If You Think Democrats Are So Moronic

[ruggerson]

that they will let the media and/or the Republicans "coronate" our next nominee for us, why are you bothering being a Democrat?

People vote. Real people. In Iowa, NH, NV, SC and elsewhere. Real people will make the choice of our next nominee.

And if it's Mrs. Clinton, Mr. Edwards or Mr. Obama, it won't be the media elite who picked him/her.

It will be the Democratic primary voter.

[NotGivingUp]

1. what kind of crap is that? you've already let them choose for you...

you only mentioned their 3 picks. i'm not voting for any of them. i'm voting for kucinich.

[ruggerson]

2. They are leading in the polls

you remember scientific polling? The kind that happens mostly offline?

Those three are leading amongst self identified DEMOCRATIC primary voters.

If you don't like that, blame Democratic voters, not the "media."

(Btw, if Kucinich wins, it won't be the "media" who picked him either.)

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[deadmessengers]

6. Because he's an anti-choice Republican racist. n/t

[Name removed]

8. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Clintonista2]

10. Quote of just *one* of RP's racist comments:

"Given the inefficiencies of what DC laughingly calls the criminal justice system, I think we can safely assume that 95 percent of the black males in that city are semi-criminal or entirely criminal."

[deadmessengers]

13. Sure!

Ron Paul is anti-choice:
http://www.l4l.org/library/bepro-rp.html

Ron Paul is a racist (TONS of his "greatest hits" here):
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=1061584

I'm going to assume that you don't need a link confirming that he's a Repugnican. :)

[Progressivelynasty]

18. I see.

If you have ever been robbed by a black teen-aged male, you know how unbelievably-fleet-footed they can be.” (Victoria Advocate, 5/24/96)

“Politically sensible blacks are outnumbered as decent people... Given the inefficiencies of what DC laughingly calls the criminal justice system, I think we can safely assume that 95 percent of the black males in that city are semi-criminal or entirely criminal.” (Victoria Advocate, 5/24/96)

"We don't think a child of 13 should be held responsible as a man of 23. That's true for most people, but black males age 13 who have been raised on the streets and who have joined criminal gangs are as big, strong, tough, scary and culpable as any adult and should be treated as such." (Victoria Advocate, 5/24/96)

“Opinion polls consistently show that only about 5 percent of blacks have sensible political opinions, i.e. support the free market, individual liberty and the end of welfare and affirmative action.” (Victoria Advocate, 5/24/96)

“The Criminals who terrorize our cities - in riots and on every non-riot day - are not exclusively young black males, but they largely are.” (Victoria Advocate, 8/7/96)

“There is no such thing as a hate crime.” (Ron Paul: Political Action Report, 1/15/92)

A “free market provides for the poor...” (MacNeil/Lehrer NewsHour, 10/24/88 on why he is against government assistance)

"Is bailing out people that chose to live on the coastline a proper function of the federal government?” he asks. “Why do people in Arizona have to be robbed in order to support the people on the coast?" (Washington Post, 7/9/06) (Paul voted against assistance to Katrina and Rita victims, even though some of his district is on the Texas coast.)

“I am opposed to any form of government health insurance as I am opposed to the taxes, regulations, licensing requirements, and monopolistic practices, which keep health costs higher than their true market value.” (CNN Presidential Questionnaire, 1988)

As for Social Security, "we didn't have it until 1935," Paul says. "I mean, do you read stories about how many people were laying in the streets and dying and didn't have medical treatment? …Prices were low and the country was productive and families took care of themselves and churches built hospitals and there was no starvation." (Washington Post, 7/9/06)

“Something must be done to phase out the government’s involvement in Social Security. Pension and annuity plans should be the concern of the people, not the government. Political control of these things will lead only to bankruptcy and misery for retired persons.” (CNN Presidential Questionnaire, 1988M)

“Immigrants can spread diseases for which we may have no immunity. There is also the question of crime and culture. Many immigrants come from countries with different legal structures and are not willing to behave in the way we expect American citizens to behave.” (Ron Paul Political Report, 3/15/92)

"The right of secession should be ingrained in a free society. There is nothing sacred about large units of government. And there is nothing wrong with loosely banding together small units of government. With the disintegration of the Soviet Union, we too should consider it." From his newsletter in the early to mid 90s--sorry I don't have an exact date.

