Biden - Meet The Press

[justinrr1]

I thought Biden did great today, especially when you consider that Russert is one tough host. Biden really reminds me of John Kerry in that he is extremely knowledgeable about so many topics. I know seeing the complexities of so many issues probably hurt Kerry but I am not going to apologize for being drawn to the more intelligent candidates. I also think he is better than Kerry at explaining changes in thinking. I urge all of you to take a good hard look at Biden and stop dismissing him because of one vote or because of previous misstatements. And if Biden is already one of your favorites I urge you to make a contribution to his campaign. With the amounts that the top candidates have raised he needs all the help he can get to remain an alternative (but really he is the solution) for as long as he can. Personally I have been sending him $10 a paycheck since December it is what I have and it may not sound like much but I am about to close in on a $100 contribution. Unlike the others, for Biden every little bit helps. Lets Go Joe!


www.joebiden.com

[WCGreen]

1. Joe really does have what it takes upstairs to be a solid president...

It's a shame that tthe press has deemed him and, for that matter Dodd, outside of the mainstream because of the lack of "sex appeal..."

[NewYorkerfromMass]

60. Speaking of Dodd

the Times did a nice article on him Saturday: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/28/us/politics/28dodd.html?pagewanted=print

[wordpix]

72. you are so right---Biden blew EVERYONE out of the water in terms of his expertise on Iraq

He knows exactly what is going down, he knows the players and he was EXCELLENT. I would trust what he has to say on Iraq any day.

[NI4NI]

2. During the interview

It seemed to me that Biden remembered much more about what was actually said and discussed during past interviews he had on MTP personally that Russert forgot about.

If he can't get elected President, (he and Edwards are my hopes) he'd be a great cabinet member, even if I don't like losing him as my Senator.

[justinrr1]

3. couldnt agree more

Biden does not miss a beat. All we can do is spread the word about Biden if we get enough people the media cant dismiss him and will have to wait longer to get it down to the 2 person race that they want it to be. Glad to see that there may be more Biden fans on here than I thought, but its definitely not enough.

[Sadie5]

5. Biden and the banks

Biden has a long history with MBNA, this is why I cannot vote for him. Biden helped the CC issuers get away with usery. But Edwards I like and could vote for. Just my opinion and I realise others will disagree.

[kath]

8. Biden gave us Clarence Thomas on the Supreme Court.

I will not forgive him for this. Screw you, Joe.

[jillan]

10. Kath - Biden voted NO on Thomas - check it out

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=102&session=1&vote=00220

U.S. Senate Roll Call Votes 102nd Congress - 1st Session

as compiled through Senate LIS by the Senate Bill Clerk under the direction of the Secretary of the Senate


Vote Summary

Question: On the Nomination (Nomination - Clarence Thomas )
Vote Number: 220 Vote Date: October 15, 1991, 06:03 PM


Biden (D-DE), Nay


You are not the first person who said this, I don't know where this is coming from?!

[kath]

65. Biden was in charge of the confimation hearings, and MIS-managed them,

deciding to not allow several witnesses to testify who would have strongly corroborated Anita Hill's testimony - thus cutting short the hearings (leaving Ms. Hill basically hanging out to dry with unsupported testimony) and allowing Thomas to slide through.

[wyldwolf]

71. I don't recall that. Got a link?

[Greyhound]

98. I vaguely remember Anita Hill's testimony, and knew that Thomas was a shitheel

at the time, this was only verified years later when Brock's book was published (after he was no longer useful and had made his name and his fortune selling out), but it comes as no surprise.

In a way Thomas was a precursor to arbusto_®, in that he is the first instance I remember of an obviously incompetent, unqualified, hack being pushed through the process into such a prominent position with only token resistance from the loyal "opposition".

After the long national nightmare we are living through, it is easy for us to forget that the Democrats are equally responsible for this mess. From at least the late 60's they have adamantly refused to do what they know is right, opting instead to feather their own nests and placate the herd with pleas of "practicality" and "feasibility", all the while never even trying to accomplish what must be done.

Most Americans don't vote for Republiks because they believe in their positions, but because they take positions and stand by them.

[saltpoint]

15. Feingold voted for John Ashcroft. You want to screw him, too?

Thomas had a 52-yes count. That means 52 people "gave us" Clarence Thomas."

