Let's revisit Dean on "White folks who drive pickup trucks with Confederate flag decals"

[underpants]

Sunday, November 2, 2003 Posted: 1:04 PM EST (1804 GMT)


"I still want to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks," the former Vermont governor said in an interview published Saturday in the Des Moines Register. "We can't beat George Bush unless we appeal to a broad cross-section of Democrats."


At that event, Dean received a rousing ovation from the crowd when he said, "White folks in the South who drive pickup trucks with Confederate flag decals on the back ought to be voting with us, and not , because their kids don't have health insurance either, and their kids need better schools too."
http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/11/01/elec04.prez.dean.confederate.flag/

See, the 50 state strategy was there all along.

[havocmom]

1. Dean plays well where I live. Lots of Republicans here would vote for him

He respects people, listens, talks WITH (not at) them, and looks for the common ground issues to build allies.

His 50 state strategy, the refusal to write off whole areas of the nation, and the insistence that we have more in common really blew the shit out of the 'DEMS are elitist' premise the GOP has been running on instead of talking issues.

Dean rocks!

[billbuckhead]

2. Dean legitimized the Confederate flag which was despicable

And these Confederate flag people didn't vote for Dean in 2004 and didn't vote for Dems in 2006 either. Reality is there are now more Mexican flags on pickup trucks in most of Dixie than Confederate flags and Hispanics kicked the GOP to the curb in in 2006 all over America. Appeasing racists, bigots and the gun lobby shouldn't be part of our 50 state strategy.

[madfloridian]

3. Same old same old

Some things never change, do they, bbh

[frankenforpres]

5. dean was not endorsing the confed flag

i was more of an edwards supporter than a dean supporter, but it was really eye opening how despicable the press was to dean. i cant believe im reading the same drivel on DU.

[madfloridian]

6. From the same people.

Unbelievable.

Dean used those words in February 2003 in CA at a speech before the Democrats. He got applause. They knew what he meant. Until the media picked up on it nearer the election....and then all the Democrats distanced themselves.

[seabeyond]

13. i know people that are proud of their flag and will justify. i do NOT

see what dean said to them as offensive, it is how they identify themselves. i also now he is the one democrat i actually heard a coule of the white males say they would have voted for if he had made it. surprised me.

and i am not a dean fan but a kerry supporter. saying i dont need to trash or lie about another dem, to support my own

[Clark2008]

19. The problem never was the Dems in California. Geesch.

The problem was Dems in the South - you know, the place he was talking about.

It's not what he said, it's how he said it and it offended a lot of Southerners - Democratic and Independent (and who cares what die-hard Republicans thought).

[madfloridian]

21. I could tell the South where to take their hurt feelings....

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/695

But that wouldn't be nice, would it?

It was not the people in the South who were offended, it was the politicians making hay of a very sensible statement.

It is what is known as faux outrage.

[Clark2008]

96. No - I was offended and I'm in the South.

My feelings weren't hurt - so I won't bother participating in your South-bashing journal - and no, it wouldn't be nice.

My feelings were that I was tired of hearing this crap from Northerners who simply don't know what the hell they're talking about.

It wasn't WHAT Howard Dean said, at all - it was HOW he said it - like he was, like so many other Northerners, trying to come down here and tell us what to do.

You know, I think the Confederate flag would be gone from statehouses if Northerners had stopped coming down here and telling us how "bad" we were and how "wrong" we were for it. Most of us don't like that flag either, but, what we hate worse is being treated like naughty children and told what we can and can't do.

[Le Taz Hot]

23. Dean got more than applause

at that CA Convention, people went wild over him and for most of us, it was the first time we'd seen him. I know, I was there. It was one of those historic moments. The man was phenomenal then and he's phenomenal now.

And to the poster upthread who claims he "endorsed" the confederate flag: Are you trying to tell me, with a straight face, that 2000+ CA DEMOCRATIC delegates ENDORSED the Confedederate flag that day? You now have NO credibility there, Sparky.

[billbuckhead]

33. Gee, I wonder why all the Democrats distanced themselves?

Geez, I bet if Harold Ford wore a CONflag jacket he would have won. :sarcasm:

[w4rma]

43. That specific poster has a 3-year grudge against Dean.

And is also *very* pro-gun control.

[billbuckhead]

56. We should want the people with AMERICAN FLAGS on their trucks

And I'll take our new amigos with Mexican flags on their trucks as better Americans and stronger at the polls over Confederate flag wavers anyday. Just ask NRA whore J.D.(Just Defeated) Hayworth.

Dean isn't infallible and if he was so great, how come he couldn't win a single state outside Vermont in the primaries despite having the most money, most volunteers and these invincible legions of gun loving liberals coming out of the woodwork?

[lastliberalintexas]

80. Hypocrisy, thy name is...

So it's ok to go after the nationalists with one country's flag on their truck but not the stuck in the past bubbas with a long since failed country's flag? Uh-huh.


For the record, I personally don't care if someone has a flag showing loyalty to the planet Mars, so long as they show fealty to progressive principles and vote with us. But then, some posters even have a problem with that "progressive principles" part. :think:

[beaconess]

84. There IS a difference, for what it's worth

I don't find offense that an American citizen would feel some affection for their country of origin. If they want to display a Mexican or Italian or Kenyan or Australian flag, more power to them.

However, the Confederate flag does not honor a country - there IS no "confederate" nation - its primary, and possibly sole, purpose is to pay tribute to a specific set of ideals, including bigotry, racial superiority and massive resistance to racial equality.

[lastliberalintexas]

86. And so long as they're voting for progressive ideals,

why do we care that they are *personally* a bigot? We are all prejudiced to some extent- the goal is to rise above those thoughts and vote for the common good instead. So if some redneck yahoo with a confederate flag sticker is voting for universal healthcare, a hike in the minimum wage, and a progressive income tax, why do we care if he is a racist in his personal life?

I guess I am just much more cynical than most of you. I do not believe that we will ever erase the scourge of the -isms from this planet, and personally I'd just rather us try to find a way to work around them. :shrug:

[beaconess]

87. Are you serious? Civil rights and equality ARE progressive ideals!

Bigots don't limit their bigotry to their personal lives - they demand the politicians they support advance it as public policy.

