For those who oppose the guest worker program

[Hippo_Tron]

What do you propose that we do with the 12 million illegal immigrants already here?

I've got mixed feelings and so I'm looking to see what alternatives people have in mind.

[ulysses]

1. there are only 12?

;-)

[Hippo_Tron]

2. Thanks for pointing the typo out

Yes, I think we would have less of a problem if there were only 12 of them.

[bunkerbuster1]

3. Offer them citizenship

Open the damn borders. Free flow of capital and of labor. It's stupid to have the former but not the latter.

And devote, oh, half the resources being pissed away now on this bullshit "warren Terra" to enforceable environmental and labor laws for Mexico, so that Mexico can better provide for their own people.

Hell, maybe I'll move down there. Lots of nice places to live.

[Sapere aude]

4. You know if there was comfortable living there, we would see a migration from the US to Mexico.

Many people are retiring to Panama because the living is comfortable and cheep.

[bunkerbuster1]

9. So long as there are humane labor laws here and in Mexico

I'm fine with offering citizenship to pretty much anyone who wants to come live here. Certainly from within our own trading group--it seems obscene not to.

Now, I recognize that Mexico's environmental laws are a joke, and I don't even know what their minimum wage is, but obviously it needs to be raised. I wouldn't offer blanket citizenship yet, but I'd have it as a carrot to pressure Mexico to clean up its act. There'd be tremendous political pressure from Mexicans, I think.

Just my harebrained theory. But I think it's better, and more practical, than anything I've heard being proposed so far. A "guest worker" program isn't necessarily horrible, but I've seen the effects in some European countries where (for example) you have generations, now, of guest workers who are living in a nether-world; it's bound to create social unrest. That seems kinda dumb to pursue here when we know it's going to be problematic.

[BlackHawk706867]

6. The real problem here is with the Mexican Government as we all know...

and if GWB gets his way, we will have the same situation in the US... He has tried to get rid of the middle class since he became squatter in chief 6 years ago.

ww

[bunkerbuster1]

14. I really don't think America's middle class is going away without a fight.

Goopers won't be able to get away with their bullshit quasi-libertarianism (which amounts to welfare for the biggest corporations and free-marketin' for everyone else) much longer. Vast majorities favor universal healthcare, a higher minimum wage and suchlike, and Democrats--for all their suckiness actually getting things done--will be the beneficiaries of this sentiment.

I think/hope.

[Capn Sunshine]

34. They have so far

hell, Ohio was ( arguably ) won by Bush in the 04 election, and they have one of the highest outsourcing rates in the country.

Even if Bush didn't officially win Ohio, a hell of a lot of middle class victims of his policy voted for him.

[bunkerbuster1]

38. I agree the fight has been tepid so far

But you surely agree that Bush's support is borne more out of fear from imaginary "terrorists" under the bed, a mass disinformation campaign about Social Security's "crisis," plus a slickly-packaged tax rebates, than anything else, yes?

I just don't think that's going to be real hard to run against in '08. I realize corporate media will be a major stumbling block, but not an insurmountable one.

(fingers crossed.)

[sinkingfeeling]

20. Well over 600,000 US expatriates live in Mexico already and is growing by leaps and

bounds.

http://www.mexicoexpo.com/pages/expatriates.html

The number of US citizens that now live in Mexico has grown from 200,000 in the mid 1990's to over 600,000 today, and shows no sign of slowing down. These folks are departing their home stomping grounds from all parts of North America and are setting up new homes on the Baja Peninsula, mainland Mexico and the Yucatan Peninsula. A growing number of retiring Yuppies seem determined to keep the ex-pat numbers on the increase in Mexico for years to come.

[StudentsMustUniteNow]

5. Keep them from working

So that their friends don't join them.

When they see that they're better off where they came from, they'll leave on their own.

And the rest? Send them home.

[bunkerbuster1]

10. Send them home?

Remember Elian Gonzolez?

Multiply that episode by about, oh, five million.

Yeah, that'll be real popular.

[donco6]

13. How do you keep them from working? n/t

[Nederland]

21. Fine employers who hire them 10k for each illegal

The practice will stop overnight.

That's the summation of the hypocrisy on this matter. The problem is easy to solve, provided that you are comfortable with screwing the companies that are simply out to save a buck on cheap labor. The Republican and Democratic parties are both loathe to do that, so we have the problem.