George H.W. Bush is who "gave us" Clarence Thomas. Thomas was Bush Sr.'s appointment.

You aren't going to get a 100% self-satisfaction rating on any elected representative.

That's not a fair gauge.

Biden is a strongly liberal U.S. Senator, one of the youngest ever elected in U.S. history.

He's a good man and would make a strong president.

[saltpoint]

43. Here is the roll call vote in the U.S. Senate for the nomination of Judge Thomas:

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=102&session=1&vote=00220


Biden voted 'nay.'

[Greyhound]

45. I think you're confusing him with Dodd. n/t

[saltpoint]

46. Christopher Dodd voted 'nay' on Judge Thomas.

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=102&session=1&vote=00220

[Greyhound]

47. Right, maybe I was thinking of Nunn, anyway thanks. n/t

[kath]

66. NOT confusing him with Dodd - see my post#65, above

[depakid]

85. It was largely southern Dems who gave us Thomas....

Voting Yea

Boren (D-OK)
Breaux (D-LA)
DeConcini (D-AZ)
Fowler (D-GA)
Hollings (D-SC)
Johnston (D-LA)
Nunn (D-GA)
Pressler (R-SD)
Robb (D-VA)
Roth (R-DE)
Shelby (D-AL)

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=102&session=1&vote=00220

However, the vote was 52-48, well short of the 60 needed to cut off debate, so Thomas did NOT need to be confirmed. Were the shoes on the other feet- you can bet the Republicans would NEVER have allowed that vote to happen- so Biden and the rest of the "leadership" deserve some of the credit, too.

[jillan]

9. The thing about that vote is that he is from Delaware

Delaware is the capital of credit cards.
Those are the people that elect him, and keep them him in office.

Even tho I don't agree with it, I understand why.
You can't fuck over the people that put you in office.

[saltpoint]

14. A difficult reality which you lay out plain and clear. I agree -- Biden

could have voted against that bill and faced extinction. At some point he has to remain in office in order to BE in office, and we needed him badly against John Bolton and he came through beautifully.

[RapidCreek]

28. Why couldn't someone else do just as well?

You folks who suggest some crooks are better than other crooks really amaze the shit outa me! Wouldn't our government be better off sans crooks regardless of which party they choose to associate themselves with?

You mean to tell me there was no one running in his state that wasn't a crook? That this person wasn't worthy of your vote? The people in this country need to start faithfully voting for clean candidates not for the folks they think are more fuckable....fuckable ain't gonna feed you.

RC

[saltpoint]

30. Not sure I quite follow your thinking.

"Fuckable" ? You lost me at the Taco Bell on that one.

[RapidCreek]

33. I mean Electable....whatever the hell that means...

conveys the same charm as a feckless boob who's never held a real job in his life and went awol from the National Guard? A man who has run out of business any outfit his daddy bought him?

That's what I mean.

...conveys the same charm as a guy who has a long history with MBNA, who helped the CC issuers get away with usery.

Fuckable makes just as much sense as electable in my book. That's why I use the term....It points a finger as the base rational behind it.

RC

[saltpoint]

34. Ok, well anyway, I'll have the stuffed burrito, and a large Pepsi.

I've been in a couple of locker rooms in my life, RC, and "electable" and "fuckable" do NOT mean the same thing.

Your post alludes to Dubya's so-called military record. Near as I can tell, there ISN'T a military record for him. I think he just plumb ducked out. AWOL City.

Biden's been on the job for years. One of the youngest-elected U.S. Senators ever. A faithful Democratic liberal vote in the Senate.

I like the guy. I respect his chops -- especially on foreign policy -- and I think he'd make a good president.

[RapidCreek]

36. yep that is what I am referring to

his lack of a military record didn't seem to inspire it's mention by the media though....all I heard about was how fuckable he was...you know, what you do with a guy you've had a few beers with....oops, I'm sorry I meant to say electable.

How one can overlook the sanctioning of USURY practices by credit card companies just amazes me....I don't give a damn how long he's been on the job or whether I'd like to have a beer with him or not....tell you what chief let's put the beers on your card since you can afford to get screwed.

