Libertarians, are they lover's of freedom , or....

[left of center]

are they just selfish?!

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

1. It has been said of Libertarians

that they are just Republicans who want to smoke pot.

[Efilroft Sul]

23. Libertarians:Republicans as Greens:Democrats.

At best, Libertarians and Greens are the respective foils to the big two parties. At worst, they're just adjectives. Nothing will come from either movement except the rare event when a candidate sucks enough votes away from the major party candidate he or she is foiling to cause that major party candidate to lose an election.

[electron_blue]

2. and are pro-choice, pro-NRA, anti-restrictions of most kinds

I don't see them as selfish, just as people who want the government out of their personal life.

Or are you giving us only those two choices? ;)

[Deja Q]

4. They are tantamount to anarchists.

They'd say government should stay out of the killing of a person if it affected their lives somehow.

[left of center]

5. Most seem selfish

Whenever cooperating for the greater good comes up, many libertarians scoff that it is more government and is inherently bad. They seem to have great faith in corporations and the free market though. It's like a religious faith, it's so strong.

[spillthebeans]

8. They don't like the NRA and prefer GOA or JPFO

GOA=Gun Owners of America.
JPFO=Jews for the Preservation of Firearm Ownership

[Deja Q]

3. Selfish. Even Republicans are better. By leaps and bounds.

[mac56]

6. A great essay:

"Libertarianism Makes You Stupid"

http://sethf.com/essays/major/libstupid.php

[bowens43]

7. Libertarians are republicans with no moral compass.

[jarab]

9. Succinctly accurate. eom

...O...

[Donald Ian Rankin]

28. Surely Republicans are Republicans with no moral compass?

So where's the difference?

More seriously, I would say thay libertarians are one of the best examples of why it's a mistake to try and work an ideology out from first principles, without checking your results against reality at each stage. They're more idealistic than either Republicans or Democrats, and less realistic, and hence will never achieve anything, and their ideals are daft, in any case.

[The Magistrate]

37. An Excellent Point, Mr. Rankin

[mac56]

10. A great quote from Geoff Eddy

http://www.cix.co.uk/~morven/libertarian.html

"Of the two types of liberty - personal and corporate - which libertarians claim to support, it is corporate liberty which is more important to most libertarians. This is plain from the contempt with which they regard liberals, the main political grouping which supports personal liberty - (their) contempt often indistinguishable from the hate-filled rantings of the likes of Ann Coulter. It also follows logically from the fact that, whenever personal and corporate liberty are in conflict, corporate liberty will always supersede personal liberty - for the simple reason that, in the absence of government, corporations have more power than individuals. In this context, libertarianism is essentially an extreme form of free-market capitalism which pays lip-service to individual liberty."

[left of center]

11. corporations are amoral and souless

There is an old saying that says it well.

A corporation doesn't have an ass to kick or a soul to send to hell!

[madmusic]

12. Libertarians were the only party...

That solidly stood up against the American pseudo-Nazi eugenics program in the Progressive Era. And the Catholics were the only steadfast religion to do so. That may have been enough to prevent a real Holocaust here in the States.

[mac56]

13. Well, I'm glad for them doing that.

And Lincoln, a Republican, freed the slaves.

Your point?!

[madmusic]

15. No point...

Just trying to get you to be a smart ass. Congratulations!

:rofl:

[mac56]

17. Proud of ourselves, are we?!

We do enjoy our little fun.

[madmusic]

19. Yes "we" do...

There was a point, actually, and it had something to with stereotyping and prejudice and tolerance and the possibility that there are individuals within groups of people, so we shouldn't prejudge. You you know, all the stuff Democrats/liberals/and progressives used to brag about before they got self-righteous and hypocritical.

Back to your regularly scheduled programs that is a rerun after rerun after rerun.

[mac56]

20. Yeah, it's bad to prejudge those who prejudge.

:banghead:

[bluedogyellowdog]

36. The Libertarian Party didn't exist until 1972

so I don't think they had anything to do with opposing anything back in the 1890s.

[jgraz]

14. Depends on the Libertarian

I know many people who call themselves Libertarians. Some are indistinguishable from hard-core progressives except for their support of gun ownership. Others define themselves completely through their fight against government control of people's lives: they are rabidly pro-choice, pro-drug and anti-PATRIOT act. These are the kinds of Libertarians that I can get behind.

