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Hawkeye-X Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 01:42 AM
Original message
Clark - One issue man.
I am convinced that Clark is a one issue man, and that is being better in the foreign policy department. He has virtually no experience elsewhere. I support Dean because he has answered more than one issue, and these issues are what will finish Chimpy.

Am I wrong?

Hawkeye-X
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 01:46 AM
Response to Original message
1. Ya know...
I'm close to 5,000 posts here. Not a single ONE of them was a new thread attacking ANY candidate.

But if I DID start one, it would have a helluva lot more substance than this one. I hope you're proud.
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Hawkeye-X Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 01:51 AM
Response to Reply #1
9. I wasn't even attacking...
Just pointing out the obvious.
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mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 03:10 AM
Response to Reply #9
30. It's not "obvious"
Clark has many detailed positions on his website.

What is obvious is the need to remove that god-awful huge black spot on your sigline. That's obviously distracting and annoying.
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #30
55. Thanks for that reply
I know your not supporting Clark, but its nice to see a supporter of another candidate call a spade a spade.
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Clark Can WIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 05:59 AM
Response to Reply #9
38. I suppose I am not attacking when I say Dean sucks because of his
hypocrisy, misrepresentation and flip-flop waffles, even though they are obvious.
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mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 07:44 AM
Response to Reply #38
45. The phrase "Dean sucks" betrays attack just a wee bit
Edited on Sun Dec-28-03 07:44 AM by mouse7
When you use the phrase "Dean sucks" in a post, it's really tough to make an argument what you are posting isn't an attack.

Funny how that works.
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Melinda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 01:47 AM
Response to Original message
2. Mr. one-issue MILITARY man. All he knows is war.
No war for me, thanks.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 01:48 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
bhunt70 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 01:49 AM
Response to Reply #2
7. so are you just against him because he was in the military?
I thought the democratic party was a party of inclusion, not prejudice.
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neverforget Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 01:50 AM
Response to Reply #2
8. That's all George Washington knew too.
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SahaleArm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 01:55 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. He was also bad according certain people...
They also think we should have never gone to war with the Birtish empire.
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Scott Lee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #8
47. he had wooden teeth and farted in public.
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bhunt70 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 01:47 AM
Response to Original message
3. yes you are wrong.
check here for his issues...

http://clark04.com/issues/

It's true that the media and debates seems to target clark for the international questions more than domestic ones, but he has been able to expand upon his domestic ideas in other venues. In my opinion his views on those issues are stronger than his military ones, atleast thats what got me to give him a good look.
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dfong63 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 01:59 AM
Response to Reply #3
15. Clark may have "views" on those areas -

In my opinion his views on those issues are stronger than his military ones,

so what? Clark may have "strong views", but he doesn't have the experience to validate them. the other candidates have "strong views" on foreign policy, too.
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bhunt70 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 02:02 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. and I've never called their views into question on those matters either.
there's a search button...use it.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 01:48 AM
Response to Original message
4. One issue - he can win
That's the only issue I care about. Kerry or Clark can win. Dean can't. That's all.
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dfong63 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 01:56 AM
Response to Reply #4
12. nice argument, except for a little thing called "reality"
Dean is demolishing both Kerry and Clark in IA and NH, and is competitive if not leading in a bunch of other states, even in the south where the Clark worshippers were saying Dean had no chance. the whole mantra of Dean being "unelectable" is just wishful thinking on the part of the rival candidates. the SEIU, AFSCME, IUPAT, Al Gore, many other endorsers say you're dead wrong about Dean being "unelectable".
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SahaleArm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 01:58 AM
Response to Reply #12
13. Bush beats Dean in a landslide - That's reality n/t
Edited on Sun Dec-28-03 01:58 AM by SahaleArm
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RUMMYisFROSTED Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 02:44 AM
Response to Reply #13
24. That's reality?
Who's going to win the sixth race at Pimlico?

Make me a believer.
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bhunt70 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 02:49 AM
Response to Reply #24
25. Fision in the #2 spot will win the 6th race.
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mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 03:15 AM
Response to Reply #13
32. Show me the evidence
Edited on Sun Dec-28-03 03:15 AM by mouse7
Did you take Marty McFly's Delorean back to the future to get a newspaper you can prove to me that Dean cannot beat Dumbya?

No?

Then don't make silly "reality" statements.
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CTLawGuy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 11:55 AM
Original message
haha
Edited on Sun Dec-28-03 11:58 AM by darboy
what do you have a crystal ball?

or are you thinking of WWII War Hero, and Distinguished Flying Cross winner , George McGovern's crushing defeat at the hands of Nixon??