RC

[saltpoint]

38. Chief? I'm not the chief. You want the guy a couple of doors down.

Look. You don't like Biden's connection to the credit card world. Neither do I.

But there's no perfect, unassailable candidate, RC. You know that.

The longer a man or woman is in a representative body, the more objections possible by voters to individual votes.

We work with what we're given. If you don't like Biden's vote on the bankruptcy bill -- and I agree with you there -- how did you like his stand against John Bolton?

With the aid of other Democratic senators on the SFRC and Lincoln Chafee of all people, Biden spearheaded Bolton's defeat. The national dialogue against John Bolton began in Joe Biden's office.

Credit where it's due.

[RapidCreek]

40. As I said elsewhere in this thread.......Kucinich.

He IS unassailable. I am simply amazed that folks choose to overlook this fact....simply because the guy is elfin. And that IS the reason, there is no other. If there is Id love to hear it.

RC

[saltpoint]

41. As I've indicated downthread, I have a lot of respect for Dennis Kucinich.

But I don't consider him unassailable.

He ran a strong primary re-election against the daughter of a steak restaurant interest in 2006, but there remains the further question of whether he could win a state-wide ballot in Ohio.

I love Dennis but I don't see him carrying Hamilton, Warren, and Butler counties right off the bat, and he would have to struggle in Franklin County. Cuyahoga -- he'd do better in, but with the PLAIN DEALER fiercely aligned against him, I'm not seeing any easy corner of the state.

On the issues, he is astute and authentic. A principled man, to be sure. But there is also to politics the more practical and operational aspect, and Kucinich is not busting much more than 3% in any poll I've seen. State and County party people where I am love the guy but do not list him as a likely nominee. Even if he is their first choice on issues, he is not perceived as -- I hate to say it -- electable.

A good man trapped in a bad system.

[cleveramerican]

49. Kucinich is a weirdo.

and comes across as one. This is the ONLY reason he's at 3%. Its kind of a shame but ther just aren't enough weirdos in the USA to elect one of their own as president.

[saltpoint]

53. His constituents sent him back to the Congress this past November.

And not for the first time.

You're not saying, are you, that he is without attributes and purpose? I think both are visible in Kucinich, in clear, strong ways.

I argue only that he is human and therefore not unassailable.

[RapidCreek]

61. Yes he is only human...some of us hold humans to a higher

standard though. The highest, as should be expected. I don't particularly believe it's "human" to equivocate, lie, misdirect, and sell out your fellows, however....some do, quite obviously. I don't believe that a presidential race should be synonymous with a race to the lowest common denominator that can be stomached by the electorate if a the candidate is fuckable enough. I don't believe that such characteristics in a candidate should be mollified, excused or rationalized by claiming a candidate is only human either.

I am only human. I don't lie cheat, steal, equivocate, misdirect, fuck around on my wife or sell out my fellows. I don't use my humanity as an excuse to do any of these things either...quite the opposite, in fact. Only human infers that we are not animals as well. Being a human infers that we are "above" certain types of behavior that mightbe excused in a beast who is in the fight for the sake of life alone. One should avoid holding a candidate to lower standards than one holds oneself or ones significant other. Doing so leads to the to the sort of problems we have with our politicos today.

RC

[saltpoint]

88. If you back up, you said we're all human.

I agree.

[RapidCreek]

59. Gee, that's really deep!

What is weird about him...exactly. You mean there are enough women, blacks, lawyers, bidnessmen, pathological lairs and privileged rednecks but not enough earnest, compassionate, peace loving people for him to succeed? Do you mean he is not fuckable enough for you? You know, what is established as physically attractive and mentally unchallenging? Fuckable, what you'd love to do after having a beer with him. I don't understand what you are saying.

Was Lincoln a weirdo too?

If you were blind what would you think or say the same thing?



RC

[cleveramerican]

70. its why he's at 3%

I have met him and spoke with him a bit, he's quite charming and knowledgeable. He will never be president. Its not something I can't explain other than to say in the course of my life I have developed sense enough to know when somebody is......quirky.
In most professions this can be overcome. Its fatal to presidential candidates.

[RapidCreek]

101. What do you mean

quirky...exactly what are his quirks?

