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Has Kerry ever said the war in Iraq was wrong?

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ShimokitaJer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 09:56 AM
Original message
Has Kerry ever said the war in Iraq was wrong?
I've heard him criticize Bush for pursuing it badly, for acting on bad intelligence, and for failing to gain international support, but I've never heard him say the war in Iraq was a bad idea. On the contrary, he criticizes Bush for making it more difficult to "get the job done" in Iraq, but he never seems to question whether the job needed doing.

I'm sure the Kerry supporters will point out that Saddam was a cruel dictator who deserved to be taken down. While true, that isn't the issue. If we're talking about military threats, North Korea posed a far greater one, and if we're talking about terrorist threats, Syria was far more important. Why did we need to go to Iraq?

The New Democrats are as interested as the neocons in using American military power to enforce America's will, and I have to question how Kerry will use the power of the presidency should he be elected. Do we have the luxury of supporting a kinder, gentler American imperialism?
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Iverson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 09:58 AM
Response to Original message
1. related question
Has he ever voted so?
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seventhson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 09:59 AM
Response to Original message
2. Very good points
I agree completely.

This is why Dean is the better candidate than Kerry.
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Skip Intro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 10:08 AM
Response to Original message
3. I've been asking that question for weeks now - no answers
Edited on Sat Feb-14-04 10:12 AM by nu_duer
Same goes for Edwards, btw.

It was a war we did not have to fight, all the deaths, and misery and damage done on so many levels - you'd think a clear statement from these guys would be warranted. Its not like its some highway bill or something. This was a crime against humanity - and it is now clear it was a sham - a lie.

What they voted then is one thing, but for neither Edwards nor Kerry to be able to say it was a mistake at this point just boggles the mind. I would expect more from our side is the wake of the bush regime.

The only conclusion is that Kerry (and Edwards) still support invading Iraq, reguardless of the lies. Their refusal to make a clear statement on this is worthy of the other party, not ours.

Where is the straight talk?!

Good luck in getting an answer from JK/JE supporters.
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HFishbine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 11:52 AM
Response to Reply #3
9. Unlike Kerry, Edwards talks straight about the war
If you're looking for Edwards to admit it was a mistake, good luck. He insists it was the right thing to do.
---------

MATTHEWS: <snip> Let me ask but the war, because I know these are all students and a lot of guys the age of these students are fighting over there and cleaning up over there, and they’re doing the occupation.

Were we right to go to this war alone, basically without the Europeans behind us? Was that something we had to do?

EDWARDS: I think that we were right to go. I think we were right to go to the United Nations. I think we couldn’t let those who could veto in the Security Council hold us hostage.

And I think Saddam Hussein, being gone is good. Good for the American people, good for the security of that region of the world, and good for the Iraqi people.

MATTHEWS: If you think the decision, which was made by the president, when basically he saw the French weren’t with us and the Germans and the Russians weren’t with us, was he right to say, “We’re going anyway”?

EDWARDS: I stand behind my support of that, yes.

MATTHEWS: You believe in that?

EDWARDS: Yes.

MATTHEWS: Let me ask you about-Since you did support the resolution and you did support that ultimate solution to go into combat and to take over that government and occupy that country. Do you think that you, as a United States Senator, got the straight story from the Bush administration on this war? On the need for the war? Did you get the straight story?

EDWARDS: Well, the first thing I should say is I take responsibility for my vote. Period. And I did what I did based upon a belief, Chris, that Saddam Hussein’s potential for getting nuclear capability was what created the threat. That was always the focus of my concern. Still is the focus of my concern.

So did I get misled? No. I didn’t get misled.

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Skip Intro Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #9
12. Thanks - and that's exactly why I cannot support Edwards
He supported it then, and he supports it now. No difference between Edwards and bush on this. And this issue, mass murder for lies is what it is, is a pivotal one for me, should be for everyone, imho. I will not vote for Edwards.

Thanks for passing that along, must have missed it.


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HFishbine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #12
15. Forgot the link
Share it with your friends: http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3131295/
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Bonobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 10:17 AM
Response to Original message
4. Shimokita, it is impossible to say with certainty at this point, but
my gut feeling is that Kerry will not be a hawk. As fo not saying the war was wrong, if I have learned anything about Kerry, it is that he is a politician's politician. Not my cup of tea, but c'est la guerre...
My gut says that he will not be a belligerant hawk...for what that's worth. Take it or leave it. It's just my opinion, neh?
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ShimokitaJer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. I doubt he will either, but that isn't the point
We can't rely on a single personality to "do the right thing," when both the Republicans and the Democrats are attempting to codify Bush's doctrine of pre-emptive military action without international support as their official position. Read the PPI's report on "progressive internationalism" and tell me how it differs from the PNAC position. The New Democrats jump at the chance to criticize Bush's handling of Iraq, and with good reason, but they fail to condemn the acts which granted limited war power to the president and the doctrine of "proactive" military response. They say they only want it to be with international support, but they include a disclaimer saying they must leave the option of unilateral action open.

These actions were wrong, and it is not in our interest to make them the official policy of the United States. Do you think Kerry will be the president forever?
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Bonobo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #6
17. That's a damn fine point! Very disturbing.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #6
22. Read Sen. Kerry's statement before the vote

This is already the policy of the U.S. We reserve the right to act peeemptively if we face an imminent threat. What would you have us do? Wait for the U.N. to tell us when and how to defend ourselves? The real crime was the exaggeration of the threat from Iraq by Bush and his cabal. There was no imminent threat as he and his gang claimed through photographs and the like. We still dont't know the true nature and quantity of the evidence that was presented. Sen. Kerry determined that the danger was enough to mandate a return to the U.N backed up by a threat of force. He did this from bogus evidence presented by the administration. He acted in accordance with that to restrain the president by sending him back to the Security Council and resolve the conflict there. Inspectors were allowed back in by Saddam presumably because of the threat implied in the resolution. They were withdrawn only after the president jumped to invade.


Sen. Kerry's statement:

“In voting to grant the President the authority, I am not giving him carte blanche to run roughshod over every country that poses or may pose some kind of potential threat to the United States. Every nation has the right to act preemptively, if it faces an imminent and grave threat, for its self-defense under the standards of law. The threat we face today with Iraq does not meet that test yet. I emphasize ``yet.'' Yes, it is grave because of the deadliness of Saddam Hussein's arsenal and the very high probability that he might use these weapons one day if not disarmed. But it is not imminent, and no one in the CIA, no intelligence briefing we have had suggests it is imminent. None of our intelligence reports suggest that he is about to launch an attack.”

