Righteous Ralph is part of the OPPOSITION, just as surely as any

[pnwmom]

Republican is part of the opposition.

Why? Simple. Because he has chosen that role. He has made himself into the opposition, and we are fools if we think he's an ally.

He has insisted, time after time, that there is no significant difference between the Democrats and the Republicans. At the same time, he reserves his deepest contempt for the Democrats, who he feels have betrayed him, and he has repeatedly worked with the Rethugs to defeat them.

He would rather defeat progressive goals by helping to elect a Rethug than allow any Dem to win who fails to meet his standard of perfection.

Judge him by his actions, which are clear -- not his words, which are deceptions. The young idealistic Ralph Nader is gone and has been replaced with a narcissistic, secretive, contemptuous old con man.


Here is a site with a number of useful links.
http://www.hereinstead.com/THE-REAL-RALPH.htm

[SaveElmer]

1. K&R from me...

Right on target!!!

[pnwmom]

2. Thank you, SaveElmer! n/t

[RaleighNCDUer]

3. "Now, don't hold back...

tell us what you really think!

[pnwmom]

4. He never holds back, why should we?

I contrast his behavior with that of the Greens in 2004, who held back in the key swing states, in order not to give the Republicans a boost.

[Jim Sagle]

5. Fuckin' A. 6th K&R!

[pnwmom]

6. Thank you, Jim! n/t

[John Q. Citizen]

7. Rupert Murdock is part of the opposition.

Who is worse in your opinion? Ralph or Rupert Murdock?
I think Rupert Murdock. He's definitely worse. For a whole lot of reasons. He owns FOX. He's smeared so many of our Dems daily 24/7 As you point out Ralph, was good. Then he went bad, but he isn't a greedy Media owning liar in the same sense that Murdock is. Murdock is pro war, pro-GOP, and basically a propagandist. Ralph has a big ego and narcissistic tendencies.

Chaffee was part of the opposition, but he was a lot better than say GHW Bush, also part of the opposition.

Who do you think was better, Chaffee or GHW Bush? I'd have to go with Chaffee. He even voted against bush and the IWR. He was a Repo. But Bush Senior is a mass murderer. Look at Iran Contra, they were smuggling cocaine into the US inner city and responsible for the deaths and addictions of tens of thousands of poor black people. and he is good friends with bin Ladin's dad and Bush sr is definitely worse than Chaffe ever was or ever could be.

Dick Morris is part of the opposition. Now there is a scum bag with morals no American could abide. A two faced whore who would sell out his own grandmother.

Who do you think is worse? Dick Morris, or Sen. Allen-R? I'd have to go with Morris. He's really bad. Allen is a jerk, a hypocrite, greedy, but Morris is scum. Ever see him slaming Dems on FOX?

Hey i just noticed something. What do the three worst, Morris, Murdock and Bush, have in common (besides that they are part of the opposition? All three have been close associates of the Clintons, who of course are on our side and are good.

Morris worked for Clinton for a few years in the White House, Murdock is a Hillary contributor and friend, and Bush sr. and Bill are good buddies. They work together on Charity and love to play golf together. Wow. What a coincidence. Three worst of the opposition are or were very tight with the Clintons. I imagine the Clinton were just trying to get them to reform , and come over to our side. That must be it. But I guess some opposition are just so bad there's no reforming them, no matter how hard the Clintons tried to set a good example.

I wonder if the three 'better" of the opposition have ties with the Clintons. I doubt Ralph would. He's become so egotistical in his old age that I doubt he'd be caught dead with them. I think it's because he doesn't want to be shown up, probably. After all they are pretty famous and maybe it makes him uncomfortable to have to share the spotlight.

i've never heard of Hillary receiving contributions from Chaffe, or of her giving him a contribution. Of course they might of known each other in the Senate. Ditto for Bill when he was in the White House. And I doubt a hypocrite like Allen would want to ruin his opposition creds by hanging with the Clintons, at least outside of work during fun time.

Thanks for this thread on our opposition. It really got me to thinking about our opposition and about how bad they are, relatively speaking. And you are right about Ralph. He certainly is the opposition. With enemies like him, who needs friends?