They won't just be voting for universal healthcare, minumum wage and a progressive income tax. They'll also be demanding Dems support anti-civil rights judges, end affirmative action, ignore racial profiling and injustice in the criminal justice system, not support Black candidates, etc. And they'd leverage their vote in order to get nudge the party closer to their narrow way of thinking.

Maybe to you, civil rights and social justice are incidental issues that can be swept aside in order to attract voters who are sympatico on the "important issues." But to many of us, these ideals that you think are irrelevant are extremely important, and are a signficant reason we're Democrats. If the Democratic Party jettisons those ideals in order to attract a sliver of White bigots into the fold, they would lose much more than they could ever hope to gain.

[lastliberalintexas]

89. And as I said, if those people are voting for our progressive ideals

then why do I care about whatever redneck notions they hold? I can't believe you apparently don't know any racist who already votes Dem, as I know plenty. :shrug:


And I'm not arguing that we change ANYTHING about our party positions, more that we "distract" the Bubbas from their racial beliefs and convince them to ignore those in favor of economic issues. Really, it's a win-win for us, so I don't understand your hostility.

[beaconess]

93. I don't think you're paying attention to what I'm saying . . .

Why do you keep referring to "progressive ideals" as if they are separate from civil rights, social justice and equal opportunity? Insisting that it doesn't matter that someone is a bigot as long as they vote for our "progressive ideals" ignores the fact that bigots do not support our progressive ideals - at least those that relate to civil rights. They may support some of them, but the reason that racists are happier in the Republican camp is that they do not support these ideals - if they did, they'd vote Democratic. The only way to get them over to the Democratic side is to convince them that those aspects of our progressive ideals are not important. And that's why Dean's comments offended so many people.

You can defend Dean all you want, but I find his comments offensive, naive and counterproductive. You are not going to convince me that it's ok for Democrats to chase after people who want nothing to do with us precisely BECAUSE we stand up for civil rights.

[lastliberalintexas]

79. Yeppers

That was like a flashback to his posts pre-primary. I wonder if he just did a search and cut and pasted? :)

[Stinky The Clown]

4. Come on now .... that's way over the top .......

..... the confederate flag reference was, at MOST, a visual metaphore for a loose and ill-defined social group. It was *hardly* an endorsement of the confederate flag, per se.

And I would bet anything that, unless you feign obtuseness, you know the same as I know what, exactly, Dean was saying and intending when he made that statement.

For Dean to have specifically endorsed the confederate flag would rightly lead one to conclude that he has racist tendencies.

I see absolutely no evidence he does. I therefore conclude he is not a racist.

Do you?

[blm]

9. That was never a big deal - I could be as tough on Dean as anyone, but not MANUFACTURED

controversies used against him. I doubt there was a reporter alive who really believed Dean supported the confederate flag being flown.

Once you got past first reactions to the original way the story was played up, there was just no there there to continue believing the spin.

[nodular]

39. Precisely. The real story there is how public statements by politicians

are getting twisted around so completely. It is stemming, in part from the political climate. The long-term result of this will be politicians being afraid to talk off the script---and requiring a team of people to OK each script. It really hurts communication in the long-run. It also hurts the ability of a politician to build a true rappore with the electorate.

[blm]

41. That's the crucial point that so many miss - that FEAR even effects supporters

or potential supporters who will stay with safe talking, mealymouthed platitude types so certain of their evasive skills they won't have to take a risk and provide the substantive truths that this country needs now more than ever.

If a party's voters are trained to fear what a media machine CAN do, what is the practical result of that for the country?

The party needs to learn to STOP GIVING IN TO TE LIES that are pushed in the media - go after them and the source of the lie and do it as a TEAM.

When Hillary joined McCain and Bush in scolding Kerry for a completely manufactured controversy that had no basis in reality, she demonstrated exactly what is WRONG with the party.

[Canuckistanian]

42. If I recall, the reference was supposed to paint all Southerners as racists

Of course, that's not the case. But a lot of Southerners are still stinging from the comments, right or wrong.

The Democrats still have a long way to go on this issue. The first priority is to show that Republicans don't have Southerner's best interests at heart.

Normally, this wouldn't be hard.

[lastliberalintexas]

81. Not even close

His statement was about going after a certain block of voters (or even potential voters) that the Dem party establishment of the past 20 years had too long ignored- the white lower working class people who were voting repub based on bullshit Guns, God & Gays issues and voting against their own economic interest and ignoring the fact that they have far more in common with the average Black person than with any true republican. People in the South who were not trying to manufacture outrage knew damn well what he meant and EXACTLY the demographic of which he was speaking.


Now, the bigger issue is whether that demographic is worth the effort and just what we have to do to win them?

[havocmom]

8. You can work for America

or you can keep fighting the American Civil War.

Dean works for America. Bull headed bigotry over all things Southern and/or rural is the latter.

"Appeasing racists, bigots* and the gun lobby shouldn't be part of our 50 state strategy"

oh, the irony

* bold for the nuance-challenged, mine

[billbuckhead]

55. I guess the whole rest of advanced nations are BIGOTS

Some people will say anything to keep the failed gun policy that terrorizes America into buying a lot of guns and making lots of money for the gun lobby. The USA leads all advanced nations in gun crimes and is even behind a third world nation like India in murder per capita.

All those Euros, Aussies, Kiwi's, Japanese, New Yorkers and San Franciscans are BIGOTS cause they don't want easy access by almost anyone to the most deadly guns. Desperation must be setting in on the phony guns rights crowd since so many gun lobby people like NRA whore Ohio congresscrimainal Bob Ney is on his way to jail with NRA whore to join join fellow NRA whore and Congresscriminal Duke Cunningham.

[havocmom]

70. The whole rest of the world doesn't take every opportunity to berate

southerners and rural populations.