Note: this is a reply to Post 4
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mikehiggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 02:21 AM
Response to Reply #12
19. Yeah, I was counting all those votes that got cast
I guess you're right.
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sandnsea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 03:31 AM
Response to Reply #12
34. No, Democrats are demolishing Dean
At the end of the day, Dean won't win this nomination. There are still more people who ARE NOT on the Dean bandwagon than those who are. There are still more union voters in Iowa who ARE NOT voting for Dean than those who are.

Whatever split there is in the main Democratic Party is there. So be it. As far as I'm concerned, the Al Gore type people don't see Bush as the kind of monstrous threat he is either or they wouldn't choose THIS time to play political games.

Dean can't win. After all his money, media attention, Al Gore, unions; he still only gets 25% of Democrats nationwide. We don't even want him. How do you honestly expect Dean to win a majority of Americans when he hasn't even won a majority of Democrats with every advantage going for him?
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Scoopie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 03:59 AM
Response to Reply #12
35. hahahahaha
Death is believing your own press.
Polls are dirt.
Winning the nomination doesn't mean you'll win election.
The South can't stand Dean!
THICK SKULLS ALL!
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #12
56. I am surprised
that Dean "seems" to be getting good support in the South from Democrats.

Shame that his supporters will be horribly outnumbered in the general election though.
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mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 03:13 AM
Response to Reply #4
31. ah-nold can win... so can dumbya
There's obviously additional requirements beyond the ability to win.
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karlschneider Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 06:32 PM
Response to Reply #4
66. I don't think Kerry can either. We are forgetting the GENERAL election.
Dean, as correct as he is on most every position can't beat Shrub. It's that simple. And Kerry is seen by many as too dour. I don't like it any more than anybody else does, the average voter cares more about appearances than substance. And that's what getting * out is gonna require.
:eyes:
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neverforget Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 01:49 AM
Response to Original message
6. And unfortunately we live in a different world where foreign policy
and national security matters more than it did in 2000. The Democratic base may love Dean but that will not be enough to win the General Election. If Dean wins the nomination, I will vote for him but my gut tells me he won't win unless the economy takes a serious nosedive. And to that I say "Hope is not a plan."
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SahaleArm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 01:52 AM
Response to Original message
10. As SACEUR he was in control of a $10+ billion dollar budget
Edited on Sun Dec-28-03 01:55 AM by SahaleArm
He was in an executive position within the Military in charge of 244,000 soldiers and their families. Went to congress to get more money for education, healthcare, and housing. Helped rework the education system to include HeadStart. Worked foreign relations at the highest levels including the Dayton Accords and other Serbian talks. Led the Kosovo campaign in 1999 to depose Milosevic. Prior to that he worked at the Office of Budget and Management in the Whitehouse. Has worked in various capacities in the private sector the past three years. So the answer is no.
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floridaguy Donating Member (751 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 01:58 AM
Response to Reply #10
14. America would be lucky to have Clark as President

I just hope we're smart enough to elect him.

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DIBL Donating Member (74 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 02:29 AM
Response to Reply #10
21. When I read a quote like the following one
I know we are dealing with someone extraordinary.

"Major Clark is the most able White House Fellow I have known during my seven years in Washington...He brought to his work a brilliant mind and rare common sense. He has initiative, style, imagination, moral courage, and integrity-each in extraordinary degree...He has a rare sensitivity to others and a remarkable ability to motivate and lead them....He is totally dedicated to public service as a military officer."
-James T. Lynn, Director, Office of Management and Budget, July 8, 1976

I also hope we make the right choice. People like Clark rarely come along more than once in a lifetime.
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shivaji Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 02:10 AM
Response to Original message
17. Since when the dem party became enamored of Military Generals?
Can any one name the last democrat general we nominated?

Clark's so called foreign policy experience is limited to bombing thousands of innocent people in Kosovo from 35,000 feet. It's the biggest joke of the year.

Are you guys like total dreamers to think Clark is going to steal votes from the repugs since he has military background? I guess y'all have forgotten president Truman's wise words "given a choice between a republican and republican lite, they will vote the republican everytime".

But that aside, my biggest worry about Clark is that he is totally inexperienced politician. Has never ran for an election in his entire life. Never ran a campaign even for a dog catcher. And what makes any one thinks he can take on the Rove machine and the Bush* fund raising juggernaut? Heck he is lagging behind Dean 10% to 30% in national polls. Is Clark suddenly vault to the top? Dream on!!

Go with a proven winner. Dean has NEVER LOST AN ELECTION AND WON SIX TIMES. He is battle toughened and a tough fighter. He is our best hope to take on Bush*.
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bhunt70 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 02:16 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. I'm enamored of my grandfather
Edited on Sun Dec-28-03 02:19 AM by bhunt70
an 89 year old career military man who is a lifelong democrat and staunch critic of republicans.

