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The ban on some abortions is about far more than that...it is about the role of women in America.

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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-22-07 11:30 PM
Original message
The ban on some abortions is about far more than that...it is about the role of women in America.
That decision by the Supreme Court on a bill from 2003 passed with the help of both parties relegates women to a lesser role in our society. It says they are not to be considered able to make their own decisions, that they are not worthy to do so. It will not only be harmful to the health of many women, it says to all of us that we are taking a step backwards in the 21st century as far as individual rights are concerned.

I posted about it the other day, and many responses showed me that we never really left the last century. Too many feel that it is perfectly all right to put limits on a woman's ability to make decisions. It will criminalize doctors. That is another shocking part. They could serve up to two years in jail. This is a terrible thing.

These are hard-hitting articles.

Father Knows Best.
Dr. Kennedy's magic prescription for indecisive women.

Kennedy invokes The Woman Who Changed Her Mind not once, but twice today. His opinion is a love song to all women who regret their abortions after the fact, and it is in the service of these women that he justifies upholding the ban. Today's holding is a strange reworking of Taming of the Shrew, with Kennedy playing an all-knowing Baptista to a nation of fickle Biancas.

As a matter of law, the majority opinion today should have focused exclusively on what has changed since the high court's 2000 decision in Stenberg v. Carhart. Stenberg struck down a Nebraska ban that was almost identical to the federal ban upheld today. That's why every court to review the ban found the federal law, passed in 2003, unconstitutional. What really changed in the intervening years was the composition of the court: Sandra Day O'Connor, who voted to strike down the ban in 2000, is gone. Samuel Alito, who votes today to uphold it, is here.


And from TAP: The federal "partial-birth" abortion ban has grave implications for all pregnant women, not only those seeking to end pregnancies.

Miscarriage of Justice

One very chilling part from the Prospect article:

"But at least one federal court has said that sending police to a woman's
home, taking her into custody while in active labor and near delivery,
strapping her legs together and her body down to transport her against her
will to a hospital, and then forcing her, without access to counsel or court
review to undergo major surgery constituted no violation of her civil rights
at all.
The rationale? If the state can limit women's access to abortions
after viability, it can subject her to the lesser state intrusion of
insisting on one method of delivery over another.

There are other implications to upholding laws that award the fetus separate
and greater rights than those of the woman. Comments by Kennedy in a
concurring opinion in another Supreme Court case, Ferguson, suggest that he
would have no objections to advancing fetal interests by permitting states
to "impose punishment" on a woman who even "risks" causing harm to the
fetus. In that case, the purported risks were those created by low-income
pregnant women who used illegal drugs and who had no access to appropriate
drug treatment despite seeking health care."


Are you feeling creeped out yet? I am .

From Salon:

Danger: Pregnant women thinking

"But as Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg points out in dissent, Kennedy doesn't
propose giving women more information about partial-birth abortion
procedures. He says it's up to the Congress and the courts to substitute
their judgment and ban the procedures altogether."

The Times notes, "This way of thinking, that women are flighty creatures who must be protected by men, reflects notions of a woman's place in the family and under the Constitution that have long been discredited," a point that Justice Ginsburg made in her dissent but that bears repeating. The majority opinion -- or, "atrocious result," as the Times aptly calls it -- "severely eroded the constitutional respect and protection accorded to women and the personal decisions they make about pregnancy and childbirth."


Yes, it has eroded the constitution by not treating women as equals, able to make up their own minds with the advice of their doctor. But one of the parts that will chill many in the medical community as well as a woman and her family.....the religious view of the fetal rights over the rights of women. We can pretend it is not a religious based action, but that part is and is dangerous.

And the more you look at what Wednesday's ruling says about our highest court's view of women's rights and autonomy, the worse it gets. Over at the American Prospect, National Alliance for Pregnant Women prez Lynn Paltrow makes the obvious connection: If fetal rights are more important than maternal rights when it comes to abortion, you can probably argue that fetus trumps mom in other areas, too, like forcing C-sections on reluctant mothers in the interest of fetal health, or penalizing pregnant women for not practicing optimal prenatal care.

Sounds extreme, doesn't it? Well, Paltrow writes, "this argument is already being used to justify court-ordered Cesarean sections in cases where physicians believe that a c-section will prove more beneficial to the fetus (this despite the fact that c-sections constitute major surgery and pose increased health risks to the pregnant woman and in some cases the fetus as well)." As of now, she says, the practice is rare.