My complaint goes WAY beyond gun control issues. It's the bigotry. Passing it off as disagreeing with
"the whole rest of advanced nations" is just ducking personal responsibility for the continued agenda of disparaging whole populations on faulty reasoning.

The constant barrage of visceral attacks on whole populations in America IS bigotry and it is NOT helpful if one really wants to change things for the better.

Howard Dean gets it. Not all other 'liberals' do, evidently.

[PVnRT]

10. Yeah, that's what he did

My God, you are SO smart. :eyes:

[seabeyond]

12. bullshit. i live in texas and have yet to see a mexican flag. i HAVE

seen many, (not a few, not a couple) but MANY vehicles suv and trucks with the confederate flag here in texas. even had one vehicle with a kkk banner on back window. and a handful of trucks with R E D N E C K written on the front windshield of their trucks. i have not seen ONE, NOT one vehicle with a mexican flag. i call bullshit.

[billbuckhead]

30. You must be blind

The Mexicans around here also like to put huge letters in the back window with either their surname or the state they come from like "Michoacan".

[seabeyond]

35. not only am i not blind, but i am observant. further i keep my

eyes open for stickers, i like to read them

[lumberjack_jeff]

17. The difference: those flying a confederate flag can generally vote.

Those flying a Mexican flag, often not.

From a political perspective, if I had to pander to one or the other, it's more productive to pander to the citizens.

Dean was right. The parents of rural americans, regardless of ethnicity, should vote for Democrats.

[billbuckhead]

36. Dems got over 75% 0f Hispanic voters in 2006, a fast growing constituentcy

CON flag wavers, not so much.

You're generalizing about how many Hispanics can vote. At least 8% of voters are Hispanic in 2004
<http://www.puertorico-herald.org/issues/2003/vol7n46/ManyHisVtrsSkep-en.shtml>.


Zogby/Hispanic PR Wire Poll: U.S. Hispanic Voters Abandon GOP

Heated Debate over Immigration Earlier This Year May Have Soured Some Hispanic American Voters on the Republican Party; Top Hispanic Concerns Mirror Those of Nation at Large

UTICA, N.Y.--(BUSINESS WIRE)--Just two years after 40% of Hispanic Americans voted for Republican President George W. Bush’s reelection, far fewer say they think the Republican Party understands them best, a new Zogby/Hispanic PR Wire telephone poll shows.

Barely one in five Hispanic voters – 23% – said they felt the Republican Party understands them best, compared to 56% who said they think Democrats know them better, the new survey shows.

The Zogby/Hispanic PR Wire poll, conducted Nov. 17–20, 2006, included 903 respondents, 737 of which were voters in the Nov. 7 general election. The poll carries a margin of error of +/– 3.7 percentage points.

<http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20061128005921&newsLang=en>

[lumberjack_jeff]

38. No, I'm generalizing how many americans of hispanic descent fly mexican flags.

I suspect that it is few.

[Infinite Hope]

24. No, there are not more Mexican flags on trucks than the Confederate flags...

Confederate flags are found on trucks through the entire country....thousands in every state. Some states have tens of thousands. It's not even close.

[billbuckhead]

27. There's more Puerto Rican flags than Confederate flags in metro Atlanta

They hang very neatly from the rear view mirrors. The Confederate flag is every bit as despicable as a nazi flag and often are seen together.

Quite frankly most people would be scared to have a CON flag on their vehicles in most southern cities out of fear of vandalism.

[billbuckhead]

40. More corroboration of the strength of the Mexican flag in Dixie

BLACK MOUNTAIN DISPATCH
Flag Poll
by Jason Zengerle
Post date 11.14.03 | Issue date 11.24.03
-------------------------snip--------------------------
Indeed, tracking down actual Confederate flags requires some effort. While my hometown of Chapel Hill has plenty of dean for america bumper stickers, I can't find any cars with Confederate flags there. And even after I leave Chapel Hill's liberal oasis to go on my 200-mile drive along Interstate 40 to Black Mountain, where Lyons lives, I spot only three vehicles--two pickups and one horse-trailer--with Confederate-flag stickers or license plates. In and around Black Mountain, I cruise a couple of shopping-mall parking lots and a trailer park and find no flags at all. When I ask Lyons for places to find more flag-wavers, even he seems a bit stumped. He has to call a friend, Rick, who suggests I go to Smiley's Flea Market, located about 20 miles southwest in a small town called Fletcher. "You'll see some flags at Smiley's," Rick assures me.

Although Smiley's bills itself as "The South's Largest 'Yard Sale,'" it's not exactly crawling with emblems of the Confederacy: In my first half-hour there, I see more Mexican flags than Confederate ones."
------------------------snip----------------------------
<http://www.tnr.com/doc.mhtml?i=20031124&s=zengerle112403>

[LittleClarkie]

34. I really, REALLY doubt that's what Dean meant

He wanted to be the president of the whole country, not half of it. He's not a bigot, and neither was he endorsing bigotry. He was talking about a region of the country. It's there, like it or not.

I for one am glad for his strategy in my original home state of Virginia.

[lastliberalintexas]

82. I doubt very seriously that we have any true bigots*

in elected office as Dems. All of them, even the ones I don't like for other reasons, are usually good on these issues, as it would otherwise be a deal breaker for Dem voters. But some people have a grudge from the 04 primaries and for some reason can't let go, even if the target of the grudge, ahem, LOST. :shrug:



* And let me clarify that I believe that we are ALL prejudiced in some or many ways, and that I differentiate between "mere" prejudice and bigotry.

[Alexander]

51. Are you suggesting Confed flag wavers SHOULDN'T vote for Dems?

Dean's point, which is sadly missed among a lot of DUers, is that healthcare and schools should trump bigotry. Kind of like the notion that the poor rural whites should vote for Dems because we will create antipoverty initiatives and jobs, instead of voting for the Republicans because they hate gays, blacks, and love their guns.

If you're suggesting people like this shouldn't vote for us, then you're unnecessarily cutting out a large percentage of the voting population, and if such was the case, we'd be doomed to permanent minority status as a party.

This is not "appeasing racists", it's getting people to look past their own bigotry and vote their wallet so the GOP doesn't scoop them up and work against their self-interests.