“If we do wind up going to war with Iraq, it is imperative that we do so with others in the international community, unless there is a showing of a grave, imminent--and I emphasize "imminent"--threat to this country which requires the President to respond in a way that protects our immediate national security needs.”


You can't say that Sen. Kerry supported the invasion or that the resolution, if followed, would have necessarily led to war without putting words in his mouth or taking his statements out of context.
Bush disregarded the restraint implied in the resolution and pushed past Congress, the American people, and the world community in his predisposed zeal to invade and occupy Iraq.

Full statement of John Kerry's floor speech:
http://www.independentsforkerry.com/uploads/media/kerry-iraq.html
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HFishbine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 08:04 PM
Response to Reply #22
37. And therein lies the hypocricy
Why would a senator acknowldedge that the threat is not immenent, yet vote to give Bush "the authority?" It was a cowardly act.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #37
40. The IWR did not give authority for what Bush ultimately did

Some Democrats saw the resolution as a way to restrain Bush and send him back to the U.N. My candidate was desperate to stifle Bush's argument for immediate invasion and sought to mandate a return to the international table by limiting Bush's authority in the resolution.

Whether or not the resolution had passed, Bush was intent on invading and occupying Iraq. He had gone around for days proclaiming that 1441 gave him the authority to do whatever he wanted.

If the resolution had failed, the president I think, would have committed forces anyway as decades of presidents had also put troops in the field for 60 days without congressional approval. In that event, I believe, the Congress would be loath to retreat and remove forces. Then, by law a resolution would have been drawn up, likely resembling the one we have now; urging Bush back to the U.N. and calling for internationalization of the conflict.

That is how determined presidents get us into war. Check and checkmate. It's democracy-lite. It sucks, but it is difficult, if not impossible, to restrain a president from committing forces because of the loopholed prerogative inherent in the War Powers Act, which is referenced in the IWR. The only way to direct him is through some sort of resolution. Remember, we were outraged by his plans but the majority of Americans didn't make much of a fuss. We had lost the PR battle before the vote.

It is possible that a unified front of opposition to the resolution could have turned the public against the plan to invade. But I don't think that was at all possible with the republican majority in the Senate, and in view of Bush's plan to invade with or without congressional approval.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #37
41. Oh, yeah. Cowardly act. Strong words of yours backed up by parsing his
Parse these:

"The timid are afraid before the danger, the cowardly while in danger, and the courageous after danger."

-Jean Paul(1763-1825)
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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #37
43. The vote on the Iraq Resolution gave Bush the authority
To go to war in Iraq, only if all other methods of dealing with Iraq's violation of U.N. Resolutions, international agreements that Iraq had entered into, other violations of international law were proven ineffective.Netther Kerry or any other Democrat approved of Bush going to war in Iraq at the time that he did, or for the reasons given by the Bush Admnistration. It seems that the vast majority of the democratic electorate have been capable of differentiating this, and understand that this is the correct interpretation of the "Authorization of the Use Of Military Force in Iraq Act" and not the misinterpretation of the act that several of the candidates tried circulating.

From the vote and other polls, it is obvious that the democratic electorate do not support Bush's war in Iraq, but totally accept Kerry's stance and interpretation of the legislation.

They decided to look into the facts about the act, rather than to accept the word of a candidate who stated that the act was a "blank check for war". In fact, this interpretations seems to be one of the statements that has weighed heavily against the candidate who made it. It has made many people aware that a candidate who could misinterpret legislation to this degree does not have the foreign affairs experience necessary to be president.

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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 08:14 PM
Response to Reply #22
39. Where was Kerry on March 20, when the war began?
Did he denounce Bush for betrayal? Did he call a press conference to say that Bush exceeded his Congressional mandate? Did he call for Bush's impeachment.

Kerry did not criticize the war in Iraq until it became obvious that the occupation was going horribly wrong.

If Kerry had core values like the Catholic peace organization Pax Christi, he would have endorsed their press release when the war began:

Statement on Commencement of War with Iraq - March 21, 2003

Pax Christi USA mourns the failure of U.S. policy and unequivocally condemns the illegal and immoral war on Iraq. No nation, regardless of its power or privilege, has the right to disregard the United Nations’ charter. The policy of “preemptive war” has been condemned by the Vatican, rejected by the United Nations Security Council and opposed by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops. Pax Christi USA rejects war, preparations for war, and every form of violence and domination.

Our thoughts and prayers are with the people of Iraq as they endure the violence, chaos and uncertainty of war. We are inspired by the commitment of our bothers and sisters on the Iraq Peace Team who have remained with the people of Iraq to share in their suffering and we pray for their safety and serenity as war unfolds around them.

<snip>

Finally, Pax Christi USA rejects the cynical manipulation of the US public’s heartfelt concern for our troops’ lives. Opposition to this war does not amount to opposition to the troops and any such accusations must be unmasked for what they are: propaganda intended to stifle dissent. Pax Christi USA deeply believes that the best way to truly support our troops is to bring them home rather than place them in the physical and moral jeopardy involved in carrying out an illegal and immoral military action on behalf of powerful but narrow interests.

True peace is the fruit of just relationships and is never achieved though violence. True security will come only when our nation is able to fulfill its role as the most powerful nation on earth with humility, compassion, reciprocity and solidarity with the community of nations. As disciples of the Nonviolent Christ, we recommit ourselves to the pursuit of justice and development of lasting peace.

http://www.paxchristiusa.org/news_events_more.asp?id=502
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #39
42. Statement of Senator John Kerry Regarding President Bush's Announcement

Statement of Senator John Kerry Regarding President Bush's Announcement on Iraq 03/18/2003

http://www.vote-smart.org/speech_detail.php?speech_id=M000003667&keywo ...
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 08:29 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. Kerry is endorsing the war in that statement
Despite Kerry self-serving description of himself as being "angered, saddened and dismayed," he proceeds to endorse the war and preemptive war in general, and he also repeats the lie that Saddam is an imminent threat to the US:

From that perspective, regardless of the Administration's mishandling of so much of this situation, no President can defer the national security decisions of this country to the United Nations or any other multilateral institution or individual country.

Even having botched the diplomacy, it is the duty of any President, in the final analysis, to defend this nation and dispel the security threats - threats both immediate and longer term - against it. Saddam Hussein has brought military action upon himself by refusing for twelve years to comply with the mandates of the United Nations. The brave and capable men and women of our armed forces and those who are with us will quickly, I know, remove him once and for all as a threat to his neighbors, to the world, and to his own people, and I support their doing so.
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mike_c Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 10:22 AM
Response to Original message
5. Kerry (and Edwards) carry the burden of responsibility...
...for the invasion of Iraq. Apparently Kerry is not big on self-criticism.
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ShimokitaJer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 11:44 AM
Response to Original message
7. And while we're on the subject...
Has Kerry said he opposes reinstating the draft? I know he has the support of Rangel, who introduced the bill to reinstate it.

