Who do you like more: President Clinton or Howard Dean?

[RageAgainstTheirMachine]

Given Governor Dean's recent criticisms of President Clinton's economic/budgetary policies, I was wondering who(especially Howard Dean supporters)you all "like" more. Yes, I am supporting a candidate already (not Howard Dean), but I am curious as to how (un)popular Dean and Clinton are relative to one another.

[MrSoundAndVision]

1. Ummm

Dennis Kucinich for President!

[corporatewhore]

3. same here

[mandyky]

2. Got a link for this "recent criticism"?

I like both, but I have not heard about this..

[deminflorida]

4. You've got to be kidding me....

Dean is in no league with Clinton, period. Never will be either.

[Demobrat]

7. That's true. Dean is in a league of his own.

He's Clinton without the zipper problem.

[IndianaGreen]

10. You are right! No zipper problem with Dean

And no "I did not have sex with that woman"!

Also, no Plan Colombia and bombing campaign and embargo of Iraq that resulted in the deaths of so many incidents, until Bush came along and outdid Clinton in every department.

[deminflorida]

14. Keep bashing Clinton and Dean Supporters may get that....

independent party candidate run you're after.

[IndianaGreen]

41. Plan Colombia, DOMA, Iraq sanctions, don't ask-don't tell..

Plan Colombia, DOMA, Iraq bombing & sanctions of Iraq; don't ask, don't tell. These were issues we had with Clinton when he was President. Why should we shut up now about them? Are some Democrats going to deify Big Dog as the repukes did with Reagan? I hope not!

[oasis]

37. If Dean had a "zipper" for his lips he could reduce his gaffe problem.

[retyred]

52. I've decided not to trash dean anymore

except in defense on a pro Clark thread.

Is agreeing with a slam on dean from another poster considered trashing?

If so....nevermind

If not....I agree with you



retyred in fla
“good night Paul, wherever you are”
So I read this book

[oasis]

66. Try this: Does Dr. Dean regret saying things that he has to retract later?

Pointing out important character flaws is something that we do for our friends if we care for them.

[batman]

5. hey marcus

hows things? :hi:

[batman]

6. dean - who speaks to clinton almost daily clarified his remarks

for those that didnt understand them

he has the highest regard for bill clinton and the feeling appears to be mutual

[oasis]

31. Yet another Dean "clarification". He is developing a serious gaffe pattern

which will keep him constantly on the defensive.

[TLM]

51. Yeah Gaffs like Gore's love canal and internet gaffs?

Gaffs that are in fact nothing more than bullshit spin and misrepresentations of what he actualy said by his detractors, who then try to attack Dean for correcting their spin.

Nice try.

If Dean actually said half the crap his opponents say he said... why do they never provide full quotes or links so those comments can be read in context? Why do those folks who attack Dean depend of half sentences being cut out of context from some 3rd party op ed piece in the socialist journal or from weloveclark.com or some crap like that?

[oasis]

65. The lazy mainstream media misinterpreted Gore's remarks. Dean had

to retract many of his statements after thinking them over. There's a difference.

[mikehiggins]

8. Clinton without a doubt. n/t

[arewethereyet]

70. what he said

nothing likable about Dr Dean. Since the top spot is a popularity contest, would not bode well for him.

[TeacherCreature]

9. that "controversy" like all the others manufactured by Dean's opponents

is mostly smoke being blown, you know where. I like them both. Clinton was a wonderful president, but he made some whopping mistakes and was too centrist, to much of a triangulator for me.

[windansea]

38. where would you place clinton?

[in_cog_ni_to]

11. I'm not a Dean supporter

See below...what's not to like?

