Joliet cop beats up Sikh veteran, screaming "Fucking Arab!"

[madrchsod]

"On Friday March 30, 2007 at around 3:00pm, Mr. Kuldip Singh Nag, a Sikh American who was awarded the Bronze Star for his service in the U.S. Navy during the first Gulf War, was at his home in Joliet, IL when a local police officer noticed that a van parked on Mr. Nag’s private property had expired registration tags. Upon being confronted with this, Mr. Nag’s wife, Vera Kaur Nag, informed the officer that the van is parked on their driveway and was inoperable.

Mr. Nag then came outside to answer the officer’s questions regarding the van. The Joliet police officer then demanded that Mr. Nag park the van inside his garage and not on the driveway, to which Mr. Nag responded to the officer that it was not possible and that regardless, the van is parked on his private property and he has a right to park it on his driveway.


At this moment, the officer pulled out his pepper spray and attacked Mr. Nag. As Mr. Nag screamed in agony, the officer removed his baton and violently struck Mr. Nag numerous times until he fell to the ground. While the assault ensued, the officer was reported by both Mr. and Mrs. Nag as saying, “You f****** Arab! You f***** immigrant, go back to you f****** country before I kill you!”


http://www.saldef.org/content.aspx?a=1682
SALDEF - Sikh American Legal Defence & Education Fund - The new name of SMART

[bluerum]

1. Wish I could say I was shocked. The most I can muster is disgust. eom

[burf]

2. Why do I get the

feeling that the cop listens to Glen Beck? What on earth would make me think that?

[Monkeyman]

3. Joliet Cops are some of IL worse

[ChairmanAgnostic]

18. three classes of suburban cops.

1) evanstonians - trained, laid back (probably stoned) unless you are black.
2) reasonably suburban cops - professional, serious, no ego issues
3) joliet, orland park, and other sout suburban wanna-bees who could not get a real job, and who love driving around fast, with a gun. Oh, and bitch, lean over and spread them, Hey, niggah, empty your pockets. Yo, spic for brains, doncha know der's a curfew for your kind?

the last are all statements I heard from clients of mine who I represent.
and Joliet is BAAAD as monkeyman suggests.

[meldroc]

65. Sounds like LA.

Yesterday, Randi Rhodes said that the LA police chief at the time of the Rodney King beatings deliberately cleaned out the LAPD and went out of his way to go to the deep South and hire the most racist, bigoted sons-of-bitches he can find to walk the beats.

I don't think he's the only police chief to do that. Just like the Bush Administration is firing all the professionals and replacing them with fundies from Regent University, police departments with asshole chiefs get rid of good cops and replace them with Klansmen.

[martymar64]

109. There's a special place in hell for Daryl Gates

The LA Riots was a direct result of his policies. I've encountered LAPD a few times, a bunch of thugs with badges.

[bullimiami]

4. trickle down racism.

so lets see if its still a hate crime when a turban wearer is the victim.

[muntrv]

5. Mr. Nag is neither Arab nor Muslim. But then again, reich wingers don't

care, all colored people are the same.

[MikeNearMcChord]

8. There was a Sikh store owner was killed by racist yahoos

right after 9-11. I would submit racist attacks on Sikhs are higher than Muslims if not the same, to yahoos a turban is a turban. Shame!

[fuzzyball]

17. Immigrants should adapt to US style of living if they want

to live and make a living in the USA. If they value
their style of living (and that includes garb) they
should return to their country where they would fit in
better. As an immigrant myself, I take pride in having
adapted and assimilated into the US culture. If I did not
like the US culture, I would not have bothered to become
a US citizen.

However in no shape or form the Joliet cop's behavior is
acceptable. I hope he will get the punishment he deserves.

[JI7]

19. he served in the United States military

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[yodermon]

25. I really hope you're kidding. n/t

[Tom Joad]

36. Fuzzball wants to fill a vacant time slot at msnbc.

[Colobo]

26. What is American culture? Can you please tell me?

Can you expand on that?

[fuzzyball]

72. Sure...Paris Hilton, Tom Hanks, and ofcourse Sanjaya!

[1monster]

84. Gee, some of my husband's ancestors came over on one of the voyages

of the Mayflower. He has some Native American (Comanche) ancestery. The founder of his family name came to this continent and settled in Connecticut in 1639.

But he has a beard.