I agree with that Vermont doctor who said:

“This bill will chill the practice of medicine and endanger the lives of countless women. Despite what politicians tell you, there is not an epidemic of third trimester abortions in this country. This kind of legislation serves the sole purpose of chipping away women's constitutionally protected reproductive rights and overturning Roe v. Wade.


A doctor says congress should not practice medicine

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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-22-07 11:50 PM
Response to Original message
1. they've put the rights of a fetus over the rights of women
it is as simple as that
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-23-07 12:21 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. Yep. I love how succinct you put that. n/t
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-23-07 12:25 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. Yep, summed up a lot of it in just a few words.
:D

That is a concept that could do great harm. A mother could feel great fear for her other children and family who need her so much.

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shimmergal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-23-07 12:59 AM
Response to Reply #1
7. They didn't actually put the rights of a
viable fetus first, either.

I heard Bill Clinton's explanation of why he vetoed the earlier "partial-birth abortion" bills; he told about it the other night on the Larry King show.

The procedure is far the safest for the mother in cases where the fetus is hydrocephalic. These fetuses are going to die anyway, either before or during birth or shortly afterwards. So for the sake of an abstract principle and so-called pro-life achievement, women are going to have their lives and health endangered.

I hope some progressive women's health group is concerned enough about this to set up a hospital ship just outside U.S. waters, where such operations can be performed legally when needed. And in the future, who knows, we may need it even more.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-23-07 01:26 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. My feeling is that others should not get to analyze...
just leave it to the doctor and the mother. Congress and the courts should not get to say which procedures...that should be left to the doctor and the mother.

I mean giving a doctor two years in prison is a scary thing, and how long before they try to limit other areas of medicine.
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Morgana LaFey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-23-07 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #7
23. hospital ship -- great idea, one probable problem
they'll pass laws making it illegal to leave the U.S. to get an abortion of that type, just as they've passed laws to make it illegal for anyone to take a minor across state lines for purposes of an abortion in those states where there are parental notification laws.

And don't forget -- when these types of procedures are mandated, we have a CRISIS on our hands, with no time for niceties like catching the next flight to the west coast (or even getting to the airport in many cases!).
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-23-07 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #7
30. The problem is, as usual, that poor women
will be more adversely effected by this horrible new precedent than the affluent.

The greatest crime in this "land of the free" is still the crime of being poor.

God bugger the U.S. of A.
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melody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-23-07 01:17 AM
Response to Reply #1
9. Precisely - because the fetus may be a white male n/t
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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-23-07 12:19 AM
Response to Original message
2. I guess women became too uppity to the American Taliban
Edited on Mon Apr-23-07 12:20 AM by Erika
Let's keep them knocked up and barefoot, as the old motto was to keep women under the man's thumb and heel.

Hey, we are not going there again.
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bdamomma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-23-07 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #2
19. hell no we are not, and we are force not to be messed with either.
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bdamomma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-23-07 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #2
20. hell no we are not, and we are a force not to be messed with either.
Edited on Mon Apr-23-07 01:44 PM by alyce douglas
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-23-07 12:25 AM
Response to Original message
4. Fetal Dismemberment
I understand, and agree with, your point, but that's the argument we've been using for the last 15 years and we keep losing. Maybe it's time to talk science and health. Late term abortions are for health purposes and anybody who tells you different is a liar. Period.

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Erika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-23-07 12:51 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. Two PBA cases I personally know about
Edited on Mon Apr-23-07 12:52 AM by Erika
One was a gal who learned her baby had only one heart chamber and would not survive the birthing process. Why should she be expected to labor to produce a stressed and dead baby?

The other one was a bina spifida case where, if the baby, survived birth, it would die shortly after. It's short life, if it survived birth, would be spent in pain and medication.

I trust the mother to make the right call. It distrsses me that women are now being overlooked as if they didn't exist. This laughable USSC pretends the mother has no import.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-23-07 02:02 AM
Response to Reply #6
11. I agree
But somehow we let them get away with mischaracterizing this as delivering health nine month babies and then sucking their brains out. I just cannot understand how any strategist let that happen. The very statement, a woman and her doctor, includes the doctor because these are medical situations. It's just infuriating.

My town has one Catholic hospital, a non-Catholic hospital is over 60 miles away. There haven't been any reports of pregnancies gone bad here, I just don't want the first one to be my daughter. With the local hospital, she wouldn't even have the choice of an abortion under the situations you described. She would have to be at risk of dying before they'd consider an abortion. It's very scary.
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DixieBlue Donating Member (504 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-23-07 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #11
18. That's it exactly ...
"But somehow we let them get away with mischaracterizing this as delivering health nine month babies and then sucking their brains out. I just cannot understand how any strategist let that happen."