If you have a better idea, I'd love to hear it. But last I checked we weren't getting 100% of the votes of poor people when we really should.

:eyes:

[billbuckhead]

57. Next should we go after the white citizens councils vote like Trent Lott?

Then the NAZI's. These defeated pro slavery flags often appear together

[Alexander]

66. You have conveniently ignored my point in favor of your strawman. Nice job.

My post, if you bothered to read it, suggested that Dean was appealing to the pocketbook instead of the social aspects. A point that will hit home with just about everyone, including Confederacy supporters.

BTW, you Godwined the debate just now. Apparently your arguments are so weak that you have to bring the Nazis into this. Again, nice work.

:eyes:

[billbuckhead]

68. So you're saying Dems should go after racist voters?

Answer the question and quit avoiding it.

[lastliberalintexas]

83. Yes, we should

There, I said it. The caveat is, of course, that the Dem party should not change our policies on racial issues in order to try to win them. Instead, we should focus on the kitchen table economic issues of FDR and Harry S and help the racists understand that, ECONOMICALLY, they actually have more in common with the average Black person than they do with any of the corporate elite who are the true republicans. Who they want to hate on their own time is their own business.

And I doubt that any poor/middle class Black, Hispanic or Asian family who received universal healthcare as a result of the votes of racists voting for progressive candidates would really give a crap. What, they're going to say "No thank you on that healthcare coverage we couldn't previsouly afford, as it was won with the votes of confederate flag voters." :eyes:

[beaconess]

85. How do you go after racist voters without changing our policies on race?

That's the reason most racist voters don't vote Democratic - in most other respects, their interests are better served by Democrats. The reason they vote Republican is that the Republican Party caters to their backward notions of racial superiority and social structure status quo. If you think that these people will switch to the Democratic Party without exacting some serious concessions on these issues, you're haven't been paying attention to racial politics in America.

And, yes, Black, Hispanic and Asian families DO give a crap about having to share the party with a bunch of racists - especially since their presence in the party will result in backsliding on the other issues we care about. And you can bet if the Democrats start chasing around after this despicable wing of the Republican Party, they will lose even more Black support - and the argument that we have no where else to go won't fly. That's how third parties and major party shifts arise. For example, if the Republicans see a major part of their base - the racists - deserting them for the Democratic Party, they'll have no reason to continue their anti-civil rights policies and could more openly and easily start courting and attracting Blacks into their fold.

If the Democrats want to lose Black voters, the best way to do it is to kick us to the curb to go after racist Whites, since the party is NOT big enough for the both of us.

It's nice that you're so concerned about making racists understand that the Democrats are better for them, but no thank you. The Democrats can get more than enough votes from non-bigots.

[lastliberalintexas]

88. Do you live in the South?

Though, racism isn't just a Southern problem by any means. But I can guaran-damn-tee you that we are *already* winning elections with the help of racists. Again, we are ALL prejudiced to an extent, and the goal is to rise above that emotional response and vote based on other issues. My grandmother, bless her heart, would probably sacrifice me rather than vote for a republican- yet she is in no way shape or form progressive on most racial issues. But she votes Dem because of the economic issues, and because she understands that whether she likes him personally or not, that she has more in common with Mr. Sanders (a Black man) down the road from her than she does with the poster boy of republicanism Ken Lay.

The reason that so many white working class people vote repub (and other working class people of all races don't even bother to vote) is that the Dem party hasn't really been speaking for them in recent years. Universal healthcare, a raise in the minimum wage, enforcement of labor laws, tax reform to help the poor and middle class, better Medicare and Medicaid coverage, protection of Social Security, increased regulation of corporate interests- these are all issues that too many in our party either ignore or worse, are on the wrong side of, mostly thanks to the DLC wing of the party (though I hated to bring that org up).

There are many things that we can do to win *many* of these people over without catering to their racist beliefs, just as there are many things we can do to win *many* of the evangelicals over as well. You are correct in that there are also many in those groups who wouldn't vote for a Dem if our candidate was the proverbial Jesus H. Christ, and of course that's not the demographic I'm speaking of.

All I am saying is that we ignore working class voters, of all and any races and with whatever personal prejudices they may have, to our peril.

[beaconess]

94. I don't disagree with you - but there's a big difference between

some racists voting Democratic and Democrats making a concerted effort "to be the candidate of" racists.

Big difference.

There's also a big difference between working class Whites who are prejudiced (as we all are) and Whites who put Confederate decals on the pickup trucks. Another big difference.

I have no problem with Democrats going after working class Whites, since I don't believe that all or even most working class Whites are racist. But I would be deeply offended and alienated from this party if Dems went out of their way to go after the kind of people who display the Confederate flag, since that involves and reveals a mindset that goes far beyond mere prejudice or ignorance.

And, while I don't live in the South now, I lived there in the past and still spend a great deal of time there.

[Alexander]

90. By stressing ECONOMIC issues (which I already said), racists & minorities will "go after" the Dems.

You do not have to change your tune on race just to win the South, which was Dean's entire freaking point. A point you repeatedly ignore in favor of your ludicrous straw-man arguments.

Talking about healthcare, education, poverty, the economy, and so forth has shown to be effective in getting BOTH minorities AND white racists to vote Democratic.

-FDR got 95%+ victories in every southern state (meaning blacks AND whites voted for him) without endorsing racism.

-Truman won much of the South AFTER integrating the military.

-Jimmy Carter won almost every Southern state while still getting a vast majority of votes from minorities.

-Bill Clinton won Georgia, Florida, Louisiana, Arkansas and Tennessee all at one point without being racist. "It's the economy, stupid". Remember?

Poor whites and poor blacks have one vital thing in common - they are poor. Speaking to their wallets, without bringing out any race-baiting, will cause poor people of all stripes to forget their prejudices and vote for the Democrats.

But hey, I guess YOU are above facts & logic.

