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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-18-07 08:30 PM
Original message
Senators Clinton and Harkin's speeches opposing Alito nomination.
from http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/1/27/18811/4140

Accolades to Sens. Clinton and Harkin Hotlist
Fri Jan 27, 2006

One thing that Senate Democrats have sorely lacked during the Alito nomination is a narrative or overarching reason explaining the necessity to reject Judge Alito's nomination. I want to call Kossacks' attention to the floor statements of Sens. Hillary Clinton (D-N.Y.) and Tom Harkin (D-Iowa) opposing the Alito nomination. The two Senators' floor statements take a good stab at establishing that narrative. Below the fold are excerpts of Sen. Clinton's and Sen. Harkin's speeches.

First is Sen. Clinton's floor statement opposing Judge Alito:

Today I read American history is that the key to American progress has been the ever-expanding circle of freedom and opportunity. That has been the common thread through all periods of our history -- greater rights and greater responsibilities of citizenship and equality.

Each time we have made strides forward, there have been vocal voices of opposition. There have been those who have wanted to go back. At those moments of profound importance to our country, the Federal courts have been the guardians of our liberties, have stood on the side of greater freedom and opportunity.

We all know the famous cases cited as representing this forward march of progress: Brown v. Board of Education, which struck down the notion of separate but equal; Baker v. Carr, which invalidated discriminatory State voting apportionment schemes and paved the way for the concept of one man, one vote; Griswold v. Connecticut, which recognized a right to privacy in the Constitution; Roe v. Wade, which established that women have a right to choose.

We need judges who will maintain that forward progress. Despite his distinguished academic credentials, Judge Alito has not shown himself to be that kind of judge. He does not have the dedication to civil rights or women's rights or the right to privacy that I believe we need in the next Supreme Court Justice.

Time and again, when given the choice, he has voted to narrow the circle, to restrict the rights Americans hold dear. Now is not the time to go backward.

Without the progress we have made in the past 230 years, without that expansion of the circle of equality and freedom and opportunity, I certainly would not be standing here, nor would a number of my colleagues. There would be no opportunities for women in public life.

But mine is hardly the only example. Voting rights would be restricted. Equal opportunities in education and in the workplace would not exist. And none of us would have a constitutional right to privacy. Simply put, our Nation would not be what it is today.

Our greatest strength has always been our commitment, generation after generation, with some fits and starts, to enlarging the circle of rights and equality. That great American commitment has made us a beacon of freedom around the world. This nomination could well be the tipping point against constitutionally based freedoms and protections we cherish as individuals and as a nation. I fear Judge Alito will roll back decades of progress and roll over when confronted with an administration too willing to flaunt the rules and looking for a rubberstamp. The stakes could not be higher. ...

... I also view this nomination through the prism of the Justice that Judge Alito will replace. I have not always agreed with Justice Sandra Day O'Connor. But she has shown, throughout her career of distinguished service to the Court that one Justice makes a big difference. One Justice can protect our constitutional rights. Justice O'Connor is a true conservative, a mainstream jurist. She appreciated the advancements we have made as a society because she lived them. Anyone who has ever read her autobiography about this little cowgirl growing up on a ranch in Arizona, going off to school, eventually going to Stanford Law School, graduating near the top of her class and being unable to find a job simply because she was a woman does not only intellectually understand why our history is about moving forward and removing the obstacles to God-given human potential, she feels it. She understands it.

Time and time again, she showed she appreciated the advancements we have made as a society. She has fought to ensure they continue. Her vote was often the defining vote on which key civil liberties and rights rested. She exercised it with care and independent judgment.

Any fair reading, in my view, of Judge Alito's record does not demonstrate that same independence of judgment, nor does it illustrate a grasp, either intellectual or emotional, of the day-to-day struggles that tens of millions of Americans face.


Good work, Sen. Clinton. You make New Yorkers and Democrats proud with that floor statement.

And below is Sen. Harkin's floor statement opposing Judge Alito's nomination:

The issues that come before the Supreme Court are not abstract legal concepts; rather, they involve the very values that define who we are as a nation. They ask us to think about what kind of society we want to be. I believe strongly that we want to be a society which strives for justice, protects the powerless, provides meaningful protections to workers, and allows those who have suffered discrimination to seek recourse and affirm their rights in Federal court.