I guess he just doesn't qualify for American citizenship either?

The ancestors of everyone on this continent came from somewhere else, even the Native Americans (migrated from Asia thousands of years ago). If there ever was an indiginous people here in the Americas, we haven't found much evidence of it yet.

Therefore, no one has the right to deny or try to deny other's right to legally immigrate here.

And there is no law that says one has to give up every bit of cultural heritage in order to assimilate into the American community.

It is big enough to handle most cultural practices and is indeed enriched by many of the differing cultural heritages that new comers to our country bring with them.

[fuzzyball]

89. Two different issues...Rights Vis-a-vis Likeability

You have rights to whatever you wanna look like.
But to be a success in the business world, you have
to be likeable and acceptable. And you can't legislate
whom you will do buisness with.

[fujiyama]

106. People do have a right to dislike whomever they want

and I can honestly say, reading your comments, I think I dislike you.

And disliking people for they way they dress is simply being ignorant or being an ass hole.

[mark414]

30. you mean, that's not WHITE american culture...

[Tom Joad]

34. Jesus had a beard.

[RebelOne]

47. How do you know? Ever seen a photo of him? n/t

[JI7]

39. may i ask what you consider to be the American look ?

in America there are guys with short hair, long hair, bald etc. there are cleanly shaven guys, guys with some facial hair, beards etc.

[fuzzyball]

71. I have not seen many native born Americans wearing turbans n/t

[B3Nut]

118. I know of one...

Dr. Lonnie Smith!



BAD soul jazz organist. Un-freaking-believable player.

Todd in Cheesecurdistan

[draft_mario_cuomo]

45. That is part of the Sikh religion--and consistent with US culture

A fundamental part of American culture is freedom of religion. Everyone has a right to practice his or her religion so long as they do not infringe upon the rights of other individuals or society. No one can argue that particular headgear harms a soul.

[fuzzyball]

70. Ofcourse you have right to exercise your religion but then

you also have to accept some jeering and mocking
by others who think you are an oddball. 1st Amendment
gives you the right to express your opposition to
strange cultures.

[draft_mario_cuomo]

81. You don't have to accept assault and hate crimes

[fuzzyball]

90. No to assault & hate crimes..but ok to dislike anyone

When I am hiring a person, if there are two equally
qualified persons, I will choose the one I like. It
is every American's right to like and dislike whoever
he/she wishes.

[annabanana]

46. They are a Religious requirement for the Sikhs...

not a fashion statement...

[badgerpup]

68. Ever hear of a yarmulke?

There's a lot of Hutterites in my neck of the woods too.
All the women and girls wear a bandana over their heads, and all the men wear hats.
http://www.hutterites.org/faqs.htm

[fuzzyball]

74. IMHO wearing turbans and never shaving your beard is

an ancient religious ritual which has outlived its
meaning. Many hundreds of years ago the sikhs were
asked to take a vow to never shave their hair as a
commitment to fight invaders and protectr their culture.
My best friend in college was a sikh, and after emigrating
to Canada he shaved off his hair and skipped the turban.
He got sick of the sweaty smell of 5 feet long hair on his
head and the trouble he had to go through to keep it clean.
Once the hair was gone, there was no need for a turban.

[wicket]

51. Give me a break

:eyes:

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LiberalFighter]

55. Not a god-given right in OT it was a commandment

Leviticus 19:27
Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard.

Yes it is our right as an American to wear a beard and turban.

I don't hear complaints about Jews wearing their head covering.

[ieoeja]

54. Right on, fuzzyball! I really hate those fucking Amish!

:sarcasm:

[Moochy]

56. Amurrikan KKKulture?

SHAVE DEM BEARDS YOU HEATHENS!

[Javaman]

60. So you are completely okay with a person losing their sense of

identity all in the name of blending in?

That means, according to your views, giving up they way the observe their religion? Giving up their heritage?

I'm sorry you feel this way, but you really need to reexamine the real concept of what it means to be an American and not some right wing print out of how we should all act.

[fuzzyball]

76. You can choose to wear anything you want...that is your right in USA

but then why be surprised when a lot people do not
like you? Is it not everyone's right to like or dislike
any person?

[Javaman]

110. That is exactly my point. I just made the same point you made,

yet you disagree with me. You're a tool.

traps hurt when you get caught in them.

fool.