It's not so hard to believe that a military man can have values that a democrat can look up to.

look beyond the uniform and let go of prejudice. Clark could be a general, a butcher, or a widget maker from pensacola and I would still consider him a good man and a good democrat.

edit for second part

Clark may have not run for any elections but you don't get to be a general of his level without knowing how to utilize the system around you, deal with people, and "get in". He may not have been voted into his position by the masses but there is an incredible amount of politics to get where he has. He's a smart fellow and he seems adaptable to many situations, with that in mind I think he's a good choice.
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bushclipper Donating Member (297 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 11:43 AM
Response to Reply #17
48. !!! The Democratic party tried to draft Eisenhower !!!
Dwight Eisenhower was president of Columbia University in New York City in the early 1950s, when both Republicans and Democrats wooed him to run for president. In fact, biographer Geoffrey Perret says that as early as 1948, President Truman even offered to become Vice-President if Eisenhower would accept the Democratic Party's nomination. But, in 1952, Eisenhower decided to run for the presidency as a Republican.

http://www.familyhaven.com/books/eisenhower.html

So there is one general the Democrats were enamored with...
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MidwestMomma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #17
52. I don't think anyone in the party is 'enamoured' of Military Generals
In fact, I think Clark's military career is one thing holding some Dems back from throwing their support 100% behind Gen Clark even though they think he would be a good President.

But I think in the end they will come to the conclusion that he will be a brilliant candidate against the W and throw their support behind them. I think that will be the reason we will see Clark surging from behind at some point even though he trails now is because a lot of Dems have not come to terms with his military background.

Please do not think I am saying the military is bad and all in the military is bad. It's just historically, we Dems have had a lot of bad feelings for the military because they are the instrument of war and we don't like war. But what has evolved over the years for me personally is as I said above, the military is the instrument of war. Is it the people in the militarys fault that they are played badly?

My daughter pointed out to me that if we are going to part of the global community, then sometimes we have to be a part of military operations in support of our allies whether we like it or not. I'm still thinking about that one.

Probably not explaining this very well. Just trying to share some of the personal evolution I've gone through since growing up in the 1960's and my ever-changing feelings about war and the military. My point being that perhaps others are going through the same thought processes too.
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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #52
57. You explained it perfectly, nice post. n/t
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mikehiggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 02:23 AM
Response to Original message
20. Yeah, you are but that's okay
I could make all sorts of snippy comments here but its late and the day wanes and the voting nears.

All of this nonsense should die a quiet death until we know who the nominee is going to be.


There is no one left on DU to persuade.

Good luck
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Code_Name_D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 02:32 AM
Response to Original message
22. I call Clark the "Panacea Man"
Because of all of these issues I hear being touted, it seems to be the empty rhetoric that truly gets the loudest applause from the Clark supporters. Every day, I hear they say "he would be such a good president" or that he would "cream" Bush in a debate. But very rarely have I ever heard any Clark supporter voice any concern at all about the day after the election. They have nothing should Clark lose, and nothing should Clark win. I suspect that one way or the other, the Clark supporters shall all retreat into there hibernate state on November 18th. And the power behind the GOP, shall remain uncontested.

Faith shall not save you. Blind faith least of all.
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bhunt70 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 02:33 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. sorry you've have a hard time seeing the plan.
its pretty well laid out...

http://clark04.com/issues/
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Code_Name_D Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #23
46. And he throws me a link, as if I am a child.
Edited on Sun Dec-28-03 11:37 AM by Code_Name_D
I find inteligences repeatedly insulted by these Clark suporters. I have read this link a thousand times. And not once has it addressed the issues I find to be inportant. Not once have I found any mesure of hope that Clark intentds to return America to Americans. What I find, is Clark wishing to take Bush's place. He has already begun to demand lolty amung hus subjects, loilty to be inforced by "his suporters."

I am not a child, Sir. I know what Clark is about. And I refuse to be used as a pawn in the power gaim. Persons such as yourself only posese the power to lie to me, but you no longer have the power to deceave me.
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bhunt70 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #46
51. what issue do you think is important...I will try to help you.
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eileen from OH Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 02:52 AM
Response to Original message
26. Yes, you are wrong.
And I'm a Dean supporter. Do the research, check out Clark's website, etc.

There is SO much more to Clark's candidacy than foreign policy. Just as there is SO much more to any of our candidate's positions that can be summarized in a sound byte, or be "capsulized" by a pundit.