I believe that a nominee to the Supreme Court needs more than just excellent legal qualifications. He or she must possess a true passion for justice, an understanding that the law cannot be viewed with cool, analytical dispassion, but with the acknowledgement of its role in molding a fairer and more just society. ...

One of the things I found most troubling about Judge Alito was his statement that one of the factors that motivated him to study constitutional law was his disagreements with the Warren Court decisions in the areas of criminal procedures and voting rights. Frankly, I find this to be a stunning admission. I know there are many who often decry the decisions of the Warren Court as inappropriate liberal judicial activism.

I strongly disagree with that characterization. So many of the decisions of the Warren Court, beginning with the 1954 unanimous decision in Brown v. Board of Education--that decision that separate is not equal--are not just liberal values, they are American values--American values that each person's vote should have the same weight; that legislative districts should contain equal population; that the freedom to marry a person of another race is a fundamental civil right; the decision that broadcasters are required to provide programming that serves the public interest and to provide for a diversity of viewpoints; the decision that illegally seized evidence cannot be used in a trial; the decision that poor people are entitled to have lawyers in criminal cases; the decision that the wearing of symbols of protest is protected speech; the decision that suspects have the right to remain silent; the decision that you have a right to an attorney; the decision that you have the right to be informed of these protections and the charges against you.

These were all Warren Court decisions, and these decisions, far from evidencing an extreme view of the Constitution, are decisions that the vast majority in this country believe are fair and correct and give meaning to our Constitution's promise of individual liberty and dignity.

Yet Judge Alito chose to cite his disagreement with these very decisions as his motivation for studying law. He chose to cite his disagreements with these decisions as his reason for working to narrow or overturn the rulings in the Reagan Justice Department.

I find this very troubling. I cannot help but wonder what other laws Justice Alito might seek to narrow if he is granted lifetime tenure on the Supreme Court.

Another law that gives meaning to our Constitution's promise of liberty and dignity is the Americans with Disabilities Act. Fifteen years ago--now approaching 16--I championed the ADA, as it is now known, because I had seen discrimination against the disabled firsthand, growing up with my brother Frank who was deaf. Throughout his life, Frank experienced active discrimination at the hands of both private individuals and the government, and this served to limit the choices before him. ...

In case after case on the Third Circuit, Judge Alito seems to have been immune to the real-life struggles of the people in the cases before him. It is like: "This is the legal theory. Don't bother me with the facts. Don't bother me with what is actually happening. There is some legal theory out there that I believe in, and somehow this legal theory trumps, overcomes the real-life travails of ordinary people." As I said--immune to the real-life struggles. The fact that the police strip-searched a 10-year-old girl, the fact that a mentally disabled worker was sexually assaulted, the fact that a farm family was threatened at gunpoint by U.S. Marshals without any resistance during an eviction process--all of this failed to sway him that these ordinary Americans even deserve to be able to present their cases against the Government. It failed to persuade the judge that they should even be allowed to present their cases against the Government. This is real life, real people, and real situations. But, no, Judge Alito had some other philosophy, some other theory that overcame this.

In the past few days, I have heard a number of my colleagues on the other side of the aisle express alarm or dismay that so many Democratic Senators have expressed their opposition to this nominee. In light of the record that I just outlined, I find it alarming that more Senators on the Republican side have not expressed their opposition to this nominee. I thought it was my friends on the other side who so loudly proclaimed individual liberty, individual dignity of the person. Yet Judge Alito dismisses this under some rubric of a judicial philosophy or some theory that he has. ...

In closing, the new Supreme Court Justice will have a tremendous impact on our society. The decisions before the Court will determine whether we are true to our fundamental national values of fairness and justice and dignity for all. ... For these reasons, I strongly oppose his nomination.


Wow. Excellent job, Sen. Harkin.
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yourout Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-18-07 08:37 PM
Response to Original message
1. At least we still have dry powder.
:sarcasm:
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-18-07 10:52 PM
Response to Original message
2. Hillary did not support Kerry's Alito filibuster
The only vote that really counted!