[CJCRANE]

115. Except this Sikh guy

was beaten up because the stupid cop thought he was in the Taliban!

The problem is with the cop and not the Sikh guy.

[Clark2008]

62. I suppose you wear beads, have no facial hair and dress in skins.

Afterall, this is true American culture, is it not?

[fuzzyball]

75. Now be honest...how many native Americans dress like that?

Except for a ceremonial occasion, hardly any one does.
Heck I can hardly tell who is a native American anymore.

[ConsAreLiars]

22. You believe that Sikhs should abandon their religion to live here and become citizens?

Do you think skin bleaching should also be required?

[Colobo]

27. I guess I need some serious help

Being a Spanish speaking black Puerto Rican is not going to help me! I'm not American enough! :(

[ConsAreLiars]

40. I'm not sure I'd meet the dress code.

And the beard will definitely be a disqualifying factor. Odd how restrictive some want to make the requirements for for being included in "we the people." I guess only conformist white propertied males deserve that privilege, although that does seem a bit, oh, fascist.

[realisticphish]

23. my problem with this is that

there IS no monolithic "US" culture. That's the thing about the US, there's no one culture that everyone conforms to, beyond a few fundamental aspects of it. The turban is religious headgear, just like a yarmulke, and I see no reason to stop wearing whatever the hell you feel like.

[Colobo]

28. Or like a cross, for that matter...

[realisticphish]

29. that's true

though i wouldn't call it compulsary, like a turban or yarmulke, but it's similar

[fuzzyball]

91. Again, you are confusing between 2 issues...rights Vs Likeablity

As I have said so many times, you have the right to
any religion, any dress, any hairstyle. But you have
no right to force others to like you and accept you.
If you wanna be a success in this life, you might be
better off conforming to the accepted mode of dress
& looks.

[Tom Joad]

33. fuzzy thinkin' there fuzzball. I happen to think people have a right to

their religion. That's in our constitution. I don't know about where you come from, but that's just the way its supposed to be here.

[fuzzyball]

79. You have the right to religion, bu t no right to be liked by others n/t

[Tom Joad]

85. The cop did not have a right to act out his religion of hate. He could think whatever he wants

his actions deserve accountability.

[fuzzyball]

93. I never said the Joliet cop was right in beating up the sikh person.

My point is, you will have a better chance of avoiding
trouble if you appear "normal". But you have every right to
dress in a turban and invite trouble.

[Solon]

123. Blaming the victim, I see. n/t

[Tom Joad]

35. America does not have a dress code! Got it!

[Daphne08]

43. Sorry, I disagree. n/t

[tkmorris]

44. I bet you aren't wearing moccasins

and doeskins either, now are ya?

[Name removed]

48. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[KingFlorez]

50. So they should act differently to avoid being beaten?

They shouldn't have to do anything. As long as someone is a legal citizen, they can wear whatever they want and practice their culture. It doesn't give anyone the right to attack them.

[fuzzyball]

92. If you read my post carefully, I said it is UNacceptable

behavior by the cop to beat up anyone. But at the
same time, any cop has the right to choose whom he
favors as likeable and whom he will go out of his
way to be nice to.

I was stopped the other day for speeding 10 MPH over
the speed limit. I had the choice of being belligerent
or be friendly to the cop. I chose to be friendly. I was
dressed in a clean outfit and was well groomed. The cop
let me go with a warning. I had every right to have been
dressed in a funny dress and unshaven for a few dress. But
I have no right for the cop to like me.

[KingFlorez]

95. It's not about liking anyone, it's about respecting them

Who cares if a cop likes someone or not? It's not part of the job to like people. You don't have to like a person or their beliefs, but you definitely have to treat them with respect and not attack them.

[fuzzyball]

101. The few times I escaped getting a traffic ticket was when

I acted in a manner which was perhaps friendly and
likeable to the cop. The good jobs I was fortunate
enough to get were because the boss liked the way
I dressed and behaved. So it does matter in real world
if you are likeable or not. But you have every right to
dress unconventionally, and act in any unlikeable manner
of your choice, and yet should not get beat up physically for
that.

[Name removed]

52. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Solon]

63. I doubt you are an immigrant here...

Because apparently you are at least as ignorant and xenophobic as a native-born American. Wow, something for you to be proud of. :sarcasm:

[fuzzyball]

77. The best thing ever happened to me was acquiring American

citizenship and the chance to make a living in this
the greatest country on earth...United States Of America.