Clinton Policies

Tried to get Universal Health Care
National Health Care Costs rising at 10% per annum. Cut to 3%
Deficit Reduction Package
Crime Bill
100,000 cops on street—crime down down down
Welfare Reform-- Mend do not end. GOP helped bit time
80% increase in child welfare payments
Job Growth-Record 236,000 per month. (Reagan/Bush 167,000)
Largest percentage of Americans working in history
Largest Home Ownership in history
Record number of small business formations
Tax Cut for 15 million working families
Family and Medical Leave Act
Defense Reinvest and Conversion—Bush enjoying weapons created by Clinton
Direct loan programs for students
Guts to put promises in a book "Putting People First"-58 promises in book. Took action on 56 in first two years.
Second best record in history for getting legislation through Congress in first to years. LBJ number one.
Reinvented Government—cut payroll
Fewest number of civilians on federal payroll in 36 years
Attacked cop killing nasty rifle association.
Attacked the cancer inducing tobacco industry
Promoted a global effort to ban abusive forms of child labor
Loan 12.8 Billion to Mexico. Made 800 Million profit. Kept Mexico afloat.
Wash. Post kept list of campaign promises. 162. Took action on 96% in first two years.
Took on prejudice toward other Americans in military
Took on his own Southern Baptist Church
Hard smart work in Middle East and Bosnia-Kosovo
Honored with all of the following:
Dove of Peace Award
Rabin-Peres Peace Award
Gandhi Peace Award
Order of Good Hope Award
Nominated for Nobel Peace Award
Northern Ireland Peace Agreement
Lifeaholics of America Award for Quarter Century "Working for a Life Not Just A Living".
First President to visit Northern Ireland
Cleanup of Toxic sites. Record
Increasing weekly earnings
Shoo Shoo Saddam get away from Kuwait
Stopping Haitians from drowning enroute to freedom
First to visit South Africa
First to make a determined effort to help the African continent come together and grow together
Taxing top 1.2% of very wealthy to get Zoom Zoom Boom economy
Stopping Republicans in the House from raiding Medicare of 181 Billion
Stopping Republicans raid on Medicaid
Stopping Republicans raid on education
Stopping Republicans attack on environment
Largest increase in Education funding since GI Bill
Increased funding for Head Start
Nafta.. A success until the Peso went south
Submitting 8 budgets close to rate of inflation
Brady Bill
Gaat
Assault Weapons Ban
Telling Japan "You take our auto parts or we will apply tariffs on you
California Desert Protection
Forest Management Plan for Northwest
Restoration of Florida Everglades
Preservation of land in Utah
Major increase in funding for homeless
Motor Voter Act
Lobbying Reform Effort. Handshake with Newt who reneged
Pressure to get Campaign Finance Reform.
National Export Strategy. Unbelievable success.
Over 250 Trade pacts
Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation Pact
Summit of Americas
Super 301
Chemical Weapons Ban Treaty.
Bottom Up Review of Military
Agreement with Cuba to stop flow of immigrants to USA.
Ameri-Corps
Reduced Nuclear Threat Around the World
Community Banking Act
FEMA used as an active participant and a leader in disaster relief
Tax on well off social security beneficiaries
100,000 new teachers effort
5,000 new classroom effort
50% of classes thru K-12 on internet
Fourth Graders improvement on world tests
Lifetime Learning Opportunity Program
Controls on Spending and Borrowing
Pension Protection Act of 1994
Record high consumer confidence
Very, very, very low Misery Index
National Agenda on Racial Prejudices
First to get African-American unemployment under 10%
Balanced Budget
Record Corporate profits
Record Bank profits
Record Savings and Loan profits
Never whining despite non-sop smears and attacks
Not having a Mean Bone in his body per Historian David Maraniss
Not knowing how to hate
Classing others as "opponents" not "enemies"
Inviting your attackers to the White House functions
Inviting your defeated opponent Bob Dole to visit troops at Christmas
A national attack on hate crimes
Fighting to protect "legal" immigrants from Republicans in the House.
Fighting hard for Fast Track legislation
Kennedy and Kassenbaum Portability of Insurance
Lowest interest rates in 30 years
Allowing millions of homeowners to refinance home loans at lower (much) rates
Lowest unemployment in 25 years
Lowest inflation in 25 years
Lowest welfare rolls in 27 years
Lowest crime Rates in 25 years
First balanced budget sent to Congress in 29 years
Protecting worker pensions (repeat?)
Opposed ban on "Late Term Abortions"
A stock market which passed a 1,000 mark six times
Greatest growth in federal revenues in history
Played Saxophone and Smoked Peace Pipe, instead of beating War Drums like____.
One of History's all time workers for Peace
President in a year when Fortune Magazine classified it as "Greatest Economy in the History of the world"
Popularity jump in the midst of a scandal.
President with highest peacetime popularity in Asia, Africa, Russia and Europe.
Highest popularity of any president at end of fifth year in office
One of the most highly regarded First Lady in History.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

