed things. Our sons were in the first generation to escape the draft when it ended in the early 70s.

People were eager to sign up for Iraq, they were patriotic and honorable. If it had been a war fought for real reasons, there would still be many signing up.

No more.

[puebloknot]

53. I'm a soldier's daughter. He was at Normandy and the Battle of the Bulge.

I'm not a blind pacifist. I know the need for a strong military, in service to a legitimate and moral government.

My father and I once talked, during Vietnam, about the idea of a soldier refusing to serve an unjust and criminal cause. He had concerns that it would destroy the military if people refused to serve and carry out orders because they have an objection to the merits of a given conflict.

But I had to ask him: "What was Nuremberg about? Didn't we hold them accountable for just following orders?"


I have never been called on to serve in the military. I haven't had to make the kind of decision you have. But I feel, very strongly and very sincerely, that we have to evolve as a universal people on this planet to a point where no one will serve in an illegal war. My country, right or wrong? I don't think we can afford that in the nuclear age.

With respect for your service and your viewpoint,

Judy Barrett

[Sturmrabe]

61. EXCELLENT post!

Good stuff!

If you arn't willing to stand up and fight you are going to lay down and take it. Pacifism is contrary to human nature, and the only reason some can afford the decadence of pacifism is others fight and die to give them that right.

If you are a true pacifism, move to Tibet, because this and every other country is founded and maintained by violence, and every time you pay your taxes you fund it.

Reality Check.

[Buzz Clik]

62. errrr... Are you sure you read her post?

[puebloknot]

96. Well, my point was...

basically that I think there is always a call to question whether a war is just or not, before standing up to fight. That's highly idealistic, and I realize it. Sometimes, young people don't realize until they're in the middle of a war that it isn't as glorious and righteous as they were led to believe.

Just as I don't believe in blind pacifism, even more I do not believe in blind loyalty to a country without examining the reality of its policies.

We are first and always human beings before we are members of a tribe. It's one of the hardest lessons we have to learn in our various journeys through time on the Earth!

[Evergreen Emerald]

60. there is an understanding between those in charge and those who serve

Those who serve will put their very lives on the line for their country. And in doing so put their lives and the lives of their families in the hands of the government.

Those in charge are to respect that magnificent sacrifice and protect it by only using that commitment for grave threats against our country.

Bu*h and his cohorts knew of the sacrifice and knew of the understanding--and did not care. They broke their end of the bargain when they used those brave and patriotic citizens for their own ends...lying, stealing, cheating to get us--and keep us--into war.

Until there is someone in office and in Congress, who will honor that understanding there is no way in hell I will risk my life or allow my child to risk her life for those evil people who would not even respect the sacrifice.

[PVnRT]

63. Bored?

Spare us the flamebait, troll.

[HughBeaumont]

66. Even if the cause is mercenary, immoral and illegal?

"Do I agree with Chimpy and his war? NO.."

Yes you do.

Because you wouldn't have called people who protest this war, genuinely support our military and would never serve under a reprehensible son of privilege "cowards" if you didn't.

This debacle isn't anyone's fight except a pissypants Caligula's who has a chip on his shoulder and defense corporation shareholders to answer to.

[KennedyGuy]

71. I have pretty much said my piece..

I will move along to other threads. I think this debate has illustrated a good point.
I know how incensed I was when I spoke out against the war and was labeled by the Rethuglican party as "Unpatriotic" and "Treasonous".
I thought that was appalling..and wrong.
I feel no better about supporting the troops on this board and being labeled as "flame bait" and "troll".
Think what you like..I have been a member here for a very long time..I just usually do not post much.
Some of you need to learn how to debate with a little less emotion and a bit more passion.
The guy fighting over in the desert deserves your support, he generally has little regard for the politics of the issue. Many cannot tell you who Donald Rumsfeld is. The soldier is doing his job and deserves our respect.
Attacking the policies of this Horrid Administration is valid and very American, attacking the soldiers is not. Unless, like in the cases of Abu Garib and other heinous instances, they have behaved badly.
I like to think that I am the calibur of soldier who would have reported those instances, like the vast majority of soldiers, rather than the type to participate in them.
Now having said that..
I am as guilty as others, for allowing my emotional attatchment to this issue to become evident in my words.
That was not my original intent.
Perhaps I mis-read some things..
I believe in Honor and respect, and I realize that there are times in this thread where I have been overly harsh.. if I have offended anyone, I apoligize..
But..I steadfastly stand by my convictions and it saddens me to see our men and woman attacked.
To be clear, in case some of you have missed it..
I oppose a draft..
I oppose the war..
I support the soldiers..
I am proud to serve..
I support your right NOT to serve.
I, myself, was a pacifist and very opposed to the military until I entered my 30's, so I can understand a lot of the views being expressed.
But upon entering the military, I found a world of respect and dedication of service and a strength within me that I had, until that time, not known had existed. It has made me a better man.

