Can military or former military people be good Dems?

[Stinky The Clown]

I already know the overwhelming majority of people here on DU think the answer to this question is "yes".

But there remain a rather vocal number who see it the other way - that to have been in the military is somehow an indication that one is pro-Bush or pro-Republic Party or otherwise somehow a quick indicator of a right winger.

Why bring this up now, you might ask?

Because right now, in looking at DU after a day off, I find a few threads that imply that. No, I won't link to the threads, but as I type this, one of them is near the top of the GDPol page. In any case, I think it is fair to say that we can agree that such thoughts often surface here.

I think it is also fair to say that the military likely is about the same as the rest of the population. Maybe a bit more to the right, but not a lot. That means that there's a huge number who are NOT to the right. Perhaps not the majority of them, but a *very* substantial minority. I don't know that anyone has ever conducted a poll to determine the overall philosophical leanings of the military. If you know of one, I'd be most interested to see a link to it, and thank you in advance for providing it.

I also know for a fact that there are more veterans who serve in elected office as Democrats than as Republics. The same is true of the pundits and opinion leaders. Surely someone has that oft-cited link to the newspaper in New Hampshire that maintains a list of chickenhawks - the fact that Rush Limbaugh got his deferrment because of anal cysts and that Cheney got five of them because he had other priorities, etc.

How did this meme - that the military is opposed to the core issues of Democrats and that they vote overwhelmingly for candidates from the Republic Party - come to be? And why do many on our side contribute to its being kept up there as 'common wisdom'?

Just a few facts that come to mind as I mull this over ......

It was a former military person who coined the phrase 'military-industrial complex' and went on to strongly warn *against* it - Eisenhower.

It was military returnees from Viet Nam (Viet Nam Veterans Against the War - VVAW) who made it okay for more than just the youth of our country to protest and later contribute to the end of that folly of a war.

It was the Democratic Party who fielded the **overwhelming** majority of veterns-as-candidates in this last election cycle.

It was VoteVets-dot-org that raised money for and then ran some of the strongest anti-Republic Party commercials in this last cycle.

Our last two presential nominees (and possibly the actual winners) were both Viet Nam veterans. Our opposition was (arguably) a deserter.

Look at the bumper stickers. How many 'Veterans for <Democratic Candidate>' are there as opposed to similar ones for Republic Party candidates?

The lists and examples go on and on.

So again, I ask (not entirely rhetorically): Can military or former military people be good Democrats?

[William769]

1. Yes. EOM

[DemDogs]

70. Did they headline Republican fundraisers?

Except for those guys (oops, there is only one of them), they can be Dems. Many are and many are registered Dems (despite what one 2004 candidate said to throw up a smokescreen about his R past.)

[Catch22Dem]

2. Former military and good Dem right here...nuff said. (n/t)

[eallen]

3. This isn't the Pacifist Party.

[The Backlash Cometh]

4. They go together, liberalism and militaryism.

Back in the old days, this was understood. The military fought to protect our freedoms. ALL of our freedoms. Not just the conservative ones. We were never meant to be a country that would protect the way of life for an intolerant group. America was suppose to be the land where people with a diverse background could seek freedoms where they couldn't find elsewhere.

[Sparkly]

14. Good point!

:thumbsup:

[izzie]

16. Right on

--

[noamnety]

48. Can you specify years?

Which old days are we talking about, just so I'm clear on that? A fairly narrow span of time in our nation's history? Or are you thinking from our creation up until fairly recently?

[The Backlash Cometh]

56. A fairly narrow span.

From the Kennedy years until Reagan came into power.

The military, during that period, was one of the biggest proponents of Civil Rights and Affirmative Action. It had to be for recruitment purposes and because they understood that they needed soldiers who could trust each other in order to fight a common enemy.

It all makes common sense, doesn't it? I kind of picked up on the hypocrisy of WWII talking to some vets from the "Greatest generation" era. It was a big war for this young nation, and it always shocked me that black soldiers were fighting for a right to be taken seriously as citizens, and whites were fighting to maintain a way of life that would keep blacks out of their neighborhoods.