Any Kerry supporters out there?
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gate of the sun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. This is something I want to know as well
while everyone is screaming for Kerry it's like wait a minute....what's this guys plan for Iraq? What about the Draft? How is everyone going to feel come 2005 when their kids are being drafted by Kerry? Why isn't this a major campaign issue?
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charlie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #7
14. He says he'll enlarge the military
by 40K troops within his first 100 days in office. Where or how he'll get them, I haven't heard him say.
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goobergunch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 11:54 AM
Response to Original message
10. I can't find anything on his campaign website
:shrug:
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goobergunch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 11:54 AM
Response to Original message
11. Duplicate Post Deleted (n/t)
Edited on Sat Feb-14-04 11:55 AM by goobergunch
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RichM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 12:07 PM
Response to Original message
13. Kerry accepts the "WMD" excuse for war, never uttering the word "oil."
As in, "Oil was one of the REAL motivations for the war."

Kerry, like Bush, and all the Democrats except Kucinich, uses phrases like "We need to protect Americans," "Saddam was a threat," and "We must keep our nation secure." Anyone who accepts this rhetorical framework is demonstrating either that they don't understand what the war was really about, or they aren't willing to publicly say what it was about.
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snoochie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #13
18. This is why I think Kucinich is the strongest candidate
Call me crazy or flame me, but that's my opinion. I think it would be great to have a real straight talker for a change.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 06:00 PM
Response to Reply #13
20. We need to protect Americans," "Saddam was a threat,"
"We must keep our nation secure."

These were not unreasonable rationals for Sen. Kerry's support of the IWR. These selective quotes are related to his arguments against unilateral, preemptive invasion. You may have not read his statements on the floor of the Senate before the vote where he stated that:

“The administration's decision to engage on this issue now, rather than a year ago or earlier, and the manner in which it has engaged, has politicized and complicated the national debate and raised questions about the credibility of their case.”

“I would have preferred that the President agree to the approach drafted by Senators Biden and Lugar because that resolution would authorize the use of force for the explicit purpose of disarming Iraq and countering the threat posed by Iraq's weapons of mass destruction.

The Biden-Lugar resolution also acknowledges the importance of the President's efforts at the United Nations. It would require the President, before exercising the authority granted in the resolution, to send a determination to Congress that the United States tried to seek a new Security Council resolution or that the threat posed by Iraq's WMD is so great he must act absent a new resolution--a power, incidentally, that the President of the United States always has.

I believe this approach would have provided greater clarity to the American people about the reason for going to war and the specific grant of authority. I think it would have been a better way to do this. But it does not change the bottom line of what we are voting for.” (The Presidnetial Determination section was eventually added to the IWR.)

“In giving the President this authority, I expect him to fulfill the commitments he has made to the American people in recent days--to work with the United Nations Security Council to adopt a new resolution setting out tough and immediate inspection requirements, and to act with our allies at our side if we have to disarm Saddam Hussein by force. If he fails to do so, I will be among the first to speak out.“

“In voting to grant the President the authority, I am not giving him carte blanche to run roughshod over every country that poses or may pose some kind of potential threat to the United States. Every nation has the right to act preemptively, if it faces an imminent and grave threat, for its self-defense under the standards of law. The threat we face today with Iraq does not meet that test yet. I emphasize ``yet.'' Yes, it is grave because of the deadliness of Saddam Hussein's arsenal and the very high probability that he might use these weapons one day if not disarmed. But it is not imminent, and no one in the CIA, no intelligence briefing we have had suggests it is imminent. None of our intelligence reports suggest that he is about to launch an attack.”

“If we do wind up going to war with Iraq, it is imperative that we do so with others in the international community, unless there is a showing of a grave, imminent--and I emphasize "imminent"--threat to this country which requires the President to respond in a way that protects our immediate national security needs.”

“So I believe the Senate will make it clear, and the country will make it clear, that we will not be blackmailed or extorted by these weapons, and we will not permit the United Nations--an institution we have worked hard to nurture and create--to simply be ignored by this dictator.”
http://www.independentsforkerry.com/uploads/media/kerry-iraq.html


This is my proof of his intentions. This is his stated rationale. He is clearly against what Bush ultimately did.


And after the invasion:

"I find myself angered, saddened and dismayed by the situation in which this nation finds itself tonight. As the world's sole superpower in an increasingly hostile and dangerous world, our government's obligation to protect the security of the United States and the law abiding nations of the world could not be more clear, particularly in the aftermath of September 11.

Yet the Administration's handling of the run up to war with Iraq could not possibly have been more inept or self-defeating. President Bush has clumsily and arrogantly squandered the post 9/11 support and goodwill of the entire civilized world in a manner that will make the jobs ahead of us -- both the military defeat and the rebuilding of Iraq -- decidedly more expensive in every sense of that word.

Even having botched the diplomacy, it is the duty of any President, in the final analysis, to defend this nation and dispel the security threats - threats both immediate and longer term - against it. Saddam Hussein has brought military action upon himself by refusing for twelve years to comply with the mandates of the United Nations. The brave and capable men and women of our armed forces and those who are with us will quickly, I know, remove him once and for all as a threat to his neighbors, to the world, and to his own people, and I support their doing so.

My strong personal preference would have been for the Administration -- like the Administration of George Bush, Sr. -- to have given diplomacy more time, more commitment, a real chance of success. In my estimation, giving the world thirty additional days for additional real multilateral coalition building -- a real summit, not a five hour flyby with most of the world's powers excluded -- would have been prudent and no impediment to our military situation, an assessment with which our top military brass apparently agree. Unfortunately, that is an option that has been disregarded by President Bush." Statement of Senator John Kerry Regarding President Bush's Announcement on Iraq 03/18/2003
http://www.vote-smart.org/speech_detail.php?speech_id=M000003667&keywo ...


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goobergunch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 03:58 PM
Response to Original message
16. kick
:kick:
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 05:41 PM
Response to Original message
19. What you fail to acknowledge
is that the international effort would likely have resolved the standoff without war. As for the effort in Congress to oust Saddam, that was a legitimate matter for the U.N. and it was appropriate for the U.S, who had a hand in propping up the autocratic regime there, to give support in effecting his removal.