[Buzz Clik]

73. Of for crissakes. You can't even decide where you stand.

After all this shit slinging about how we should serve if needed, now you decide you oppose the draft? After calling everyone who opposes "serving when needed" cowards and demeaning those who flatly refuse to serve, suddenly you support their right to not serve? Pure bullshit.

I don't know what the hell your game is, but it has nothing to do with consistency.

[KennedyGuy]

74. I think your words and my words..

Will more than speak for themselves.
Your seeming inability to accept a gracious apology is evident, but non-the-less, if you wish to intelligently debate the issue I can..
If you look at my original post..you will see a little word.
The word, in case you missed it, is "willing"..as in willing to serve.
To my knowledge, there is nothing "willing" about a draft.
I also remember saying in my original post that the college Republicans who SUPPORTED the war and then refused to serve were cowards and I stand back that.
There is nothing wrong with a non supporter of the war choosing not to serve.
How is being willing to serve and opposed to being forced to serve inconsistant
Explian please..or would you prefer to simply continue yelling?

[Buzz Clik]

90. That was an apology? I didn't recognize it, but I'll accept it.

[KennedyGuy]

91. I could personally care less if you accept it or not..

My responsibility was to clean up my side of the street.
I really don't care how you take it or if it was apology enough for you.
If you are not man enough, (or woman enough, your profile is not gender specific) to accept it then thats your problem.
You are an amusing little person but I am rather bored with you..
Go away now...
and when you get a chance..Thank a Veteran for your freedom to spout such gibberish.

[Buzz Clik]

93. LOL! "I have pretty much said my piece ... but, you over there! F**k you!"

You're having a hard time making the edges of your argument match up:

• "If you oppose the draft, you're a coward. But I don't support having a draft."
  
• "You don't acknowledge and respect my efforts to protect you while you cower behind your cower behind your keyboard, but you don't have to support the military. That's okay with me."
  
• "I apologize for my statements, but all of you can kiss my rosy red ass!"

:rofl:

This thread should be moved to The Lounge.

[KennedyGuy]

94. Are you still here?

I have said my piece on the topic..
I always have time to deal with the likes of you..
Hasn't anyone squished you yet?
Crawl away now..
go on..scoot.
You are a funny little person.
Still haven't learned to read I see.
I can outlast 50 of the likes of you.
Are you sure you're not a closet freeper?
Most Du'ers can comprehend the written word.

[survivor999]

75. The ONLY ethical serving scenario (if there is one) is

When/if the country is under attack. Everything else is bullshit rationalization. Arguing that we are at war and that Iraq had something to do with it is bullshit rationalization. Soldiers who are there are there because they had to (that's their job and they have mortgages like everyone else, kids to send to school and so on). And now they have to come up with whatever rationalization they can to give meaning to the ongoing situation. Completely understandable. But it does not mean that the rest of us have to believe that propaganda crap about "serving". Most civilians in the US "serve" each day, often in many more useful and productive ways than any soldier stuck in Iraq. That's the way things really are, IMO.

[Downtown Hound]

77. If you had said those things at the beginning

you wouldn't have had a problem. But you basically started this thread attacking those opposed to a draft, essentially calling them cowards for not wanting to fight an illegal war. Not okay. Now here you are saying you support our right not to serve. You did a complete about face, and are now denying that you did.

And understand one thing, being opposed to the Iraq War goes far beyond pacifism. I am not a pacifist. It's about what is just and right. Invading a small nation that spends as much on defense in a year as we do in a month for no reason other than to steal their oil and give rebuilding contracts to Bush's friends (yes, that was what it was about, not freedom, not WMD, not democracy) is not just. You think because you wear a uniform that you are the only one who believes in something? I believe in justice. I believe in human decency. I believe in the right of all human beings to be free and secure in their livelihoods from acts of war and aggression. And that includes the Iraqi people, who have suffered beyond words at the hands of our military, people just like you who placed duty to one's government over duty to their fellow human beings.

Ask yourself this, why have so many people had to suffer so much just so you can feel good about yourself? What price have they paid so that you could find, "a world of respect and dedication of service and a strength within you" that you didn't know you had? How many have died so that you could be a better man?