[noamnety]

58. Vietnam? *frowning*

The military did get some things right, as far as integration of troops, yes. But we were busy dehumanizing, raping, and slaughtering a whole other set of "wrong colored people" during that time. :(

I'm not quite on board with proclaiming Vietnam to be a shining example of the military fighting to protect our freedoms.

I would characterize the Vietnam years as being yet another time that we fought a war based on lies, racism, and imperialism during which the military did a few things to advance civil rights at home. I don't see that it had anything to do with protecting our freedoms.

I'm reminded of Columbus here. Was he a great navigator who committed genocide - or a tyrant who committed genocide who was a great navigator? Both statements are true, but one's a little more accurate than the other.

[Stinky The Clown]

59. You're conflating the 'mission' and the 'organization'

The military didn't send itself to Viet Nam. The civilian leadership did.

The military, with the assent of the civilian leadership, at about the same time, was, in fact, doing what was stated above, in reply #56.

The military doesn't declare war. The military doesn't send itself someplace. The military doesn't define the goal of the mission. They follow the orders given them by the civilian leadership.

True enough, some military leaders endorsed the Viet Nam War, but not all. Like now, there was a divergence of opinion about 'the mission'. But, unlike now, the officer corps back then didn't go public with their reservations, using their retired brethren as their spokespeople. And the fact they didn't is likely the reason why, today, we have men like Gen. John Batiste (Ret) going wherever he can get a soapbox and telling it like he sees it.

But, if you have a problem with what the military's doing - like the Iraq War - your quarrel is with the civilian leadership, not the military. Certainly that's with whom I have a qaurrel!

[noamnety]

65. I was responding to the statement

"The military fought to protect our freedoms."

That's not a condemnation of people in the military - heck, I spent most of my adult life in the military - enlisted, reserves, and DA civilian. It's more a recognition that the military is rarely used for actually "protecting our freedoms." It's used for a whole lotta other stuff, but not so much that - so I was wondering which wars we've fought that were actually about protecting our freedoms, instead of being about imperialism, manifest destiny, our god-given right to "self-determine" for other people what kind of government they should have, etc. :)

[The Backlash Cometh]

63. I need to rephrase one thing I said, and once done, it might become

clearer.

This era of racial tolerance within the military wasn't due to a desire to increase the number of recruits, because there was no need for recruitment. There was a draft. They were forcing people of all races, against their will, to join an army against a common enemy. Imagine the disaster that was about to take place putting blacks and whites together, against their will.

It's still a real issue.

[MGD]

54. I have to disagree. Most liberals in the "old days" considered militarism to be a threat to liberty

Look at the whiskey rebellion and the XYZ affair/Alien and Sedition acts and the Fries rebellion.

[The Backlash Cometh]

57. I'm talking about modern liberalism.

My father was a shameless liberal but devoted his life to serving the military in a civilian capacity. There was never any incongruity. He had the utmost respect for both, and we absorbed his views.

[TheDebbieDee]

5. You're darn tootin'!

[Monkeyman]

6. As former VVAW we just did what needed to be done

As to can Military men and women help. Look at Duckworth she now runs the State of Il Veterans Affairs your dam right we can help.

[Bandit]

7. It would seem you answered your own question

IMO Democrats care very much more for the well being of the nation than does the opposition. It shows in far more than just military service. Republicans care for money and power while Democrats care more for people especially those most vulnerable.

[yurbud]

8. military officers have been better Democrats last six years than elected Dems

Military lawyers alerted human rights lawyers to torture memos.

Generals objected to Iraq plan and are resisting the Iran War through leaks to Sy Hersh and public statements by their retired brethren.

In many ways, they have been the conscience of the war.


Like in South America, those in our military might be getting tired of being the "bad guys" to the locals in countries where we are sent, especially since the end of the Cold War, it is hard to believe any of them pose a military threat to us.

[Vorta]

9. My uncle

He's about 70 years old, career Army then Air Force, a pilot in Korea then Vietnam. To listen to him talk you might think he's probably a Republican. He is a Democrat. Yes, he hates taxes, doesn't everyone who actually pays them? He also thinks * is a POS in a long line of POSes like Big * , RR, and Nixon.