What I resist is replacing Bush's blustering, arrogant preemption for a benign neglect. What I don't see is any counter policy of the left that would similarly support the U.N. in efforts to deal with these oppressive regimes.

Pray, what is the policy of the left in regard to oppressive regimes? Does the left eschew any military involvement outside of our borders? Does the left repudiate the alliances we already support and defend?

Is there a manifesto from the left on this or would the policy be catch as catch can? Where is the coherent policy document that your candidate would follow? I would be interested in comparing and contrasting it with the inituatives of the DLC.

And I will certainly contrast the unilateral, preemptive doctrine of the Bush league with the multilateral, preeminent role outlined in the DLC documents as I have above.
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HFishbine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #19
25. What DLC Documents?
I'd like to read those. Got a link?
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #25
27. I won't half-ass this. There is too much BS flying around
In September 2000, the PNAC drafted a report entitled "Rebuilding America's Defenses: Strategy, Forces and Resources for a New Century."

The conservative foundation- funded report was authored by Bill Kristol, Bruce Jackson, Gary Schmitt, John Bolton and others. Bolton, now Under Secretary of State for Arms Control and International Security, was Senior Vice President of the conservative American Enterprise Institute.

The report called for: ". . . significant, separate allocation of forces and budgetary resources over the next two decades for missile defense," and claimed that despite the "residue of investments first made in the mid- and late 1980s, over the past decade, the pace of innovation within the Pentagon had slowed measurably." Also that, "without the driving challenge of the Soviet military threat, efforts at innovation had lacked urgency."

The PNAC report asserted that "while long-range precision strikes will certainly play an increasingly large role in U.S. military operations, American forces must remain deployed abroad, in large numbers for decades and that U.S. forces will continue to operate many, if not most, of today's weapons systems for a decade or more."

The PNAC document encouraged the military to "develop and deploy global missile defenses to defend the American homeland and American allies, and to provide a secure basis for U.S. power projection around the world."

In reference to the nation's nuclear forces, the PNAC document asserted that, " reconfiguring its nuclear force, the United States also must counteract the effects of the proliferation of ballistic missiles and weapons of mass destruction that may soon allow lesser states to deter U.S. military action by threatening U.S. allies and the American homeland itself."

"The (Clinton) administration's stewardship of the nation's deterrent capability has been described by Congress as "erosion by design," the group chided.

The authors further warned that, "U.S. nuclear force planning and related arms control policies must take account of a larger set of variables than in the past, including the growing number of small nuclear arsenals –from North Korea to Pakistan to, perhaps soon, Iran and Iraq – and a modernized and expanded Chinese nuclear force."

In addition, they counseled, "there may be a need to develop a new family of nuclear weapons designed to address new sets of military requirements, such as would be required in targeting the very deep underground, hardened bunkers that are being built by many of our potential adversaries."

The 2002 PNAC document is a mirrored synopsis of the Bush administration's foreign policy today. President Bush is projecting a domineering image of the United States around the world which has provoked lesser equipped countries to desperate, unconventional defenses; or resigned them to a humiliating surrender to our rape of their lands, their resources and their communities.

The PNAC ‘Rebuilding America' report was used after the Sept. 11th terrorist attacks to draft the 2002 document entitled "The National Security Strategy of the United States," which for the first time in the nation's history advocated "preemptive" attacks to prevent the emergence of opponents the administration considered a threat to its political and economic interests.

It states that ". . . we will not hesitate to act alone, if necessary, to exercise our right of self-defense by acting preemptively against such terrorists, to prevent them from doing harm against our people and our country." And that, "To forestall or prevent such hostile acts by our adversaries, the United States will, if necessary, act preemptively."

This military industry band of executives promoted the view, in and outside of the White House that, " must be prepared to stop rogue states and their terrorist clients before they are able to threaten or use weapons of mass destruction against the United States and our allies and friends. . . We must deter and defend against the threat before it is unleashed."

‘Peace through strength’; big kid on the block,' is a posture which is more appropriately used to counter threats by nations; not to threats by rouge individuals with no known base of operations.

Their strategy asserts that "The United States has long maintained the option of preemptive actions to counter a sufficient threat to our national security. The greater the threat, the greater is the risk of inaction - and the more compelling the case for taking anticipatory action to defend ourselves, even if uncertainty remains as to the time and place of the enemy's attack."

So their plan is to attack whomever, whenever they feel our security is threatened, no matter if the nature and prevalence of the attack is uncertain. The U.N. should have studied this document before it wasted its time trying to reign President Bush in.

(mods, the above is from my book)


Kerry signed the DLC manifesto, "A New Agenda for the New Decade":
http://www.issues2002.org/International/John_Kerry_Foreign_Policy.htm

Build a Public Consensus Supporting US Global Leadership

The internationalist outlook that served America and the world so well during the second half of the 20th century is under attack from both ends of the political spectrum. As the left has gravitated toward protectionism, many on the right have reverted to “America First” isolationism.

Our leaders should articulate a progressive internationalism based on the new realities of the Information Age: globalization, democracy, American pre-eminence, and the rise of a new array of threats ranging from regional and ethnic conflicts to the spread of missiles and biological, chemical, and nuclear weapons. This approach recognizes the need to revamp, while continuing to rely on, multilateral alliances that advance U.S. values and interests.

A strong, technologically superior defense is the foundation for US global leadership. Yet the US continues to employ defense strategies, military missions, and force structures left over from the Cold War, creating a defense establishment that is ill-prepared to meet new threats to our security. The US must speed up the “revolution in military affairs” that uses our technological advantage to project force in many different contingencies involving uncertain and rapidly changing security threats -- including terrorism and information warfare.

Goals for 2010

A clear national policy with bipartisan support that continues US global leadership, adjusts our alliances to new regional threats to peace and security, promotes the spread of political and economic freedom, and outlines where and how we are willing to use force.
A modernized military equipped to deal with emerging threats to security, such as terrorism, information warfare, weapons of mass destruction, and destabilizing regional conflicts.
Source: The Hyde Park Declaration 00-DLC12 on Aug 1, 2000


____________________________________________________________________


DLC | New Dem Daily | October 31, 2003
Idea of the Week: Progressive Internationalism
http://www.ndol.org/ndol_ci.cfm?contentid=252147&kaid=131&subid=207

Just over a year from now, the country will face a critical national election. But between now and then, Democrats must cross a threshold of credibility on national security issues before much of the public will listen to the rest of their powerful case for firing the incumbent.

Recent events in Iraq and the Middle East generally, compounded by the Bush administration's chronic failure to obtain international support for U.S. policies, have emboldened some Democrats to believe that the facts on the ground alone can erase the big advantage Republicans hold on national security issues.