[Solon]

83. OK, maybe you are an immigrant, no native born American, outside of freepers...

would call this the greatest country on Earth. Call it "new convert" syndrome, if you will, kinda like converting to a new religion those that adopt a new country go through the same phase as being "more Irish than the Irish" than those that were born or assimilated into that country/religion. To be frank, its annoying.

[fuzzyball]

94. I have lived in 4 countries and I still think USA is the best, but

I think Sweden is even better, but I can't speak
Swedish and would have a hard time getting citizenship
there and making a good living. Incidentally I was
married to a Swede and have visited Sweden. Unfortunately
she passed away prematurely due to a medical condition.

[BattyDem]

66. The "culture" of America is freedom

Freedom to wear whatever you damn well please.
Freedom to practice whatever religion you wish to practice, as well as freedom to not practice any religion.
Freedom to live your life without fear of persecution.

America is called a "melting pot" for a reason. People of different cultures and religions combined to create a brand new culture which has a little bit of everything. Native Americans did not celebrate Christmas, eat pizza, or play the guitar, yet all those things are very much a part of American culture.

Learn what American culture actually is and where it comes from before you choose to limit and define it.

[datadiva]

67. I can't believe you said that!

In all seriousness, have you missed the fundamental meaning of freedom? Isn't that what this country was founded on? Isn't that the reason we fight to keep our freedoms? The freedom of expression, religion, and the pursuit of happiness? I feel for you if you really believe that we all must conform in order to be accepted. If we can't be who we are then it's not worth the effort to defend it.

[Forkboy]

73. I can.

Not the first interesting fuzzy comment I've noticed.

[Tom Joad]

87. Not a warm fuzzy, i see!

[fuzzyball]

78. You are mis-reading my thoughts...my whole point is...

you have every right to dress any way you want so long
as it is not vulgar. However you have no right to be liked
and accepted by EVERY ONE. If I wear a turban then I should
be prepared to go along with many people dis-liking me. YOu
can't FORCE people to like you. You have to earn that by
behaving in a manner which they consider likeable.

[Solon]

82. You did not say that...

You said that they should assimilate or LEAVE the country, an absolutist position, you made no mention of likes or dislikes. In fact, you have yet to tell us WHAT American Assimilation means anyways, is this guy assimilated enough for you?



How about these guys:



Now, if you want context, the first pick is of an Orthodox Jew, protesting in Washington D.C. the second is of two guys, one an Iraqi blogger(right guy), and the other a Sikh, both at a free concert in Central Park. By the way, if you want to know what is on their shirts, the Sikh has a T-Shirt that says "Finish your beer. There are sober kids in India." and the Iraqi has "We will not be silent." in Arabic and English.

[fuzzyball]

96. Bluntly speaking, none of the above 3 persons have a good

chance of being hired in a well paying job. Now that
does not mean they are sub-human or any such thing. They
have every right to dress and groom in any way they choose.

Why come to the United States if you prefer a religion which
is RESPECTED in another part of the world? Why come here, if
your goal is not to achieve a great standard of living? Very
few countries afford a chance to achieve the level of comfort
and standard of living that one can attain in the United States.

In my personal case, I was able to attain every dream I ever
had of achieving in the USA. I chose to assimilate into the
corporate world by proper education, dress code, behavior etc.
But like I said, you have every right to be disliked and be a
failure economically.

[JI7]

97. i know many turban wearing Sikhs who are in well paying jobs

the same goes for Jews wearing Yarmulkes

[fuzzyball]

99. In my 35 years in the corporate world, I never came across

a single person dressed like those 3 people. The sikhs
I came across wore clean shirts and tie. Never came across
a jew wearing yamulke at work. And I worked for a jewish
owned business for 23 years.

[JI7]

102. many Sikhs and Jews wear clean shirts and tie

along with the turban or yarmulke .

i had many jewish teachers who wore a suit to work with a Yarmulke.

[fujiyama]

107. It's not worth arguing with fuzzy

This isn't the first bunch of comments which I've found hmmm...odd for a progressive board.

[fuzzyball]

125. Excuse me, this is a board for ALL democrats

and that includes progressives, centrists, Reagan democrats,
blue dog democrats, extreme left wing democrats....everybody.
Although I will grant you there is a predominance of progressive
democrats here. But no where in the DU code does it say this is
strictly a progressive board.

