I... rather.... like Hilary.

[JeremyWestenn]

I do. I like Hillary. A lot. And I think she has a realistic chance of winning. Certainly much more so then Barak Obama, he's just not experienced enough. And what's more is I think that she is truly a centrist and if she can portray that to the voters she can reach a long spectrum, especially after this slamdunk of an election. What's more so is that I think she is actually a progressive friendly candidate. Name me one potential, VIABLE, Democratic candidate that is as favorable as she is towards equal rights for homosexuals? She may play the whole " Don't believe in same sex marriage, " card but still thinks we should have the second class citizenship but still I ask you to name me another viable Democratic Presidential candidate that has marched in the parades with us?

I think she will be good on foreign policy. I know she voted for the Iraq War resolution, but everyone and their mother voted for that and they all think it's a mistake! And guess what? If they believe it was still the right thing to do to authorize the President to go to war then that's their choice and what happened near 5-6 years ago is irrelevant now. It's done, move on, look at the present. She has the experience of the Senate, her senate commitee's, and that of being the first wife of the President. Let's be honest, she probably talked quite a bit about the day to day world issues with her husband. And more then likely spoke casually over things he probably technically shouldn't have spoken to her about.

I also firmly believe she'll be as strong economically as her husband was.

She may come off icey, but I think that's more the media(certain aspects) and spin masters portrayls. I've seen a lot of people who have said that they have met her and that she was actually a reall warm, nice women and that they enjoyed her company. I hope she can dispell that on the campaign trail, and if she does she can really give her opponents a run for their money.

Do I hope she runs? Hells yeah, I think she will win if she does. Will she run? It appears so, it does.

I really don't understand the DU displeasure with her. Or even why a decent number of Democrats don't really like her. If someone could try and explain it to me I'd appreciate it, I'm kinda lost on this matter. I think she's highly qualified, highly capable, and honestly the best potential candidate we have if what were aiming for is a competent person to lead our nation.

But my last thought is this. And if you disagreed and had a personal DU meltdown reading the stuff above then please clear your head and take this into account.

As soon as our Democratic nomination is handed down STFU. Just STFU and back her, or him, or whoever it is. It doesn't matter if it's Clark, or if it's Edwards, Obama, or even Clinton. You just shut up and fall in line and start the march of the campaign because then it's all about getting that person, regardless as to whom you liked better in the pimary, into the White House. We cannot have another 4 years of Republican leadership, we've seen what 6 years has done with that and Gods help us get through these last 2. We don't want McCain in office, we sure as hell don't want Romney in office, and as much as I do appreciate Guiliani(and his pro-gay marriage stance) we don't want him either, and certainly not any of the wanna be Republican Presidents that are Governors. We want a Democrat, and it doesn't matter if the nominee is a women and it doesn't matter if it's a black man with a funny name when it becomes clear who's on top just fall into line.

I will personally be there marching as hard for Obama as I would have Hillary and likewise for Clark and Edwards.

/DUsalute!

[Radio_Lady]

1. self delete

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[salin]

3. I have absolutely no idea

what this means.

[Radio_Lady]

4. self delete

[JeremyWestenn]

6. :\

[The Magistrate]

5. Sen. Clinton Would Make An Excellent President, Sir

Her support in the country is much greater than many of her opponents of the left suppose or would like.

An unpredictable factor is the hate for her on the tight, but as a factor in a national election two years on, the "hate Clinton" cadre may prove to have been overtaken, and dispensed with, by events over the last eight years.

[JeremyWestenn]

8. You know, since you mention the Hillary hate...

It makes me think back to the 2004 election. So much venom was being spewed against the President that I think when the election finally came people were rather desentised to attacks on him. As such I believe we kinda avoided unleashing on him and it rather hurt us in the long run. Maybe the same thing could happen to her if she won?

[Nederland]

147. Question is...

given that the last 20 years of Presidents looks like this:

Bush - Clinton - Clinton - Bush - Bush

do they really want to make it look like this:

Bush - Clinton - Clinton - Bush - Bush - Clinton - Clinton


????

[blue cat]

7. Nobody has to decided anything yet

It's a long journey to 2008. It is just too soon to know. I am looking forward to seeing lots of great candidates up there like in 2004. I remember looking at the stage with all the great candidates in the primary and knowing that I was in the better party. I dated Dean but married Kerry. Undecided now. I'm waiting to decide who to support until after the debates. I wouldn't under estimate Obama since he has the Ophra factor behind him. The front runners sometimes get so beat up they usually don't win the primary, i.e. Dean and Gephardt.

[JNelson6563]

9. When she stood there on the Senate floor

voting "yes" in the IWR, stating "I trust this White House" she lost me. Forever.

Julie--who has issues with abusive relationships

[Radio_Lady]

14. Alas, she faces quite a difficult electorate and has lots of baggage.

But I agree that supporting her in the primaries would allow for some of us to re-identify with her in a positive way. Stepping away from her rather unfortunate statements about and votes supporting the war, she deserves a chance in 2008.

[JNelson6563]

37. She made bad choices

and for that she lost my support, not to mention countless other Dems.

That doesn't even begin to address how polarizing she is and the 12 year hate campaign the right has conducted. I doubt she's learned that sucking up to them will not help her.

Some people, no matter how bright, are unteachable on some topics. Apparently, even some DUers.

Julie

[ruggerson]

10. I agree with you, my problem with Hillary is strategic and stylistic

I just don't think she has a winning personality on television. She doesn't convey warmth, wit, self deprecating humor - all things one must have in this day and age to win a national campaign for the Presidency.

She has the same issues, personality wise, that Gore and Kerry had - they come across as non-authentic - presenting a manufactured personality in the media.

Contrast them with Barack Obama. He is engaging, warm, self deprecating, charming, witty and modest. If we had a candidate with Hillary's experience/money/clout and Obama's personality, that person would be a shoo in.