He's not only a Democrat, he's pro-union, pro-gay rights, and pro-choice. He's pretty much against any kind of social engineering or government coercion for social objectives.

[Warren Stupidity]

10. I think you are mushing a few things together there plus a strawman.

The active duty military vote, so we have been told, is overwhelmingly Republican. I actually have no data one way or another. Wait...nope, google looks a bit hopeless on this. So all you and I have, unless you have some hard facts that you haven't presented, is the current wisdom: the active military votes overwhelmingly Republican. Suppose, lacking other evidence, that is simply true? What then? Should we ignore this? Pretend it isn't so?

I don't think there is any correlation with having served and voting Republican, I could be wrong about that, but it certainly isn't a belief I've held, nor one I've seen much. I certainly know a lot of Democrats who are veterans.

Which brings me to the strawman, exactly what threads are you talking about claiming "that to have been in the military is somehow an indication that one is pro-Bush or pro-Republic Party or otherwise somehow a quick indicator of a right winger"? Don't be so coy, out with those bad posters!

[Stinky The Clown]

12. ".... so we have been told ...... "

Actually, there's some indication that the military vote - particularly from those serving abroad - were fucked with by the Pentagon. I'm sure you recall their 'plan' to 'collect' and then forward the overseas military vote to the appropriate jusidiction. The fact is, we have no way to know *how* they vote.

Used to be absentee ballots were at least a weak indicator - back when a good deal of them were from military and college students. Not so much anymore, what with many choosing absentee if only as a way to vote on paper. back when it had some at least weak correlation to the military vote, the absentee ballots followed the general trends in their repsective districts.

I contend that the 'common wisdom' that the military votes overhwelmingly Republic is a fairy take set up by the Republic Party. You contend it isn't. your view has as much validity as mine, so our differing views have more to do with our own personal bias as with fact. And fact, in this case, seems to be totally absent.

As to the thread 'near the top of GDPol' I have no quarrel with the poster and do not wish to seem to be calling him/her out on what was said. The notion that the military is Republic-leaning was tangential to the thread's main point. But if you insist, do a search on "Honda Civic".

[Warren Stupidity]

13. Actually I contend that I can't find any facts.

"I contend that the 'common wisdom' that the military votes overhwelmingly Republic is a fairy take set up by the Republic Party. You contend it isn't."

Maybe I wasn't clear: a brief google lead me exactly nowhere. I have no data other than the current wisdom. I merely conjectured: suppose the current wisdom is true, what then? Should we pretend it isn't?

I'll take your word for the not a strawman part.

[nodular]

36. according to this, Republicans have an advantage

But it is not nearly so overwhelming as many DUers seem to think.


http://news.minnesota.publicradio.org/features/2004/07/27_collinsb_demvets/



July 27, 2004

"But according to a CBS poll last month, Kerry is nowhere near getting 50 percent of the veteran vote. President Bush leads Kerry among veterans, 54 percent to 40 percent."


In addition, the highly visible James Webb, new Democratic Senator is obviously very much a veteran. The Democrats purposely recruited veterans to run for Congress in border-type areas. This was part of the success of the recent election.

Obviously, some on the Left are hostile to the US military. This is part of the Left coalition and we have to all work together to form a majority. It's like when I was a Republican. I didn't like dealing with people who thought the earth was 7,000 years old, but that is part of politics!

[BeatleBoot]

11. I Spent The Afternoon With One Today

Me Da'

WWII - You know, "the big one".

Best damn Democrat I know.

And then there was my father-in-law (who is now deceased - may God rest his soul) a marine who fought at Guadalcanal, got malaria - he was a Democrat, for sure.

[elocs]

17. I think that the military is far more Republican than Democrat.

That certainly does not mean that there are no Democrats in the military because obviously there are. Republicans, conservatives, tend to be unquestioning of authority, to believe in "my country, right or wrong", to trust those in power who are also Republicans, to trust the President because he would not lie. Their mindset causes them to mesh and fit nicely into the military. They view Democrats as being anti-military, as not supporting them unquestioningly.