:rofl:

[beaconess]

98. Your arguments have big holes in them

1. FDR won his elections during a time when race and civil rights were not major national priorities of either party. Throughout his term, government not only tolerated but imposed racial apartheid throughout the country. Eleanor Roosevelt took steps to try to address some of this and for her trouble, Southern Whites HATED FDR.

2. Yes, Truman integrated the military. And as a result, racist Democrats began to leave the party in droves. They first became Dixiecrats, led by Strom Thurmond - who spearheaded the the walkout of the 1948 Democratic Convention because of objections to a modest civil rights plank in the Democratic platform.

3. You are correct that Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton won many states in the South. But that does not mean that they did so by attracting the votes of Southern White bigots - you offer nothing to support your argument that racists strongly supported either one of them.

You seem to be missing "the freaking point" - poor Whites are not synonymous with racists. Yes, some Southern Whites are bigots, but most are not. If Dean wants to go after poor Southern Whites and forge a coalition between them and minorities, more power to him. That's very, very different than actively courting bigots, which is exactly what going after the guys displaying Confederate flag decals means.

If Dean meant the former, that's great. But that's not what he said and neither he nor his supporters should be surprised if people are offended by his comments or if we can't understand why he doesn't better explain what he's trying to do.

[Alexander]

100. Everyone who isn't filthy rich should vote for us. Amazing how you ignore this point.

Dean has also made statements saying minorities should vote for us in droves, because we discuss real issues regarding race, while Republicans ignore it and mostly have WASPs in their party.

I see you aren't letting facts get in the way of a good argument.

I'm sure you're familiar with the red-state "values" of "God, guns and gays". Things like this drive a wedge in the votes of poor southern white voters, and cause the Democrats to lose a lot of votes where they should be gaining them.

The point that I am repeatedly making (and people like you are repeatedly, and perhaps willfully, ignoring) is that if the Democrats stress economic issues, poor people with a racial, religious or cultural bone to pick with the party are more likely to put their bigotry aside and vote their wallet.

My cousin, who lives in a predominately white suburb of Atlanta, is a FOX News-loving Bushbot who has a Confederate flag in his room and repeatedly talks about "our culture". His mother, a born-and-raised Georgian, tells me she "wasn't sure" how she felt when MLK got assassinated and instills beliefs like this in her son. I find such views to be absolutely disgusting and reprehensible. But I guess we should say "No thanks, we'd rather not have your vote"? No, I want these people (members of my family, who would likely have apoplexies if they knew of the mere existence of other members of my family) to wake the hell up and vote Democratic.

I'm going to address your factless claims one by one.

"1. FDR won his elections during a time when race and civil rights were not major national priorities of either party. Throughout his term, government not only tolerated but imposed racial apartheid throughout the country."

Bzzt! Wrong. FDR's creation of public-sector jobs and anti-poverty initiatives assisted poor black people more than just about any other demographic group. Not only that, they helped all poor people, and during the Depression, there were certainly a lot of them.

"Eleanor Roosevelt took steps to try to address some of this and for her trouble, Southern Whites HATED FDR."

Uh, what??

Here's a nice map of the 1936 presidential election results.



Here's 1940.



And here's 1944.



This page is where I got them.

http://uselectionatlas.org/RESULTS/

Notice the VERY DARK RED throughout ALL of the south. Meaning FDR won victories ranging from 60% to well over 90%. (In South Carolina in 1936, for example, FDR won a stunning 98.57% of the vote!) Seems that would be pretty difficult if "Southern Whites HATED FDR", as you claim.

"2. Yes, Truman integrated the military. And as a result, racist Democrats began to leave the party in droves. They first became Dixiecrats, led by Strom Thurmond - who spearheaded the the walkout of the 1948 Democratic Convention because of objections to a modest civil rights plank in the Democratic platform."

I am well aware of Mr. Thurmond's walkout and presidential run, although you seem to be forgetting Hubert Humphrey's strong pro-integration keynote speech at the '48 convention. But let's see how Thurmond did, shall we?



Uh oh, Thurmond only succeeded in 4 southern states! It seems voters from the south weren't that angered at Mr. Truman, given that he won every other southern state.

"3. You are correct that Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton won many states in the South. But that does not mean that they did so by attracting the votes of Southern White bigots - you offer nothing to support your argument that racists strongly supported either one of them."

I never argued that they did. What I am arguing is that poor southern whites, many of whom have either a cultural, racial or religious bone to pick with the Democrats, will vote Democratic anyway if they feel issues regarding the pocketbook are more important. This extends to wavers of the Confederate flag. As wrong and disgusting as their views are, I'd rather have them (along with blacks, gays, religious minorities, women, etc) vote Democratic than have them join the Republicans. As LBJ said, "Better to have him inside the tent pissing out than outside the tent pissing in".

The examples I used are evidence that we can attain victories with bigoted southern whites (whether they are bigoted against blacks, gays, women, or other religions) without supporting their backwards cultural views of the world. This was Howard Dean's point. Why else do you think he mentioned education and healthcare in the same sentence as an issue regarding race?

I thought it was obvious given context clues what Dean meant, but I guess DUers are not above picking apart a statement any Dem makes, taking it out of context, and finding fault with it. Another good example is John Kerry's joke...

But hey, let's play the game "beaconness ignores every other statement Dean makes about race." I see you're already playing it rather well. So I should expect no reaction from you when I post stuff like this:

"After two or three years, Dean noticed that she had a "matriarchy" in the office. When the chief of staff was going to hire a new person, Dean said, he told her, " `I notice we have a gender imbalance in the office, and I wonder if you could find a man.' She said it's really hard to find a qualified man. I got everybody laughing about that."

That is Dean's icebreaker to get audiences to understand institutional racism. "The punch line of the story that it's so hard to find a qualified man is everybody does it. Everybody tends to hire people like themselves. And I get them all nodding, including the African-Americans in the audience."

“We must ... come to terms with the ugly truth that skin color, age and economics played a deadly role in who survived and who did not,”

"Dealing with race is about educating white folks," Dean said in an interview Tuesday on a campaign swing through the first primary state where African-American voters will have a major impact. "Not because white people are worse than black people about race but because whites are in the majority, and therefore the behavior of whites has a much bigger influence on hiring practices and so forth and so on than the behavior of African-Americans."