[blue cat]

11. I think the displeasure with her

at least for me, is that she comes with too much baggage. She shouldn't get brownie points for having her family name behind her, neither should have Bush. If it weren't for Bill whom I love, she wouldn't be that popular. We need someone new. We still need the Clintons, but I prefer other candidates to her for president. I feel like the media is trying to shove her down our throats as our nominee.

[ruggerson]

19. I don't think it's the media

I think it's a national fascination with a potentially historical event, which naturally has the media all abuzz.

A former First Lady, current Senator, leading in all the opinion polls for her party's nomination?

It's never happened before, it may never happen again. The next serious woman contender will more than likely not have been a First Lady.

Blame it on our national fascination with celebrities. The National Enquirer and people magazine sell a lot of magazines in places like Mississippi, Kansas and Ohio.

[JeremyWestenn]

20. Bod Doles wife,

wasn't she a potential contender at some point?

[ruggerson]

23. But she was never leading in any polls nor had she been First Lady

and she was too moderate for most Republicans. I don't think she made it past NH.

[Radio_Lady]

26. Geraldine Ferraro has gone the furthest... if you recall her from 1984.

Geraldine Anne Ferraro (born August 26, 1935) is a politician from New York who, while serving in the United States House of Representatives, received the nomination of the Democratic Party to run for Vice President of the United States in 1984.

Ferraro is the first (and, to date, only) woman to be so nominated on a major party ticket, and is the best-known woman to have run for the Vice Presidency. She and fellow Democrat Walter Mondale were defeated in a landslide by the re-election campaign of President Ronald Reagan and Vice President George H. W. Bush in the 1984 election.

[JeremyWestenn]

28. I remember her.

From the history text books in school, I was only born in 1987 after all. ;) I know she had a television show, I wonder if it still airs. I get most all my news straight from cnn.com, not the networks on TV themselves generally.

I did hear that many believed that her nomination was really a last ditch means to try and garner some extra support/buzz against Reagan. That he clearly was going to win the race and they were just trying to create some splash?

[Radio_Lady]

34. I was doing radio work for CBS during that election. I think the electorate was

not really locking in with Mondale -- Geraldine Ferraro was a very likeable candidate and a good debater.

[Captain Hilts]

130. I like Gerry Ferraro, but she got squashed like a bug in the general election. nt

[wisteria]

146. oh, I remember that race. She was running for VP. n/t

[clarquistador]

12. Will never vote for Senator Clinton. PERIOD!

If after 8 years of neocon BS, the best we can do is nominate someone like Hillary Clinton who rubberstamps neocon policies, then this party is not worth supporting. I'd vote for someone like Chuck Hagel before I support Hillary Clinton and I'm fairly liberal socially, economically, and politically.

Seriously folks, you all need to wake up. Just look at the kind of liability and annoyance people like Joe Lieberman have been to our party.

Dems need to understand that the political system in this country needs to be overhauled. Yesterday's status quo and mode of thinking no longer work.

[JeremyWestenn]

16. Third party candidates

...Will never make a difference. If you don't vote for the Democrat, assuming your not in a state that's completely Republican electoral vote wise, then you'r only enabling the opposition. :\

[clarquistador]

21. Nonsense

Considering this IS America and considering that we have this consumerist culture that prides itself on having CHOICES, I find it funny that the only choice 280 million people have is voting for two parties that are more or less the same, take money from the same interests, and are bent on representing the interests of a couple of lobbies and corporations.

Neoconservatism needs to be ejected PERMANENTLY from the political process in this country. Hillary Clinton has accomodated this neoconservatism in the past. If you can't acknowledge this after 8 years, then well, you ain't thinking hard enough.

[JeremyWestenn]

25. I understand what your saying about having only a choice between two parties.

However, I still believe wholeheartedly that this system is never going to chance. There will never be a viable third party in this nation barring a civil war or some massive schism in one of the current parties. And while I think a lot of what you said up there is true I still beleive that it's really either one or the other.

[clarquistador]

32. Only 30-40% of Americans fit entirely within the ideologies of the GOP and Dems

That's why the majority of voters in this country call themselves "Independent".

Political participation in this country is low because people have lost faith in this kind of governance. That is because they are tired of being reduced to picking between the lesser of two evils.

Even in this latest midterm elections, what was the turnout? It was something like 50% which is fairly low considering all that's happened these past 8 years.

People have been turned off to politics, because they have no real choices.

I would like to see a stronger Libertarian and a more viable Green Party in this country. That would be healthy for our democracy.

[bahrbearian]

81. I'm really starting to like your Posts.

Yeehaaw.

[clarquistador]

92. Grrrrracias!

Nice to know there's a fan club in town.

Cheers.

[juajen]

140. Excuse me, but where are you getting your facts?

Hillary Clinton's voting record was around 95% liberal the last time I checked. Do not come on here and spew anything but facts. Believe me, you will be called on it. I know she voted for the IWR, but so did 98% of congress. She will certainly be called on that by a hell of a lot of dems. I trust she will have answers ready.

[libneo]

78. I hear you. So what?

[jonnyblitz]

13. just shut the fuck up and fall in line?

I don't do lockstep or "march" for anybody even though I always vote for the DEM. what an obnoxious post.

[JeremyWestenn]

15. That's purposefully taking my post out of context so you can whine even more.

STFU as in stop bickering, stop showing a split in the party, and march as one united force. If we had half the unity the Republicans did we'd steamroll campaigns all over this country. Local, state, nationall, everything.

So yeah, STFU and march in line when the parade starts to pass your house.

That's what I meant. Do you get it now?

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Radio_Lady]

22. self delete

[salin]

29. heh... some might consider calling folks "war mongers"

an attack at best, a flame at least. :shrug:

[JeremyWestenn]

31. They could take it that way.

But I think it's still clear that some people just try to start things for the sake of starting them and pumping themselves up during/afterwords. A way of making them big. As such I think it's a perfect name to describe them.