I hope it was worth it. I'm not sure the families of the 600,000 Iraqis killed would agree.

[KennedyGuy]

78. I did say that in the beginning..

Go back and READ the original posts..
It CLEARLY says that the college republicans who SUPPORTED the war and sat down when asked to serve were the cowards. I NEVER said that those who opposed the war were cowards for opting not to serve. I cannot make it any clearer for you.
here are my words:
"Otherwise we are no better than those sniviling cowards that we all saw on Hardball a couple weeks ago. Matthews asked all the kids who supported the war to stand..and stand they did. He than asked how many of them would enlist..and the majority of them sat down"
You either will not or cannot understand.
I do not know how else to label someone who SUPPORTS the war yet refuses to serve, but as a coward.
At least some one who OPPOSES the war and refuses to serve is being consistant and therefore is no coward.

[Downtown Hound]

81. Bullshit

"Rangel is trying to make a point, don't attack the man because some of you are freaked out about the possibility of having to serve one day."

That's a statement that totally implies cowardice. Basically what you're saying there is you're the big manly man because you're already wearing the uniform and we're not. As for the Matthews incident, he asked the students who SUPPORTED THE WAR to remain standing if they intended to join the military. But then you come here, to DU, where we don't support the war, and say we are the same as them. We're not.

I call attention to your post #31. "The mere notion of you having to serve and put your money where your mouths are is enough to send you into a bedwetting frenzy."

Where are our mouths? Are we gung ho on this war? Are we the ones who started it? Or have many of us been trying to stop it since before it even began, even going to jail over it as I have done?

Spin it all you want, your words are there for everyone to see.

[KennedyGuy]

84. And..in case you missed it..

I apologized for those words because they were spoken out of anger..
I will not continue to apologize for them..
I will leave it to the DU Members to decide for themselves if it is the bigger man the one who apologizes..
or is it the person refuses to accept it and continues to attack.
I think I'll make out OK.

[Downtown Hound]

89. You apologized for being "overly harsh,"

in the midst of saying that is was now okay to refuse to serve while all through this thread you were saying the exact opposite. If you were apologizing for that, then your apology is accepted. However, you'll forgive me for pointing out your glaring inconsistencies in the midst of a very vague apology. Such an apology doesn't strike me as being very heartfelt, but rather half-assed. If you meant to say something along the lines of,

"I apologize for implying you are bedwetters for refusing to fight in a war you deem to be unjust and immoral. I apologize for stating that you believe in nothing while I believe in something because I wear a uniform. I apologize for putting words in your mouth and calling you pacifists and people who don't understand the nature of the world simply because you don't support THIS war. I apologize for equating you with the same chickenhawks that appeared on Chris Matthews."

Well then, apology accepted.

[survivor999]

79. What "better man"?

Most of these soldiers have PTSD or some other mental problems when they get back... In what sense are they "better men"? Nonsense.

[KennedyGuy]

80. (sigh)..

There is a difference between service..
and War.
War is good for no one..
I believe Service is good for all.

[survivor999]

82. Fine, we are all serving, one way or the other.

Some are told what to do and enjoy the kind of rigid discipline found in the military. Most serve as civilians, just by being good members of the community and dealing with the painful ambiguity of having to choose every day, instead of being told what to do by their superiors.

[KennedyGuy]

83. Agreed..

The military certainly is not the only way to serve your country.

[Daylin Byak]

86. I will never serve

Forget my country, my mom and my family comes first and I will not be sent in the army to die, if that happens my mom will have no one and she will die a sad broken woman.

I love my mom and my family too much to have this happen, she already lost a husband(my dad), she will not lose her only son. If you want to say that i'm unpatriotic for not joining the army then so be it.

[survivor999]

87. Your family is the only REAL part of society

you have. So, it makes perfect sense that you feel that way. I'll never make anyone suffer for an ABSTRACT principle (such as "country"). Never. First come individual people I interact with. Those are the reality. Everything else is a bunch of constructs whose ontological status is dubious at best.

[FreeStateDemocrat]

88. I'll serve the same duty posts with Bush and Clinton brats or defend the honky tonks of Alabama.

[Zavulon]

92. Not under this CinC, thanks.

I served in Clinton's military. I wouldn't serve in Bush's.

[ProudDad]

97. This thread proves again that...

the military is a cult...


--------------------------

That's the opinion I drew as the son of a Naval officer who found his pacifist/socialist nature while attending the U.S. Naval Academy -- and promptly resigned...

To quit the cult is the height of patriotism!