All statements from Howard Dean. Do you honestly think he's trying to appeal to racists? Or do you think maybe he's saying white southern bigots should vote Democratic, because they also tend to be poor, and we are the only party that seems to give a shit about poor people?

:crazy:

This "If Dean meant..." stuff is total nonsense. Of course he meant we should aim for the pocketbook; the rest of his statement (after "ought to be voting for us, because...") and his other statements regarding race have made it incredibly obvious. But I see many DUers will stoop to just about any level and make any number of ridiculous logical fallacies just so they can trash Dean and put words in his mouth.

[LanternWaste]

52. I gotta call you on the MX flag thing...

I didn't see it as legitimizing the flag at all, to me it appears he simply described a demographic group of which he wanted votes.

I gotta call you on the MX flag thing... I live in North Texas and to be perfectly honest, there are waaaay more ConBat Flags than there are MX flags on motor vehicles. Now that you mention it, I don't recall seeing one MX flag decal in over ten years (part of which, I'd lived in Latino-heavy neighborhoods)

[Rockholm]

69. No Mexican Flags here in Boston...

There are however, many Puerto Rican flags.

[dajoki]

7. I think what Dean meant...

was that we had to go after every vote out there. And it seemed to have been successful, huh?

[savemefromdumbya]

11. Dean's statement went through my mind all through November's election

If everyone had listened to Dean about the Iraq war too?

[dajoki]

14. Yeah, but too late for that now n/t

[lojasmo]

15. The ALWAYS forgotten part of the quote:

"They should be voting for us, because THEY DON'T HAVE HEALTH CARE EITHER."

Ahhh...always good to see democrats bash the leader of the party...good on ya' BBH.

[UrbScotty]

37. Isn't amazing how words get spun in the media? (nt)

[billbuckhead]

71. I've criticized Dean for this insult since it happened

Many good liberals died and suffered fighting that flag to this very day.

[LynneSin]

16. When I was campaigning for Joe Sestak we passed a home with a Conferate Flag

and ironically on the front lawn was a Rendell AND Sestak sign.

[loyalsister]

91. Likewise

I saw a truck with a confederate flag decal and a Kerry bumber sticker.
I regret not taking a picture.

[mandyky]

18. This was much ado over nothing

Dean included this in his speeches early on and everyone knew what he meant. Not that he loved the CF or rednecks, but that southern white folks, CF or no, redneck or no, wanted good education, healthcare, etc for their children as do.

[lumberjack_jeff]

29. Agreed. Changing people is meritorious.

I don't want to change the Democratic party to accomodate rednecks. I want to convince rednecks that their interests are served by rejecting redneck values.

Promoting the Democratic party as an exclusive club benefits no one. Not us nor the rednecks.

[OzarkDem]

72. Real Democrats understand what Dean said

only pretenders or disruptors would ignore the point of his remark.

50 state strategy, baby. It worked like a charm and it was and is the right thing to do for ALL Americans.

[beaconess]

75. I'm a "real Democrat" not a pretenter or disruptor and I was offended by his comments n/t

[mandyky]

99. Did you hear his whole speech or

just what the media cherry picked?

I used to dislike the CF until I read some interesting posts here at DU about southern heritage.

But truly Dean did not _mean_ to offend anyone, it was part of his repretoire for a long time and the media just made a big deal out of one incident in one interview..

[TayTay]

20. That was unfairly reported at the time

and most people understood that Gov Dean was talking about outreach and about not writing off large segments of the United States in appeals to Democratic voters.

It got turned into pandering and a flip-flop or something. That was another moment of media idiocy.

[David Zephyr]

22. I think you are right.

Dean certainly put the money where his mouth was and worked Dixie and a great many other areas that our Party has neglected. Thanks for pointing this out.

:thumbsup:

[beaconess]

25. I like Dean, but I still think this comment and approach is offensive

The primary reason these guys with the Confederate flag on their pickup trucks continue to vote Republican, against their economic interests, is that they believe that the Republican Party will protect the social structure they cling to so desperately, i.e., keeping in place the social status quo that makes them feel superior, regardless how low they are on the totem pole.

The only way for the Democratic Party to attract these guys is to convince them that this interest will be protected. And the only way to do that is to downplay their positions on civil rights and social justice, which, unfortunately, Democrats are often all too willing to do. One of the most recent cases in point are their skittishness about filibustering Alito and Roberts out of fear that white men in the red states would hold it against them.

While I’m all for reaching out to non-traditional voters and doing a 50 state strategy, I think it is naïve at best and callous at worst to go chasing around after a bunch of bigots at the expense of Black voters who have been loyal through and through.

As a Black woman, I don't WANT to be in the same party as guys who have Confederate flag decals on their pickup trucks. Leave them to the Republicans and keep them away from me.

[OzarkDem]

73. Sorry, but that's just a diversion

It appears your more interested in the Confederate flag than you are in helping our country recover from GOP disasters.

Some of us care more about getting out of Iraq, fixing our economy, getting good paying jobs and education for everyone and health care for all. Some of us don't. Which one are you?

[beaconess]

76. Re-read my post - it's not about the Confederate flag - it's about trying to appease

people who would display the Confederate flag.

I don't want my party trying to attract such people - the only way to attract them is to convince them that the issues I care about will no longer be a priority of my party.

There are plenty of disaffected, non-racist GOPers we could be going after. But chasing around after the bigots is offensive and insulting to me as a Black Democrat.

To answer your question - speaking of diversions - of course I am interested in all of those goals. I am also concerned about civil rights, equal opportunity, tolerance and justice, things that the people Dean says he wants to court strongly oppose - and things that the display of the Confederate flag is expressly intended to counter.

[loyalsister]

92. I have a bad reaction to the flag

and I respect your opinion.
But, I have come to the conclusion that it is a symbol which can have more than one meaning attached to it.
It is my understanding that some people truly see it as a symbol of "southern pride."
The fact that they are willing to display it when they know it's alternate meaning is offensive.