:\

[AtomicKitten]

24. I too will work my ass off for the Dem nominee in the general.

'nuff said.

On edit: I respect your opinion. Other than the IWR vote which precludes my voting for her in the primary, I have no objections to Hillary.

[JeremyWestenn]

27. Thanks. :)

Some people are doing the whole mean streak against my, trying to start fights to pump themselves up. Quite disconsorting.

And to think that person even reported this thread, as if this is even remotely obscene!

[ruggerson]

33. You'll notice DU's polls are seriously out of whack with national, scientific surveys

DU is in no way in touch with the heart of the Democratic party - we are about 50 degrees to the left of where most Democrats are.

[Catchawave]

35. Yes indeed....

This seems to be the only place in the world that Democrats who voted for the IWR is being discussed. Hillary hasn't even denounced her vote, and she's still mega digits away from her Dem rivals. It's quite the opposite on DU polls :evilgrin:

[Radio_Lady]

38. Pardon me. I'm bewildered. What does the acronym IWR mean?

Is it Iraq WaR?

Acronym dictionary says:

IWR I Will Report
IWR Institute for Water Research
IWR Institute for Water Resources
IWR Institute for Wood Research
IWR Inter-Works Requisition
IWR Internal Work Request
IWR Internet Weather Report
IWR Isolated Word Recognition

[AtomicKitten]

39. Iraq War Resolution.

[Radio_Lady]

41. Thanks, Atomic Kitten. BTW, great photo of Al and Tipper!

[AtomicKitten]

50. :)

[Radio_Lady]

55. Cool! But unlike the little girl who advised Abe Lincoln to grow a beard,

I'd advise Al Gore to SHAVE HIS! (That is, if he still has one!)

[DesertRat]

97. The beard is long gone.

You should have seen President Gore on Leno the other night. He was wonderful! Articulate, funny, intelligent. Everything that the current resident of the White House is NOT.

[mourningdove92]

30. Kicked and recommended!

[JohnnyLib2]

36. I would support her,

just like every D nominee since JFK. Being a liberal is a life long job, seems to me.

[ElizabethDC]

40. I agree. People should give her a chance.

Here at DU, a lot of people seem to have an irrational hatred of Hillary that is just as hard-headed as that of the Republicans. Sure, I understand that people have some legitimate policy disagreements with her, but it's hard to find a candidate who you'll agree with 100% of the time. I think Hillary, as with all of our potential candidates, offers us more good than bad on the whole. I'm eager for the primaries because I want to see which strengths each candidate can bring to the table, and I hope that we can all keep (somewhat) open minds.

As for those who say they'll never vote for Hillary (or any other Democratic candidate), just remember that voting for a third party candidate is tantamount to voting for the other side. Your protest vote will be sending a message to the wrong people.

[JeremyWestenn]

42. What about her VP?

I once mentioned that I wouldn't mind a Clinton/Obama ticket. This guy near me said, " What? A woman and a black on the same ticket? No way! " I think they'ld compliment each other, and I think VP is much more fitting for Obama then the Presidency considering he's only beein the Senate a little over 2 years.

Any thoughts?

[Radio_Lady]

46. Jeremy, you've made up an interesting ticket. It's flamboyant and progressive.

I'm still sticking by my feminist prediction from the 1960s that a black man will assume the presidency before a white woman. That's just my opinion.

But the ticket of Clinton/Obama would be pretty exciting! Maybe divisive, but maybe that's what we need. Something to stir up Democrats.

Especially against John McCain at 72, a flip-flopper and an elderly one with cancer, at that.

[JeremyWestenn]

53. I know! Wouldn't it be awsome!!

With her leadership and his personality they'd just roll over the Republicans like they were a gravel road! It'd be so awsome! However, I'm afraid that she'd be so concerned about electibility she might night jump for that. :\

Is it me or does it seem that during election years that Democrats become so concerned with eligibility that instead of standing up we shut up? :(

And wowsers, were getting a long. ;) Totally putting you on my buddy list.

[Radio_Lady]

57. Thanks, Jeremy. I get a little pompous occasionally about spelling.

Sorry about that. I'm a copywriter, radio announcer and talk show host, and correct speech and spelling are more important to me than many others.

Have a great day, Buddy!

[bagimin]

48. IF Clinton can secure the nomination

she's going to need a strong V.P. It might be Obama.

[libneo]

75. Obama is too weak.

[Radio_Lady]

44. Well stated, Elizabeth DC. I can't see supporting third party candidates,

and of course, I'm not going to vote Republican.

In the primaries, I might give the edge to a couple of the male candidates (depending on their situation at that time). I am willing to set aside any pre-conceived ideas and make my decision based on who I think would be the best candidate.

Ultimately, in the general election, I'll go for any Democrat the party nominates, including Hillary (with two Ls).

Thanks for your thoughtful post, Elizabeth.

In peace,

Radio_Lady

[JeremyWestenn]

49. Yeah on Elizabeth.

She pretty much owned that idea of voting for third party candidates.

[YOY]

43. I...rather...don't

We can do better than a hawk who pushed stupid issues to appease the soccer moms and NASCAR dads. (Oh yes, it's obiously the video games killing people Hil...way to lose the youth vote!)

Other than that I despise legacies...point in figure in the White House now.

Fresh blood. Fresh ideas. They're what's for dinner in 08.

[JeremyWestenn]

45. Regarding the video games comment.

I am a gamer. Been playing since I was 10. Started with a PS1,(Gods bless FF7) got a PS2, Game Cube, Computer, and am now a huge Massive Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game gamer O_O... Yeah.