So out of context quotes and basicly stating well known facts about DC crime stats is now racist.

/feels alienated at the Dem party if this is how free thinkers are embraced nowadays.
/knows thaT that free thinkers are shunned by the Repubs, but SHEESH! I thought Democrats had more latitude than this.

[Clintonista2]

21. Are you kidding me?

"Out of context quotes" - explain to me how "“Opinion polls consistently show that only about 5 percent of blacks have sensible political opinions, i.e. support the free market, individual liberty and the end of welfare and affirmative action.” " is "taken out of context"

[Forkboy]

27. Lirwin,you and I aren't going to agree on much...

...but we both know what this guy is all about.

I'll let you toy with him first. :)

[Clintonista2]

29. Thanks, but I doubt he's gonna post in this thread anymore :(

But I've noticed his post count has doubled in about the last 8 minutes. Hopefully he isn't banned before we can mess with him some more :evilfrown:

[Forkboy]

32. Mmmmmmmmmmm.... fresh troll.

It's not just for breakfast anymore. :)

[Progressivelynasty]

37. LMAO!

Honest challenge to the great intellects in here is seen as trolling.

Try replying intelligently instead of mere dismissals. That's something I expect from Conservative boards I've been to.

Too much to ask?

[Clintonista2]

39. "Blacks are stupid" is hardly "intelligent debate" NT.

[Progressivelynasty]

43. Uninformed is hardly stupid

AS my post indicated, but I am detecting a need to morph what I said into something I didn't to fill a need to feel superior.

I believe that's classic "Strawman" debate tactics.

See if you can do better please.

[Clintonista2]

44. Your claim that "blacks are uninformed" is not accurate

Prove its accuracy.

[Progressivelynasty]

52. What kind of ....

Are you for real? To prove how uninformed blacks and minorities are, one would have to POLL said minorities, and ask them pertinent questions. So far, that hasn't been done by Zogby or Gallup or or or. Want to guess why?

LOL! Yeah, because they already KNOW the answer.

And you're ducking it.

[Forkboy]

56. Is it because blacks and minorities are stupid?

Hey Sparky,if it's never been polled how the fuck do you know the answer?

Talk about ducking... :rofl:

I haven't even alerted on you because you are way too much fun!

[Progressivelynasty]

59. So, you're reading impaired.

Just how much of my post did you gloss over? Or, is this the extent of your inquisitive mind I can expect?

i SAID I had over 30+ years of precint work in Florida AND now Texas.

Did you get it that time dimbulb, or should I repeat myself, YET AGAIN for you?

/suspects a bad outcome from this engagement.

[Forkboy]

65. Better repeat it.

I have the Dead Kennedys so loud I can't even read.

What were you saying again? You're not a racist shit? Do tell.

I think the outcome for me will be awesome! Don't sell yourself short.You have lots to offer.

Ok...maybe you don't.

Now I know why lions eat their young.

[Forkboy]

77. Awwww,mods.....

:P

[Skittles]

81. AW MAN I WAS ENJOYING THAT

racists bastards who claim they are pure are SOOOO much fun

[Clintonista2]

82. Why do you resort to petty insults?

Whatever happened to an "intelligent debate"? Every single post of yours is filled with slurs.

[Clintonista2]

80. Actually it HAS been polled

The results found that, even though African Americans have a much lower rate of post-secondary education, they are only slightly less informed than your average white male.

http://people-press.org/reports/display.php3?ReportID=319

[Forkboy]

41. How many conservative boards have you been to?

Not being a racist shithead is all I ask.Let us know when you manage that level of evolvement. :shrug:

[Progressivelynasty]

50. Unimpressed.

Is there some remedial classes you can take to come up to the adult world? Just askin'.

[Forkboy]

53. Yeah,I'm unimpressed too.

Is there some remedial classes you can take to make you something other than a racist?

Just askin'.

[Progressivelynasty]

60. Its easy to play the Racist card

But in your case, maybe slapjacks is the extent of your card playing prowess.

God, I hope you're not one of the heavyweights in here.

/no, not a slam as to your spreading thighs either.

[Forkboy]

63. It's even easier to BE racist.

Let us know how that works out for ya.