Clinton likes to fuck women who aren't his wife and he assumes other folks are to fucking stupid to know it.

Bush thinks he is a cowboy, military hero, and native Texan, he also lies allot and is very, very stupid....so much so that the vice president does his job for him, pretty much like someone has always done his job for him.

I'd have to say your wrong about quirks...because both these cats were "elected" two times.

Tell me some of Kucinich's quirks, though, I'd love to know what one or two of them are.

RC

[cleveramerican]

102. "quirky" was being kind to Dennis K

I am an adult American. In my life experiences I have learned to know when the person I'm talking to is a kooky, creepy weirdo, not in a dangerous way or anything, just freakishly eccentric. Nobody has to tell me. Most people have this ability. Its why his candidacy will not succeed in winning him the presidency. He may be a splendid congressman. He is very nice and smart and charming. He will never be president.

You already know this if you are looking at it objectively.

[RapidCreek]

103. Ah I see he's, freakishly eccentric

I'm an adult as well... I was the National Sales and Marketing Director for a publishing company, Ive been a fine dinning waiter for a number of years, I worked on a drill rig and was the manager of Parts and Repair for one of the largest bicycle stores in the country...I worked my way up from a mechanic position. I was a police officer in Orlando and Chicago. I am an Electronics Technician, photographer and fine artist who is now retired. I'd have to say my life experience has afforded me the ability to recoagnize a guy who's talking out his ass and hasn't addressed ANY of the questions I've asked pertaining to Mr. Kucinich's alleged "quirks". Not ONE.

In short, you have given the "reason" you don't want to fuck Mr. Kucinich but not one, not ONE, quirk. Mr. Kucinich is funny looking but so was Abraham Lincoln. I assume you wouldn't have voted for him either.

Let's see now...looking at it objectively...So far you have called mr. Kucinich creepy/charming, kooky/smart and weirdo/nice. Somehow this seems mutually exclusive, if not a bit imbalanced and hardly objective. You have demonstrated your OWN quirkiness but not Mr. Kucinich's.

Thanks for giving it a try though, I appreciate it. There's no need to respond, I don't want you to strain yourself.

RC

[cleveramerican]

105. not crazy enough to be surprised he's got no chance.

good luck getting him the nomination. I bet you fail.

[RapidCreek]

27. I won't

I wonder if he's wrapped up with Chase as well.

RC

[Clark2008]

55. Edwards proposed legislation to help banks get into the predatory

lending business and Biden bothers you?

[paulk]

62. I think you've got your history wrong

The Delaware laws vis usury were changed by the state legislature. Biden works for his state at the federal level.

I would be interested in your documenting the connections Biden has to MBNA, especially in regards to influencing state law.

It might change my opinion of him...

[wordpix]

74. no one is perfect & we need an EXPERT on Iraq to lead us out of this morass BushCo created

Biden would be able to. He could do that as president or Sec. of State.

[treestar]

95. The thing is that MBNA moved to Delaware and brought jobs

So who would do differently in that event? The state government was involved, too, and the state laws made very bank friendly. That is a legacy of DuPont, which used to employ a lot of people in the state. A lot of state laws that favored that employer's circumstances.

So I wouldn't think Biden could do otherwise, but that doesn't mean as President he would have that narrow a focus. It might be the same in any other state.

Face it, we all scream about offshoring "our jobs" but have no problem catering to companies who are bringing jobs in.

[Greyhound]

99. Some of us do have problems with this, this is why we are where we are. n/t

[Byronic]

25. We few, we happy few.....(n/t)

[wordpix]

73. Biden gave a broad hint he'd consider being Sec. of State. He'd be a good one & wouldn't need

to get up to speed on many foreign relations issues; he's already an expert.

[Colobo]

4. Good VP candidate.

[wordpix]

75. why should the foreign policy expert be VP to someone who's a dilettante?

:crazy: The expert should have the final say, not someone who just got to the Senate a few yrs. ago.

[Colobo]

84. Life is not fair

Biden will not win the nomination. Hillary, Obama or maybe Edwards, but no one else will...

[saltpoint]

6. Biden is presidential and has an extremely well-advanced understanding

of U.S. foreign policy.

He always has.

I don't think he should be written off by any means.