Anyways, the real issue with the video games standpoint is that if Wal-Mart actually does sell an Adult rated full on porno game to a 7 year old there is literally no state or federal reprecussion. What it means is that the only punishment possible to come down on the store and clerks is from inside. Now, no censorship law is ever going to be passed via video games. No censorship criteria will ever be based. It just won't stand judicial review. And in regards to needing more control and actual enforcement of not selling Teen, Mature, and Adult games to minors I am with her on that we need some real regulation there. Everything else is just smoke to make herself favorable with other people. And that's politics.

[YOY]

54. The real issue is that it's a non-issue that should have never been brought up

And that Hillary is a hawk who is trying to cover her ass with fluff like this...and it is bad PR for Dems IMHO.

We need a real Dem. Not republican light. There are plenty others to chose from.

I've been gaming since Pac Man in the arcade personally (not to one up you or anything). ;) Don't really like the MMORPG trend. I prefer single player stuff. Just my cup of tea.

[JeremyWestenn]

56. Oh! You must try World of Warcraft!

It's so casual and fun! You can go to Wal-mart and purchase these little 14 day passes for like 2 dollars. It really is a delight! ;) Most casual MMO out there.

Don't mean to convert you, I just tend to try and do that with people. (Ask my friend Katie. She's addicted now! LOL!)

However, I do agree that the issue of the video games and the weak enforcement of the policies regarding their distribution probably could have had it's time spent on some more impacting issues.

[mtnsnake]

47. Mainstream Democrats love her. The extreme left whiners & RW neocons don't.

To listen to some of the far leftist whiners (including some of the chronic complainers here on DU) talk about Hillary, you'd think Hillary deserved to be in prison or something. They lie about her worse than the right wing neocon assholes do. Then what happens is some of the more naive people buy into it instead of researching it on their own what she's really about.

Hillary is good at playing the game of politics. She's as crafty as she is well established. I think Obama is going to take over and win the primaries should he run, but if he doesn't and Hillary gets the nod, she'll be one fierce campaigner. If she becomes president, I'd have all the confidence in the world that she'll look out for the best interests of ALL democrats.

[JeremyWestenn]

51. /DUsalute@snake

And a Gnomish, " Huzzah! " for him.

[clarquistador]

52. So basically, over 50% of the country doesn't like her at all

Which is why after years of free press and association with the Clinton brand, she is currently considered the "frontrunner" with 33% backing her for the nomination.

[libneo]

74. So basically, over 70% of the country doesn't like Obama or any other candidate other than Hillary.

[clarquistador]

77. None of those candidates got nearly as much press time and name recog. as Hillary

that's the point.

Mind you, it was Lieberman who was the "frontrunner" in 2003-04. What does that tell you about "frontrunners"?

[libneo]

83. I'd rather have 33% support than 5% support, even at this early stage. Wouldn't you?

[clarquistador]

88. I don't think it means anything at this stage, that's the point.

All it means is that the powers-that-be in the media have chosen to promote Hillary Clinton 24-7-365.

[libneo]

91. I disagree. It means currently there is groundswell of support for Hillary.

[Radio_Lady]

58. Remember, she has to walk the tightrope in New York state.

Downstate (NYC) has a very different "political topography" than upstate. The Iraq war resolution was deeply tied in with her assumed support of Israeli interests. (The assumption is that Iraq has to be stable to maintain Israel's stability.)

More important, when is the next monetary allocation for the Iraq war coming up? I wonder how she will vote on THAT?

[juajen]

142. Good question.

Damned if she does and damned if she doesn't. You're so right; she walks a fine line and, I believe, is very adroit and capable. I will have a problem if Al Gore runs. Other than Al, I will support Hillary and, I might even support her over him. That would be a very hard decision.

[zulchzulu]

65. I know at least a dozen "mainstream Democrats" that don't want her to run

I personally know absolutely no one that wants her to run. That includes Democratic moderates, feminists, health care professionals, politicos to the left of center...and certainly moderate Republicans that would vote for anyone else.

As for Obama running in 2008, he won't. As far as Hillary and the 2008 primaries, she will drop out a day or two after Super Tuesday...winless.

[libneo]

72. Yeah, everyone I know wants her to run. Anecdotes are useless.

[Liberal Veteran]

94. You seem awfully defensive about wanting Hillary to be the democratic candidate

.....would you care to tell us what her positions are that make you support her so much?

[libneo]

95. I am not defensive. I am hopeful about her candidacy.

I like Senator Clinton as a person. I believe that is good enough a reason for me to want her to be my President.

[Liberal Veteran]

102. I'm sure that's very comforting, but let's get down to brass tacks, shall we?

Tell us specifically why she is stand out candidate to represent the democratic party in 2008? I'm sure she's quite nice and attractive and has name recognition, but tell us what positions she stands for that you think make her a good candidate?

[election_2004]

154. No answer from libneo?

Surprise, surprise.

Senator Clinton clearly has done nothing, legislatively, to distinguish herself from the rest of the pack.

[mtnsnake]

118. Is that supposed to surprise me or something?

I personally know absolutely no one that wants her to run. That includes Democratic moderates, feminists, health care professionals, politicos to the left of center...and certainly moderate Republicans that would vote for anyone else.

As for Obama running in 2008, he won't. As far as Hillary and the 2008 primaries, she will drop out a day or two after Super Tuesday...winless.

Yeah, that's mainstream Democrats have picked Hillary and Obama as their top two choices. Shows how much you know. lol

[Bobbie Jo]

59. Flame the Newb (me) if you will.....

But I actually admire Mrs. Clinton. Bottom line...I would support her or ANY other Dem who ultimately gets the nomination.

Am I too naive to think our party will close ranks when the nomination is a done deal? We can't afford to let this one slip away folks......We have more talent among our potential nominees than the Rethugs can ever hope to match within the next year and a half.

[JeremyWestenn]

60. Exactly.

[clarquistador]

62. If Hillary Clinton becomes President......

She will spend her entire first term trying to appease the Republicans, while alienating her own base in the process (she's done it again and again folks). That leads me to believe that little will change for the better under a Hillary Clinton presidency.