You owe it yourself to read and find out why you support Dean VS Clark. I have and know where and why I come down on the Dean side, but to dismiss Clark as a one-issue candidate is ignoring a helluva lot of stuff and incredibly unfair to Clark.

eileen from OH

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roguevalley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 03:03 AM
Response to Original message
27. Then you haven't read his platforms and positions. Good grief.
That could be said about ALL of them, one issue stuff.
Read more and then tell me what you think. Honestly. I
think we better brew our next candidates out of a test
tube because they are either going to have to have
'acceptable' past careers or none at all.
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mouse7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 03:07 AM
Response to Original message
28. Clark has good stands on many issues
Edited on Sun Dec-28-03 03:18 AM by mouse7
Check his website. It has an issues section. I don't have the link, but have a feeling someone will be around to post it momentarily.
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isbister Donating Member (902 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 03:09 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. Re: Clark has good stands on many issues
I read Clark's stances on Kerry's site before he even got into the campaign.

http://www.kerry.com
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 03:19 AM
Response to Reply #29
33. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Clark Can WIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 06:34 AM
Response to Reply #33
39. That is a fucking ugly, small and irrisponsible
offensive piece of pure shit you have posted.

Ever think about persons who have lost family members to suicide? Are you intentionally insensitive?

Way to promote your candidate.
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Clark Can WIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 06:37 AM
Response to Reply #39
40. You don't deserve
to have a Clark sig. IMO. Unless you apologize.
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SahaleArm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 06:40 AM
Response to Reply #40
41. OK I apalogize - It was from fark
Edited on Sun Dec-28-03 06:43 AM by SahaleArm
And Kerry is my number 2 choice ;) The thread made me do it.
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Clark Can WIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 06:53 AM
Response to Reply #41
42. OK. I didn't mean to over react or come off like a hard ass but
I've known 3 families touched by suicide and found that photosimulation in poor taste.
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SahaleArm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 06:56 AM
Response to Reply #42
43. Agree, it was in bad taste n/t
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Scoopie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 04:01 AM
Response to Original message
36. BTW
What's Dean's issue?
"I've got the power?"
No shit, Sherlock. I've known that since 3rd-grade civics!
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Clark Can WIN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 05:37 AM
Response to Original message
37. one word answer
Edited on Sun Dec-28-03 05:38 AM by Clark Can WIN
yes.

(you are WRONG) Convenient for your allegiance, but WRONG.
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Dianne Maire Donating Member (11 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 07:34 AM
Response to Original message
44. Clark much more than a 1 issue man
WESLEY K. CLARK

Former NATO Supreme Allied Commander

Exclusive Representation by Greater Talent Network

Wes Clark, former Supreme Allied Commander of Europe, is the nation's most highly decorated military officer since General Dwight D. Eisenhower. His leadership experiences have taken him from Vietnam to Latin America and ultimately to the position of NATO's Supreme Allied Commander, where he was the first man to lead NATO forces in an international campaign. Clark commanded all NATO forces to success in the important and controversial Kosovo conflict without a single Allied casualty. He has also been a leader in developing international military and security strategy in Europe, Latin America, the Caribbean and Africa, as well as one of the technology pioneers who helped guide the Army into digital technology.

Now retired, Clark is a consultant for Stephens Group, Inc., an investment-banking firm founded in 1933. In this position Clark will serve to develop emerging-technology companies and bring them to the marketplace. He was also recently presented with the Presidential Medal of Freedom, the nation's highest civilian honor, for his outstanding leadership and service in the Kosovo conflict.

As American business is increasingly sustained by the global market, international political and military strategy occupies a role of vital significance. With a career that includes powerful positions in Latin America and Europe, Clark has been on the front lines of the world's emerging markets, intimately aware of the political strategy and psychology that dictates corporate bottom lines. Applying his experience and skills in strategic leadership, high technology, training and organizational development to the challenges facing the corporate world, he offers a singularly informed and dynamic view of leadership based on honor, conviction and action.
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gulliver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 11:52 AM
Response to Original message
49. You are way wrong.
Clark is probably the only candidate who can deliver the national security and foreign policy issues to Democrats in the general election. Somehow that is a bad thing?

Clark is also strong on all of the other Democratic issues, much stronger than Dean. The reason is that presidential elections hinge on the candidate as a person just as much as they do on the issues. Clark has solid gold credentials. He brings himself to all Democratic issues, and that makes those issues strong.

A lot of people who would not even listen to Dean would listen to (and be persuaded by) Clark. Clark's life commands attention.
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bushclipper Donating Member (297 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 11:54 AM
Response to Original message
50. Post #17: Since when the dem party became enamored of Military Generals?
Just wanted to draw attention to my reply to this as a matter of fact and reference.

Dwight Eisenhower was president of Columbia University in New York City in the early 1950s, when both Republicans and Democrats wooed him to run for president. In fact, biographer Geoffrey Perret says that as early as 1948, President Truman even offered to become Vice-President if Eisenhower would accept the Democratic Party's nomination.

http://www.familyhaven.com/books/eisenhower.html

Both parties have always wanted veterens and war heroes on their tickets.