There are plenty of other things that offend me as well.
The politics associated withis statement that are consistently forgotten are that Dean was referencing Nixon's "southern strategy." Nixon used racism to court southern voters.
Dean's idea was to remove racism from the equation.
He wanted to return the focus to self interest so that black and white voters in the south would recognize a common goal.

[beaconess]

95. If that's what Dean meant, he should have said it

instead of raising the specter of inviting the worst kind of bigots into our party.

I think that is probably what he meant, but he didn't put it that way and the fact that he worded it in such a ham-handed manner that can be so easily misunderstood was a problem he has yet to address or correct.

[loyalsister]

97. He did......

In March, Dean described the thinking behind his controversial remark more fully: "I think the Republicans, ever since 1968, with Richard Nixon's Southern strategy, have divided us on race issues. Look, when I go to the South, I talk about race deliberately... If we're going to have elections about race, we might as well talk about it openly. I want white males, particularly in the South, to come back to the Democratic party. And the case that FDR made was, look, when was the last time you all got a raise? When was the last time your kids got decent health insurance? What kind of schools do your kids go to if you can't afford a private academy?"

His problem is that, this time, he left off the filigree of Nixon and Roosevelt. And so, for days after his gaffe, Dean engaged in the etiquette of fulsome apologies. He began by condemning the Confederate flag as "a painful symbol", then asked for forgiveness from "any people in the South who thought they were being stereotyped". A day later he called his language "clumsy", and added: "I deeply regret the pain that I may have caused." An overdue discussion of the Republicans' Southern strategy was replaced by bowing and scraping.

http://www.commondreams.org/scriptfiles/views03/1108-14.htm

[Leftist78]

26. Sure I remember that.

I also remember how it made me feel as a Southerner. I know Dean's not anti-south, and that he doesn't actually believe we all drive pick-ups with Confederate flags on them, but to me, it did show a kind of ignorance about my region and our way of life that was a little irritating, and I doubt it would have been acceptable to say something like "I want to be the candidate for the fried chicken eating, booty-dancing African American voter." Or, "I want to be the candidate for the taco-eating low-rider driving Hispanic voter." That being said, I do think the media made a mountain out of a mole hill, but what else is new. He still would have made a great president as would a number of the others that ran in '04.

[beaconess]

31. Agree

I also feel strongly that if Democrats want to build up their numbers, one of the first things they need to do is reach back and shore up their base in the African-American community - and they can't do that by kicking us to the curb while they chase around trying to get bigots to vote for them. And if they work harder to earn the Black vote, they won't NEED the confederate flag wavers since there's more than enough support right here in their own backyard, if they just take the time to work for it.

[janx]

62. I'm not so sure that was Dean's point.

The way it appeared to me, he wasn't trying to go after the bigot vote per se, but trying to enlighten some people who were truly in need.

The Republican party has profited on ignorance (gays, guns, God I believe Dean's term was). It really is sickening, because people generally aren't stupid, but some are grossly uninformed.

[beaconess]

78. The Confederate flag decal is an express symbol of bigotry

the only reason for its display is to make a point - and that point is all about bigotry.

We shouldn't be trying to attract the people who display that hateful symbol of oppression, nullification and racism.

If Dean meant that he wants to go after the people who are truly in need, he should say that. But saying that he wants to attract bigots to the Democratic Party is offensive to me. I'm sure he didn't mean it that way - think Dean's a very decent man and means well - but it's still very damaging and shouldn't be defended.

[AtomicKitten]

28. I actually liked the comment.

Of course, I'm a Birkenstock-wearing, latte-lovin' girl from SF that doesn't shave my legs often enough, but still Dean IMO was acknowledging his NE'ern heritage and giving a nod to the South. I think he was talking about inclusion as opposed to any other negative connotation.

[Sparkly]

32. I agree that he was thinking of a 50-state strategy.

And he was doing well with Democrats all over the country at the time he said that.

I don't think we need to revisit the remark -- which I did/do think used an unfortunate descriptive -- but I think the strategy was there, and I think it did help us a great deal this year.

[sampsonblk]

44. John Kerry's response here

"Howard Dean is justifying his pandering to the NRA by saying his opposition to an assault weapons ban allows him to pander to lovers of the Confederate flag," Kerry said in his statement. "It is simply unconscionable for Howard Dean to embrace the most racially divisive symbol in America. I would rather be the candidate of the NAACP than the NRA."
http://edition.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/11/01/elec04.prez.dean.confederate.flag/

More of Dean on the subject (back in 2003):

"I still want to be the candidate for guys with Confederate flags in their pickup trucks," the former Vermont governor said in an interview published Saturday in the Des Moines Register. "We can't beat George Bush unless we appeal to a broad cross-section of Democrats."

Dean was right all along. No question what he was talking about, and no question that he was right.

[beaconess]

45. I think he's dead wrong - I don't WANT to support a candidate who the guys with confederate

flags on their pickup trucks support. The only reason people like that would support a candidate is if that candidate made them believe that he/she share their view of the social status quo.

Those guys know the Republicans don't advance their economic interests. But they continue to support Republicans because they believe that Republicans will protect their notions of racial superiority and not give in to "them people." The only way to get them to vote Democratic is to convince them that Democrats will do the same, or at the very least, won't try so hard to appease "them people."

I like Howard Dean and think he means well on this, but his approach on this issue is terribly naive.

[benEzra]

48. I think the mention of the Confederate flag was unfortunate...

and tended to distract from his real message, which was the idea that inviting gun owners, rural people, and other non-stereotypical Dems back into the tent would be a Good Thing. The converse--making the party an enclave of gun-hating, pickup-mocking, city-dwelling urbanists--is a loser.

I think the '06 elections proved Dean right. Without the pro-gun, populist Dems that were elected in November, the repubs would still control the Senate.

[beaconess]

50. I agree

Using the Confederate flag reference implied that poor, Southern Whites are all backward-thinking bigots - since that's generally the kind of people who want to glorify the Confederate flag, which is nothing but a racist symbol. That reference really insulted and troubled me, as a Black woman.