I don't, either. They totally let the rightwing idiots run the debate on this. And what do we have now? A Supreme Court decision that not only bans a procedure that is often medically necessary ... but a Supreme Court decision that says Congress has a MORAL right to legislate in the best interest of a fetus.

This is scary as hell. As a woman, and the mother of a daughter, I'm terrified.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-23-07 01:11 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. Yes, I agree they are for health purposes. Most definitely.
I am not sure we are willing to have the conversation which will be unpleasant. I mean, they kill abortion doctors. We have scruples.

This is the best way to say it I have heard...so I guess I will repost it now and then.

“As a physician, I am outraged that the House of Representatives has decided it is qualified to practice medicine. There is no such thing as 'partial birth abortion' in medical literature. But there are times when a doctor is called upon to perform a late term abortion to save a woman's life or protect her from serious injury. Today the House took a step toward making it a crime for a doctor to perform such medically necessary procedures.

“This bill will chill the practice of medicine and endanger the lives of countless women. Despite what politicians tell you, there is not an epidemic of third trimester abortions in this country. This kind of legislation serves the sole purpose of chipping away women's constitutionally protected reproductive rights and overturning Roe v. Wade.


http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1289
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-23-07 02:04 AM
Response to Reply #8
12. Precisely
That's all NARAL and the rest of the groups need to do. Send that statement to every house in America with the medical reasons these abortions are required.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-23-07 10:53 AM
Response to Original message
13. Ellen Goodman speaks out on this...."playing God and doctor"
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2007/04/20/trumping_womens_rights/

MAY I remind you what else was happening on the very day in 2003 when Congress passed the partial-birth abortion ban? In Florida, the Legislature passed a law that gave politicians the power to override Terri Schiavo's wishes and have her feeding tube reinserted.

Up and down the East Coast, under two Bush administrations -- George and Jeb -- politicians were playing doctor and God and patient, trumping both medical opinion and individual rights.

May I also remind you of the day President Bush signed the partial-birth abortion ban into law? The photo op had him surrounded by an all-male chorus line of legislators. These men were proudly governing something they never had: a womb.

What a long and wounding debate this has been. The moment this procedure was dubbed "partial-birth abortion," pro lifers won the PR war.


Yes, they did win the PR war. Time for our side to become informed and speak out.
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wicket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-23-07 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. I love Ellen Goodman's editorials
And this one is one of her best. Bravo, and thanks for posting it.
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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-23-07 09:49 PM
Response to Reply #13
31. In case you missed it
Edited on Mon Apr-23-07 09:50 PM by ProudDad


A bunch of fucked up old white men deciding how women should behave...


:grr: :grr: :grr: :grr: :grr:


http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/11/20031105-1.html
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-24-07 12:17 AM
Response to Reply #31
34. I used to have that picture on my hard drive....thanks for finding it.
Now it's those 7 plus the 5 old men at the Supreme Court who will be looking over the shoulders of doctors with threats of jail time.
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ismnotwasm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-23-07 12:52 PM
Response to Original message
14. Thank you
Excellent summary



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The Count Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-23-07 01:06 PM
Response to Original message
15. FETAL RIGHTS - IT sounds as obscene as "they hate us for our freedoms"!
And here are the 10 reasons for abortion:
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jean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-23-07 01:08 PM
Response to Original message
16. someone more eloquent that I should point out the erosion of women's equality
unleashes a societal mindset similar to countries like Afghanistan (and many others where women are not equal citizens).
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Morgana LaFey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-23-07 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #16
25. Well, that was pretty eloquent
I'll add this: the article(s) madfloridian posted pointed to the fact that the reasoning -- which becomes part of the law -- opens the door for more repression of women and our interests.

Beyond that, the various states will now be emboldened to go even further.

Finally, we have plenty of documentation (statistical evidence) that where there are, for example, anti-gay initiatives being discussed, the incidence of physical assaults on gays and lesbians increaes. It becomes more "okay" to go after them physically! Barbaric, but true.

This legislation demeans women, degrades our standing in this society, says that we're not smart enough and/or moral enough to make sound decisions and that tiny precious babies' lives are simply worth more than our dirty old ugly, flighty selves. You BET this is going to fuel the backlash we've been suffering through since the 1980s. You bet it will. I shudder to think.