Don't fool yourself in thinking the Democrats haven't.


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mikehiggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #50
63. Wasn't there a lot of discussion over Colin Powell?
Whether he might be a democrat and maybe run with Gore or at least in the Democratic primary?
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John_H Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 12:14 PM
Response to Original message
53. yes, you're wrong. But assuming you're right.
Clark's one issue takes away Chimp's one issue--the one that will be used to beat Dean by ten points.
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Justice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 01:08 PM
Response to Original message
54. Foreign Policy is A Major Issue - So Great That Clark is A Leader In It
You say foreign policy like it is one issue out of 1000 - when foreign policy is a MAJOR issue in this election - probably 50% of the total. So having someone with such significant on the ground experience in foreign policy is HUGE.

Clark has lots of experience governing tens of thousand of poeple, managing budgets and oh yeah, negotiating with countries around the world.

I'll stand behind Clark any day.



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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 01:23 PM
Response to Original message
58. Ridiculous
We know you support Dean, and we know you have no problem misrepresenting Clark's record and his policy platform and his ability to also garner a grassroots movement.
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shivaji Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 01:34 PM
Response to Original message
59. If Clark is the nominee, I predict record base voters staying home
Let's say the delusionary assumption of Clark supporters is true, and that some republicans switch to Clark. But after seeing Rove commercials of Clark praising Bush, Rummy, Condi, Cheney and the gang, and when Rove shows facts and figures on screen about Clark backing republican policies 25 times longer than democrat policies, our worst nightmare will come true, which is that our base voters will lose all energy. They will not drag their butt to the voting booth or make the trip to the post-office to mail their ballot and spend the postage stamps.

Here is my prediction: Clark will lose atleast 10 states which Gore won in 2000, and win none which Bush won in 2000. If not, I will eat my hat.

With Dean as nominee, the base will be energized as much as with Gore if not nore, and Dean will get independent/centrist voters who are for balanced budgets, pro-2nd amendment and non-intrusive military adventures.
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MidwestMomma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 01:38 PM
Response to Reply #59
60. If by 'base voters' you mean Dean supporters
Guess only you and yours can know that.
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #60
67. Nope- not Dean supporters but real live Dem Progressives & Liberals
I don't support Dean because I don't trust his populist rhetoric and see him as a fast-talking Centrist but I would vote for him if he won the nomination.

Clark? No way. The more I research him because of all the spin his supporters bring here, the more utterly repugnant I find him.

I can assure you that millions of war protesters will NOT vote for a man with such alarming baggage who was praising Bush and the entire PNAC crowd as late as March 2003 when we were already out in the streets protesting. Millions of us are not going to fall for the line that this brilliant Rhodes scholar didn't notice how evil they were until after March 2003 and has, since then, undergone such a stunning metamorphosis that we should trust the DLC (hah!) and give him the Presidency.

The PNAC agenda is wars, wars, and more wars. Terror in OUR land. Global domination and that is exactly what Clark has singed up for under the pretext of fighting terrorism.

Our Imperial Agenda - be it with Democrats or Republicans The Empire is dying and both parties have recognized this. The problem is neither has a plan other than war and exploitation

Finally, many of our fellow citizens are waking up and refusing to believe the rosy scenarios painted for us and the outright lies fed to us. We must not continue to march down a ruinous path of perpetual war and face the inevitable anti-American backlash that war will create. We need the courage to stand up to a reckless administration in Washington and demand an end to ceaseless interventions.
Instead of calling for a new American century of military conquest and control, we must begin a project for a new century that is a truly international century based on cooperation rather than conflict. We should begin with the simple and not terribly radical step of rejecting the neo-conservative doctrine of pre-emptive warfare as the new centerpiece of our foreign policy.

The best time to resist is not years from now when war and occupation have already taken a tremendous human toll both home and abroad. The time to stand up and resist the neo-conservative military agenda is today—before the body count rises any higher. The risks that we now face as a nation will only multiply exponentially if we fail to curtail the ambitions of our leaders at this early stage. We must apply the brakes with uncompromising vigor because the White House has both feet on the accelerator and is steering us toward decades of disaster. Rarely, if ever, have the costs of inaction been greater. We can’t afford to appease the White House today, or we will face crisis after crisis for years to come. We must continue to resist this war and occupation and work to prevent the realization of the neo-conservative blueprint for global domination.


http://peaceworks.missouri.org/monitor/2003/augsept/pnac.htm

For more about the Project for a New American Century, see the DU PNAC Archive

George Bush is NOT my enemy! My enemy is the people behind Bush!! And those are the same people with whom Clark has been in bed for decades.

=====
Clark resigned as managing director of merchant banking for the Stephens Group Inc. in March 2003 after a 3 year stint there before going on to CNN when he was already examining running for President.