Democrats, on the other hand, tend to question things, even their own Democratic leaders. Look at the antiwar protests with Johnson and the Vietnam war. As a rule, that Democratic mindset of questioning does not work well in the military where you are expected to do as you are told and not to question commands. That is why I believe the natural tendency is for conservative to be drawn toward military service and Democrats would not.

On edit to add: so yes a military person can be a good Democrat, but that might make them a bad soldier. Plus, this was meant to be a reply to the original post.

[Stinky The Clown]

18. Do you have first hand knowledge to back your contentions, or are they .....

.... simply your opinion? neither of those is inherently right or wrong. they simply 'are'.

But I'm wondering, since you stated your contentions as absolutes, if you have anything more than your own impressions or biases to back up what you said.

I'm not saying you're wrong. But I *can* say, based on my own first hand experience (personal experiences being, by definition, anecdotal), that what you say isn't the case.

[elocs]

21. Umm, where exactly did I say anything was absolutes?

I simply said that the unquestioning mindset of Republicans and conservative fits better in the military than that of Democrats who tend to question all things, even their own leaders. Certainly there are Democrats in the military who do well. Is that, my opinion, stated simply enough? I am allowed to have my own opinions and impressions as you are. Can either of us prove or provide a link to our suppositions? Because, after all, providing a link to anything is always the absolute truth and final answer.

[Stinky The Clown]

23. My apoligies .....

I re-read your post. You did not speak in absolutes. That was the result of my own bias and personal filter. For that, I'm sorry.

Can you answer my other question ... about whether or not you have any first hand knowledge that shapes your opinion?

[Captain Hilts]

69. But the way the military is organized is far more liberal than conservative.

Universal healthcare, public housing, status comes from sources other than money, CEO often eats with employees, etc.

The marines, submarine force and SEAL teams are the most egalitarian of all.

[KennedyGuy]

15. Not just yes..but HELL yes..

Proud liberal Dem past service and current reserve here.
I have indeed noticed some of the threads you speak of.

[jdadd]

19. Vietnam era vet here....

and lifelong yellow dog :hi:

[MGD]

20. "How did this meme - that the military is opposed to the core issues of Democrats

and that they vote overwhelmingly for candidates from the Republic Party - come to be?"

A.) Bill Clinton forced a balanced budget which resulted in massive military budget cuts which caused the military to mothball equipment, programs, and soldiers. He is/we are widely blamed for that. -1 point Dems

B.) The military has a long a history of homophobia and conservatism. Bill Clinton created the "Don't ask, Don't tell" policy which many many soldiers resented the hell out of. He is/we are widely resented for that. -1 point Dems

C.) Bill Clinton is blamed for the Somalia disaster. -1 point Dems

D.) Bill Clinton kicks ass in kosovo. +1 point

E.)Jimmy Carter exhibited weakness in Iran and is an avowed pacifict. The memory lingers in many minds. -1 point Dems

F.) Ronald Reagan gave a massive pay increases/budget increase to the military and drastically increased military funding which is widely accepted as resulting in the collapse of the Soviet Union and the end of the Cold war with America standing victorious. +1 point Reps

G.) George H Bush is widely regarded as being responsible for the lopsided victory in the first Gulf war. +1 point Reps

H.) Ike Eisenhower is often regarded as one of the greatest military leaders of all time. He is also regarded as one of the best Republicans of all time. +1 point Reps

I.) Even Richard Nixon is respected in certain circles for operation Rolling Thunder which many believe resulted in a "peace with honor". +1 point Reps

J.) LBJ gets the blame for half-assing his way into Vietnam in the first place. -1 point Dems

K.) Truman is generally respected as a military man although many old timers think he should have let MacArthur go "all the way." He did drop the bomb though...twice. +2 points Dems.