[donco6]

32. I'm an employer. How do I tell someone's illegal? n/t

[Nederland]

36. Good Question

In order to be fair, any such legislation needs to include a nearly fool proof way for employers to know the status of a prospective employee. No method is perfect, which is why I use the caveat nearly, but we can definitely do better than what we have today. Moreover, it's clear that many employers don't even bother to take even reasonable steps, like verifying that the name of the person matches the name associated with the SSN. Fine those people large amounts and that sort of thing will stop. I imagine defining some procedure that basically says, so long as you follow these steps to verify the legality of an employee, you won't get fined.

[youngdem]

22. Fine the shit out of employers and create a hotline to report employed illegals

That would work.

I don't support 'sending them all home', but as a REAL Democrat, I support the working people in this country, and an instant 12 million person addition to the labor pool is gonna be BAD for the American worker. BAD, BAD BAD. Why do you think there are Republicans that have signed on to this? They HATE brown people. They want to make us ALL wage slaves. Flooding the pool with cheap labor/consumers is a pro-republican concept, and it's a Trojan Horse they are wheeling into our eager camp.

Illegal immigration forces down wages and creates HUGE social costs that are bore by the working class' property tax and income tax. Just think about how much it must cost to provide FREE emergency care (and some basic care and prescription assistance through charities) for 12 MILLION PEOPLE!!!

America spends on average $6,102 per person for healthcare, presumably more for those working in high risk, physical or repetitive professions, so that is approximately $73.2 BILLION per YEAR on healthcare costs for illegal immigrants paid for by you and me!!!

Then add education expenses for approximately 1.5 million illegal immigrants of school age...We spend $538 BILLION on K-12 public education for about 49 million kids - approximately $11,000 per student, meaning we all spend $16.5 BILLION educating illegal immigrants.

Then you have to consider wear and tear on public resources, public infrastructure and law enforcement(everyone breaks the law sometimes, NOT trying to stereotype). That MUST total into the billions each year nationwide.

Allowing 12 million people to instantly join your country puts the welfare of those not from here above Americans, and that is fucked up priorities. And I doubt unions are gonna like us too much if we flood the market with MILLIONS of legal immigrants HUNGRY for a job at the front end of a recession, driving down wages.

I know it feels good to say "Let everyone in!" but I don't think we can afford it. We are spending about $100 BILLION a year in direct costs on people who are depressing wages and drawing on very stressed out public resources - particularly public education and emergency medical care.

Sorry, I just can't get excited about this.

We need to have MEASURED immigration and no rewards for illegal entry, and PENALTIES for employers who hire illegal immigrants, and the fines should go into a fund to prosecute more employers and fund unemployment disbursements in the employers' districts.

[Nederland]

25. Well said (nt)

[Hippo_Tron]

15. How do you send millions of people home?

I don't see the logistics of how this could possibly work.

[StudentsMustUniteNow]

18. You send enough home to set an example

If we keep it up, it'll discourage others from coming here. The law must be enforced cleanly and effectively.

Essentially these "guest workers" are scabs for big business.

[mitchum]

37. "...these guest workers are scabs for big business"...Absolutely!

THAT is what it is all about

[Nederland]

23. They got here on their own, they can leave on their own

The problem is actually very simple. Eliminate their jobs and they will leave. They came here to work. If they can't work, they will have no reason to stay and will leave of their own accord. So long as you are willing to approach this problem from the employer angle rather than the employee angle, it's really very simple to solve. Problem is, neither party is willing to screw over their corporate masters who rely on cheap labor.

[laureloak]

35. You got it babe!

[The_Progressive]

7. It's a moral issue.

I am for a guest worker program. But no blanket amnesty with citizenship.

First, it's not fair to those immigrants tho have to wait, who follow the rules, who have been separated from their families for years, to provide a fast-track path to citizenship to those who broke the laws getting here. It's a matter of fairness.

Secondly, illegal immigration is the modern form of slavery. You are exploiting the worker, and his/her situation for monetary gain. It is immoral.

Third, it's not fair to displace working American workers with illegal foreign workers and have the government condone this process with incentives. It's anti-patriotic.

All foreign workers must have a work permit. Hiring a foreign worked without this permit is a felony punishable by a long prison sentence and huge fines.

[bunkerbuster1]

11. Hiring undocumented workers is already illegal

Laws were beefed up, IIRC, with the '86 reforms. They've been proven unenforceable... well, I'm assuming they are, perhaps it's just that there's been no political will to frog-march CEOs of companies that are guilty of the practice.

[pampango]

28. You are right. Neither party has enforced the laws against hiring

illegal immigrants. The laws are either unenforceable as written or neither party has the political will to enforce them. (I can see a problem with expecting employers to be the agents responsible for determining if immigration documents presented are genuine or fake.)