Gen. Wesley Clark Resigns From Stephens
ArkansasBusiness.com | February 28, 2003
http://bellaciao.org/en/article.php3?id_article=377

He resigned from Acxiom AFTER the scandal broke about Acxiom selling the information about Jet Blue's passengers to HomeLand Security.

He still serves, or WAS until very recent resignations because these involvements do NOT sit well with Democrat voters, on the boards of directors of

Sirva Inc. of Westmont, Ill.
privately held Time Domain Inc. of Huntsville, Ala.
Messer-Griesheim
Entrust Inc., an Addison, Texas, (Internet-security company),
Time Domain Corp. (a Huntsville, Ala., advanced wireless-technology company)
WaveCrest Laboratories (closely linked with US Military & Industrial Complex) (think he's the Chairman there)

Also is Senior Advisor for the Center for Strategic International Studies
http://csis.org/scholars/alpha.htm#c http://www.csis.org/

Those are the ones that are talked about. Untalked about are these:

National Endowment for Democracy (currently implicated in the Venezuelan Coup Scandal for having financed the oppostition to Hugo Chavez) which Ronald Reagan started in the early 1980s to promote American values abroad. Also on the board Frank Carlucci, Carlyle fame, Morton Abramowitz, Vin Weber, Evan Bayh http://www.ned.org/about/who.html

Markle Foundation Task Force on National Security in the Information Age http://www.markletaskforce.org/bios.html (Scary group with intimate ties to the Saban Center (Daniel Pipes)

trustee of the International Crisis Group http://www.intl-crisis-group.org/home/index.cfm

Anyway this article from the Wall Street Journal covers a few of those boards:

Pentagon Ties Boost Clark's Business
Retired General Helps Firms Navigate Homeland Security and Defense-Procurement Maze By Jacob M. Schlesinger and Sara Schaefer in Washington and Greg Hitt in Little Rock,Ark.

Wall Street Journal, 9/18/03

IN ANNOUNCING his presidential campaign, Wesley K. Clark promoted himself as the candidate best qualified to prosecute the war on terror. As a businessman, he has applied his military expertise to help a handful of high-tech companies try to profit from the fight. Since retiring from a 34-year Army career in 2000, Gen. Clark has become : chairman of a suburban Washington technology-corridor start-up, managing director at an investment firm, a director at four other firms around the country and an advisory-board member for two others. For most, he was hired to help boost the companies' military business.

http://bellaciao.org/en/article.php3?id_article=377


Yes we are being bamboozled BIG TIME, but it's not in the Dean campaign.

Who so well represented corporate interests when he waged an obscene, illegal war agaist Serbia because it stood in the way of the West's grand scheme to integrate the Balkans into an economic model in which the region's economies would be subordinated to Western corporate interests. Who bombed and destroyed the entire country so Soros and his friends could get their hands on the socially owned firms that belonged to the people of Serbia?

Which candidate is being pushed on us by the DLC, well known for and very open about the corporate ties and interests?



economic blockade, debt interest elevation, "liberalisation" of neighbourhood economics, exploitation of compradore, separatist, terrorist and illicit drug-traffickers, cluster bombs and depleted uranium coated shells, to achieve their war objectives

Clark sat on the board of some of the world's most dangerous corporations while he was making his stunning journey from Republican friend of the neo-cons to the recent metamorphosis into a Democrat.

These companies and George Soros, Carlyle Group, don't represent transnational corporate interests. This is a much bigger danger than Dean's medium-level pandering to a few corporations.


Stephens Group Inc. (BCCI fame)

Acxiom (the company was recently caught selling information about Jet Blue's passengers to HomeLand Security and for whom Clark was quite a lobbyist)

Sirva Inc. with its wholly owned company SIRVA Relocation that has as its main function in over one hundred countries, the relocation of entire firms and industries overseas
Time Domain Inc. and its invasive RadarVision through-wall radar
Messer-Griesheim
Entrust Inc. (whose CEO is co-chair of the Corporate Governance Task Force and works with Homeland Security)
Time Domain Corp. (a Huntsville, Ala., advanced wireless-technology company)
WaveCrest Laboratories (Green but emphasis is on marketing to the military and law enforcement) because "there are lots of places like tight alleys in urban areas where you don't want to be in a Humvee, which is big and noisy," said General Clark, the company's chairman.
The electric bike is light and simple, he said. "You turn the handle, and it just scoots. There's no sound. Just acceleration and speed. Just a shoosh on the pavement."