KL) Lincoln was a Republican. Lincoln won the civil war with Grant's help. Grant was also a Republican. +2 points Reps

M.) FDR won WW2 for us and gets the credit. He's really our only recent success story. +1 point

N.) George W. Bush fails miserably in Iraq. -1 point

O.) The left is traditionally anti-military in America dating all the way back to the immediate post-revolution Government. The right is traditionaly supportive of a strong military dating all the way back to the immediate post-revolution Government. +1 point Reps. -1 point Dems

Sorry to say but it looks like the meme may be somewhat well founded. To be honest, it isn't necessarily something to be ashamed of. This from an old infantry soldier.

[Stinky The Clown]

25. Excellent post!

I guess I knew every one of those points, but never connected them in my mind as you just did .... and adding the scores ... very good!

Thanks!

[Sparkly]

32. If you're describing perceptions, that's one thing.

If you're describing realities (to say the "meme may be somewhat well founded"), I'm not sure your tally is complete and accurate.

For example: the military cuts under Clinton were a continuation of streamlining that began years before. That same reasoning (that we now fight more from the air than on the ground, more with weapons and less with personnel, etc.) is what continued under Republicans even during these past six years as the reason we don't need a draft (fwiw).

In its time, "don't ask/don't tell" was an IMPROVEMENT over what existed. It seems it hasn't worked well and should be revisited, but in my view, that's not a negative for Democrats.

The battle of Mogadishu was two days; I don't think it can be weighted equally with the disaster that is the battle of Baghdad...

President Carter's diplomatic work is a POSITIVE for the military, in my view. He's an avowed Christian, but I never heard him speak of himself as an "avowed pacifist."

I'd consider Nixon and LBJ a wash.

"The left is traditionally anti-military" -- I don't buy that, especially as a factor today. I think it's a meme propagated since Vietnam.

I appreciate your service, and I know I'm contradicting Husb here, a little... (But we like finding differences, otherwise we'd have nothing to talk about!)

[MGD]

52. Perception is reality to many.

I wish you wouldn't make me argue about this.

"the military cuts under Clinton were a continuation of streamlining that began years before. That same reasoning (that we now fight more from the air than on the ground, more with weapons and less with personnel, etc.) is what continued under Republicans even during these past six years as the reason we don't need a draft (fwiw)."

During the Clinton years, The Army was cut from 18 divisions to 12. The Navy was reduced from 546 ships to 380. Air Force flight squadrons were cut from 76 to 50. Of the 305,000 employees removed from the federal payroll, 286,000 (or 90%) were military cuts. I served for 8 years, 3 of which were during Clinton's administration. I'm not just making this stuff up. What I have reported to you was reported to me by soldiers who served under Reagan and George H Bush.


"In its time, "don't ask/don't tell" was an IMPROVEMENT over what existed."
That's your perception. The military perception was much different.

"The battle of Mogadishu was two days; I don't think it can be weighted equally with the disaster that is the battle of Baghdad"

It wasn't a scientific evaluation, it was a simple generalization to help illustrate a point.

"He's an avowed Christian, but I never heard him speak of himself as an "avowed pacifist."

He may not but others certainly do.

"President Carter's diplomatic work is a POSITIVE for the military, in my view. "

It may very well be. Does that make him a hawk? No, quite the opposite, Carter is a dove.

"I'd consider Nixon and LBJ a wash."
I don't understand that.

"The left is traditionally anti-military" -- I don't buy that, especially as a factor today. I think it's a meme propagated since Vietnam."

Alexander Hamilton and the Federalists were very much right wingers by any standards and they supported the creation and perpetual existence of a large standing Army for the purpose of imposing the will of the Federal government on the individual states at the expense of personal liberty and freedom. This idea was vehemently opposed by the leftward leaning Jeffersonian Democrats. it isn't a meme. It's reality. Right wingism is defined by a penchant for authoritarianism which frequently translates into various forms of militarism. The left is rarely interested in authoritarianism and is more often interested in social reforms, liberty, and liberalism. These are the defining characteristics of the right and the left IMO. When a true "leftist" picks up a gun and goes to war, it is, more often than not, to depose a right wing government that has finally realized the military dictatorship that inevitably arises out of unchecked right wing governance.

[ellenfl]

40. ?

