JCS Chair Peter Pace

[Stinky The Clown]

[wakeme2008]

1. remember before the Gay thing he was called Rummy's Parrot

:shrug:

[saltpoint]

2. Hi, Husb2Sparkly.

I want to like the guy. He seems a lot more with it than Tommy Franks, for exampe, but on the other hand, lesbians and gays can serve admirably in military units (and have for centuries), and Pace's boss didn't need the extra dust-up in the media after that bang-up triumph in Brazil and Mexico, etc.

He made a remark that seems antiquated by APA standards. I don't know crap about the details, but I was told homosexuality was no longer classified as a "disorder," and that a bunch of well-trained shrinks said so.

I'm wondering why Pace didn't know that, or if he did know it, why he said what he did.

It seemed to be a remark that was uncalled for and pointlessly insensitive.

I voted 'Other' - borderline bigot in a brain fog.

[MissMarple]

4. "borderline bigot in a brain fog"....

:rofl:

That is hilarious. I could vote for that one. I don't know anything about Pace's religious beliefs, but bigot is definitely applicable, and brain fog just speaks for its self.

[saltpoint]

5. Hi, MissMarple. I'm still trying to figure out why he put his foot in his

mouth in a week his boss was already reeling from bad news.

Pace is smart enough to know that there are lesbians and gay men in the military. Why pick a fight?

Really odd public behavior by General Pace.

[Stinky The Clown]

10. He's from Brooklyn and a devout Roman Catholic .... he's also an Italian ..... the name .....

Pace (rhyme with 'space') is actually PAH-chay.

http://www.defenselink.mil/bios/pace_bio.html

Notice his Wiki entry - VERY recent.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Pace

[MissMarple]

15. Thanks. I checked to see if he is Opus Dei.

Only one source came up, probably not all that reliable. But the person also cited Alberto Gonzales, interestingly enough.:tinfoilhat:

http://www.rense.com/general74/vattt.htm

[Stinky The Clown]

7. I'm with you about wanting to like the guy ........

...... but he always makes it pretty much impossible.

[saltpoint]

8. Yes. I'm embarrassed to say I hadn't even considered the religious

angle before with Pace.

This is going to be a long 2 years or so for us because we have to witness this administration implode until a new president is inaugurated. It won't be pretty.

But it will be longer still for hangers-on in the Bush administration itself. I'm expected a long list of folks sending out resumes and moving on. When the roof's on fire, it's time to get out of the barn.

[DemKR]

3. Can I vote for both "Bigot" and "religious nuts"? lol

[Adelante]

6. I'm listening to an interesting talk on Young Turks

Wes Jr is on there and he talked about when he was an officer with gay soldiers in his unit. But he told this story about a unit under his father where soldiers said they were going to report their sergeant for being gay. The sergeant shot the two soldiers and then killed himself, because, as Wes Jr points out, of the homophobic acculturation coming down in the armed services.

This discussion is probably 20 minutes in. At some point (I saw only a clip) Uygur goes into a blistering riff on Iran.

http://www.theyoungturks.com/



On the fun side:

http://youngturks.vo.llnwd.net/o1/WesClark_SuckMyDick1_Edit.wmv

:D

[Ninja Jordan]

9. an honorable man who inappropriately revealed his personal opinions

Technically, Pace repeated the approach the New Testament takes re: homosexuality, where Paul calls it immoral and groups it with other sinful acts such as adultery and fornication. Whether that makes Pace a "nut" is up to debate. I don't believe it does; it is merely his religious viewpoint. As a liberal, I feel others are entitled to their belief systems. I would defend an atheist in a similar manner.

[Jai4WKC08]

13. He may be entitled to his "belief system"

But he is not entitled to advocate for a government policy based solely on religious belief. And as a member of the armed services, he should not be advocating for a policy at all.

That said, mostly I think he's kind of a dinosaur. The majority of the age-group to which the young enlisted troops belong don't give a damn about someone's sexual orientation. The inclusion of gay and lesbian soldiers pose no great harm to unit cohesion or readiness.

[Ninja Jordan]

14. I didn't say he was entitled to "advocate for a government policy...based on religious belief,"

In fact, I called his actions "inappropriate."

[Jai4WKC08]

16. But you called him "honorable"

I spent 20 years in the military. He knew before he spoke he was out of bounds. He doesn't care.

[Ninja Jordan]

17. Any American who dedicates their life to military service is honorable to me

it doesn't mean I agree with his personal beliefs, however.

[Jai4WKC08]

18. There's good and bad in every profession

And probably no one is all one way or the other, altho there are those at either extreme... also like any other profession.

So General Pace may have many honorable attributes. I don't know him. I do know two things. One, he violated the military code by expressing his personal religious beliefs publicly and he did it in an attempt to influence government policy, possibly at the behest of his political leadership. Two, I watched the ceremony when he took over from General Myers and I don't think I've ever seen such blatant fawning and sycophancy as was in Pace's speech. That too is contrary to military tradition. I was embarrassed.

I also have to question the honor of any senior military officer who goes along with this war and the way it's been prosecuted. I remember Vietnam and how the junior officers, as Colin Powell would later write in his autobiography, felt betrayed by their senior officers for not standing up for what was right. But since I don't know what Pace's reasons for staying are, or what he may think he's accomplishing (maybe keeping us from bombing Iran? curtailing mistreatment of prisoners? preventing some worse political tool from taking his place?), I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and withhold judgment.

[Ninja Jordan]

19. I respect your views. Thanks for your post.

[slackmaster]

11. Other - General Pace is misinformed

For a personal trait to have or lack morality, the trait must be the result of a personal choice.

Pace is simply misinformed about homosexuality - He thinks people choose their sexual orientation. A lot of people have that misunderstanding.

A little self-reflection is all it takes to dispel that one - Am I heterosexual because someone told me it was the right way to be, or because I am viscerally attracted to females and not to males?

Other than perhaps to piss off one's parents, why on Earth would someone choose to be a member of an oppressed group?

Sexual orientation is no more a matter of choice than is right-handedness vs. left-handedness. There may still be a few people who think southpaws are tools of Satan, but most of us know they are ignorant.

[rurallib]

12. Once upon a time being the head of the JCS meant a man

had some real talent. This guy and that clown that came before him are two of the dumbest fucking, ass-covering idiots that I have ever seen.