[Solon]

126. Well, not being a Progressive is excusable...

however, this is far and away different than blaming the victim for the crime perpetuated against him. This is like saying that a woman "asked for it" when raped because she wore sexy clothes. No decent human being thinks this way.

[fuzzyball]

131. I never said cop was justified, what I AM SAYING is your chances

of being treated in a decent & humane manner increase if you
look and act refined. Why take the rebellious road when better
things await you by conforming to a higher standard of dress
and behavior? But ofcourse it is your right to dress however
you want and it is your right to fail economically.

[Solon]

133. I don't get this "fail economically" shit you keep spouting...

It doesn't make that much of a difference how you dress, at least in most cases, as long as you're clean. Besides that, in the United States, if wearing a turban(or yarmulke) and having a beard is part of your religion, you CANNOT be discriminated against in employment, its against the law. Also, just to make it clear, the Sikh doesn't dress that way to be "rebellious", its just who he is and what religion he is a part of. I don't see why you insist that he is making a statement by how he dresses, he was at HOME for crying out loud!

Also, I don't get your "higher standard" of dress, what the fuck is the higher standard here? As far as you know, this guy goes to work wearing a 3 piece suit everyday, even with a turban and beard. Your attitude is not only old fashioned, but downright medieval, what the fuck do you think this is, charm school?

[Tom Joad]

86. I agree to a point, we certainly have the right to dislike certain people

I'm sure many people here have little or no respect for your philosophy.

But i will not want any one to physically attack you over it. They would have no right to do so.

[fuzzyball]

98. There is nothing I abhor more than physical violence to another human

being. That much we agree on 100%. That may be the reason
why I hate those people who brutally cut throats of innocent
human beings simply because they do not believe in Allah.
I can't even begin to imagine the fear, pain and trauma. Even
animals do not kill their prey in this manner.

[fujiyama]

103. .

[fujiyama]

104. Seriously

Go fuck yourself.

This man earned a Bronze Star! I don't even know how you can criticize immigrants for this...

[raccoon]

111. They have the right to wear what they want to.

Our clothes aren't legislated. Yet. :shrug:

[Starbucks Anarchist]

127. You still have that funny foreign accent?

You haven't blended in! :eyes: :sarcasm:

[fuzzyball]

132. When my golf handicap dropped to 12, I KNOW I blended!!!!

Atleast my several hundred fellow golfers (95% US born)
think so.

[ThomCat]

130. WTF!

:wtf:

1. Since when is forcing someone to give up his religion a requirement of becoming and American? Ever heard of freedom religion?

2. Since when do we have a dress code in the US?

3. What the hell is the US style of living? I didn't realize that we had just one. We have thousands of different styles of living in this country.

4. If you think he should have given up his religion and conformed to some imaginary standard, whate US culture did you supposedly learn and conform to?

x(

[demosincebirth]

13. The cop should have known by his name. I guess stupid cops don't know this.

[AX10]

6. OINK!

That is all.

[marmar]

7. In our current hate-friendly environment, I'm sadly not surprised....

As the economy tanks and the Iraq disaster persists, there will probably be more.

[sasquatch]

9. Please tell me this douchebag is being brought up on charges?

[HooptieWagon]

10. Sounds like a hate crime to me

I'm sure there are a number of attorneys who'd gladly represent Mr and Mrs Nag in a lawsuit against the "officer" and the City of Joliet.

[Monkeyman]

14. That is the only way he will get justice. City of Joliet is run by hard core Bush supporters

[Mz Pip]

11. This is so sad

A couple of weeks after 9/11 my son had to fly back from NYC to the SF Bay area. He didn't bother to choose a seat so the airline placed the 6'2" young American next to the guy with a turban. As it goes with 6 hour flights they took up a conversation to pass the time. The man was a Sikh and he talked about the Sikh in Arizona who was killed because people thought he was a Muslim terrorist. Turns out there is no love lost between Sikhs and Muslims. Not the same . Not even close. Guy thought it was ironic that the Sikh was killed because he was mistaken for a Muslim.

I suppose the point of this is that people in the US seem to know nothing about the various groups in the mideast. Arabs, Muslims, Sikhs, Persians. Who the fuck cares. Not that wacking anyone is ok but we are sooo damn stupid about it. What a bunch of ignorant fools so many peole in this country are.