[The Magistrate]

69. That, Sir, Is Flat Nonesense

Democratic victory for President in '08 will almost certainly be accompanied by Democratic majorities in the House and Senate, and likely these will be large enough that the wobbles of persons in insecure seats would not threaten a working majority. In such a situation, there is no need to appease the opposition, though it will probably be adviseable to make friendly noises from time to time, and to recognize that policy will be best steered towards the middle ground, as it will be from their that the votes of victory will have been harvested. As a supporter of Gen. Clark, it surprises me you do not seem to understand this. Gen. Clark's greatest asset is his "cross-over" appeal: there are a number of persons who usually vote Republican who express a willingness to vote for Gen. Clark, and no other Democrat. In power, so skilled a diplomatic general as he is would doubtless take this into account in his speeches and formulation of policy.

[clarquistador]

76. Not really...

She would have to spend her entire first term appeasing the Republican electorate just so the Dems would have a chance of retaining control of the house and senate in the next midterms.

The difference with Clark would be that he is nowhere nearly as polarizing to the moderates and republicans as Hillary would be, therefore he has more room to maneuver.

[The Magistrate]

80. Why On Earth Do You Think That, Sir?

If the policies enacted by the Party are popular and successful, it will be retained. Majorities in the Congress do not alter at whim, or by some immutable law. Seats might here there be lost in the mid-terms, but could just as easily be gained if conditions are favoreable.

It is probably to our strategic benefit to main some degree of rabid polarization against us in the rump core of the right: the people are tired of them, and react against them, in our direction. The Republican Party today hovers on the verge of becoming explicityly a regional party of the South, and particularly of the white men of the South, and against this, it is quite possible to unite the whole country.

"I will fight the secesh till Hell freezes over, then fight on the ice!"

[clarquistador]

85. The same corporate interests that support Bush......

also support the Clintons.

These are the ELITES we're talking about, we're talking about the kingmakers, the bigmoney donors, etc. These are people who run the country. One year they vote Dem, the other Repug and they give support on the condition that the politicians kow-tow and promote their interests AT ALL COSTS.

And they are responsible for pushing for the war in Iraq. The war in Iraq did not emanate from the halls of congress, it emanated from the boardrooms and think tanks of these ELITES. To my knowledge these ELITES supported Bush, now they are scrambling to support Clinton. Why? Because they know it can get back to business as usual under her tutelage.

No more neoconservatism, no more big oil, no more war-profiteering. These are effectively the cancers of American politics and society and I won't vote for ANYONE who wants to accomodate these things.


The status quo needs to change, it is necessary for this country's future and well-being. Hillary Clinton is too much affiliated with this outdate and corrupt status quo.

I'm sorry to be so harsh, but the years between 2000-2008 should be permanently etched away in our memories. We need to do everything possible to make sure that it isn't repeated again.

[The Magistrate]

90. Ah, So We Get To The Meat Of the Matter, Sir

You are one of the 'not a dime's worth of difference' crew....

Put bluntly, Sir, the view you have expressed here at last is so simplistic it is difficult to settle in to engage it at any length.

Concentrations of wealth are always going to have a disproportionate influence in national and political life, and that is going to continue is some varying degree so long as there is wealth, and it can be concentrated into a few hands. The social arrangements of a country are not ever going to be overthrown at the ballot box: what we might call "more vigorous means" are required for that degree of alteration. But the country and its people are about as far from a pre-revolutionary situation as it is possible to get ouside of Eden.

[clarquistador]

99. I care about vision, policies, qualifications.....

I don't vote for people because of their last name or because the media told me to like them. If I wanted a friggin' dynasty I would have settled down in Great Britain where it's fashionable.

To my knowledge, I have not heard anything concrete or tangible from Hillary Clinton. BUT....what I do hear everyday is that I should vote for her because she's Bill Clinton's wife. That's it.

[The Magistrate]

104. Who Does Not Care About Such Things, Sir?

Do you seriously imagine all disagreement with you in this matter is the product of media manipulation? Or that invocation of the "friggin'" house of Windsor is some form of crushing argument?

But it does remind me of story: Mr. Mailer, who popularized that euphemism in "The Naked and the Dead" was introduced early in his celebrity to Ms. Tallulah Bankhead, who greeted him with, "So you're the young man who can't spell fuck."

[LibertyorDeath]

98. Welcome !

Good post!










(Yeah I know pretty bizarre just humor him and move along...)

[bahrbearian]

86. Your Honor , Clark doesn't have the IWR baggage to carry,

Plus Hilliary will not retract that vote.

[The Magistrate]

93. The Number Of People That Will Matter To, Sir, In A General Election

Could congregate comfortably in a large rural high school's gymnasium. It is not a factor outside the sort of circles that view the vote as a criminal act in the first place. Any Democrat running for President in '08 will be viewed by the people at large as the person who is going wind down and terminate the folly of occupying Iraq, which, you may be certain, will still be going on.

Gen. Clark would in my view make an excellent President, and be a damned tough campaigner. The Party could do a lot worse than to nominate him. Please do not take my comments here as indicating whole-hearted support on my part for Sen. Clinton as the Party's nominee. Defending a person against disparragement that seems to me mis-guided and over the top is not the same thing as that....

[bahrbearian]

87. Duplicate post

[Cameron27]

61. Thanks for the thoughtful post,

Hillary isn't among my top 3 choices (Clark, Gore and Obama), but I don't share the same intense dislike for her that others do.

Her IWR vote is a big influence on how I feel about her, but it's also a factor for all the Dems who voted that way. Of course I'll support her if she gets the nomination.

Peace, welcome to DU, and good luck with this thread. :)

[zulchzulu]

63. One Clinton is enough for me

As far as supporting Hillary Clinton, good luck!