Al Sharpton explained it very well in a debate:

"Martin Luther King said, 'Come to the table of brotherhood.' You can't bring a Confederate flag to the table of brotherhood . . . I think that Maynard Jackson said that the Confederate flag is America's swastika. If a Southern person running, if John Edwards, a Bob Graham had said that, they'd have been run out this race. I don't think you're a bigot, but I think that is insensitive, and I think you ought to apologize to people for that . . . Confederate flags is not for white people, and that's sounds more like Stonewall Jackson than Jesse Jackson . . . The issue's not poor Southern whites. Most poor Southern whites don't wear a Confederate flag, and you ought not try to stereotype that."

The comment also bothered many others, particularly Southerners. John Edwards, for example, said in the same debate:

"I grew up in the South. I grew up with the very people that you're talking about. And what Al Sharpton just said is exactly right. The people that I grew up with, the vast majority of them, they don't drive around with Confederate flags on pickup trucks.

"One of the problems that we have with young people today is people talk down to you. You know, you get all pigeon-holed. They've stereotype you.

"Exactly the same thing happens with people from the South. I have seen it. I have grown up with it. I'm here to tell you it is wrong. It is condescending. And the only way that we as a party are going to win the White House back is to reach out to everybody and treat them with the dignity and respect that they're entitled to. That's what we ought to be doing."

[billbuckhead]

59. Tellingly, Dean stumbled into this minefield when talking about guns

Ever gaffe prone, Dean awkwardly and ironically got the racial code thing backwards and used a racist symbol as code for "gunrights'. Here's a PBS blip about the gaffe.
-------------snip------------------------------
Dean's stance on 'cultural' issues
MARGARET WARNER: Jody, Dean has tried -- has tried to talk about issues other than just the economic. For instance, on guns he's tried to expand his appeal.

JODI WILGOREN: That's right. Actually that's how this most recent comment about the confederate flag came out was in a debate over guns. Dr. Dean has been endorsed by the NRA during his career in Vermont as governor. Although he supports now --

MARGARET WARNER: By the NRA --

JODI WILGOREN: -- although he supports the federal assault weapons ban and background checks he says the rest of gun control should be left to the states. That's one of the ways he appeals to rural voters, hunters and folks who believe in having guns for their own defense.
<-----------snip------------------------------------
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/politics/july-dec03/dean_11-05.html>

[sampsonblk]

49. There is another more obvious way

And that is to talk to them like they are human beings and convince them that the GOP way isn't doing them any good. That maybe they should come over to reality and join the 21st century instead of being puppets for Halliburton.

Being right is a powerful argument. Surely there are people in this party who can make our case to people who we strongly disagree with. In any event, its vital that we try. Just my opinion.

[benEzra]

53. I tend to agree, with a caveat...

There is another more obvious way...And that is to talk to them like they are human beings and convince them that the GOP way isn't doing them any good. That maybe they should come over to reality and join the 21st century instead of being puppets for Halliburton.

Being right is a powerful argument. Surely there are people in this party who can make our case to people who we strongly disagree with. In any event, its vital that we try. Just my opinion.

I agree. I think Dean's message does hit on one point, though, that does need to be addressed--that the party needs to be INCLUSIVE with regard to gun owners and other Dems and indies that some urbanists have tried to marginalize in the last couple of decades.

One of the vital things that Dean advocated was LEAVE THE GUN ISSUE TO THE STATES. Stop mucking around in people's gun safes over rifle stock shape and crap like that (e.g., the much-hated "assault weapon" bait-and-switch), and stop making people choose between, say, their gun rights and their freedom of speech.

Where I live, "I'm going to ban half your guns" trumps "Halliburton is running a racket" like an ace trumps a three of clubs. Dean is saying, get crap like that off the table, so elections can be decided on other issues instead of wedge items.

[sampsonblk]

54. I agree 100%

Dean's gun stance was the first thing that jumped out at me. Very wise. I would love to see more Dems campaigning loudly with that message. That would make a huge difference.

[benEzra]

46. Dean was right indeed...

and the election results in '06 prove it, IMHO.

It's ironic that Kerry slammed Dean for opposing Feinstein's ban on protruding rifle handgrips, because the ban-more-guns stance hurt Kerry badly in '04--and dropping it helped Dems in '06 (Webb, Tester, Casey, others).

[OzarkDem]

74. Wow, that's not only wrong, its offensive

I'm kind of surprised that Kerry would say something that stupid. I thought him a better person than that.

[GreenTea]

47. Are they the same ones with Rush Limbaugh stickers on their pick-ups?

[janx]

61. It's possible. Why? n/t

[Guaranteed]

101. He's just saying don't attack them personally and put up divides.

He's saying talk in common sense terms to them. Try to relate to the better part of them. Bring them over to OUR side. *Genuinely* work to convince them of who is better running the country- don't just try to make them feel bad.

He's not saying we should agree with or even necessarily compromise with them.

In short, he's saying take the ego out of the politics, and put people on the same page.

[madfloridian]

58. Did you guys know that one or more Dem candidates paid for flags to be waved...

at Dean's rallies in NH? Confederate flags? I have pictures but they are so offensive.

These guys were outrageously obvious. They would trail behind him with those flags.

[billbuckhead]

60. How can you be sure they weren't volunteers for the " lost cause"?

Did you see their cancelled paychecks?

[madfloridian]

63. There you are bbh....how did I know you'd show up.

on a thread about Dean and confederate flags. :rofl:

[billbuckhead]

67. NO PROOF WHATSOVER. Just like Faux News, making stuff up

"Some Democrats say". If there are all these CONflag waving Dem voters, why were you agast that a couple of them showed up?

[ecstatic]

64. lmao! memories... (sigh)

I remember the silly repugs (or were they Dems) who marched near Dean's speech in Confederate gear/with Confederate flags. Those of us who really wanted change knew exactly what Dean was talking about!!

[janx]

65. Yep. Hindsight makes it even more bizarre.

Surreal, even.

[threadkillaz]

77. Lynyrd Skynyrd Rules!!!!