Mz Pip
:dem:

[rockymountaindem]

37. A lot of people probably do know the difference between a Sikh and a Muslim

Just not the kind of people who would lash out at random *Americans* who they think are foreign terrorists. People like that are dumb all around and probably have trouble spelling their own names.

[fujiyama]

105. Just a slight correction

Sihks aren't from the Middle East (Sihkism originated in India).

But hey, you're willing to learn and are tolerant (after all, not knowing something is alright - the key is not stereotyping people of a certain race, etc)...I think there are so many that won't even take the time since as you said, "they're all from over there somewhere"...

[IndianaGreen]

12. Wait a minute! If the van was parked on Mr. Nag's property, the cop was out of line!

I can park my car without plates anywhere on my property, and there is nothing a cop can do about it. Park it on public property, then you have a different situation altogether.

[tblue37]

16. That's not true everywhere. I had a car that wasn't running,

and I was saving money to get it repaired. At the time, I was very poor and it was taking a while to get the money together. The city forced me to have the car towed and junked, or I would have had to pay a fine and also pay them when they had it towed against my will.

They considered it a direlect car, trash. I had not gotten my tags renewed since, as I said, I was poor and saving to get the car repaired, and it wasn't running at the time. But since the tags were not current, I had to have the car towed.

The reason it wasn't running is that a guy driving by in a truck had put his tires on wrong, and one came off and hit my car where it was parked in my parking space, which was perpindicular to the street. The insurance company totaled the car and gave me $1200 for it, but it wasn't enough for the repairs needed to make it run again.

I live in a rental, but the parking space is specifically for this rental. The city told the landlord that he would also be fined if I didn't get rid of my car. I was given so little time to get rid of it that I couldn't even arrange to sell it for parts to get a bit of money for it. It was a total loss.

Just another way the government screws poor people.

[LiberalFighter]

57. Same here in Indiana

Can't legally have vehicles on property without proper license. Your good as long as the cops don't see it. And it helps that Indiana only has license plates on the rear of vehicles.

[mopinko]

15. nothing meaner than a small town cop.

pencil dick syndrome. one more reason why i left the burbs.

[salin]

20. I hope the story gets a lot of local attention

and spurs some outraged reaction. What an awful story.

[zulchzulu]

21. This happens when your mind is on Michael Savage...

Dimes to doughnuts the cop is a Republican....

[mark414]

31. dupe

[mark414]

32. send that fucking pig to Baghdad

[The Doctor.]

38. So does asshole have a name? nt

[Recursion]

41. I still cringe when I hear racists talk about "turbans"

As if being racist isn't bad enough, they don't even know that anyone with a turban is almost certainly not Arab and even more certainly not Muslim. I guess "turban" means "funny hat that doesn't have a bill" to a lot of people.

*shrug* I hope this veteran will have a nice fat settlement coming his way soon...

[MLFerrell]

49. For real. A Qufi is not a turban...

Just try explaining that to the racists who think that anyone with brown skin and a head covering is a "raghead".

[Tom Joad]

88. hella hope he does get a settlement. and this cop loses his retirement.

I don't care about "apologies" i want accountability.
Maybe the cop will say he just listened a lot to Fox,msnbc, etc.

[LibertyorDeath]

42. To Serve & Protect

What a fucking asshole!!

Hope they are suing this racist prick..

[DuaneBidoux]

58. I may be eternally flamed for my following comment (in hell perhaps?):

I agree that if this cop did it he should be fired and prosecuted. Period.

I also agree that generally judging people by superficial appearances is parochial, narrow, and potentially xenophobic and racist.

Having said all that there is one thing for which I have a strong visceral feelings and I can't help it, as much as I've tried to be reasonable, fair and rational.

Sometimes, standing in the supermarket in line now days (or wherever) I see women (? I guess they are women ?) standing in the hijab dress, sometimes with just little slits for their eyes. I can't see if they even are women, or anything about what they look like. UNDERSTAND: I am not saying they do not have this right, I am not saying they should ever be discriminated against, or physically abused but in spite of all this I want to cry out "wake-up. You are being oppressed. You are being taken advantage of! How can you allow yourself to be imprisoned like this"? I never do say it, but I can't help feeling it. I know it is not fair, perhaps bordering on xenophobia myself. As far as I can tell this is the only deep dark part of my psyche that is this way.