As far as only one Clinton (Bill), although I liked many parts of his presidency, there is plenty that I disagree with policy-wise. NAFTA, GATT, welfare "reform", Telecommunications Act, Marriage Amendment... I'm not even getting into the thing with the chick and the dress...

As for Hillary, I'm certain she won't make it past Super Tuesday in the primaries due to people thinking that she would be the greatest uniter for the far left to get out the vote as well as the demonization ready to go that would make the Swiftboat Twits piling on Kerry look like child's play.

[More Than A Feeling]

64. I haven't seen anyone talk about her support for criminalizing flag burning

To me, her support for that is a fundamental misunderstanding of core American values. If she truly believes in that, then she is diminished as a standardbearer for our party in my eyes. If she doesn't actually believe that, then the potential for me to trust her is diminished. Which is it?

I also question the value to America of having the presidency pass back and forth between two families.

I might still potentially support her (I haven't chosen a candidate yet), but someone would have to convince me, without using electability arguments, that her vision and ability are better than the two flaws I have named.

That having been said, I will be voting for the Democrat in the general election.

[zulchzulu]

66. That was where she completely lost my vote...there's no excuse for that

Criminalizing the burning of the flag as a federal crime is pure pandering bordering on jingoistic foolishness. She thought that her supporters wouldn't care...eh, it's just a crime to express your freedom to express yourself.

As for the oligarchical banana republic nature that have two families control the White House for up to 28 years, I'm very uncomfortable with that too.

Like many I know, I'm not convinced she would be the right person for the White House...I'd hold my nose and vote for her in the General, but that's not going to happen anyway.

[More Than A Feeling]

67. When you are proposing bills to the right of Antonin Scalia, you might be too conservative.

Star-Spangled Pandering

By Richard Cohen

Thursday, December 15, 2005; Page A33

Last month Justice Antonin Scalia was politely quizzed by Norman Pearlstine, the outgoing Time Inc. editor in chief. The event, held in Time Warner's New York headquarters, was supposedly off the record, but so much of it has already been reported that it will not hurt to add Scalia's views on flag burning. He explained why it was constitutionally protected speech. It's a pity Hillary Clinton was not there to hear him.

The argument that this famously conservative member of the Supreme Court advanced -- actually, reiterated -- was that while he may or may not approve of flag burning, it was clear to him that it was a form of speech, a way of making a political statement, and that the First Amendment protected it. I could not agree more.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/14/AR2005121401887.html

[ruggerson]

68. Didn't she propose that in an effort to sidestep the Const. Amendment?

my recollection of this is fuzzy, but could she have proposed this, knowing that it would go down in defeat, would stop the even more ridiculous amendment and would then give her ammo down the line when the Republicans shreiked in mock horror that she was in favor flag burning?

Like it or not, politics sometimes takes some shrewd calculating.

[More Than A Feeling]

70. It's possible, and if you find some good evidence of this,

I will reconsider my objection to her on this issue. However, I find it unlikely, given that the constutional amendment was going to succeed or fail on its own merits (it failed by one vote, if I remember correctly). I fail to see how proposing a slightly watered down version is an attempt to defeat the amendment. It looks more like an attempt to make the idea of criminalizing flag-burning into law by trying to sidestep the constitution.

Also, I don't approve of toying with the First Amendment for the sake of personal political innoculation.

[The Magistrate]

71. That Is The Case, Sir

"Democracy is the art of running the circus from the monkey cage."

[More Than A Feeling]

73. Do you have some evidence of that? n/t

[The Magistrate]

82. Merely My Memory Of Events As They Were Occuring, Sir

"I never forgive: I often forget."

[More Than A Feeling]

84. That isn't good enough for me. I'm sure you understand. n/t

[jgraz]

79. I called Hillary's office 2 days before the vote on the MCA

Her receptionist said that she still hadn't decided what her position was.

Hillary will be the toughest Dem for me to support if she gets the nomination. I just hope to god she never does.

Edit: Cuz it's the MCA, not the MCS

[AtomicKitten]

100. I view a lot of her positions

as posturing to prove her testosterone, one of the perils of running for the top job when you're a girl. :) I do, however, believe we would be better served if she remained in the Senate as perhaps Speaker. She has a brilliant wonkette mind that is well-suited for that position.

[jgraz]

111. You mean majority leader...

but I wouldn't support her for that either. I'd like to see the Dem leadership start including many more progressives in the coming years.

As far a proving you have "balls", being a warmonger is not required. Just look at Barbara Lee, Stephanie Tubbs-Jones, Barbara Boxer, Eleanor Holmes-Norton, etc etc etc (not to mention Pelosi). These are some of the toughest people in the Democratic party, regardless of gender.

[AtomicKitten]

117. yeah, that's what I meant

My brain is flu-ridden! I was just explaining why I think she does it; doesn't mean I support that technique.

Still it's tough being a girl in a good 'ol boy world.

[GenDem]

126. She voted against the MCA

Check the record.... and she had a very thought provoking speech prior to the vote on the senate floor where she invoked the constitution and George Washington.

I'm not happy with her vote giving Bush the authorization to go to war, but for god's sake, Edwards voted the same way.

Although I don't agree with her on everything, and have written and called her office when I have been upset about a vote.

I was honored to be asked to work on her senatorial campaign, and had the chance to meet with her (ever so briefly) a couple times during and immediately after the campaign. I also was invited to sit in on one of her debates with john Spencer. I can say that she is very likable, warm, and personable. She made me feel very special and was very grateful for the work I had done. She's also brilliant and seems to have a photographic memory, remembering events and recalling at any little mention.

I worked for her in my very red county and she won by 58.9%. She has won over the people here in western NY and that says a lot.

Regarding '08 - If she wins the nomination, I will support her completely. I also like Obama, but I'll support whoever the nominee is and if it isn't Hillary, I feel fortunate to have her as my senator.