And today, Queen Hillary declined to endorse Jim Webb's proposal to require Bush to seek Congressional approval before ordering any military action against Iran.
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-18-07 11:29 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. funny thing about "Kerry's" filibuster
Some folks considered it grandstanding in light of the fact that the Dems just didn't have the votes, ya know, seeing as how Kery was then still contemplating running in 2008 and needed to placate the lefties on account of his egregious "yes" vote on the IWR, but then again the same thing could be said of others contemplating running in 2008, ya know, thinking ahead, only the others realized a filibuster wasn't going to happen and so ended up voting against Alito's confirmation. Perhaps that was another strategy and it seems like a good decision that was based on reality AND looking forward, which gives further credence to the notion that Kerry has pretty bad political timing and decision-making which, of course, most of us saw during the 2004 election anyway.

poll from: http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/01/26/alito/index.html

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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 09:26 AM
Response to Reply #3
9. Except YOU are REIFYING a GOP talking point. Kerry said he'd filibuster anti-choice nominees in
Edited on Thu Apr-19-07 09:27 AM by blm
in 2002.

He and Kennedy also tried to get OTHER senators to lead that filibuster because Kerry was scheduled to be in Europe for his own Finance Committee duties.

If he had plotted the way YOU and the GOP media claim, he wouldn't have left for Europe at all.

If Hillary or other senators believed SINCERELY that Alito was unacceptable, they would have taken up a media campaign to engage other senators and the public to pressure senators to get the numbers they needed. But it wasn't an issue that any of them would lead on because they didn't want to get the WH and media targeting THEM so they directed their derision at Kerry - just Kerry - as usual for the coverup wing of the Democratic party.

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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #9
81. so, let me get this straight, the CNN poll is a RW talking point?
okeedokee :crazy:

He and Kennedy also tried to get OTHER senators to lead that filibuster because Kerry was scheduled to be in Europe for his own Finance Committee duties.


19 Dems voted 'yea' on cloture; so what's your point? :shrug:


If he had plotted the way YOU and the GOP media claim, he wouldn't have left for Europe at all.


Well, I haven't claimed anything; perhaps you are hearing voices claiming whatever the hell you are talking about others claiming ... :crazy:


If Hillary or other senators believed SINCERELY that Alito was unacceptable, they would have taken up a media campaign to engage other senators and the public to pressure senators to get the numbers they needed. But it wasn't an issue that any of them would lead on because they didn't want to get the WH and media targeting THEM so they directed their derision at Kerry - just Kerry - as usual for the coverup wing of the Democratic party.


Oh, that old chestnut: St. Kerry is illuminated by his own fabulousness, everybody else is shit. Yeah, we get it. :boring:

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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #3
35. Polls do make truth
especially internet polls that everyone knows how to freep.

Hillary voted for the filibuster after being against it in caucus. the fact is that this was winnable if the leaders of the party would have pushed the people voting against Alito, but also against the filibuster to filibuster him.

The key issue was NOT choice - but that fact that he was out of the mainstream on the issues of signing statements and unitary President. The fact of the matter was we were 100% certain going to get a pro-choice judge - the problem is that we got a judge who significantly changed the concept of balance of powers. That was the main issue Senator Kerry addressed. Had other Democrats (other than Feingold - who did) echoed that, it is likely that there could have been some Republican defections. At mimimum it would have made the vote easier in conservative states.
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rinsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #3
49. Ouch...this kitty has claws!
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beachmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #3
64. A couple of points here:
Edited on Thu Apr-19-07 01:28 PM by beachmom
1. Kerry did this out of conviction and a campaign promise. He PROMISED he would filibuster any Supreme Court judge who he felt would overturn Roe. Not doing so would have been a betrayal to who he is, and what he stands for.

2. The poll you refer to from CNN does not surprise me one bit. Why? Because he was absolutely FLOGGED in the media during that time. I still remember my stomach hurting because this had been a joint effort between the netroots and Kerry, and it wasn't US who got pummelled but solely him.

Edit: the CNN poll was only an internet poll. That makes it meaningless.

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beachmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #3
65. "Some folks"? You're really bringing up that NYT device? n/t
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #65
80. some folks = 61% of respondents to that poll
'kay?
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 05:15 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. Yes she did - along with Evan Bayh and Joe Biden... oooh... ahhhh
Edited on Thu Apr-19-07 05:16 AM by wyldwolf
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #5
17. Yeah - they spread out over the airwaves and fought to engage the public with their
reasons why filibustering Alito was so important.