What happens if they try to use a credit card and the cashier asks to see a photo id? "yea, that's the same black garb that you have in the photo with the same eye slits, guess it's all right." This has caused tremendous controversy in Europe and I think rightly so.

I consider myself a strong feminist, and there is just something about this that seems to cry out to me "oppression."

Okay, let the retribution begin.

[Bridget Burke]

59. If you get so het up about "funny looking" people, Houston is not for you.

Perhaps you'd prefer Vidor?

Have you ever seen one of these ladies have a problem with a credit card? Yes, there's been some vicious xenophobia exhibited in Europe recently.

The ladies wearing full hijab are a very small percentage of Houston Muslims & are probably new to the country. They really don't need strangers staring at them, fantasizing about their personal lives.

You can find plenty of truly abused women who expose far more skin.

I'm a feminist, too. But I'm also a woman.

[DuaneBidoux]

61. Like i said, it's a dirty little place somewhere in my psyche.

I am not like that with Arabs at all generally or any other nationality or religion, or whatever. It's just that I look at women dressed that way sometimes and it feels like they are being oppressed. I don't literally think it, it's just this visceral feeling that wants to cry out "stop being oppressed--throw off your shackles." Many women, I'm sure, don't feel that way.

[Bridget Burke]

64. When I see women in "full" hijab....

I remember family groups I've seen. Grandma (maybe) in the full veil outfit. Mom in modest Western clothing & scarf. Granddaughter in designer jeans & a t-shirt--perhaps one that says "Saudi Arabia." I see cultural adaptation over time.

If you prefer to visualize women in bondage, that's your prerogative.

[DuaneBidoux]

113. I wouldn't say I "prefer" to see them oppressed. It just feels that way when I see a woman dressed

like that.

[knight_of_the_star]

122. Ditto

I've seen a lot of Muslim girls on campus who only wear a scarf over their heads, it covers the hair and the neck but you can see the face and the rest of the clothing is western. You can see adaptations like this wherever you go depending on local culture.

[Bicoastal]

100. I can speak to this....

My aunt on my mother's side is a (converted) Ultra Orthodox Jew, and she wears a wig when her head is not covered--I've honestly never caught sight of her real hair. And of course it goes without saying that she never wears suits or skits, or anything but the standard ankle-length dress.

Then there's her daughter, my young cousin, who is definitely the most attractive female in the entire family. However, she (in the words of my grandmother) dresses like an old lady--all black ensembles with long sleeves, long skirts, and clunky black shoes year round, even though she lives in Southern California. My grandmother is heartbroken that, because of her religion, she will never be able to buy her granddaughter an attractive outfit.

And yet--and here's the kicker--I have never met two more satisified, happy, well-balanced and contended women. Especially my cousin, who is literally one of the sweetest and most level-headed people I know, dark suits and all. You might say---"well, they only THINK they're happy, but they're really oppressed." But if they feel like they're happy, and I honestly believe they do, isn't that what's important?

[DuaneBidoux]

114. I would never say "they just think they're happy." If someone is happy then they are.

I also rationally know that there are many women who adopt this lifestyle and dress because of personal reasons that have nothing to do with being coerced. The may have grown up with that style of dress and see no problems-have not rebelled against their own culture.

But then I see things like what is happening in Iraq where women are rapidly losing their privileges. I have heard terrified women in Iraq interviewed saying they can't go out in the street anymore dressed the way they grew up because they fear being assaulted. Here the dress of full hijab is used as a tool (and a symbolic confirmation)of oppression for specific political reasons and I have little doubt that at the origins of this style of dress the principle reason used was oppression.

I am sure that one could find women happy with being circumcised as well but I still consider that an oppression of women as well as a barbaric violation of a woman and her right to be sexual. Maybe that isn't a good analogy but is seems reasonable enough to juxtapose it against the example of hijab.

[treestar]

69. The way I look at this, it is a different issue

You're not saying it is "unAmerican" or a "failure to assimilate." You're saying it is oppressive to women, a completely different question.

You're not saying don't wear that because it is a failure to blend in, you effing, Muslim, etc., like a right winger would. You're saying don't wear that because a woman has no reason to hide her face as she is equal to a man. So you'd be saying in their native country, too (as some Muslim women are, even in those repressive theocracies, no doubt.)