[fuzzyball]

12. I second your opinion!!

[wordpix]

76. here, here!

[saltpoint]

7. Hells bells, where are my

manners?

Justin! Welcome to DU.

Welcome aboard.

Your candidate is a good man.

[jillan]

11. A few other threads on this from earlier today

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=3239707&mesg_id=3239707

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3241045

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x3241099

[saltpoint]

13. Yes. Good compilation. Biden made some people think after that

debate in South Carolina.

I think he's in this for a while.

[jillan]

17. What's amazing is his blog on his website

Last week, nobody added comments.
The last few days things have changed.
People are starting to see him as a viable candidate.
I have been keeping on eye on him since 2004 when I would catch him on CSpan giving speeches for Kerry. I'm really glad he is getting some attention.

[saltpoint]

18. pirhana, you're right -- I've noticed a big pickup in activity also.

The talk around some of the Democratic folks I hang out with has been noticeably increased about Biden -- with almost all of it very favorable.

A lot of the praise comes from his depth and also on foreign policy.

[jillan]

21. That's good to hear....

But I'm wondering when you are going to change your avatar---

Just Kidding :)
Being an Edwards supporter definitely has to be easier these days than being a Biden supporter.

[saltpoint]

24. LOL! I like all our Democrats, pirhana. I go back a ways into the days of

RFK, one of my champions. Not perfect, but wildly brilliant and inspirational. Would that we had him back today.

I've admired and respected Joe Biden for a long time. There's absolutely no doubt in my mind that he would make an excellent president. You're right again -- he has his detractors on DU -- but if need be we can arrange to have them bulldozed into deep trenches and never heard from again.

Ha! Mods! That was a joke!

You know of Tip O'Neill's old adage, "All politics is local"? It might have to be altered a bit to say, "All politics is loco."

I think we're in for a really topsy-turvy 9 months going into that Iowa caucus. But in my mind, Biden's stock will rise.

[jillan]

26. It is going to be a great 9 months

And if Al Gore decides to run, I might be changing my avatar.

Anything can happen from now until then.

[SharonRB]

63. I'm definitely a Gore supporter

But I think Biden did a great job on MTP on Sunday and his stock went up a bit for me. Richardson had been my second choice -- now I'm not so sure where I stand if Gore doesn't run. I'm going to have to do a lot of thinking between now and February if Gore doesn't jump in.

One thing for sure -- the landscape will change a lot between now and the primaries/caucuses and some candidates will gain support and others will lose some. I was of the mind that Richardson might be the dark horse -- now I think Biden might actually be the dark horse. For someone who's been around for such a long time, people don't know much about him (or Richardson, for that matter). I think when people learn more about them they'll rise in the polls. Right now it's all about the glitz of Hillary and Obama and I think that will change.

[wordpix]

78. I have always loved to hear Biden speak about Iraq and foreign policy. The guy knows his stuff

and he's got the EXPERTISE to lead well.

[saltpoint]

104. You bet. After listening to the tortuous presser Dubya held this week

on his little veto pen, I think Joe Biden stand mighty tall in comparison.

[JI7]

16. he is intelligent but he shouldn't take credit for things others have done

[wordpix]

80. True but he said he'd learned from that. Most people learn from their mistakes, not their

wins.

[JDPriestly]

19. Not my first choice, but far from my last. I'd work to get him elected if he is the candidatel

[SharonRB]

64. Me, too, but I'd work for anyone who wound up with the nomination

Even Hillary. As long as we wind up with a Dem, I'm okay with almost any of the current crop, even if they're not my top choice. As far as my support now, though, it's with Gore all the way and that won't change until I'm 100% sure that he won't run.

[ToeBot]

20. You're welcome to sing his praises, and justify his voting record,

and if Delaware wants him as a senator, fine. The fact that he can ladle mellifluous bullshit is not going to win me over. He's in the pocket of the banking industry, it's a fact.

[jillan]

22. Hillary is in the pocket

of lobbyists...Obama had some shady character donate to his campaign...
they all have "their base". Except maybe Kucinich - I don't know. I don't know who donated to Edwards. The unfortunate thing about politics is that it is all about money. The candidates have to kiss ass because they need their money. I don't like it one bit. But it's a fact.