Ooops....no.... they didn't.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. retroactively setting the bar just out of their reach.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #18
23. Nope - Senators know how important it is to get in front of microphones and engage the public
to effect public opinion and public pressure on the senate and the president.

They do it on smaller matters, so it is hard to explain why they wouldn't do it on a matter that they KNEW would be close and, beyond the closeness of the vote, the case against Alito needed a fullcourt press from all who believed he would be a devastating force on this nation's court.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #23
26. yep! And it is a common pattern among "progressives."
HILLARY SHOULD HAVE SUPPORTED THE FILIBUSTER!

Hillary did support the filibuster. It was widely reported.

WELL! UMMM... HMMM... HILLARY SHOULD HAVE BEEN ON TV MORE TALKING ABOUT IT!

Well, it was reported on CNN several times.

WELL! SHE SHOULD HAVE ... SHOULD HAVE ... UMMM... USED THE POWER OF THE FORCE TO MAKE SURE EVERYONE SAW IT!

Uh... yeah, right.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #26
38. She did vote for it
having originally been quoted as being against a filibuster - she joined after about 3 days of being calling her office. This does show she listened to what people wanted. She did NOT make a speech in favor of the filibuster.

It was her right to pick her opinion. Her votes were right on this - but she did not opt to lead on it.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 11:42 AM
Response to Reply #38
40. is this another call for the bar to be set out of her reach?
She did NOT make a speech in favor of the filibuster.

So? Did all in favor make a speech?

she did not opt to lead on it.

Again.. so?

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beachmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #40
66. You're going to have to accept the fact that Hillary is not a courageous leader
I hear she has done excellent things on mental illness in the Senate from a friend of mine in NY state. That's great, but we don't need a technocrat, afraid of standing up for principle on CONTROVERSIAL MATTERS, in the White House. We need a leader, who will fight. She's not that leader.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #66
74. You're going to have to accept the fact that no one will meet your expectations
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #40
75. This was in response to misinformation on both sides
There were some saying she didn't vote for cloture - she did.

This was a simple list of what she did and what she didn't do.

There is no inference of what she should have done - no bar - just a simple list.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. She did, but wouldn't get involved in leading it in any form on tv/newsmedia.
No senators would step up and lead a filibuster and help convince others to do the same through media pressure. Kerry and Kennedy both begged other senators to do it because Kennedy had just taken a 2 week media beating from the GOPs over his judiciary objections on Alito, and Kerry was scheduled to be in Europe for his Finance committee duties.

When Kerry was in Europe and no senator would join with Kennedy to lead a filibuster, THEN and only then did Kerry step up, because there was a still a chance if the public could be engaged to pressure Dem senators to filibuster.

Liars from senate staffs instead directed all their scorn at Kerry for the filibuster instead of fighting in the media to get the public engaged on how BAD Alito would be for this country.
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 10:53 PM
Response to Reply #2
79. that's simply flat-out not true --- HRC voted "no" on cloture
Your hate is blinding you.
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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 05:04 AM
Response to Original message
4. When she's good she's very good
but when she's bad.....(ugh)

And of course I'm a long time Harkin fan. I sure wish more Dems had stood against those thugs.

Julie-growing weary of wishing
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 09:20 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. Doing it PUBLICLY and fighting on TV to explain WHY Alito would be bad is part
of the duty. She said this on the senate floor but would not - just like many senators - would not engage the public on why Alito should not be confirmed. And public pressure is what would have gained support for a successful filibuster.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 09:23 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. From The BLM Book Of Proper Senate Etiquette
Rule #27: It isn't enough to support ideas, actions, and legislation. You must also go on TV and make a big show of it. (Especially if your last name is Clinton.)
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. How else does a public servant take their message of CONVICTIONS to the public
on a matter as serious as opposing a nominee as bad as Alito?