On edit...I forgot to include...The above info was given to me by a Clinton Historian. The info below is from Paul Begala's book.

Alan Greenspan, "Mr. President...


your commitment to fiscal discipline, which, as you know, and indeed have indicated, has been instrumental in achieving what in a few weeks....will be the longest expansion in the nation's history." January 4, 2000.

Former Federal Reserve Chairman Paul Volker, Audacity Fall, 1994......"The deficit has come down, and I give the Clinton Administration and President Clinton himself a lot of credit for that. He did something about it, fast.

"Clinton's 1993 budget cuts, which reduced red ink by more than $400 billion over 5 years, sparked a major drop in interest rates that helped boost investment in all the equiptment and systems that brought forth the New Age economy of technological innovation and rising productivity." Business Week, May 19, 1997

I believe this will lead to a recession next year. This is the Democrat Machine's recession, and each one of them will be held personally accountable. Rep. Newt Gingrich, republican press conference. August 5, 1993.


When Clinton took office, nearly 10 million Americans were unemployed. Under Clinton the American economy generated 22.88 MILLION new jobs. More jobs than ever before created under a single administration. More jobs than Presidents Reagan and Bush Sr. together created in twelve years. And 91% of the Clinton jobs were in the private sector.

POVERTY

If generating jobs is the heart of the economy, reducing poverty is it's soul. Under Clinton's policies, 8.2 MILLION Americans were lifted out of poverty. Enough to populate all of New York City. Clinton's economic policies caused a 21% reduction in the poverty rate---the greatest reduction since Lyndon Johnson's Great Society and the strongest economy of the 60's. Under George H. W. Bush, the number of Americans suffering in poverty INCREASED by 6.5 million. Clinton's economic policies "lifted all boats". Both the African American and Hispanic poverty rates fell to their lowest levels on record! The number of African American children in poverty fell nearly 33%, to an all time low. President Clinton raised 4.2 million children out of poverty.

This information is from "IT'S STILL THE ECONOMY, STUPID" by Paul Begala.

[Scoopie]

12. Clinton, of course

That other guy doesn't have near the charisma, charm, intelligence or sass.

[Jerseycoa]

16. What's not to like, indeed. nt

[ldoolin]

63. You can't be serious

Crime Bill
100,000 cops on street—crime down down down
Welfare Reform-- Mend do not end. GOP helped bit time
Defense Reinvest and Conversion—Bush enjoying weapons created by Clinton
Fewest number of civilians on federal payroll in 36 years
Shoo Shoo Saddam get away from Kuwait
Nafta.. A success until the Peso went south
Gaat

Don't forget the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, the Telecommunications Act, and the Antiterrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act. And Clinton presiding over the largest growth of the prison population in the history of this country.

No contest, Dean is the better person.

[in_cog_ni_to]

64. YOU can't be serious.

Dean could never come close to Clinton's intellect...not even close.

[arewethereyet]

72. the question was "like" Clinton very likable, Dean crabby

no contest.

[ldoolin]

74. Intellect Schmintellect

But you included things like NAFTA, welfare reform, and the Crime Bill among things to like about Clinton?

Clinton was good on balance and miles ahead of Bush but there were some things he did that I'm just not happy with.

[Upfront]

13. To Soon

Ask again in 2010 when Dean is in the middle of his 2nd term. Go Dean!!!!!!!!!!!

[floridaguy]

15. I support Clinton 100% and I support Dean 0% (n/t)

[shivaji]

17. Can't compare apples & oranges

Clinton was for NAFTA, Wefare reform, gun control, and against big government.