[RapidCreek]

29. OK then, Kucinich is the only one who is clean

Why aren't you singing his praises....he's not fuckable enough for you?

[saltpoint]

31. I've respected Kucinich since his days as Mayor of Cleveland.

He's a good man.

[ToeBot]

58. And once again, Democrats are left with no real choice.

A host of corporate shills, bought and paid for, and a few token liberals with no chance of getting nominated. It's been the same game plan used for every primary election I've witnessed.

[KT2000]

23. Usually senators do not

succeed in presidential runs but Biden appears not to have what those senators usually convey. I think it is excessive caution and fear of offending.
Biden just says what he thinks.
I like that.

[Tejanocrat]

32. I'm not too impressed yet (but remain open). Isn't he right of Guiliani on reproductive choice?

[saltpoint]

35. From Ontheissues.org, these are a handful of votes by Biden on reproductive choice:

Voted YES on $100M to reduce teen pregnancy by education & contraceptives. (Mar 2005);

Voted NO on criminal penalty for harming unborn fetus during other crime. (Mar 2004);

Voted NO on maintaining ban on Military Base Abortions. (Jun 2000);

Voted YES on banning partial birth abortions. (Oct 1999);

Voted NO on banning human cloning. (Feb 1998); and

Yes to Expand embryonic stem cell research. (Jun 2004).

Rated 36% by NARAL, indicating a mixed voting record on abortion. (Dec 2003)

As NYC mayor, Giuliani's constituency was decidedly left on reproductive freedom; Biden's constituency is an entire state.

[Tejanocrat]

37. Biden voted to ban d & x procedures without any exception for a woman's health and Giuliani wouldn't

ban d & x procedures. Seems clear enough to me.

I'm not a one issue voter, but if I was and reproductive choice was my big issue, I couldn't support Biden. 36% from NARAL is pretty dismal.

I haven't crossed Biden of my list, but his weakness on reproductive choice, his pro-corporate views on bankruptcy, his gaffe calling Obama the first black "articulate" and "clean" candidate for president and other similar gaffes, his support for "abstinence" sex education, and his "let's draw Iraq's borders for them and make three new Balkanized countries" plan are all pushing me away from him.

[saltpoint]

39. I like the idea of the apportioned nationstates in Iraq. The Kurds have

their own already in everything but contract. There's no better proposal on the table.

If there is, I haven't heard it.

[Tejanocrat]

52. Much of the strife in the Middle East is exacerbated by Britain's artificial creation of nations and

inorganic boundaries to split up the Ottoman government after WWI. This artificial imposition of Western ideas about how the Middle Eastern map should be drawn was a bad idea a century ago and it's not a better idea now.

Moreover, an independent Kurdistan in what is now northern Iraq would invite an ethnic war of cessation in southern (ethnically Kurdish) Turkey. Creating a Shiite state in Southern Iraq would essentially create an Iranian client state on Saudi Arabia's border and remove any buffer between Iran and Saudi Arabia (another invitation to conflict).

Here is an article discussing other inherent problems in creating "made in the USA" Iraqi states as re-divided by an unwelcome occupying power splitting the country along racial lines as Biden proposes: http://www.wilsoncenter.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=wq.essay&essay_id=215618

[saltpoint]

54. Yes, but it is the UK and the U.S. which comprise the "coalition" currently

stationed in the Tigris-Euphrates Valley.

Alexander also governed there and did quite a bit better job than Tommy Franks.

Baghdad was Alexander's capital and he ran it like he meant it, which is to say very capably. He led a well-trained and quite huge Western force and "occupied" the area, but unlike the current century, there was extensive Persian provocation and meddling in the Greek city-states. Saddam Hussein, wretchedly wicked though he certainly was, did not provoke the current U.S. president into war. Dubya selected war on deceptive grounds and attacked pre-emptively.

Agree that the carve-up is not a solution; but in the absence of anything else, it is a blueprint-as-beginning. You cannot argue that al-Maliki is capable of sustaining governance in a sectarian minefield. If Coalition forces remain, al-Maliki's command of events is no less tenuous. If Coalition forces up and leave tomorrow morning, same outcome. A very sad argument could be made that Saddam's cruelty neutralized sectarian hatred. Absent that oppression, the fires rage, and not even Gen. Petraeus can put them out.