Cameras were found to join in Bush and McCain's lie against Kerry.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #10
12. Oh, that old thing: If a Senator does something laudable and TV doesn't cover it...
Edited on Thu Apr-19-07 09:34 AM by wyldwolf
...did that Senator ever really do it?
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. Interesting since Hill's strength as a candidate is s'posed to be BECAUSE she could always
Edited on Thu Apr-19-07 10:06 AM by blm
command a TV camera at will while lesser known Democratic lawmakers can NOT count on those cameras and microphones.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. I've never seen that stated as one of her strengths. Links?
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. People say...... Hey, if you want others to believe that Hill tried to get on TV to push filibuster
Edited on Thu Apr-19-07 10:15 AM by blm
but not one news program would book her you are certainly welcome to sell that position. I doubt many would buy it here at DU.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. I'm stating I have never seen it documented that she snaps her fingers and TV crews come running
That is what YOU are claiming.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #16
20. My claim is that Hillary CAN get on any news program she wishes to be booked on
when she needs to take a stand on any issue up for debate.

Can you name one time when she could NOT?

I can name a time when Kerry campaign was refused coverage by every news network - His speech to the Firefighters Convention where he blasted the swifts and challenged Bush to stop hiding behind them and come out and debate their service during that time.

Gee - why would the media stay away from a speech like that, I wonder?

If Hillary was treated the same way, I have yet to hear about it.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. Show me links that support such power
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #22
25. That's a BS request. YOU implied she couldn't get heard on Alito - I challenged you
based on the fact that Hillary Clinton has NO PROBLEM getting a news camera or microphone when she needs one - and YOU now want to PRETEND that she cannot - play away if you really think people will buy into your game.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #25
28. LOL! Show us all where I implied she couldn't get heard on Alito. I challenge you.
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mtnsnake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #15
19. What kind of link is that, blm?
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #19
21. You two are welcome to pretend that Hill can't get on camera on important issues like Alito.
Edited on Thu Apr-19-07 10:25 AM by blm
Your game of pretend isn't clever, and, imo, isn't very convincing for most DUers.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #21
24. and you are welcome continue setting the bar of laudable actions just out of Clinton's reach
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #24
27. YOU imply in post 12 that Clinton probably spoke out but couldn't get TV coverage
and I would bet most of DU would laugh at that implication.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #27
29. there was no implication of that there. You had previously said she had not been on TV
My implication was that you think appearing on TV is more important than the vote itself.
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #29
30. In retrospect-
Apparently, Cloture was the way to go. As Kerry's Filibuster was DOA before it even got started because as Senator Durbin quipped:..
"One of the first responsibilities of someone in Congress is to learn how to count," The votes never materialized because they were never there to begin with.

You can read the story here how Kerry's grandstanding was a fool's errand.

poll from: http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/01/26/alito/index.html




and the consensus of this poll recognizing Kerry's Grandstanding a useless filibuster for gaining political points, gearing up for a possible run in 08'. When in fact, his self-serving, irresponsible, actions helped Alito get confirmed.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #30
42. How did it help Alito get confirmed?
The onlly way to stop the confirmation was to block the cloture vote (aka filibuster). Are you unaware that filibuster means to block cloture? Or, are you implying that had they just voted cloture, that they magically would have found 51 votes! (Finding 41 seems far easier)

It is you who are making irresponsible statements. Kerry KNEW what he would face going against this. If he didn't care, he would have stayed in Davos with Teresa, who was also a delegate, enjoying the respect of the other delegates, then going on Sunday to give a speech in a prestigious series in Nothern Ireland.

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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #42
47. Heres how Cloture works..
Cloture is a tactic that allows senators to limit debate on a measure and force a vote. To begin, senators must present a petition signed by at least 16 members and then wait two days to hold a vote. If supporters get the 60 votes needed to invoke cloture, debate is limited to an additional 30 hours. At which time things can change dramatically. But we'll never know, will we? Because against all logic, Kerry chose to filibuster when it never stood a chance of accomplishing anything but a LOSS.
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karynnj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #47
73. There was a cloture vote, it succeed, Alito got confirmed
The only way the minority, if they have more than 41 votes but less than 51 (if the President is on the other side), can stop something is by DEFEATING the cloture vote - otherwise known as filibustering.

If 41 or more Senators had voted against cloture, debate would NOT be ended - and eventually there would be a second call for cloture. If it was clear that there were 41 people prepared to continually vote against cloture - the measure is stopped. It can not come to a vote.