Senior Advisor for the Center for Strategic International Studies
http://www.csis.org/ a Right-Wing think tank which has been very close to Bush on matters dealing with Iraq & Afghanistan. They're like a who's who of the whatever neo-cons aren't in government and has a Board of trustees who's members proudly sit on boards of Halliburton, Hunt Oil, National Petroleum Council, American Petroleum Council, General Electric, special counsellors to Reagan, and what the hell is Sam Nunn up to with the Nunn-Wolfowitz-Task Forces for Hughes Electronics? I should have guessed. DLC. Media Transparency has quite a run-down on this organization
http://www.mediatransparency.org/all_in_one_results.php?Message=CSIS

Grants are from the exact same major donors as the National Endowment for Democracy (see below)

Then we have my real favorites:

National Endowment for Democracy (currently implicated in the Venezuelan Coup Scandal for having financed the oppostition to Hugo Chavez) which Ronald Reagan started in the early 1980s to "promote American values abroad" by destabilizing progressive movements/governments, especially those with a socialist or democratic socialist bent. Also on the board Frank Carlucci (Carlyle fame), Morton Abramowitz, Vin Weber (original PNAC signatory), Evan Bayh http://www.ned.org/about/who.html

Here are the National Endowment for Democracy's major/majority donors:
Sara Scaife Foundatation financed in turn by Mellon Industrial, at one time its largest single holding was stock in the Gulf Oil Corporation. Richard Scaife is the 38th richest man in America. Scaife has been a leading financier of New Right causes. The Sarah Scaife Foundation is considered to be one of the top 4 conservative foundations. He's known as the Right's Founding Father.

www.mediatransparency.org/funders/scaife_foundations.htm

The Lynde and Harry Bradley Foundation one of the country's largest and most influential right-wing foundations. Its targets range from affirmative action to social security, it has seen its greatest successes in areas of welfare "reform" and attempts to privatize public education through the promotion of school vouchers.

The overall objective of the Bradley Foundation is ... laissez-faire capitalism: capitalism with the gloves off. (...) supports right-wing groups such as the Heritage Foundation, source of policy papers on budget cuts, supply-side economics and the Star Wars military plan for the Reagan administration; the Madison Center for Educational Affairs, which provides funding for right-wing research and a network of conservative student newspapers; and the American Enterprise Institute, literary home of such racist authors as Charles Murray (The Bell Curve) and Dinesh D'Souza (The End of Racism), former conservative officeholders Jeanne kirkpatrick, Jack Kemp and William Bennet, and arch conservative jurists Robert Bjork and Antonin Scalia. <snip / this just goes on and on sending CHILLS up my spine>

http://www.mediatransparency.org/funders/bradley_foundation.htm

http://www.mediatransparency.org/funders/john_m_olin_foundation.htm

The Smith Richardson Foundation: active in supporting conservative causes... one of the countries richest families. Funded the early "supply-side" books of Jude Wanninski and George Gilder. Board of Directors include Ben Wattenberg (right wing, radical Free Market, Senior Fellow at American Enterprise Institute, maker of the right-wing PBS show "Think Tank", Senior Editor of The American Enterprise Magazine[br />
More: http://www.mediatransparency.org/funders/smith_richardson_foundation.htm

Markle Foundation Task Force on National Security in the Information Age http://www.markletaskforce.org/bios.html (Scary group with intimate ties to the Saban Center (Daniel Pipes)

trustee of the International Crisis Group http://www.intl-crisis-group.org/home/index.cfm

Anyway this article from the Wall Street Journal covers a few of those boards:

Pentagon Ties Boost Clark's Business
Retired General Helps Firms Navigate Homeland Security and Defense-Procurement Maze By Jacob M. Schlesinger and Sara Schaefer in Washington and Greg Hitt in Little Rock,Ark.

Wall Street Journal, 9/18/03

IN ANNOUNCING his presidential campaign, Wesley K. Clark promoted himself as the candidate best qualified to prosecute the war on terror. As a businessman, he has applied his military expertise to help a handful of high-tech companies try to profit from the fight. Since retiring from a 34-year Army career in 2000, Gen. Clark has become : chairman of a suburban Washington technology-corridor start-up, managing director at an investment firm, a director at four other firms around the country and an advisory-board member for two others. For most, he was hired to help boost the companies' military business.

http://bellaciao.org/en/article.php3?i




While Clark does not describe himself as a Democrat, he leans liberal on domestic policy.

<snip>

Others, however, say Clark's strengths could trump the field. Morton Abramowitz, ((WARNING, WARNING- PNAC Right here!)) a State Department veteran with whom Clark worked in Kosovo, called Clark "a fighter, a determined battler" and said Clark's military experience gives the general an advantage in an area in which the other Democratic candidates are "woefully deficient."

Abramowitz: Others, however, say Clark's strengths could trump the field. Morton Abramowitz, a State Department veteran with whom Clark worked in Kosovo, called Clark "a fighter, a determined battler" and said Clark's military experience gives the general an advantage in an area in which the other Democratic candidates are "woefully deficient."