The left is traditionally anti-military in America

then how do you explain the ratings given to our congress critters by afghanistan and iraq vets? dems rate higher than repugs in supporting the troops.

IAVA

ellen fl

[MGD]

51. There isn't anything to argue about here. This is nothing new

and, as I said, there isn't anything to be ashamed of either. The most vocal anti-war voices in our history have been liberals, progressives, or democrats, or whatever name the left was going by at the time. Who do you think showed up at the recent demonstration against the school of the Americas? Right wingers? uh uh. It was comprised predominantly of the leftward leaning. Right wingism and militarism are old friends in America and abroad.

"then how do you explain the ratings given to our congress critters by afghanistan and iraq vets? dems rate higher than repugs in supporting the troops."

Our senators and congressmen/women have supported the troops by voting for bills that support them; that's not the same as supporting unrestrained machine gun diplomacy. It isn't anything to be ashamed of. War is not always the answer but if everybody thought it was, it would be. Where would that leave us?

[NMDemDist2]

22. I think the "all volunteer" force tends to be more conservative in general

different story when the military was partially drafted and tended to reflect the society in general more.

that being said, all I can say is look to one of your favorite Dems, the good General himself, and answer your own question eh?

:hi:

[Stinky The Clown]

26. My own first hand knowledge goes back to the time of draftee military .....

And in my own personal experiences, I ran across more people who would tend to be Dems than the other way around.

Now, while I was in during the time of an active draft, I was in the Navy. At the time, no one was being drafted into the Navy, so everyone I served with directly was a volunteer. That said, many were like me ... I volunteered to go in the Navy so as to avoid being a grunt with jungle rotten feet and a target on my ass. (I volunteered before I ever got my draft number, so I have NO idea how my luck might have helped me out on that score.)

[NMDemDist2]

31. DH is a pretty good Dem and his service was peacetime (79-85)

so there's another one you can add

[MGD]

53. true true eom

[ellenfl]

24. i believe that the military personnel, excluding brass, may

be mostly dem. here is my reasoning . . .

i don't know what percentage, but i believe that most young people who enlist do so to better their lot. it has historically been a ticket out of poverty, for whites and blacks. what percentage of our volunteer military is african-american? we know that generally african-americans vote democratic. so i believe (with no stats to back up my premise) that most enlistees tend democratic.

do you think that the fundies and republican parents will let their kids enlist?

as for the brass, they vote republican because the republicans have kept the military industrial complex intact.

just my opinion. i would love to see some stats.

ellen fl

[Stinky The Clown]

29. "just my opinion. i would love to see some stats."

Wouldn't we all?!?!?!?!

I'm afraid we may never see such stats.

[Catchawave]

27. No.

No.No.No.

Otherwise I'd run my husband.

Wasn't Eisenhower a Republican?

[Stinky The Clown]

30. Yes, Ike was a Republican

But I mentioned him in my OP because - as a former military officer - he was the one who warned us so forcefully about the military-industrial complex.

[Catchawave]

33. Thanks....I was about to edit my post.....

Career military is a whole different animal than those who have admirably and honorably served for a hitch or two.

This isn't the post-war 50's, and nobody today can compare to Eisenhower.

Not even Colin Powell. Maybe in today's politics, a Jim Webb would be great, but ain't gonna let ya have him......:hug:

[Sparkly]

34. Aren't all generals PART of the military-industrial complex?!?

:sarcasm: :hide:

[Tom Rinaldo]

37. And Carter was a war monger too I suppose.

Good old nuclear submarine officer that he was.

Now Jim Webb, HE was a Republican.

[MrSlayer]

28. Absolutely.

To think otherwise is just stupid.

[wryter2000]

35. Of course they can

What's happened is too many people confuse support of the military and especially military personnel with support of ridiculous Pentagon schemes to waste money and, since 1993, with this disaster of a war. Given that dems seem not to support those two things, people think dems don't support the military. I think that may affect the perceptions of military folks that we don't like them, and I suspect that for that reason they tend to be more Republican than the general population. But that's an empirical question I don't have an answer for.