That is wishful thinking. Simply exploiting administration policy failures without laying out a coherent critique of the GOP philosophy toward the rest of the world will take Democrats only so far in challenging Bush's claim that the country is more secure than it was when he took office. More importantly, Democrats must offer a clear, bold, and principled alternative strategy for advancing U.S. values and interests in a dangerous world if they are to refute Republican efforts to label them as untrustworthy on national security issues.

To that end, a distinguished group of 15 national security experts convened by the Progressive Policy Institute have drafted an important new document aimed at reconnecting Democrats with their proud tradition of muscular internationalism. Entitled "Progressive Internationalism: A Democratic National Security Strategy,"


"Progressive Internationalism" proposes a six-step national security agenda for the Democratic Party and for the United States:


Advance democracy abroad to make us safer at home: Arguing that America's power should serve our democratic ideals, the authors call for a new push for political and economic reforms in the greater Middle East, which has emerged as the world's most unstable and dangerous region. Their strategy for encouraging forces of reform and modernization in the region includes a new Middle East Trade Initiative to spur growth and development, new aid for governments that embrace openness and accountability, and a crash program to reduce America's dependence on oil.

Prevent terrorists and dangerous regimes from acquiring weapons of mass destruction: If during the Cold War we faced an arms race to build weapons, we are now in a race to keep them out of the wrong hands. Democrats would pursue a collective approach in dealing with the dangerous situation in North Korea by engaging the United Nations and North Korea's neighbors; and would focus on preventing the acquisition of weapons of mass destruction (WMD) through expansion of the successful Nunn-Lugar program, rather than relying on military preemption of the use of WMD.

Plug gaps in homeland defense: Democrats would bring an overdue sense of urgency to defending our homeland by creating America's first-ever domestic intelligence organization; offering state and local leaders useful guidance based on genuine threat assessment; merging terrorist watch lists and ensuring information sharing among law enforcement agencies; and by investing in resources to equip police, fire fighters and public health officials with the tools needed to protect their communities.

Transform the U.S. military and use it more effectively: Democrats would make room for investments to modernize and sustain America's military superiority into the future by dismantling obsolete Cold War infrastructure, working toward assuring the "information dominance" clearly necessary in dealing with today's threats, and making smarter use of American military power. They would also press for an expanded NATO peacekeeping mission in Afghanistan, and maintain a robust military presence in Iraq until security and stability have been achieved.

Reinvigorate America's strategic alliances: Democratic presidents have made America's strategic alliances a cornerstone of their foreign policy. Democrats still believe that our alliances are as important as ever. They intend not to abandon them, but to reorient them to new challenges by strengthening and reforming international institutions such as NATO, the United Nations, the international financial institutions, and the World Trade Organization.

Restore American global economic leadership: Democrats would revive U.S. leadership in the global economy by restoring the dynamism of the American economy through a rejection of the Bush administration's policies of fiscal recklessness; offering a fundamentally new approach to trade and economic relations with the Muslim world; renewing and expanding trade agreements and negotiations; and encouraging reform of multilateral lending institutions to tackle corruption and poverty more vigorously.

_____________________________________________________________________


I don't view the DLC's call for U.S. preeminence as anything akin to Bush's plan for world dominance. The Democratic policy is clearly a rejection of the unilateralism of the Bush regime. I don't think that just because they seek an assertive role in world affairs that they automatically represent the worse aspects of interventionism.

I am not open to broad claims of Kerry's intent as it relates to these DLC documents. I do feel that we can interpret his views on these issues in the context of his actual statements and actions. In that regard I don't think we can tie him to every word in the DLC manifesto. I fully expect John Kerry to form and promote his personal philosophy on these issues if he reaches a position of ultimate influence.

John Kerry Issues Page: Foreign Policy
http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/foreignpolicy

John Kerry on Foreign Policy:
http://www.issues2002.org/International/John_Kerry_Foreign_Policy.htm

Text of John Kerry Speech at GU on Foreign Policy
http://www.themoderntribune.com/john_kerry_-_presidential_candidate_-_ ...

John Kerry on VoteMatch
Supports multilateral cooperative internationalism; Progressive Internationalism
http://issues2002.org/John_Kerry_VoteMatch.htm
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Nicholas_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #19
46. Progressive internationalism
Edited on Sat Feb-14-04 08:49 PM by Nicholas_J
Progressive Internationalism: A Democratic National Security Strategy

Introduction

As Democrats, we are proud of our party's tradition of tough-minded internationalism and strong record in defending America. Presidents Woodrow Wilson, Franklin D. Roosevelt and Harry Truman led the United States to victory in two world wars and designed the post-war international institutions that have been a cornerstone of global security and prosperity ever since. President Truman forged democratic alliances such as NATO that eventually triumphed in the Cold War. President Kennedy epitomized America's commitment to "the survival and success of liberty." Jimmy Carter placed the defense of human rights at the center of our foreign policy. And Bill Clinton led the way in building a post-Cold War Europe whole, free, and at peace in a new partnership with Russia. Around the world the names of these Democratic statesmen elicit admiration and respect.

http://www.ndol.org/ndol_ci.cfm?kaid=124&subid=158&contentid=252144


Kerry's stance on this:

New Democrat: "Third Way" instead of left-right debate.


Kerry adopted Third Way principles of the Democratic Leadership Council:

America and the world have changed dramatically in the closing decades of the 20th century. The industrial order of the 20th century is rapidly yielding to the networked “New Economy” of the 21st century. Our political and governing systems, however, have lagged behind the rest of society in adapting to these seismic shifts. They remain stuck in the left-right debates and the top-down bureaucracies of the industrial past.

The Democratic Leadership Council, and its affiliated think tank the Progressive Policy Institute, have been catalysts for modernizing politics and government. The core principles and ideas of this “Third Way” movement Bill Clinton’s Presidential campaign in 1992, Tony Blair’s Labour Party in Britain in 1997, and Gerhard Shroeder’s Social Democrats in Germany in 1998.