Keep trying bub. :hi:

[Progressivelynasty]

66. You give up way too easy.

I can see now that what passes for stamina in here is just a simple glimpse at passers by, hoping they won't stay.

there's a word for that you know.

And its not very complimentary.

[Forkboy]

71. I'm not glimpsing...I'm downright gawking.

I don't want you to leave at all.I want you to stay and meet more of us.You seem like a nice enough bloke,in a "stay away from my kids" kind of way.

[ruggerson]

85. Are you telling us he has spawn?

n/t

[mitchtv]

45. shit, I quit for a break

and the trolls are hopping outa the water. I better try another thread

[Progressivelynasty]

34. I'm open to any and all

disagreements. I may be right, I may be wrong. If I'm wrong, I admit it and learn from the event.

If this is about "toying" with someone intent on chnge and true democracy, maybe thgis isn't the place for me and once I confirm this, will leave you all to your imagined sovereignty.

What good is it if all you do is sit around bellyaching to each other and never progress?

[Forkboy]

36. We'll miss you.

Your posts show a lot,but "progress" isn't one of those things.

[Progressivelynasty]

40. Point something out then.

Or is dismissal one of the intellectual catchalls in here?

[Forkboy]

48. I am.I'm pointing out that you seem racist in your attitudes and selected quotes.

:shrug:

[Progressivelynasty]

64. Seems like and IS is a very different thing

I can quote someone saying "I've known white niggers before" and not be a racist.

I can point out how poor people of many different nationalities don't have the time in their days to become "Informed" on geopolitical issues. THAT doesn't make me a racist.


If I say Messcans are only good for mowin' lawns and makin' tacos....

THAT would be a racist thing to say.

Get it straight.

[Forkboy]

67. Oh,I think I'm right on this one.

As Bubba would say,"When you find yourself in a hole quit digging."

[Laurab]

55. May I ask what exactly you meant

about John Edwards three dollar mouth? I found that rather interesting. And then I find you here saying many more interesting things. I'm interested in interesting people.

[Progressivelynasty]

28. Its no big surprise

that way too many of the black vote have no idea who or why they're voting for. Please, when Al Gore can halfheartedly dance and clp out of time (yeah toss in John Kerry a well) in a black church ONE SUNDAY out of how many YEARS of politicing they do, and they still get the majority of the black vote, how in the heck can you come back at me with your disbeliefe. Not credibly I assure you. Or, is there some hiden formula you'd like to share with this Democrat. granted, I live in the south, lived here all my life, but I've seen this senario played out a thousand times. Black voters are very nearly single issue voters locally and state level. They (speaking generally here now there are exceptions) almost never engage in national levels of platform debate/discussions. That's for Jesse and Al Sharpton.


while you and others maty FEEL that this is a racists statement, I assure you its not, and is borne purely of observation over the last 30+ years of political involvement.

[Clintonista2]

35. You're making a claim, ignorant to external reality.

First, you claim that "way too many of the black vote have no idea who or why they're voting for." Let's assume, for the sake of debate, that that is true (It's not). That means, by your own calculation, that black voters randomly vote for random candidates. After all, they don't know who they are voting for, right? Then why do 95%+ of African American voters vote Democratic? They vote democratic, because that is the party of civil rights, the party of economic and social justice. What you, and RP are really trying to say is, you despise black voters because they don't vote with YOU on the issues, YOU being the RFP (Republican Fascist Party)

[Progressivelynasty]

49. That's a very fair question.

And one that deserves an answer of course.

In my now 30+ years of intense political life, both in Florida and now Texas, my precint activities included registrations as well as "get out the vote" campaigns. Of course, delivering for the party's favorite candidate is the priority, as it should be, but wne canvassing poorer neighborhoods (white, black cuban and hispanic) while preforming party buisness, I have noticed a distinct lack of what I would consider "platform awareness". People at that level (no disrespect mind you, just economic classifications is all) don't have much care if Global Warming or Tax cuts or After School programs will be funded or not. they DO care if the neighborhood is going to go to hell or not, whether the cops will start getting crack dealers off their streets or not, and if the State actually gets them enough support to help them feed their kids and get them to school safely or not. Most poor people have as their core concerns, their Kids, and whether or not their kids will end up as hosed as they are.

Illegal immigration, Taxes and Foreign Policy are miniscule in their (still speaking generally here, there are exceptions of course) political leanings.