Dean is against NAFTA, pro-safety net, pro-2nd amendment, universal health care, and against US acting as world policeman.

Both are great democrats, and both are WINNERS.

[in_cog_ni_to]

27. Dean is against NAFTA, but, but, but.......

What will he say after he's elected? That is the question.

Governor Dean, 1995: "I Was A Very Strong Supporter Of NAFTA." DEAN: "I don't think it matters to the state government - governors. I happen to think that it's a good policy. I think that this is a- I was a very strong supporter of NAFTA. I believe it's going to create jobs in the United States of America, and to let our trading partner go down the tubes I think would be a big mistake."(ABC News' "This Week With David Brinkley," 1/29/95)

[SahaleArm]

55. Pander, Pander, Pander

Need to keep the unions on board until the primaries are over.

[ThirdWheelLegend]

81. Where did Dean say he was against NAFTA? and..

Universal health care??? He will leave at least 10 million uninsured. If he even sticks to his original plan...
Policemen of the world? Didn't Dean support the BL resolution?

Dean is definitely in the top 9 of our current candidates, but we need less disinformation here.

:hi:

TWL

[readmylips]

18. Dean 'cause he will be tomorrow and Clinton was yesterday....

this is a very dumb question, and it seems that you just want to crap on Dr. Dean.

HOWARD DEAN!

[janx]

19. What a weird question!

It makes about as much sense as "Do you see the Democratic party as the angry party?"

[BobbyJay]

20. Clinton, of course.

[JNelson6563]

21. I like them both

but I don't think Dean will let the neo-cons set the agenda as Clinton did. We can all learn from Clinton's mistakes, considering he is man enough to admit them, it's the least we can do.

How's that time-out go for you Marcus? :hi:

Julie

[janx]

22. Don't you love divisive threads?

It's almost as fun as listening to talk radio!

[RageAgainstTheirMachine]

25. Do your homework ...

I'm not Marcus (although he is a friend of mine) ... ask any of my other detractors and they'll tell you who I am and I'll sure they'll soon post the information in an attempt to "discredit" every one of my posts. Godspeed.

[JNelson6563]

26. *strolls in with watering can, whistling*

*sprinkles water on Marcus* *strolls off, whistling*

[janx]

28. "Godspeed"?

That sounds familiar somehow. I could have sworn I've heard that somewhere before, and not just in a history text.

[RageAgainstTheirMachine]

30. godspeed john glenn

[janx]

32. Sure.

Uh-huh.

[AntiCoup2K4]

62. Marcus, Chad, whatever.....

wonder if the Clark fans here have figured out who you really work for yet. (Hint: it ain't the General)

[ArkDem]

23. Dean..................

during Clinton's administration, the Democrats lost:
- 48 seats in the House
- 8 seats in the Senate
- 11 governorships
- 1,254 state legislative seats
- Control of 9 legislatures
In addition 439 elected Democrats had joined the Republican Party while only three Republican officeholders had gone the other way.
While Democrats had been losing state legislative seats on the state level for 25 years, the loss during the Clinton years was striking. In 1992, the Democrats controlled 17 more state legislatures than the Republicans. After November 2000, the Republicans controlled one more than the Democrats. It was the first time since 1954 that the GOP had controlled more state legislatures than the Democrats (they tied in 1968). Among other things, this gave the Republican more control over redistricting.
In fact, no Democratic president since the 19th century suffered such an electoral disintegration of his party as did Clinton.

[BobbyJay]

24. Blame the right-wing hate machine, not Clinton.

You don't think they would do the same to Dean.

[ArkDem]

39. Dean wouldn't have passed welfare reform....

that's for sure!

[blm]

79. Dean supported welfare reform and slammed Marian Wright Edelman

while pushing welfare reform.

Do you even KNOW Dean and how he governed?

How on earth could you say that he wouldn't have passed welfare reform? He has made many cracks against people on welfare.