The Third Way philosophy seeks to adapt enduring progressive values to the new challenges of he information age. It rests on three cornerstones:
the idea that government should promote equal opportunity for all while granting special privilege for none;
an ethic of mutual responsibility that equally rejects the politics of entitlement and the politics of social abandonment;
and, a new approach to governing that empowers citizens to act for themselves.
The Third Way approach to economic opportunity and security stresses technological innovation, competitive enterprise, and education rather than top- down redistribution or laissez faire. On questions of values, it embraces “tolerant traditionalism,” honoring traditional moral and family values while resisting attempts to impose them on others. It favors an enabling rather than a bureaucratic government, expanding choices for citizens, using market means to achieve public ends and encouraging civic and community institutions to play a larger role in public life. The Third Way works to build inclusive, multiethnic societies based on common allegiance

http://www.issues2000.org/2004/John_Kerry_Principles_+_Values.htm

Kerry was one of the authors and first signatories of the Hyde Park Declaration, in which the principles of Progressive Internationalism was laid out:

DLC | Key Document | August 1, 2000
The Hyde Park Declaration: A Statement of Principles and a Policy Agenda for the 21st Century


Publisher's Note: Last May, at the invitation of the Democratic Leadership Council, elected officials from across the country met at Franklin D. Roosevelt's estate in Hyde Park, N.Y. Their goal was to begin drafting a statement of New Democrat principles and a broad national policy agenda for the next decade. This manifesto, The Hyde Park Declaration, is the result of their work...

Promoting Peace and Security At Home and Abroad

1. Make America the "Safest Big Country" in the World


. Build a Public Consensus Supporting U.S. Global Leadership

The internationalist outlook that served America and the world so well during the second half of the 20th century is under attack from both ends of the political spectrum. As the left has gravitated toward protectionism, many on the right have reverted to "America First" isolationism. This collapse of the old Cold War consensus threatens America's ability to provide international leadership on both the economic and security fronts.

What's needed is a new foreign and security strategy for a new era. Our leaders should articulate a progressive internationalism based on the new realities of the Information Age: globalization, democracy, American pre-eminence, and the rise of a new array of threats ranging from regional and ethnic conflicts to the spread of missiles and biological, chemical, and nuclear weapons. This approach recognizes the need to revamp, while continuing to rely on, multilateral alliances that advance U.S. values and interests.

A strong, technologically superior defense is the foundation for U.S. global leadership. Yet the United States continues to employ defense strategies, military missions, and force structures left over from the Cold War, creating a defense establishment that is ill-prepared to meet new threats to our security. The United States must speed up the "revolution in military affairs" that uses our technological advantage to project force in many different contingencies involving uncertain and rapidly changing security threats -- including terrorism and information warfare. This also means undertaking a systematic overhaul of the military to create a force that is more flexible, integrated, and efficient.

http://www.ndol.org/ndol_ci.cfm?cp=5&kaid=128&subid=174&contentid=1926


John Kerry is the only one of the Democratic Candidates who signed any of the democratic party platform documents which established the concepts of progressive internationalism in opposition to the foreign policy concepts established by the Project for the New American Century. The entire policy of Progressive Internationalism was established in response to, and as a Democratic Party alternative to the neo-conservative and PNAC vision for the United States role in the interantional arena for the 21st Century.

The Hyde Park Declaration was authored and signed in August of 2000, and Kerry helped in the developing and supporting of the idea of progressive internationalism whild that document was being prepared, and when he signed it. It has been his stance certainly since that document was signed almost 4 years ago, and a stance he has held personally before he signed the document.

Many of the ideas that other candidate have been putting forth in this campaign are ideas that John Kerry was developing with other members of the democratic party not long after the 2000 elections put Bush and PNAC into power.



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ozone_man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 06:18 PM
Response to Original message
21. The silence is deafening.
Also the silence in regards to Kerry and "progressive internationalism". Where do all the Kerry supporters go when you ask them about this stuff. Reminds me of fiddler crabs (I didn't say cockroaches) running for their holes in the mud flats (amazing thing to see).

So how are we going to get 40,000 more soldiers in a few months? It seems like a draft is coming regardless of whether Bush or Kerry are in office.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. 40,000 troops and no draft ("attract people into the military" )
Edited on Sat Feb-14-04 06:34 PM by bigtree
MR. GRIFFITH: Senator Kerry, in a speech at Drake University, you said in your first 100 days you would move to increase our armed forces by as much as 40,000 troops. You said there was a dire need for two full divisions. I'm the parent of two teenage sons. I-we're patriots, and people are wondering right now about voluntary versus draft. And, as president, how do you hope to lure and attract quality people into the military? And, as a follow-up, where do you stand on the issue of the draft?

SEN. KERRY: We don't need a draft now, and I wouldn't be in favor of it under the current circumstances. But, look, the first place you start to attract people into the military is to have a president who can prove to America that that president will be responsible about how that president deploys the military. All across this country there are families right now-all of us have talked to them-who are suffering greatly, because the Guards and Reserves have been called up. They're overextended. The troops of the United States of America are overextended. Their deployments are too long. The families are hurting at home because they lose money from the private sector when they're called up, and they get paid less in the military, and nobody makes it up to them.

The fact is if we are going to maintain this level of commitment on a global basis-for the moment we have to, because of what's happened-we need an additional two divisions. One is a combat division, and one is a support division. And that's the responsible thing to do. I've also said, responsibly, that's temporary, because I intend to be a president who goes back to the United Nations, rejoins the community of nations, brings other boots on the ground to help us in the world, and reduces the overall need for deployment of American forces in the globe-and I mean North Korea, Germany and the rest of the world where we can begin to set up a new architecture of participation of other countries.

http://www.vote-smart.org/speech_detail.php?speech_id=M000027534&keyword=&phrase=a+draft&contain=
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 06:36 PM
Response to Reply #21
24. I'm a Kerry supporter. I am responding.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #21
28. Voting for Kuch
Edited on Sat Feb-14-04 07:03 PM by BeFree
But I will say this in defense of Kerry....Read what bigtree has linked too. Then think about this: If Kerry had voted against IWR, this fall, Rove could tell America that Kerry wanted Saddam to remain in power. Would be wrong, but doing so would drag a ton of votes away from JK. Rove can't say that about JK, now, can he?

While the IWR vote by JK could be labeled a political vote, it was still a very wise political vote. It has only pissed of 2%+ of the voters. And I'm one of those in the 2% bracket.

"Progressive internationalism". What's wrong with it? It's better than what we have now, right? Are you thinking America should become isolationist? That America should just bow out of the world scene? No more international affairs for America? Is that what you are suggesting?
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ozone_man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 07:27 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. "Progressive internationalism" is a kinder, gentler PNAC.
February 09, 2004
'It's Time to Get Over It'
John Kerry Tells Antiwar Movement to Move On

By Mark Hand

Researchers and investigative reporters are fascinated with the neoconservatives, that group of American empire peddlers who turned George W. Bush into a junkie war criminal. A similar group, the New Democrats, has been pushing its own dangerous brand of U.S. hegemony but with much less fanfare.