On the other hand, there are Libertarians who believe that they are under no obligation to pay taxes or help out those less fortunate than they are. I actually had one of my coworkers tell me that requiring him to pay income taxes was analogous to slavery. And not just "theoretical" slavery -- he actually compared his plight to a 19th century African forced to work on a plantation.

Libertarians like this are simply spoiled, selfish assholes. Most are white, upper-middle-class, twenty-something males who won the sperm lottery yet think they earned everything they have. All they see is that they want to keep more of "their" money, especially if it's going to go to someone they see as inferior.

I usually end up encouraging these Libertarians to exercise their freedom to emigrate to a country with no income tax. Like Somalia. Or Iraq.

[left of center]

18. all things are "coercive"

I recently made the comment to a coworker that starting elementary school kids with a second language like Spanish and introducing them to another language in high school would be a good idea. His response was that he disagreed on account of such action being "coercive".

Well,... that sounded like a strange thing to say. After talking a while with him, I discovered that he was really into all things libertarian. The way he spoke was creepy in that it reminded me of communists on college campus who would use jargon unique to their own political philosophy that was damn near incomprehensible to the rest of us.

I'll add that before this conversation, my take on him was that he had narcissistic tendencies. Kind of makes sense now!

[Solon]

38. The Proletariat shall overthrow the Bourgeoisie!

Bwahahahahah!!!!!!! :P

[benEzra]

24. Good point.

I know many people who call themselves Libertarians. Some are indistinguishable from hard-core progressives except for their support of gun ownership. Others define themselves completely through their fight against government control of people's lives: they are rabidly pro-choice, pro-drug and anti-PATRIOT act. These are the kinds of Libertarians that I can get behind.

Most I've ever met have been like this.

There's also a distinction between "Libertarian" (member of the Libertarian party) and "libertarian" (person with a high view of individual civil liberteries and personal autonomy).

[ripple]

16. People with a nostalgic view of archaic social standards

And usually republican voters.

[Kelly Rupert]

21. Tools n/t

[baldguy]

22. Enablers for corporate fascists.

[wicket]

25. They're Republicans who want to smoke pot and have their hookers

:P

[Lydia Leftcoast]

26. Selfish fantasists who imagine a world where they can do anything they want

As such, they coincidentally overlap with the behavioral liberals on abortion, gay rights, and abolition of the drug war, but with the NRA on gun control. Do not be fooled. Being a liberal is a lot more than behavioral issues..

The libertarians are for privatization of everything, including public utilities and highways, so that if you can't afford something, too bad. They are for no limits on business and no protections for workers. Their philosophy is that if the workers don't like the working conditions, they can find another job. (This lack of knowledge of the real world betrays their origins in the suburban brat class.)

As far as they are concerned, the only functions of government are to run the military and the police force, both of which they know they'll need when the peasants revolt.

To see economic libertarianism in action, visit the Third World hellhole of your choice. You will find no government services, absolute misery for the masses, and the rich living in well-guarded enclaves, enjoying the best money can buy, hiring dozens of servants for next to nothing, paying little or nothing in taxes, and being able to call upon death squads if it looks as if the masses are going to object. Even in a famine or natural disaster, they import food and other necessities from abroad. Obviously, the libertarians see themselves living in the well-guarded enclave, not in the tin and cardboard shack next to the open sewer.

[benEzra]

29. I think you are talking about Libertarians (capital "L")...

I would make a distinction between "Libertarian" (member/supporter of the Libertarian party) and "libertarian" (a person with a high view of individual civil liberties and personal autonomy). What you describe, I'd call "capital L" Libertarian, as in the political party. But you can also describe a libertarian streak in politics/idealogy that pertains to individualism vs. collectivism, or libertarian as the opposite of authoritarian. There are a lot of Dems that I would describe as libertarian (small L)--post-Enlightenment individualist, anti-nanny-state, pro-choice on responsible gun ownership, and to me those are Very Good Things.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

31. The term "nanny state" is right-wing speak, and we have NEVER had anything

like the welfare systems that are standard in Europe. Having a "nanny state" is hardly a danger in this country, where the prevailing mood is, "You're on your own, buddy."

Small "l" libertarians to me are the yuppie types who go to pro-choice and gay rights rallies and maybe want to save the whales and the rain forests, but who express very illiberal sentiments on political and economic matters, such as "Unions have too much power" or "We need school vouchers" or "I really need my SUV" or "those homeless people are just lazy."