[applegrove]

38. Yes. The military are just workers doing a job. Be it winning the cold

war in Europe. Or peacekeepers. Or toppling dictators. None of us got the countries we live in and like without a military.

[BikeWriter]

39. That sort of rhetoric chaps my VietVet ass!

:grr:

[Odin2005]

41. Of course they can. Is Wes Clark not a Democrat?

Was JFK Not a Democrat?
Was LBJ not a Democrat?
Is Jimmy Carter not a Democrat?
Is John Kerry not a Democrat?

[ultraist]

42. Clark voted for Reagan and Bush I

And, he was a registered Independent before he decided to run in 04. He's not a long term Democrat as is Jimmy Carter and Kerry.

[Sparkly]

43. "Can former Independents" or "Can Those Who EVER voted Republican" be Good Dems? Separate question.

That's not the question asked in the OP, but may be worth discussing in another thread.

[bigriver]

44. Not as Presidential Nominees.

If you finished college and aren't a Democrat, you shouldn't be the Democratic nominee for president.

[Sparkly]

45. "If you finished college and aren't a Democrat"

General Clark finished college, and is a Democrat.

(:wtf:)

[bigriver]

46. He wasn't a democrat when he finished college.

doh.

[Sparkly]

47. 40 years ago, he was an Independent.

So you declare him unfit for office as a Democrat.

How very "liberal" of you. :eyes:

Edited to remind: the OP is about military personnel.

[ellenfl]

60. are there not more dems in congress who have served their

country than republicans who have served?

ellen fl

[Skittles]

49. WHOSE ASS DO I NEED TO KICK, Husb2Sparkly ???

Skittles

Liberal Democrat
American Citizen
US Air Force Veteran

[Stinky The Clown]

50. You GO, girl!

[BikeWriter]

61. Right on, Air Force!

:patriot:

[Vickers]

55. "a rather vocal number who see it the other way"

I'm guessing non-veterans for the most part. :eyes:

[LWolf]

62. I think so.

The question is a little problematic for me. Just what, exactly, constitutes a "good Dem?"

A "Democrat" is a member of a political party. You're either a member or not. Is there a litmus test for members? Are the "good" members the ones that get in line and march behind the appointed "leaders?" Are the "bad" dems those that dissent with party leadership? What?

Is the question about whether a person in the military can be liberal or progressive? I'll leave the term "good" out of it, since that seems to ask for a narrow definition. People in the military can be liberal and/or progressive. Many of them have more reason to be than most. People in the military can also be authoritarian power-mongers. :shrug:

People in the military are people, just like the rest of the population. They can "be" anything any people can be.

[noamnety]

66. What's a "good" dem?

I had that same question myself, actually.

[leftofthedial]

64. only after a full-body-cavity strip search

and an intensive period of deprogramming . . .


:sarcasm:

OF COURSE they can. Some of the best Democrats are vets.

[loyalsister]

67. Of course

Whether Democrat or Republican there has been strict training an authoritarian system. I don't doubt that despite that training people with history with military can be good Democrats.
But I don't feel comfortable with authoritarian leadership styles or a person who I know is comfortable within it as a high level office holder, because I have become familiar with how the overwhelming majority tends to operate in business, and other situations AND how they vote at the legislative level.
There is a difference between authoritarian comfort level, tendencies and partisanship.

[Captain Hilts]

68. I know a retired Marine Colonel who is totally left.

So, the answer is , 'yes'.

Actually, it's 'hell yeah'!

[sce56]

71. I would never support that Draft Dodging two timing Varmit PERIOD.

And I'm a twenty year veteran retired. My son did not vote for him either and he was in from 1998 to 2005 with two tours of duty in Iraq!


http://web.archive.org/web/20030602211200/


October 17, 2006,Will be remembered as the Enabling day of the 21st Century!
"The government will make use of these powers only insofar as they are essential for carrying out vitally necessary measures..."
~Adolf Hitler, March 23, 1933, before the German Parliament (Reichstag) as he urged them to pass his "Enabling Act"

Got Fascism Yet?


http://www.georgewalkerbush.net/bush-nazilinkconfirmed.htm



Fascism Accomplished!