K&R

[Alamom]

10. Murdoch has supported Al Gore, Ted Kennedy, John Kerry, D. Feinstein & a host

of other Democrats over the last 10 years. I imagine the Clintons need to try and reform them too, Right?

Source: Newsmeat



Totally off topic.....FYI, There are numerous threads bashing the Clintons and if this was a veiled attempt to push several half-truths & myths, meant to be sarcastic or even dark humor, it failed miserably.


'Morris worked for Clinton for a few years in the White House, Murdock is a Hillary contributor and friend, and Bush sr. and Bill are good buddies. They work together on Charity and love to play golf together. Wow. What a coincidence. Three worst of the opposition are or were very tight with the Clintons. I imagine the Clinton were just trying to get them to reform , and come over to our side. That must be it. But I guess some opposition are just so bad there's no reforming them, no matter how hard the Clintons tried to set a good example.'



edgr

[John Q. Citizen]

18. So your contention is that our opposition are really our friends? I'm not sure

what half truths or myths you are talking about.

Are you saying that Dick Morris wasn't hired by the Clintons and worked for them in the White House?

Are you saying FOX isn't the opposition and that FOX's owner Murdock isn't a Hillary supporter?

Are you saying Bush Sr. isn't one of the worst of the worst of the opposition and that he and Bill aren't personal friends?


Or are you saying that the only opposition who is bad is Ralph?

I'm not sure what you are accusing me of.

[Alamom]

27. Using a thread about Nader who has been Absolute Presidential Oppositon

& actually taken votes, to bash the Clintons.

It's simple.

Got it now?

[William769]

14. Clinton must be doing better that I thought.

Your desperate attempt at the pathetic smear is laughable, as Alamom has so eloquently pointed out.

[John Q. Citizen]

19. I hear Clinton is doing fabulous. What's yout point? Mine is that there is a lot of opposition, and

some is worse than others.

Do you believe Ralph is worse than Murdock, for instance?

I assume you agree that they are both opposition.

Or maybe you don't. Maybe in your opinion FOX news is fair and balanced toward Democrats and only Ralph is bad, but Murdock is good. That's why I asked.

What's your opinion?

[pnwmom]

31. Nader is a wolf in sheep's clothing. He dresses up as a progressive,

and talks the talk -- so some people overlook or don't notice or forgive the fact that BY HIS ACTIONS he's helped the Republicans tear this country and its Constitution to shreds.

[John Q. Citizen]

33. Nadar helped the bush's, FOX news owner Murdock, and Morris tear down the country

is what you are saying?

So is he personal friends with them too? Or is it strickly a business relasionship?

Look if Bill and Hillary want to be friends with, take donations from, and hire Nader to work for them, I don't care. Do you?
I think it would be a step up for them, as I pointed out already.

I've got to get my kids to the water. It's hot here today. Thanks for the respectful tone in the debate of who the worst of our opposition is, and I'll try to get back to you later this evening.

[Tellurian]

24. Apparently, John Q. doesn't get out much!

The Clinton's success is due mainly to knowing how to get along with opposing/resistant parties and working to convince them to see things their way. I would call that bi-partisan Diplomacy with a capital "D"! Ralph Nader does not fit into the paradigm you've noted as comparables. Nader is a washed up spoiler and will forever be remembered as the man who gave us Bush in 2000. He shall live with the guilt of that albatross for the rest of his life.

Otherwise, your premise is nothing more than vaunted ruminations venting your own hostilities for the Clintons, containing not a thimble-full of truth in another vain attempt at a smear..

Move back 4 spaces, roll the dice and try again. buh-bye!

[John Q. Citizen]

26. Wait, are you trying to tell me that Bill and GHW bush really aren't personal friends?

That they were both lying about it?

That's possible I guess. Do you have a link to that?

If you want, I can get you multiple links that document that they are both on record as being personal friends.

Even shrub was talking about it.

Look, if you want to ignore that fact or attempt to cover it up fine. But for you to suggest that I'm being untruthful is plain wrong.

I demand that you either put up or shut up.