Biden's plan is the most stable option I've seen. Blair and Bush have reduced a dynamic culture to rubble and smoke and I can't unscramble those eggs. Among remaining terrible "solutions," I prefer Biden's to anyone else's, especially the Bush administration's.

[Tejanocrat]

56. I agree that al-Maliki can't hold Iraq together but that surely doesn't mean that the US (or Biden)

should be the ones to re-draw the map.

Imagine if a foreign occupying power had intervened in the US Civil War and (1) decided that we were better off with a division rather than a civil war and (2) chose where the North-South border should be drawn. That might give the illusion of a solution that might promote stability, but it would not hold and it would earn the occupying force much enmity.

Saddam was a bad man, but he was a bad man who used brutality to keep the factions in place (I'm not saying this was a good thing; I'm just discussing cause and effect). We removed him. Now there is no one who can keep the factions from each others' throats (this is true both in Iraq and in the broader Middle Eastern division between Sunni and Shia). We couldn't keep them apart even if it was a good idea to impose ourselves into their civil war.

The relative sectarian "peace" in Iraq under Saddam was a false "peace" because it was artificially imposed by a vicious dictator. That false "peace" is now over and if it were possible to restore that false "peace" - if that were a good thing, which is debatable - it would have to be restored with equal brutality by a dictator comparable to Saddam.

Sen. Reid was partly right when he said the war in Iraq was lost. What he should have said was:

(1) the war to oust Saddam has been won,
(2) the war to turn Iraq up-side-down and shake it to confirm that there were no WMDs has been concluded,
(3) the war has evolved into a civil war among the Iraqis and unless the US wants to pick a side in this Iraqi civil war and fight for that side (which would be foolish) there is no role for the US where we can define any plausibly likely outcome as a victory for the US,
(4) the hope harbored by some that we could transition from Saddam's dictatorship to another form of government without an intervening civil war has been lost (either because it was never really Bush's goal because he had ulterior motives, or because Bush was ill-informed and unrealistic in setting this as a goal, or because of Bush's mismanagement of the conflict - take your pick).

[saltpoint]

57. I think we are in agreement on key points, if by degree in some cases,

with the exception of the U.S. Civil War.

I think I now favor secession!

That's only partly intended to be humorous. Every time I hear Jeff Sessions on C-Span, or Richard shelby, or Saxby Chambliss, I'm thinking, hey, let's give these folks their wish. Send us your progressives and the rest of you can do the Toby Keith thing til your blue in the face. Or red in the face.

Turkey wants its NATO status and the modernization that will go with it; but it also wants the Kurds to be trodden upon. The Kurds have other notions of their own destiny. And it's the Kurds in the north of Iraq who have it together. They are in essence already an independent entity, which Biden has pointed out. Control and distribution of oil is the sticking point for everyone else, and Bush/Blair have complicated that beyond forseeable repair, unless there is a contract division among sectarian interests with each a designated recipient of common wealth.

I'll take Biden's plan over any I've seen so far. It may be the best chance yet to mollify very angry militias: disarm and throw in with contract division or lose your share in the oil revenues.

[wordpix]

81. do you really think Biden would "draw the map" of a newly federated Iraq by himself?

:rofl: I don't think that's his plan and he said nothing of the sort on MTP.

[Tejanocrat]

87. The idea is not coming from Iraq. Biden's idea is coming from the US to be imposed on Iraq.

How many times do we have to impose our idea of what's best for Iraq upon the Iraqis before they get a break?

[jillan]

90. On abortion, too bad you missed MTP

Biden talked about that in depth.

He is pro-choice
He is against late term abortion UNLESS THE HEALTH OF THE MOTHER IS INVOLVED. Which is something the supreme court took away.

He believes that life begins when a fetus can survive on its own outside of the womb.

And he warned us that what the
Supreme Ct just passed blurred the language in Roe v Wade.
And he was very concerned, and that's why he spoke about it at the debates and then again on MTP to get the word out to the public.

Who knows where Guliani stands on abortion? I hear his views change daily.