[benEzra]

34. Oh yes?

I guess you haven't participated in any ban-smoking, ban-video-games, tax-bad-for-you-foods, no-risk-taking-allowed, criminalize-everything-I-don't-like threads recently. Supporters of such policies are a minority here on DU, but they are a damn vocal minority...

The attitude that the government exists to protect you from yourself by making your personal life choices for you is what is generally characterized as the "nanny state" attitude here on DU. I don't know how the term is used in Europe or how it originated, but that is how the term is most commonly used here on DU, and that is how I use it.

I don't smoke, but I support the right to CHOOSE to smoke, or to congregate with other smokers in a bar (though I'd be OK with mandatory air-quality standards for restaurant nonsmoking sections). I don't do cannabinoids, but I think that should be an adult's choice, and strongly support medicinal marijuana. I don't play Grand Theft Auto, but I don't think it needs to be restricted, and I let my young kids play Halo multiplayer as long as they don't shoot each other. I don't drink, but don't think drinkers should be made to feel lower than teetotalers. I oppose the Patriot Act. I don't have a porn collection, but I think *adult* (not child) porn is an individual choice. I think the 55-mph mandatory speed limit was idiotic. I think Jerry Falwell AND Dianne Feinstein should both stay the hell out of my bedroom. If you don't like modern looking rifles, don't own one. And so on. Generally speaking, individual choice vs. mandatory conformity with some centralized ideal.

Nanny-staters (as I use the term--those who wish to make MY choices for me, because they are afraid I might not make the "right" choices about smoking, or drinking, or gun ownership, or how I raise my children, or whatever) are IMHO merely fundamentalists of a different stripe.

[Solon]

39. I say there are two basic types of libertarians, if you could call them that...

There are CIVIL libertarians, and there are TOTAL libertarians. Civil libertarians are basically modern day liberals and assorted other leftists, these are folks who you don't give a shit who you sleep with, what you put in your body, or how you raise your kids(unless its abuse or neglect). At the same time, these people are too the left economically as well, i.e. they believe property and the gaining of property is a social contract between citizens and government. You want a new road to be built, expect to pay for it, along with everybody else. Same for police, fire, utilities, etc. including public funded schools, welfare to help those who can't afford to help themselves, and hopefully, in this country, health care.


Total libertarians are those who, most of the time, label themselves as Libertarians(capital L), basically they believe in the civil parts as liberals do, but forget the economic part, they believe in foolish stuff like tax protests, think privatization of pretty much everything is the answer, and believe in no social services.

This is pretty simple philosophy, wrong overall, of course, but simple, kinda like Libertarians themselves are simple minded.

[left of center]

35. Amen!

That was articulated very well. You need to get on Air America.

I'm serious!

[Jack Rabbit]

27. That depends on which libertarian you're talking about

It's not a monolithic group.

[leftofthedial]

30. they love their own money and property

period


everything else is a rationalization

[slackmaster]

32. A true civil libertarian does not misuse the apostrophe

So there.

[Hollow Shells]

33. They are individuals.

They all have their own reasons and justifications, just like us, repubs, greens, and neonazis.

[nealmhughes]

40. Which kind? The "normal" run of the mill no tax, let me smoke pot kind,

or the let me shoot heroin, do away with the FDA, banks and all environmental law, no tax, no minimum wage, let me have sex with kids type?

Hey! In for a penny, in for a pound!

[left of center]

43. The irony is that people are wired to work together for

their common interests. If libertarians had their way and government were cut back to their liking, many people would form their own governing entities to fill the void. In conflict, who would win? The individual, or the group?

We know the answer to that!

[Pushed To The Left]

41. Mostly anti-government intervention. Great on some issues, lousy on others

They definitely deserve credit for opposing the drug war and other vice laws. I think liberalism is superior to libertarianism because libertarianism is too one-dimensional. For example, let's compare pure conservatism, pure libertarianism, and pure liberalism. Let's say there is a man who smokes pot every Saturday before going to bed. The pure conservative view is that the man should be punished by the government and his employer should be able to fire him for what he does on the weekend. The pure libertarian view is that he should be free to put what he wants in his own body but his employer should still be able to fire him. The pure liberal view would be that he should be allowed to put what he wants in his own body and his employer should NOT be allowed to fire him for what he does on his own time. Pure libertarianism only prevents the government from taking freedom away from an individual. Pure liberalism prevents ANYBODY from taking freedom away from an individual.

[Vidar]

42. They are a mixed bag, as are most parties.

[Joey Liberal]

44. They are nuts.