The leading mouthpiece for the New Democrats' radical interventionist program could be our next president. John Kerry, the frontrunner in the quest for the Democratic Party presidential nomination, has been promoting a foreign policy perspective called "progressive internationalism." It's a concept concocted by establishment Democrats seeking to convince potential backers in the corporate and political world that, if installed in the White House, they would preserve U.S. power and influence around the world, but in a kinder, gentler fashion than the current administration.

(more)

http://www.pressaction.com/pablog/archives/001294.html

Rove/Bush will be able to say, "John Kerry has voted for all of my important initiatives, the Iraq War, both Patriot Acts, No Child Left Behind. Do you want an immitation or the real thing. Coke or Pepsi, you decide". We all know that Coke is the real thing, and GWB is, well, Coke. ;-)
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 07:40 PM
Original message
Progressive internationalism is "compassionate" PNAC!
PPI has the same imperialist goals as PNAC. The only difference is that PPI offers us Caesar Augustus to replace PNAC's Caligula.

The counter to PNAC and PPI is to have a foreign policy that is driven by respect for international institutions and international law, and that is based on universal ethical and moral values.

Pax Christi USA Statement on War against Iraq

Pax Christi USA fundamentally challenges the Bush administration’s foreign policy doctrine. While the Bush doctrine says a strike on Iraq would extend “the benefits of freedom, democracy, prosperity and the rule of law,” waging a war on Iraq will instead tear apart the very seams of international security, opening the door to the establishment of policies based solely on regime change in sovereign states. Every nation that has ever practiced regime change as a policy has been condemned by history as an aggressor nation. Catholic Social Teaching, including principles of just war theory, is explicit in its rejection of all forms of aggression. Therefore Pax Christi USA finds the Bush administration’s policy of regime change both unwise and unjust and thoroughly incompatible with any criteria for establishing the basis for peace.

Pax Christi USA reaffirms the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops statement urging President Bush to seek alternative means to war with Iraq. We call on the U.S. Catholic community, and all U.S. citizens to oppose a new war with Iraq. As we prepare for the coming of the Christmas season, let us remember our commitment to work for justice in our world. “Here are my servants—my chosen ones in whom I delight. I have put my spirit upon them. And they will call the nations to justice.” (Isaiah 42:1-2)

http://www.paxchristiusa.org/news_statements_more.asp?id=317
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #29
33. What parts of this do you believe?
You push this article out here to back up your assertion that the DLC and PNAC are one and the same?!!

That cut and paste distortion is the biggest bunch of horseshit to come down the pike.

Nowhere does John Kerry or the DLC assert hegemony or dominance, alone or in concert with anyone, as their foreign policy. Just saying it don't make it so.

The policy as outlined by the DLC asserts U.S. preeminence, superiority, in world affairs, militarily and otherwise, not dominance. Good policy for the world's superpower. You may wish for some other country to achieve preeminence over America but I don't advocate that and neither do most Americans.

The DLC policy advocates achieving its aims through multilateral international cooperation, lessening our responsibilies abroad and ensuring that we aren't the lone wolf in world affairs that the Bush cabal has been.

And you also play into the distortions of the Bush cabal in equating their motivations and actions in relation to the IWR, NCLB, and the PA with those of Democrats like Kennedy, Harkin, and Wellstone.

Kennedy: voted for the PA and the NCLB

Harkin: voted for the IWR

Wellstone: voted for the PA
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ozone_man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #33
48. Nobody makes bad decisions all the time
but Kerry seems to be batting over 500, since Bush was in office. You failed to mention that Kennedy voted against IWR.

Go up to the post above you and see what IndianaGreen has to say about the difference between PNAC and PPI.
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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. Green needs to explain what the hell Pax Christii has to do with anything

His post is a factless, uninformed smear.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 07:55 PM
Response to Reply #29
34. Hey, kinder and gentler is good
And coke is bad. You still didn't answer the question. I will rephrase it: Do you think we should become isolated in world affairs?
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 09:32 PM
Response to Reply #34
54. The silence is deafening
The question: Should America return to a policy of isolation in world affairs?

The answer is:_________________________
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 09:42 PM
Response to Reply #54
55. Isolationism and being the world's bully are both wrong!
Our foreign policy must be governed by universal moral and ethical principles, and we must behave as a responsible and caring member of the family of nations.

Here is but one example. This one comes from the Catholic tradition:

The Church's Teaching on War and Peace

During the last decade, there has been increasing focus on the moral questions raised by the just-war tradition and its application to specific uses of force. We welcome this renewed attention and hope our own efforts have contributed to this dialogue. We also recognize that the application of these principles requires the exercise of the virtue of prudence; people of good will may differ on specific conclusions. The just-war tradition is not a weapon to be used to justify a political conclusion or a set of mechanical criteria that automatically yields a simple answer, but a way of moral reasoning to discern the ethical limits of action. Policy-makers, advocates and opponents of the use of force need to be careful not to apply the tradition selectively, simply to justify their own positions. Likewise, any application of just-war principles depends on the availability of accurate information not easily obtained in the pressured political context in which such choices must be made.

The just-war tradition has attained growing influence on political deliberations on the use of force and in some forms of military training. Just-war norms helped shape public debate prior to the Gulf War. In addition, the military's call for civilian leaders to define carefully objectives for the use of force is in keeping with the spirit of the tradition. At the same time, some contemporary strategies and practices seem to raise serious questions when seen in the light of strict just-war analysis.

For example, strategies calling for use of overwhelming and decisive force can raise issues of proportionality and discrimination. Strategies and tactics that lead to avoidable casualties are inconsistent with the underlying intention of the just-war tradition of limiting the destructiveness of armed conflict. Efforts to reduce the risk to a nation's own forces must be limited by careful judgments of military necessity so as not to neglect the rights of civilians and armed adversaries.

In light of the preeminent place of air power in today's military doctrine, more reflection is needed on how traditional ethical restraints should be applied to the use of air forces. For example, the targeting of civilian infrastructure, which afflicts ordinary citizens long after hostilities have ceased, can amount to making war on noncombatants rather than against opposing armies. Fifty years after Coventry, Dresden, Hamburg, Hiroshima and Nagasaki, ways must be found to apply standards of proportionality and noncombatant immunity in a meaningful way to air warfare.

http://www.usccb.org/sdwp/harvestexr.htm#c
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 06:42 PM
Response to Original message
26. Political Strategy... Kerry doesn't say war is wrong Bush can't attack him
Saying that he's weak on terror. Kerry gets to attack him on his mis-management of the war making Bush weak on terror.
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quaker bill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #26
31. I have a problem with this
Because the truth is that the war was wrong. Beyond that Bush captured Saddam "making america safer" in the process according to Kerry. I will bet Bush will come up with Osama before the summer is over. "mission accomplished"

If the concept of going to war in the first place is OK, on what dimension did Bush mismanage it? Do you think a friendlier multi-national bombing and invasion would have gone down better?