"He comes as a commanding figure," Abramowitz said. "He's run things. What has Joe Lieberman run?"

Abramowitz dismissed the idea that it is too late for Clark to consider a run for president in 2004.

"Late? So was Ulysses S. Grant. So was Dwight Eisenhower," he said.

Gen. Clark's Next War: Conquer the Democrats?
By E.J. KESSLER
FORWARD STAFF
http://www.forward.com/issues/2003/03.01.31/news6.html



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BootinUp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #59
61. Some of us don't need to
relive history of other failed Presidential campaigns to know what will happen to Dean.
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mikehiggins Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #59
62. Here's a thought, shiv
If you think the "base" is going to stay home because Clark is the candidate you are as far off base as those DNCers who didn't "get" how mad the "base" was/is about Bush. There is no reason to worry about the "base" or Rove or any of that. The Democrats will come out to revenge the theft of the 2000 election no matter what. All of the other stuff that's happened since will only motivate them more.

What has to happen is we have to give the other side a reason to vote for our guy, or sit home themselves. At the very least, Clark gives the disgrunteld among the GOP voters a rationale for believing they are not voting for a Democrat but "moving up" to a President who can fill that office much better than that bumbler in the White House today. A certifiable war hero with a real record of accomplishment who has the respect of our allies and all of the rest.

Why would someone who is unhappy with the direction this country is going in vote for the "Invisible Airman" as opposed to General Wesley Clark? Do you think the average voter is going to care that Clark almost started WWIII by standing up to the Russsians? If that was true they'd more likely give him another medal.

Your opposition to Clark is noted. If you stay home rather than vote for Clark good for you. If you think that the folks who lifted Dean above the herd are going to stay home if he is not the candidate, you are sorely mistaken. Most of Dean's supporters don't give a rat's ass about "reforming the Democratic party." That's only DU rhetoric. The vast majority of the "base" and the Dean supporters are agreed on one point. ABB.

The losers who wander around claiming that only the purest of the pure need apply for the job of representing the Party in 2004 have missed the boat big time.
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in_cog_ni_to Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 06:13 PM
Response to Original message
64. Yes, you're wrong.
http://clark04.com/issues/economicplan/

http://clark04.com/issues/healthcare/

http://clark04.com/issues/healthcare/

http://clark04.com/issues/alqaeda/

http://clark04.com/issues/economicvision/

http://clark04.com/issues/jobcreation/

http://clark04.com/issues/improvinghealthcare/

http://clark04.com/issues/10pledges/

http://clark04.com/issues/americanjobs/

http://clark04.com/issues/prescription/http://clark04.com/speeches/012/

http://clark04.com/issues/manufacturing/

http://clark04.com/issues/aids_global/

http://clark04.com/articles/012/

http://clark04.com/speeches/005a/

http://clark04.com/issues/agriculture/

http://clark04.com/issues/aids_domestic/

http://clark04.com/issues/americasworkers/

http://clark04.com/issues/education/

http://clark04.com/issues/preschool/

http://clark04.com/issues/highereducation/

http://clark04.com/issues/environment/

http://clark04.com/issues/turnaround/goal2/

http://clark04.com/issues/cities/

http://clark04.com/issues/gunsafety/

http://clark04.com/issues/patriotact/

http://clark04.com/issues/serviceplan/

http://clark04.com/issues/africanamericans/

http://clark04.com/issues/glbt/

http://clark04.com/articles/013/

http://clark04.com/issues/veteranssecurity/

http://clark04.com/issues/nativeamericans/

http://clark04.com/speeches/011/

http://clark04.com/issues/hispanics/

http://clark04.com/issues/hispanics/espanol/

http://clark04.com/issues/women/

http://clark04.com/issues/disabilities/

http://clark04.com/access_guidelines/

http://clark04.com/issues/seniors/

http://clark04.com/issues/prescription/

http://clark04.com/downloads/pdf/Clark04_Turnaround.pdf

http://clark04.com/issues/turnaround/

http://clark04.com/issues/turnaround/goal1/

http://clark04.com/issues/turnaround/goal2/

http://clark04.com/issues/turnaround/goal3/

http://clark04.com/issues/turnaround/goal4/

http://clark04.com/issues/turnaround/goal5/






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Dr Fate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Dec-28-03 06:17 PM
Response to Original message
65. I've heard him discuss "jobs" "saving lives", the environment...
...education, the economy, etc...

I've heard him say that his organizational skills in providing for his troops will translate on the domestic front for the whole nation...

But IS true that Bush will focus on defense more than any other issue- and Clark has made it clear that he will stand "toe to toe" to Bush on this.

I like Dean, but I cant see Dean taking on the media on defense issues...
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