If we just spin our wheels here by chanting "Prosecute the employers!", we will accomplish nothing in reality, except feeling better about the venting. At times I feel that we have reached common cause with the Freepers out there, with the strategy of "Send them home (or better yet - make them send themselves home) and tighten the border." Hell, it's the Democrats that are the ones who have insisted on decent treatment of the 12 million illegal immigrants here now - many with American children.

It is starting to look like the Repub base will unite with the Dem base to kill any change in immigration law. We will be left with the same mess that has existed for years. (Oh, I forgot. "Prosecute the employers!" Now, I feel better.) ;)

[bluestateguy]

8. Enforce the law first, then we can talk about a guest worker program

Deport all illegals with felony convictions, crackdown on employers who abuse and exploit this quasi-slave labor, and secure the borders, perhaps with National Guardsmen (and bring them the fuck home from Iraq to do it!).

[bunkerbuster1]

12. I'd like to think this is practical.

I suspect it is not.

[BlackHawk706867]

16. And while you are enforcing the law, secure the damn borders. eom ww

[LBJDemocrat]

17. Three things

1. Enforce the law to such an extent that it becomes impossible to hire illegals. Also, make the penalty for hiring illegals include prison time. If it's just a fine, the company might take the risk.

2. Build, not just a fence, but a wall, like what Israel has built.

3. Deport all of those with criminal convictions.

[dwp6577]

24. 1 and 3 perfect...2 I disagree with....my 2

Bring all national guard home and put them on the border...you won't need that many (only for the 3's) if you can enforce 1.

This will, of course, require that we impeach/indict/imprison the entire bush cabal...and this would solve a bunch of other problems in a trickle down sort of way :)

[primative1]

19. Blow gas like the senate is doing now ...

When they are done and create nothing ... then enforce the current law, at least the part about making an actual border that holds and follow up on the endless visa overruns (like every other country on the planet).. you know, law enforcement ..
When the border actually works, then grant amnesty .. not before ..
Noone invited these people to sneak in so noone should cry because they grow impatient ... christ they can do anything they want now anyhow, whats the difference.
As for Guest workers? We're overcrowded enough and we don't need no stinking GUEST workers, shit we could use some of chinas zero population growth thinking, aren't services stretched far enough already? ... If companies need cheep labor than raise the frigging price for their products so that they can pay livable wages, suddenly no problemo finding workers ... If they have trouble raising prices due to foreign competition then fix the frigging trade agreements //
Why should we let trade agreements dictate our quality of life?

[laureloak]

26. For one thing, retroactively rescind the anchor baby law.

Children born to illegals should also be illegal. The last thing we should do is reward illegal entry (law breakers) with citizenship.

As for those that are already here, tell them to leave the country or expect to be physically deported. Those that don't leave voluntarily could be taken back by the same method that they came in. Millions found their way in and now millions can find their way out.

No more Americans in America should lose their jobs because they don't speak Spanish.

[AtomicKitten]

27. I find the "pathway" to citizenship ridiculous.

The $5K fine which is a huge bite for many people so I won't even mention making them pay back taxes, and the touch-back to country of origin crap and then making them wait "years" to come back. Please.

I find the dichotomy between the GOP rank and file bigotry and the GOP corporate greed amusing, however.

My expectation as a Democrat is that we be smart but call upon our humanity in solving this problem.

[pampango]

30. Good luck with that last sentence.

"Send 'em back and build the wall" seems to be the preference of the GOP rank and file bigots and many here at DU (though, thankfully without the bigotry, for the most part). Our "humanity" at DU seems reserved primarily for Americans, not foreigners.

As I understand the proposed legislation, current illegal immigrants who decide to just live here without becoming citizens won't have to pay the $5,000 or the rest of the stuff. Most would logically choose to just do that and raise their families here to become Americans, even if they don't become citizens themselves.

[AtomicKitten]

31. We are all not too far out generationally from being foreigners.

People forget that and too easily become proprietary over a country that was never ours to begin with.

[SaveElmer]

29. We already have a guest worker program...

It's just under the table, with no accountability, and no way to move forward in resolving the situation...

Do nothing, and these 12 million will continue to be here, continue working, and we will continue to have a problem...

I think the bill they are talking about is about as good as we can get now. Personally I would give all 12 million amnesty if they could show they had been in the country before a certain date...and get them on the road to citizenship...and I think the requirement that they do a quick touchback to their country of origin is ridiculous...

Coupled with this has to be not only strict law enforcement and border control, but a fundamental change in how our government and business deals with these countries. It is hardly surprising these people are here when, through our policies and business practices we practically invited them up here...

[rufus dog]

33. agree

Also with some of our farming subsidies we impact their ability to make a living growing certain crops, corn for example.