[DuaneBidoux]

119. You have nailed what I feel and think exactly. You might see my post above for what I mean.

Someone was making the point that many women wear these clothes and are happy. That is fine. I am actually not saying they are not well adjusted or even not oppressed. I just see it as a tool that probably evolved in the first place to keep women in their place. And it is VERY rare, except possibly for our society, where the women wearing these clothes actually are not oppressed in the society in which they live.

I see it as being very similar to female circumcision. Again some women may be happy having their clitoris surgically removed but I still feel it is barbaric and oppressive. I am not a complete cultural relativist. I do believe there are some cultures that are more evolved than others and I have a tough time saying that any culture that circumcises women and covers their bodies so that nothing can be seen are equal to those cultures that don't do these things.

Understand this: I am not saying we have a right to go and invade these cultures and convert them to our way. I think these cultural elements gradually fade away over centuries--and I generally feel that freedom and democracy probably must be earned through struggle and self examination (as ours has been). I am also not saying that we should IN ANY WAY demand that people "assimilate" or "blend in" with their clothing (although obviously they need to respect traffic laws, for example). What happened to the Sikh is absolute unacceptable under any circumstance. If guilty the cop should be fired and prosecuted for, at a minimum, assault.

[mark414]

80. the guy who got beaten isn't a muslim

and neither is his wife

so...wrong thread

[DuaneBidoux]

120. My point was about dress that is different than "mainstream American" (whatever that is) and the

treatment they receive. People were talking about possible motivation for aggressive behavior toward people that are dressed differently and I noted that in general (with the exception of the case I mentioned) I never have the kinds of motivations (i.e., forced assimilation) to carry out any aggression like that of to have any negative feelings toward the differences.

I made the point that in the one case I described I have a somewhat negative feeling toward women dressed differently than the "norm" and those negative feelings are ones that say "she is a victim.

[mark414]

121. oh...gotcha - and i would agree

people can go on and on about "culture" and "religion" but when it comes down to the basic fact of the matter that's all it is - oppression and inequality, and there's no way around that.

and if that's not the case, well then i'm gonna go start a religion, and claim that God told me he wanted all women to wear dog collars and they can only go out in public when a man attaches a leash to their collar. people will try to say its sexist and oppressive, but of course they would just be hateful and intolerant of "other cultures" and of my own religion. maybe i'll even sue for defamation.

you have absolutely no reason to feel bad or guilty for that being your first thought - because your gut reaction is the truth. i'm not here saying that that sort of dress should be banned, if a woman wants to wear it then far be it from me to stop her. but that doesn't change what it is.

a lot of women still stay with and love the men that beat them, and believe things like "i deserve it"; does that mean that their abuse is not a sign of inequality and oppression?

people can practice their religion, i don't care and i'm not trying to stop that. but i'm really tired of people using it as a crutch, an excuse, for themselves (or to allow others) to oppress, put down, and degrade.

[DFW]

108. Back to the subject of the original post

If there's any justice, the offending cop will be
tried for aggravated assault and battery. If convicted,
he should serve his sentence in a "hard" institution,
where every inmate is informed in advance of his former
occupation, and the reason for his incarceration.

Should he survive his stay in prison, he should then be
given the chance to go back to Joliet and tell his former
colleagues about whether or not it was worth it.

I realize that, in this case, "if there is any justice" is
probably closer to "wishful thinking" than to anything else.

[AX10]

124. Rarely is there justice for state agents.

[BoneDaddy]

112. The cop should be arrested

the city should pay Mr. Nag restitution and this should be on every single t.v. station on the planet.

[CJCRANE]

116. This cop is totally stupid.

Most arabs and muslims do NOT wear turbans*, so he was beating up on the wrong religion.

He's probably been watching Team America : World Police.

*the ones who wear turbans are in Afghanistan and some mullahs in the ME.

[Norquist Nemesis]

117. Anyone else wondering why the cop "noticed" the tags in the first place?

I dunno...do cops normally cruise neighborhoods looking for expired tags sitting in driveways of private homes? And then, voila!!! It just so happens that there's a person living there who dresses "like a fucking Arab." :think:

Maybe I'm off base, but it sounds like the officer's record needs a little investigation.

[ThomCat]

129. Exactly. This was targetted.

x(

[gizmo1979]

128. oops.nt