[kaitykaity]

29. More fuel for the supposed 'rift' between Clinton and Gore.

Until Big Dog comes out and endorses someone other than
Dean, I'm taking all of this 'spat' stuff with a grain
of salt.

To answer the question, I love them both for the same
reason. They fight, and they win.

[janx]

35. Good for you--because the rift lie started with the right wing

media.

Some people just can't stop repeating it for whatever reason(s).

[oasis]

33. Bill Clinton is in the "one in a million" class. A hard act to follow.

[IndianaGreen]

42. Yep, he is so much like the Jack Stanton of "Primary Colors" (1998)

The good, the bad, and the ugly.

'Primary Colors' A Judgment On A Political Generation
By Bill Schneider/CNN

WASHINGTON (March 19) -- This year's most eagerly anticipated political movie, "Primary Colors," opens this weekend. But there was no Washington premiere, and the studio didn't screen it for political reporters, we're told, because they don't want the movie to be seen as "too political." Kiss of death.

Apparently no one wants to see a "political" movie. Well, we do. So we did the next best thing: we read the screeenplay. And we have some clips from the movie to share with you, political moviegoers.

Let's get the big question out of the way: Is Governor Jack Stanton Bill Clinton? You betcha. All that charm, that seductiveness, that political talent. Making a campaign stop at a factory, Stanton tells the workers, "I'm going to do something really outrageous. I'm gonna tell the truth."

And all that recklessness. Like Clinton, Stanton and his less-than-pleased wife must weather the accusations of an extramarital affair in order to reach the White House.

http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/1998/03/19/primary.colors/

[oasis]

73. Bill (American Enterprise Institute) Schneider, part time drama critic.

Somebody should ask that GOP shill who was responsible for America's best economy in a half century, Bill Clinton or Travolta.

Art may imitate life but there's no substitute for real U.S. currency.

[IndianaGreen]

75. I agree with Schneider, the baby boom generation was corrupted!

The guessing games are fun, but this movie does have a larger political message. Not just about the Clintons. About the corruption of a generation -- the baby boom generation. A generation that got into politics because of idealism, civil rights, Vietnam and Watergate. And that slowly, over time, has accepted the small compromises and corruptions that define the real world of politics and life.

<snip>

At the end of the movie, Susan Stanton says, "We were young. We didn't know how the world worked. Now we know." Director Mike Nichols calls that the "killer moment" in the movie.

It's also the movie's judgment of a whole political generation.

http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/1998/03/19/primary.colors/

The same generation that embraced Dr. King's "I have a dream" and Bobby Kennedy's challenge to "seek a newer world", is the same generation that in little over a decade later bought Ronald Reagan, lock, stock, and barrel.

I am sure you remember the discussions about the "marriage penalty" in the tax code. What you won't hear is that it was the boomers that brought that about when they were all in their 20s. The boomers were upset that unmarried people had to carry a larger share of the tax burden than married couples. Boomers lobbied and succeeded in adjusting the tax code to bring more fairness. Now the boomers are old and mean and greedy, just like their parents were, and they decided to shift the burden back to unmarried people, the majority of which are also in their 20s.

As Bill Schneider says in his article, Joe Klein's "Primary Colors" sees idealism and corruption as a package deal!

[oasis]

77. "boomers are old, mean and greedy". I agree. Gone are the days when

college grads, in great numbers, signed up for the Peace Corps to make the world a better place. Now they say "to hell with the rest of the world, I gotta save up for my first BMW".

[sujan]

34. Dean

[poskonig]

36. I like the new Dean.

The old Dean was a lot like Clinton, so they're about the same.

[Hoppin_Mad]

40. I'll answer in 2012 after Dean's presidency ends

[BootinUp]

43. Clinton

Howard Dean is the wrong candidate for 2004.

[Duder]

44. Big Dog said:

"I'd also like to say that whatever it is that Howard Dean knows, or whatever it is that he eats for breakfast every morning, if I could give it to every other Democratic office holder and would-be office holder, we would immediately become the majority in the Congress and we would have about 35 governors. (Applause.) I have to tell you, I think a big part of it is just producing for people, actually doing what you say you're going to do at election time."