Notice, the Republicans have used this all year to stop bills they don't want passed.

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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #30
50. Except Kerry promised to filibuster anti-choice nominees YEARS BEFORE Alito.
Edited on Thu Apr-19-07 12:18 PM by blm
And the votes would have been there if the public pressure was put on OTHER DEMOCRATS to stand united on the filibuster.

Just as the Republicans do on matters of principle for their issues.

BTW - Kerry and Kennedy asked other senators to lead it because Kerry was scheduled for Finance Committee duties in Europe.

He only stepped up because Kennedy had no one else to help him on it after two weeks of Kennedy taking all the media heat.
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #50
55. I think you missed you're calling..
you can predict alternative future outcomes without any facts to substantiate your predictions?

you can accuse innocent people of being guilty of crimes committed by others "by association" on your say so?

I provided proof that what Kerry did by filibustering was nothing more than Grandstanding, that is not my opinion alone, but that of

120,668 people voting. His conviction to STOPPING Alito's confirmation had nothing to do with it! Just Grandstanding!

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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #55
57. CNN poll was proof that Kerry grandstanded or proof that GOP media wanted it to APPEAR
as grandstanding.

Because CNN didn't bother to report that Kerry and Kennedy begged OTHER senators to lead the filibuster as they felt that they could not given Kerry's scheduled meeting in Europe and Kennedy's beating by the media for 2 weeks earlier on the Alito hearings.

Kerry went to Europe believing that SOME OTHER SENATOR would step up and join Kennedy.

Enjoty REIFYING Republican talking points. You really cling to them well.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #57
58. so you're suggesting CNN rigged the poll?
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beachmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #58
68. #1 -- it's an unscientific INTERNET poll. #2 -- the media was MERCILESS
against Kerry during that time. It doesn't matter what the truth is to the media. The media had their talking points from both the GOP and Democrats who disapproved of his effort, and they went after him. RELENTLESSLY. And the entire blogosphere was with Kerry. Except you guys, I guess.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #57
61. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #61
69. I never alerted on your posts. I like them. They speak loudly about how you think.
.
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beachmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #61
70. A lame internet poll is your proof of the "Truth"?
So I suppose that also means that there were WMD in Iraq AND a connection between 9/11 and Saddam Hussein. After all, I am sure there are moments in time I can show you INTERNET polls that will give you numbers as high as 70% supporting the above two lies.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #70
71. LOLOLOLOLOL
But, please show some pity for their distortions, will ya? They may REALLY believe them and we should show compassion, not scorn.
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beachmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #30
67. What is it with this identical screen shot of a lame CNN poll by DU posters?
Is this a coordinated attack on Kerry that's being pulled here? It's really hilarious. The guy is GONE from the presidential campaign -- he's NOT running. And yet, the Hillary people still are chasing his ghost, trying to destroy the man who makes their gal look weak. Really pathetic. Hillary was FORCED into voting against cloture by Kerry, and she resented the hell out of it at the time. Funny thing is, that vote now HELPS her. Yet you folks can't let it die.
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 11:21 PM
Response to Reply #67
83. So why did IG bring up his name in a Clinton/Harkin thread?
The irony of you bitching and moaning about the discussion at hand is breathtaking considering is was hijacked by one of your own from Clinton/Harkin to Kerry.

and this ...

Hillary was FORCED into voting against cloture by Kerry, and she resented the hell out of it at the time. Funny thing is, that vote now HELPS her. Yet you folks can't let it die.


There is so much wrong with this excerpt. I have a few questions:

#1 Were you or was Kerry holding the gun to her head on the cloture vote?

#2 Where can one purchase a resentment-detector?

#3 Let it die? Holy shit, you folks have been running around DU feverishly trying to impugn everyone but Kerry for Alito's confirmation when the truth is every single Senator that is running for president in 2008 voted 'no' on cloture.
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AtomicKitten Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 11:13 PM
Response to Reply #21
82. and Kerry's game wasn't very clever
even Durbin pointed out it was a simple matter of counting
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 11:23 AM
Response to Reply #12
31. Do you have a LINK of Hillary speaking out in a laudable way that no TV would cover?
.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #31
32. No, because I have not said or implied that happened.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 11:28 AM
Response to Reply #32
33. Then why did you post that senators speak out but cameras don't cover it in
a reply to what Hillary did or did not do on Alito?
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #33
34. I did not post that
Edited on Thu Apr-19-07 11:36 AM by wyldwolf
In reponse to your silly argument that Clinton should have gone on TV to express her support, as if merely supporting for the filibuster wasn't enough, I replied with a play on an old riddle: If a Senator does something laudable and TV doesn't cover it......did that Senator ever really do it?