It would have been nicer to talk about at tea parties, but it probably would have felt just about the same to the Iraqi resistance.

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bigtree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #31
36. Multilateralism as mandated by the IWR was working until Bush pushed ahead

Inspectors were allowed back in by Saddam, likely prodded by the threat of force implied in the resolution. Hans Blix was well on his way to resolving the stand down when Bush pushed ahead, forced them out, and invaded.
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #31
38. Actually...
If the UN et al, had been involved, there may have never been the Shock and Awe bombing. There may have never been an invasion on the scale we saw. The concept that was proposed in the IWR was that full involvement of the UN desired, a new resolution in the UN was to be adopted, and war would be a last resort, if, and only if Iraq could not be disarmed.

The UN was snubbed, no new resolution was adopted, and even tho the UN was sure that Iraq had no WMD, * pulled the trigger, not as a last resort but as pre-meditated murder. He did not follow the IWR as adopted by Congress. If half of Congress had the balls JK has, * would have been impeached already.

Politically speaking, JK voting for IWR was a smart move and gave * just enough rope to hang himself. No one can say JK didn't vote to get rid of WMD and Saddam Hussien, or for the terrorists. Smart.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 08:33 PM
Response to Reply #38
45. What's so smart about 539 dead and 3040 wounded GIs
and at least 10,000 dead and wounded Iraqis?

From a religious point of view, there is total failure in here!
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 08:53 PM
Response to Reply #45
47. Indefensible, those deaths
And I firmly believe that if JK thought his vote would be the difference between them living and dieing, he would vote for life.

As it stands, he has a real chance to pull America out of that mess, and in so doing, save maybe millions of others lives.

Yes, a lot can ride on one vote. But the real reason all those deaths occurred as they did can be laid at the feet of one man -- GWB.

As you know, I do not support the invasion of Iraq. I want the troops brought home now. Unfortunately I am not in a position of power to make that happen. Neither is JK. But, damn, he may have that chance, and, I believe, given the chance, JK will end that mess.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #47
50. I fear that Kerry will "Vietnamize" Iraq as Bush is trying to do
Iraq is so FUBAR because the alternative to Saddam, or someone like him, is either an Islamic Republic run by the majority Shias or civil war. Neither choice will be acceptable to the Washington establishment, regardless of which Bonesman gets elected in November.

There will be tremendous pressure to keep the troops in Iraq to prevent either outcome, and to give enough time for an American-friendly regime to consolidate power, and the only way to do that is by having in Iraq a pro-US military and police that is able to keep control over the population. This is doomed to failure!
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BeFree Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 09:28 PM
Response to Reply #50
52. Your fear is grounded
We KNOW * will screw around untill all hell breaks loose. We can, at this point, only hope that whomever is the next prez will be able to fix the situation in a way that leaves Iraq in far better shape.

Still, the argument is about whether JK's vote was the straw that broke the camels back, to use that old metaphor. I know we disagree on what degree he is responsible, but we do agree that the situation is a clusterfuck, and we need assurance that it will be remedied.

Short of Kuch getting elected, the next best option for that remedy is JK. I promise I will do what I can to see it through, and hope to hell that JK, if elected, will live up to my expectations. And that's that.

Peace
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Padraig18 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 07:42 PM
Response to Original message
32. No, he never has. n/t
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anti-NAFTA Donating Member (900 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 07:59 PM
Response to Original message
35. No, he hasn't. And I would like to add that
although this issue doesn't matter as much as trade does to me, we need to unite under a candidate to get a nominee other than Kerry. Kerry is both pro-freetrade and pro-IWR. These are the two most important issues. We can't have a candidate who has voted the way he has on both.
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snoochie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 09:12 PM
Response to Original message
51. No, because he DOESN'T think it was wrong!
Edited on Sat Feb-14-04 09:13 PM by snoochie
Statement of Senator John Kerry Regarding President Bush's Announcement on Iraq 03/18/2003

"I find myself angered, saddened and dismayed by the situation in which this nation finds itself tonight. As the world's sole superpower in an increasingly hostile and dangerous world, our government's obligation to protect the security of the United States and the law abiding nations of the world could not be more clear, particularly in the aftermath of September 11.

Yet the Administration's handling of the run up to war with Iraq could not possibly have been more inept or self-defeating. President Bush has clumsily and arrogantly squandered the post 9/11 support and goodwill of the entire civilized world in a manner that will make the jobs ahead of us -- both the military defeat and the rebuilding of Iraq -- decidedly more expensive in every sense of that word.

Even having botched the diplomacy, it is the duty of any President, in the final analysis, to defend this nation and dispel the security threats - threats both immediate and longer term - against it. Saddam Hussein has brought military action upon himself by refusing for twelve years to comply with the mandates of the United Nations. The brave and capable men and women of our armed forces and those who are with us will quickly, I know, remove him once and for all as a threat to his neighbors, to the world, and to his own people, and I support their doing so.

My strong personal preference would have been for the Administration -- like the Administration of George Bush, Sr. -- to have given diplomacy more time, more commitment, a real chance of success. In my estimation, giving the world thirty additional days for additional real multilateral coalition building -- a real summit, not a five hour flyby with most of the world's powers excluded -- would have been prudent and no impediment to our military situation, an assessment with which our top military brass apparently agree. Unfortunately, that is an option that has been disregarded by President Bush."



This is absolutely horrible. He is saying he, like Bush, thinks that Saddam forced our hand via their thwarting UN Security Council resolutions. In this statement he states that his only problem with bush's handling of the situation is that he didn't give the world another 30 days to form a better gang of bullies to go take their oil.

This, combined with his echoing of the WMD threat lies that bush was hawking and his war to give bush cover for his illegal war, is just indefensible.

Didn't he also state that an imminent threat doesn't need to exist to justify invasion? I thought I saw that but can't quite remember if it was Kerry himself or someone from the PPI.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-04 09:30 PM
Response to Reply #51
53. Kerry said that Saddam tried to kill Bush's daddy & supported terrorists
Here is the actual quote from Kerry's statement on March 18, 2003:

"(Saddam) conspired to assassinate the former President of the United States, and provided harbor and support to terrorists bent on destroying us and our friends."

http://www.vote-smart.org/speech_detail.php?speech_id=M000003667&keywo

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