[Tejanocrat]

97. Didn't the Supreme Court uphold a bill which Biden voted for (without the woman's health exception)?

[LaPera]

42. Russert is "one tough host"...If a Dem is on which is rare...Then it becomes "hard hitting".

Not that I care or believe a word Bidens says...Still "Meet the Press" and Russert is Cheney's (BushCo's) mouthpiece.... Russert never fails to lop softballs when republicans are on ...A fact!

Russert is just another rich, filthy whore, who is there to preen & pretend it's a hard hitting and objective news show, far from it...Meet the Press is just another republican forum on the corporate media that they own and exploit.

[Greyhound]

44. Well, if he'd wear the logos from all the corporations that have bribed him,

er... I mean contributed to him, I might consider voting for him. At least that way it would be easy to see why he votes the way he does.

[cleveramerican]

48. I like him more and more

Every time I see him or hear a speech of his, I ask myself why is he a distant fourth?

[elizm]

50. Biden is against public financing of abortion....

...Does that mean he is in favor of abortion, but only for the rich? I'm not sure how you square with that. Has anyone ever heard him explain his views?

[democrat2thecore]

77. I have

He doesn't believe that taxpayers should be financing abortions. It's a catholic issue with him. I can respect that.

[elizm]

92. How can you be in favor of abortion....

...but only for those who can afford it? How can that be a Catholic thing? I can understand him being against abortion because it is a Catholic thing...But abortion for some but not for the poor who can't afford it? How does that square with the Catholic church?

[democrat2thecore]

94. Because

It's one thing to have legal abortions. It's quite another to ask everyone to pay for it. Poor women don't get a lot of things that others get. Not just abortions. Why should all taxpayers, including Catholic taxpayers, be asked to foot the bill for an abortion? Prenatal health care, yes. Abortion? No. It's been ingrained in us to accept the "but poor women can't?" thing. Poor women can't get a heart transplant either. Is that fair? Absolutely not! We need some kind of universal health care system. But to cherry pick what "poor women" are entitled to, with taxpayer money, and those that are not - and include abortion as a freebie on the United States treasury is alien to the thinking of most Catholics. Some, like Biden, believe it should be legal (though they are morally opposed to it) but simply think asking all Americans to pay for it is going too far. But, good people can disagree.

[elizm]

100. Thanks for explaining. :)

[Beaverhausen]

79. Do you have a link to back that up?

[elizm]

89. He said it this weekend on MTP...

I don't have a link but it would be in the transcript of Sunday's show.

[union_maid]

51. Biden would be good

I don't know if it could happen and I don't really know why it couldn't. He's been very impressive when he's talked about Iraq lately and he is sharp and knowledgeable. My husband always thought he could be a good president and he's pretty smart. I don't like the bankruptcy thing either, but...well....Delaware. Jeez...what can you do about that?

[SaveElmer]

67. He was very impressive...

About the best performance on MTP I've seen by anyone in a long time...

[politicasista]

68. He will be cool if or when he stops

taking credit for the things that others have done at their expense. Right now, I am holding out for Gore.

[leftofthedial]

69. you should just send your $10 directly to MBNA

they'll make sure he gets his cut

[depakid]

82. It's telling that despite his hundreds of appearences on the Sunday "shows"

He still has no support....

The gig was up on Biden back in 1988. He's just too arrogant and out of touch to know that.

[Czolgosz]

83. If you got your panties in a twist about a $400 hair cut aren't you curious what Biden's plugs cost?

This question isn't addressed to the OP, who never got into the obsession over "haircutgate" as far as I noticed, but is generally addressed to those who did.

[Colobo]

86. Biden took Richardson's place.

[democrat2thecore]

91. Great job on MTP - Some Biden Thoughts

I was impressed with Biden at the SC debates and even more so on Meet The Press. Russert was tough and Joe Biden handled the questions in a thoughtful and authoritative way that was very - dare I say it - presidential. We've all seen a lot of these MTP interviews and frankly, this is one of the best I've seen by any candidate in the last 4 years (including the '04 cycle). One week can make a big difference. Wasn't SC just a week ago?

[justinrr1]

93. Still Plenty of Time

It has been a good week for Biden. Hopefully this results in some needed cash flow.

[saltpoint]

96. Agree. Biden's had his best week yet, really. And it may jumpstart the

fundraising machine for him.