My implication is that you think appearing on TV is more important than the support of the filibuster itself.

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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #34
36.  Post 12, wyldwolf: If a Senator does something laudable and TV doesn't cover it...
Or is there another wyldwolf posting in this thread?

>>>>

If a Senator does something laudable and TV doesn't cover it...

Edited on Thu Apr-19-07 10:34 AM by wyldwolf
...did that Senator ever really do it?

>>>>
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #36
37. post 29 and 34, blm. It was a response to your litmus test
In response to your silly argument that Clinton should have gone on TV to express her support, as if merely supporting for the filibuster wasn't enough, I replied with a play on an old riddle: If a Senator does something laudable and TV doesn't cover it......did that Senator ever really do it?

My implication is that you think appearing on TV is more important than the support of the filibuster itself.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #37
39. Supporting a filibuster ISN'T enough when it comes to such an IMPORTANT issue.
Edited on Thu Apr-19-07 11:41 AM by blm
And no senator would say it is enough if they truly believed a filibuster like this one was important.

Face it - she and most other Dems were NOT INTERESTED in taking this battle on in any PUBLIC way.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 11:44 AM
Response to Reply #39
41. yes it is.
You should just go ahead and publically admit something that would save you and many other here who argue with you a lot of time.

Admit that nothing Hillary does is good enough for you. Go ahead. Then everyone will know where you stand.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #41
43. I would LOVE it if Hillary showed conviction on Alito filibuster - but she didn't.
Edited on Thu Apr-19-07 11:52 AM by blm
Admit that YOU would be thrilled if you could put up several links of Hillary speaking PUBLICALLY on news networks about the imperative nature of blocking Alito confirmation.

I know I would love it if Hillary was a real honest Democrat from the anti-corruption, open government wing of the Democratic party...but....she isn't....is she?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dk1k0nUWEQg
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #43
44. c'mon blm. Show some courage. Admit that nothing Hillary does will ever be good enough for you.
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #44
45. Hillary opening the books on BushInc will be good enough for me.
I just know she won't do it, because nothing in her record or Bill's indicates that she would do so.

And THAT is why you fight me so much. Because that basic truth is one that you can't stand to see posted.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #45
46. well, talk to me when she has the authority to do so.
In the meantime, stop holding her to a higher standard than others - especially since you hate her so much.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #46
48. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #48
51. Changing the topic again?
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blm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #51
52. You changed it to be about hate - and I took the opportunity to assert just cause.
Try it some time. Get back to concern for HONEST and OPEN Government as you once wanted to represent yourself.
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 12:24 PM
Response to Reply #52
53. your hate for Senator Clinton is well known. Just admit what I asked you to admit
Then it can be used as a standard disclaimer in your posts.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #54
56. Hey, are you about to launch into another wheez-filled diatribe on Bill Clinton?
Edited on Thu Apr-19-07 12:35 PM by wyldwolf
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #56
59. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #59
60. solid, HONEST sources = unnamed anonymous sources in blm's world
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #60
62. When they are losing, the next move is the ALERT to get the Thread Locked..
calling it a flame fest..

I bet you can't guess who the inflamer always is?

:toast:
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wyldwolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #62
63. ah, well. Lots of that today. LOTS of twisted, tortured logic in several threads.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 03:31 PM
Response to Reply #60
76. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #7
72. Good point.
Undeniably.
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mtnsnake Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 09:33 AM
Response to Original message
11. K&R!
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Tellurian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 06:58 PM
Response to Reply #11
77. K&R
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AZBlue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 10:49 PM
Response to Original message
78. K&R
Edited on Thu Apr-19-07 10:50 PM by AZBlue
edited:
damn, too late to R...but I did K!
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Alamom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-19-07 11:42 PM
Response to Original message
84. kick
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