[janx]

45. Big Dog likes Dean very much, but the wingnuts and the media

don't want anyone to know that. I remember when Big Dog said that. It was great.

[Padraig18]

47. I remember, too.

Bill likes Howard. :)

[Padraig18]

46. I like them both.

For a beer or a football game, I'd go with the Big Dog; for a poker game or someone to sit and talk quietly with, Howard.

Why do you ask? :)

[windansea]

48. curious

where do you all place Clinton on this compass??

[janx]

49. I wouldn't put him anywhere on the compass. Where did you

get that, anyway?

Whose idea was it? It doesn't seem very accurate to me. What were the criteria upon which the placements on the compass were based?

[windansea]

54. here you go

http://www.politicalcompass.org/

how does it seem inaccurate??

[texasmom]

69. Interesting site...

Thanks!

[deutsey]

50. Dean

I only supported Clinton because he got the nomination and stood against GHWBush (I swore I'd support whomever the Dems nominated, although I was a Harkin supporter in '92). I voted for him in '92 and held my nose to vote for him in '96.

I enthusiastically support Dean before the primaries and hope that he gets the nomination.

So obviously, I like Dean more.

[dsc]

53. I like them both

Clinton did a ton of good. On some issues he was better than I would have imagined and on others he was worse. Dean has done some terrific stuff as Governor of Vermont. His record as governor leaves Clinton's record as governor in the dust. But Clinton as President is hard to compare to given that Dean isn't President.

Clinton made some rookie errors, and did some wrong headed things as President. He also did some truely amazing things. I don't think a Howard Dean would have let Don't Ask Don't Tell be enforced the way it was. And that enforcement mattered. I don't think a Howard Dean would have pissed away two years thanks to a sex scandal. And that mattered. I don't think Howard Dean will leave reforming campaigns to last like Clinton did. Time will tell though.

[jonnyblitz]

56. don't like Clinton or his wife at all. I like any of the candidates

better.

[KaraokeKarlton]

57. They're very similar in how they run things

But I like Dean better. He doesn't have the problems keeping his zipper up that Clinton does. Dean is more honest and straightforward too. In fact, if I could choose either one of them to lead the country, I'd pick Dean over Clinton.

[Bill of Rights]

58. President Clinton

by a miracle mile.

[mermaid]

59. I Like Both, But I Sure Wish Clinton

had kept his pants zipped!!!!

[wyldwolf]

60. Bill Clinton

Definitely.

Of course, I like Clinton better than any of the democrats running.

[WillyT]

61. Boxers !!!

:shrug:

[JasonDeter]

67. Howard Dean

Howard Dean

[SheilaT]

68. Why do I have to choose?

n/t

[stickdog]

71. What criticisms?

Name them.

[AngryAmish]

76. This is a mini-Ditka vs. ...

full-size Ditka type argument. It does not matter who you like more. Winning is what matters.

[Toot]

78. Dean

After that whole Monica fiasco, Clinton's bold face lie about it, and then Gore suffering from the repercussions of Clinton's behavior, I can give or take Clinton. Yes, I believe many voted for Bush(I sure as HELL didn't) because he put forth this supposed great "moral" front after all of Clinton's "scandals."

I don't believe Clinton had all the faults the Repukes accused him of, but Clinton sure helped the Repukes agenda with his selfish behavior with Monica.

[mermaid]

80. I Agree

If I were Al Gore, I'd be cursing Clinton's name till the end of time! I've no doubt Gore suffered, incredibly, for Clinton's sins.

In fact, I believe Clinton's sins...combined with an ill-timed, badly advised Nader run, cost Gore the Presidency...and stuck us with the BFEE

[Shanty Oilish]

82. As politicians? Clinton by far.

Despite his character shortcomings, I much prefer BC. Let's just say the obvious reasons. In fact, even saying they're obvious is likely to irritate somebody. :(

[SayitAintSo]

83. Easy ... Clinton

Not sure the point here .... but there it is ....