And I'll go farther and step on my soapbox and issue some personal pleas. There are people here -- a lot of them men, but sadly not all -- who see NOTHING wrong with demeaning any woman they don't like, esp. rightwing women, by calling them names that are gender slurs and which therefore demean not just the woman they don't like, but ALL women. These people see absolutely no nexus between those practices and the type of environment when SOME quarters SO disrespect women as part of the human race that they can tell us we are worth less than unviable fetuses anyway.

The ugly names, so easy to toss out, contributes to the whole picture. You call ANY woman a bitch or whore (I've even had people argue with me that "whore" isn't gender-specific!), or old bitty, or ANY term that denigrates ANY woman on the basis of her gender is part of the environment in which this can happen.

We MUST stand up to ALL demeaning, belittling, denigrating treatment of and all oppression against women, every last bit of it, every time. And also against gays and minorities, but the topic here is women. ANY amount of disrespect for women AS WOMEN contributes to a climate that we have now -- where a woman can be disrespected right out of her rights over her own body, right out of her very life, in fact.

DON'T let DUers or anyoe else get away with using gender slurs against rightwing or ANY women. And DU men who give a damn about abortion (and a good many of them do if only out of "enlightened self interest") need to step up to the plate and start challenging the kind of language that allows women to be turned back into some version of chattel, subordinate to the fetus she's carrying, a mere brood mare.
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Morgana LaFey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-23-07 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #16
26. sorry, dupe
Edited on Mon Apr-23-07 06:17 PM by Morgana LaFey
it wouldn't post, and wouldn't post, and then it did. Twice.
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plcdude Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-23-07 02:18 PM
Response to Original message
21. I would add another wrinkle
to this ruling. This is also an affront to medical science and its practitioners. We all know that d and x is not frequently used nor performed willy-nilly. By outlawing a sound, serious, and important medical procedure says that judges trump doctors in determining medical treatment and even their commitment to the hippocratic oath. There will come a time that this procedure will be performed again and if tested again in the courts will be in context of saving the life of a woman. It will be interesting.
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-23-07 02:53 PM
Response to Original message
22. And some seem not to know there is no exception for health of the woman.
Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act of 2003: Vote to pass a bill banning a medical procedure, which is commonly known as "partial-birth" abortion. The procedure would be allowed only in cases in which a women's life is in danger, not for cases where a women's health is in danger. Those who performed this procedure, would face fines and up to two years in prison, the women to whom this procedure is performed on are not held criminally liable.
Reference: Bill sponsored by Santorum, R-PA; Bill S.3 ; vote number 2003-530 on Oct 2, 2003

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/madfloridian/1291

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ProudDad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-23-07 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #22
32. The camel's nose under the tent
"not for cases where a women's health is in danger."

And who makes that call, a fucking DA??? :mad: :wtf:
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ThomCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-23-07 05:47 PM
Response to Original message
24. One more step to making women servants during pregnancy.
Soon, I can see it becoming standard that you sacrifice your civil rights when you get pregnant, because the fetus has them instead.

And then, how much longer will it be before fertile women lose civil rights because they MIGHT become pregnant?

Damn, what a horribly slippery slope we're on. x(
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Morgana LaFey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-23-07 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. There was already an advisory or some such from the CDC
that ALL women of child-bearing age should be taking -- well, here, take a look yourself:

Forever Pregnant
Guidelines: Treat Nearly All Women as Pre-Pregnant

By January W. Payne
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, May 16, 2006; Page HE01

New federal guidelines ask all females capable of conceiving a baby to treat themselves -- and to be treated by the health care system -- as pre-pregnant, regardless of whether they plan to get pregnant anytime soon.

Among other things, this means all women between first menstrual period and menopause should take folic acid supplements, refrain from smoking, maintain a healthy weight and keep chronic conditions such as asthma and diabetes under control.

more

New Federal Guidelines for all women until menopause..American Taliban
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1310356#1310518
Link: http://mysternyc.blogspot.com/2006/05/outrage-alert-barefoot-and.html
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madfloridian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-23-07 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. Ah, yes, the "pre-pregnancy" memo.
I had forgotten that. Handmaidens? :wow:
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ThomCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-23-07 06:50 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. If we don't fight like hell, I can us getting closer to that.
x(
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Kool Kitty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-24-07 12:10 AM
Response to Reply #28
33. OMG-that really freaks me out.
And the first thing I thought of was "The Handmaid's Tale". I guess I would be sent to the colonies-my childbearing days are long behind me.
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