[Tellurian]

30. No, I said your premise is at fault..

You go through a litany of convicts asking which one is worse than the other. Ending up with the Clinton's association with a past president as some sort of betrayal of public trust. When it was the Clintons all along you intended to smear. What I said to you in my post was: "IT DIDN'T WORK!" Move back 4 spaces, roll the dice and try again. (hint) Make your next veiled attempt at a Clinton smear a bit more creative. You just might win a point or two if it makes us giggle or spew our coffee.

[pnwmom]

32. And Ted Kennedy and Orrin Hatch are also personal friends

but political opponents.

So???

[defendandprotect]

8. Pretty much everything we know about corporatism in America . . .

we know because of Ralph Nader --

the buying of government -- the whole deal -- it is Ralph Nader who has taught us over the decades.

Oddly enough . . . I do think that he was naive -- though he recognized corporate-fascism, I don't

think even he understood the depths of evil that Bush/Cheney represented.

I think it's thrown him a bit . . . as it has all of us.

I agree with Crispin-Miller ... these people will as soon kill you as look at you.

I don't think that Nader ever quite had that level of recognition re what he's up against.

On the other hand, I do think that many elected officials do understand the tremendous political

violence that we've had from the right-wing over the past decades -- destroying progressive/liberal

leadership. Gawd -- look at the Anthrax thing!!! Of course, intended to close Congress at one

of the most crucial times in American history -- and to prevent any real investigation of 9/11.

[OneBlueSky]

9. it's true that Nader played a crucial role in exposing the government/corporate alliance . . .

through education and public policy action . . . but when he crossed over to elective politics, his influence quickly went from positive to negative as he siphoned off votes and support from mostly Democratic candidates . . .

Ralph Nader has an important role to play in our struggle . . . but not as a presidential candidate . . .

[Phrogman]

11. If the Dem party had someone to represent the people, than Ralph would pose no threat.

now would he?

[pnwmom]

17. Wrong. "The people" comprise a broad range of political views.

If we choose someone as far left as Nader, we lose many of the moderates. We could end up as we did when McGovern was the nominee. McGovern -- who I was thrilled to vote for -- had positions that put him to the left of most Democrats -- and off the charts for most Americans. And he carried only one state out of 50, Massachusetts.

By the way, Nader has almost no support among African Americans, Asian Americans, Hispanic Americans, union groups, and environmentalists. He represents a small subset of white, college-educated (mostly) males. He can't even be said to represent Democrats, much less "the people."

The reason he is a threat is NOT because he does a better job of representing "the people." It's because he can peel off enough votes from the naive and idealistic (among the Democrats) to push the final vote totals to the Republicans.

[Perry Logan]

12. Ralph is a true hero. But heroes are not usually the best political players.

I will always admire Ralph. But--like most third-party types--he exaggerates the corporate control of the Democrats and completely ignores the traitorous degeneracy of today's Republicans.

[mzmolly]

23. I think Nader is a wolf

in sheeps clothing, personally.

http://www.realchange.org/nader.htm

[Tellurian]

25. Ralph gave us Bush. Don't ever forget that..

Or are you suffering from short term memory loss?

[LoZoccolo]

13. Recommended!

:thumbsup:

[Stinky The Clown]

15. Lucky 13 from me

[blondeatlast]

16. Want to be relevant, Ralph? If you believe in justice, talk about SCOTUS

when Leslie and Tweety have you on to discuss your latest use of acid-free wood. Direct the conversation to how to get out of Iraq, how to put a stop to al Qaeda, how to reverse the damage that has been done to the fundament of our country (for review: see the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution); you're a smart giuy, have one of your starry-eyed followers look them up on the no longer free internets).

Take the focus off of how the political process has done YOU wrong, and think of the American people, especially those of us on the Left, are crying for some hope. Be what you were--call for a fair shake. Please--or continue to be an object of my scorn. I can't forgive and I won't.

[mzmolly]

20. I just gave you rec. # 15. I'll never understand why a union busting, Haliburton

stock holding, lying, narcissist continues to be revered after "the evidence?"

[pnwmom]

21. Wait a minute. Are we talking about Ralph?

Or Cheney?

;)

[mzmolly]

22. Well - both now that you mention it.

;)

[buddhamama]

28. of course he is.

who has said otherwise?

[pnwmom]

29. The DUer's who want to lay flowers at his feet. n/t