[election_2004]

127. But people here aren't talking only about the General Election....

Some of us are focused on the evaluation of the pool of candidates for the presidential primaries.

No one has given any evidence to support the assertion that Senator Clinton is the "most qualified" out of any of the possible presidential hopefuls.

The best they can do is utter the mantra, "She has the money, and she's a woman - - and other women will vote for her in droves."

Which is pretty lousy (not to mention sexist) criteria for selecting a candidate.

[GenDem]

128. I'm focused on the primary field, but

I just wanted to show Hillary's attributes from my personal perspective. I know that perspective was from a national race where her opponent was a right wing republican, not a primary field full of other Democrats. I don't know if she's the most qualified, and didn't say she was. I just wanted to insert my personal experience.

As of today we know that Tom Vilsack has announced and that Evan Bayh is going to announce, the rest are just speculation. We are so early in this, and there is so much divisiveness already. I am just going to sit back and observe at this point. I'm not going to judge the field, especially when I don't even know who the field is going to be.

I know that when we pick a nominee, I will be supporting the Democrat.

[election_2004]

129. That's great

And it's always refreshing to see people who want to "shop around" before committing to one candidate (I'm in much the same position myself, with probably more narrowed down choices than yourself).

It's fine to declare that you will support the Dem nominee, no matter who it is; but we haven't reached that stage of the game yet.

[jgraz]

138. I know how she voted

My point is that she still had her finger in the wind 48 hours before the vote. Torture and habeus corpus are not issues that someone should have to work out their positions on.

And even though I think Edwards' apology for his Iraq War vote is too little, too late, at least he has apologized. I don't recall hearing any words of regret from Senator Clinton.

[StrictlyRockers]

89. 88 comments and only 5 recs?? DU is NOT Hillary country.

But I like her a lot. I don't like her as much as Kucinich, not by a mile. I would jump for joy if we could get a true progressive in the White House. Where is Jed Bartlett when I need him? Hillary is what I am willing to settle for.

SR

[Cameron27]

96. I'll add a recommend

Hil deserves support, even if not from me right now.

[snowbear]

101. A Hillary thread gets 100 replies..

And I can't even get ONE DU'er to respond to my Dean's trip to Europe thread.. even with begging..

Crazy, ain't it?

[Cameron27]

105. Ooh I'm sorry, I would've if I saw it--

heck I'd respond just to see your cool smilies!

[The Magistrate]

106. For Better Or Worse, Ma'am

People like the fights....

"It's the blood that draws the crowds."

[DesertRat]

103. Senator Clinton is not my candidate of choice for 2008

But of course, if she is the nominee I will back her 100%. The good news of a Hillary win is at least we'd get Big Dog back in the White House.
:)

[philly_bob]

107. Clinton for Cabinet! Glad she's on our team. Tremendous respect. BUT...

I have questions about her electability at the top of the ticket.

They've been laying in wait for her for six years now.

The Bill/Hillary drama will just muddy the waters.

PLUS, we got a lot of real good candidates: Gore, Kerry, Clark, Edwards.

[election_2004]

108. Well, I....rather....don't.

Do I think she could win a General Election? Sure. The media will say that McCain is "too old." Hagel's comments about bringing back the draft will be used against him. Brownback is simply looney tunes.

But she will also HURT downticket Democratic candidates who run for competitive seats in red and purple states.

All the RNC will have to do is run around the South and Midwest and other "purple" districts shouting, "Hillary Clinton supports partial-birth abortion! Congressional Candidate X wants to serve in the party of Hillary Clinton and lead our nation down that path!"

Republican candidates will win those congressional seats, and possibly even take back Congress - - yes, even in spite of all the so-called moderate Republican women who will secretly vote for Hillary against their husbands' wishes (many of them are the infamous "split-ticket voters," who will support Hillary out of "sisterhood" and a desire for a change, yet will support their Republican incumbents or Republican challengers in order to ensure divided government).

Then, when the 2010 midterms come rolling around, Democrats running in midterm races will have to distance themselves from President Hillary and the wingnuts' irrational myth of her supposed LIBRULISM.

Of course, the MSM whores will eat it all up, because it enables them to portray the Democratic Party as "imploding" while perpetuating a partisan impasse over power.

On a personal level, I think everything she's said and done since 1999 has been solely with an eye on the presidency in 2008 - - and that rubs me the wrong way.

[libneo]

109. Let's be frank here. GOP can always

say that the Democratic candidate is a democrat and support democratic principles and all the people in the South and the Midwest would vote against our candidate. The only way to win is to nominate a Republican like McCain.

[election_2004]

110. Oh, come on....

Do you honestly believe that Clark or Bayh would be equally as effective of a rallying tool for the Far Right base as Hillary Clinton would?

Do you honestly believe that Democrats would lose congressional seats or races in the South and Midwest because swing voters believe those Dem congressional candidates are "Too much like Wes Clark?" or "Too much like Evan Bayh?"

[StrictlyRockers]

112. I honestly believe that the woman voters who vote for her would outweigh all that.

We have never had a female head of state. Almost every other modern, industrialized country has. Even Pakistan and India have. We lag far behind the world here. A lot of people realize that. A lot of women voters realize that. Hillary will carry so many women voters that it will outweigh the far right's slander of her.

SR

[election_2004]

114. Does it also guarantee they will vote for congressional Dems?

Because many of them will vote for Hillary because she's a woman, while simultaneously voting for their local Republican.

[StrictlyRockers]

116. I think you are predicting this correctly. Don't believe the hype on Mrs. C.

She is a good one.

[election_2004]

119. And besides that....

As a president who must preside over a newly-invigorated Republican congressional majority, she could simply blame everything that goes wrong on them. Hmmm, how convenient for her...

[libneo]

122. You theory about congressional election is wrong.

A presidential candidate's job is to get elected the President of the United States. Nothing more, nothing less.

[election_2004]

124. So you're not worried.....

....about the prospect of Hillary Clinton as president along with a Republican majority in Congress?

[libneo]

133. She will help us achive a clean sweep.

But if I have to choose between congressional control and control of the white house, I'd rather have a Democratic president.

[election_2004]

151. Pass me some of that weed you're smoking....

Because your pie-in-the-sky fantasies are a frivolously entertaining departure from the real world.

[JeremyWestenn]

137. Something I doubt sincerely...

Is that Hillary Clinton would cause the Republicans to win back Congress. No one forgets something like the last 6 years. It is my firm belief that we will probably hold the House and Senate for 10-12 years before another switch. Unless a party decides to run Hitler as their candidate I don't ever see the possibility of House and Senate change happening because of the impact of a Presidential candidate. Someone that bad as a politician and person would never win a primary.

[election_2004]

153. Well I sincerely don't want to take that risk....

Sorry, but while your optimism is noble, it's too big a gamble to take.

Every congressional seat can make a difference, and I don't want to see the Dems nominate someone who is sure to bring out the RW loonies in droves.

[libneo]

113. The democratic passion of Hillary can overcome the Republican hate

The republicans were very effective in neutralizing my candidate General Clark last time around. You just have to fight for what you believe in or who you believe in.

[election_2004]

115. How did the Republicans "neutralize" Clark?

Clark's disadvantages in the '04 primaries were that he entered the race way too late, as well as a majority of attacks on his resumee came from OTHER DEMOCRATS who ran in the primaries.

[libneo]

121. Other democrats used the weapons prepared by Republicans

to attack Clark. And today too many democrats are parroting the Republican memes against Hillary.

[election_2004]

125. Could you clarify?

Are you saying that the GOP was so afraid of the prospect of Clark becoming the Dem nominee, it prepared talking points for his Dem opponents to use against him in the primaries?

Seriously, do you believe that there are ZERO reasons to be critical or nervous about the prospect of a Hillary Clinton nomination, in terms of the General Election?

[libneo]

134. GOP was afraid of Clark. No doubt about it.

There are a lot of reasons to be critical of anyone including Hillary, but nothing can keep me from supporting her.

[election_2004]

152. That's cute, but unfortunately....

...but NOT everyone else can bring themselves to share your blind faith in one person.

[sojourner]

120. thank-you very much...my thoughts exactly

except that as a senator she has been too cozy with the dlc for my liking. that said, i firmly believe that she'd make a whale of a president and that she has the progressive instincts that would lead to more progressive direction than, say, obama. and she's a woman. methinks it's time for a female head of state in the usa.

[MasonJar]

123. I also really like Hillary and I think she is quite progressive. If you

recall, she worked very hard for bill on a universal health plan, which the Newt Gingrich's shot down. In addition, these same idiots excoriated her for calling for a free Palestinian state, which everyone now agrees is the correct course. She is centrist, and I am fine with that. It is soon time for a woman, and after Bush the opportunity is ripe. However, I will work for whomever the dems choose. I lean toward Clark if Gore does not run, but I also feel that the Democratic Party has a deliciously grand group of potential candidates. My worry is how will the world make it two more years?

[BoneDaddy]

131. Don't you dare try to shame me

or anyone else by your "STFU". I sir, or madam, have a choice. Don't give me this GW Bush bullshit of the left's version of bully politics. I don't have to like or love who you think I should based upon fear. I will choose who I want to, no because you tell me to.

[JeremyWestenn]

132. Regarding that absurd statement.

It was dishonest. What you just said would have been appropriate had I demanded you support Hillary. No. What I wrote was that you support whoever the Democratic candidate is after the primary and stop the goddamn bickering that you people do on here all the time and to try and stop any bickering that may come after the nomination is made. Cause after that's done it's either our person or theirs. To respond in a different fashion other then actually responding to what I am saying is beyond dishonest, it's downright done on purpose. Learn2read.

[libneo]

135. I actually feel many on DU are practicing the left version

of Bush politics. No one is forcing you to support Hillary. But a lot of people here are demanding us to oppose Hillary.

[JeremyWestenn]

136. Quote for Truth.

Quoted for mother fucking truth.

[Blue-Jay]

148. You two make quite a team.

It helps to plan things out in advance.

[Ninja Jordan]

139. JUST SAY NO: To monarchies

[JeremyWestenn]

141. I hate to say this...

But I think that whole sort of opinion is a " Fight the establishment! " punk hippie mentality. First off, this is a Democracy. Clearly. And if you think it'd be like a dynasty or monarchy then that's your view, but the above is mine.

[Trajan]

143. I dont particularly like the tenor of your commentary ....

But yeah, I will vote for her .....

She isnt my first choice, but yeah ..... she will get my vote ....

[Vektor]

144. I don't dislike Hillary...

I have met her in person also, and it's true that she is pleasant, warm, and likeable. She's a very nice looking lady in real life too. Very petite and has a pretty face.

[wisteria]

145. I wish I could say I would work to get her elected, but I just can't bring

myself to support her, and if I tried to promote her in the area I live in, I would lose my credibility. The mention of hillary Clinton as our candidate seems to make people make ugly faces. I have even had some people who were Repubs and have changed their party to Democrat, say they will not vote for her just because they are Democrats. I see her as a way to lose newly integrated Dem's back to the Repubs.
Now, this is just my opinion and what I have come across in the area I live in. However, I do come from a blue state.

You do know that some people are sick of the Clinton's? Some people consider them both immoral and shady?

[byronius]

149. I agree -- whoever wins, I will support.

I'm a Gore-guy, but I respect Hillary, Obama, Clark, Edwards. I think the acid directed at Hillary from the Progressives is somewhat warranted, but I still think she's make a good president. Gore, however, is The Human Being President, after long last.

[Beausoir]

150. I like her. I think she has the mental toughness required for the job.

She is intelligent and mature.

I willl be proud to cast my vote for her. Very proud.