And lets be honest here now, how many of us in here are in that shape? I bet a minute amount. Fractional I bet. Federal and Global political issues just don't get the time of day in their lives mainly because their lives (more accurately the amount of time in their days) is so monopolized by making ends meet, they don't have anything left to devote to such grand ideals as global warming or the war on terror etc.

Its a stark realization to witness first hand. But I have.

Have you?

[Forkboy]

26. Shit...how did I miss you?

You're going to be lots of fun!

[Progressivelynasty]

31. I pull no punches, even for

my own team. It keeps us tough, united, and centered.

I try not to insult, but when attacked, look out. I hammer as hard as I get.

I do enjoy being challenged though. Makes me recalibrate from time to time, but overall, that's a good thing.

Dad always told me "if you don't change as you get older, you're stagnating, and that's just stupid."



DAMN new keyboard... had to edit 2 times before posting this.

[Forkboy]

33. My dad always told me,"Don't listen to racists."

You might want to reconsider where those punches are landing.

[Clintonista2]

38. But..but..but.. he said in his post "Im not a racist".. you mean that doesn't make it true?!?!

I thought when someone precedes a long-winded, racist rant with "now I'm not a racist but...", that made it true.

[Forkboy]

46. Ever listen to C-Span's call in shows?

"I've always voted for Democrats..." and they go on to say how much we suck,and you know how full of shit they are.I'm getting that same feeling. :)

[Progressivelynasty]

58. CSPAN is kind of entertaining sometimes.

I find it challenging to try and guess how many Reps call in on the Dem line and how many Dems call in on the Rep line. the Indy's generally are boringly predictable.

get whatever feeling you want to. Its time you woke up to realize the Dem Party CAN lose this next election, by doing... JUST what they're doing now.

Wake up and smell the coffee boy.

[Forkboy]

61. Thanks for the update.

In other news the Sun is really hot and Republicans still suck.

[Progressivelynasty]

69. Yes they do.

And isn't it something to celebrate when the Dems do EXACTLY what we accused the Repubs of doing when they were in charge?

You must be so proud.

[Forkboy]

72. I am proud.

Proud I'm not racist or a Ron Paul supporter.

Let us know how that next meet up goes,wont you? :rofl:

[billyoc]

11. Because he's a republican.

You do know that this is democraticunderground.com, don't you?

[Progressivelynasty]

16. Oh for cryin out loud.

he registers Repub, but he's Libertarian through and through.

Is that some threat to DNC goals? Mea Culpa if it is.

[deadmessengers]

17. Libertarian through-and-through? NOT A CHANCE

He's anti-choice, which is decidedly an authoritarian position.

[Progressivelynasty]

20. Seems the Dems are into Authoritarian politics nowadays.

Or is there some explanation you'd like to proffer as to why the Dems gave Bush his Eavesdropping bill he wanted?

Willing to listen to any theories.

[Clintonista2]

22. Why not respond to the point at hand?

Which was, how can a libertarian be anti-chioce? We're talking about your uninformed opinion of RP being a "libertarian", if you wanna discuss how the dems screwed up, there are many other topics to post in. Somehow I don't think you're going to last very long here...

[deadmessengers]

25. He won't

Disruptors on their first day (check out his post count) aren't usually inclined to talk about anything other than the talking point they came in here to spew.

[Progressivelynasty]

68. RP Is anti-choice yes

But if you look further into his stance on States rights and his anti-federalism, you might (and this is fast becoming a bleak possibilty here) recognise his unwillingness to substitute his personal wnts and desires over the people he represents.

NAW, too much to ask I s'pose.

[billyoc]

42. Yep, you-a culpa.

Only Democratic candidates are supported here at the ol' DU.

[Progressivelynasty]

54. Yes, I know this is DU.

Do you ask stupid questions a lot?

[billyoc]

74. there are no stupid questions here,

only stupid trolls.

[polichick]

5. imo you have to take polling with an enormous grain of salt...

I've never been included in a poll, and neither have my grassroot Dem friends and family. The media really does crown the "frontrunners" ~ giving them more air time, even during debates.

[onenote]

7. I've never traveled in outer space

But I accept as fact that it has occurred.

[polichick]

12. So you really think all those polls are "scientific?" nt

[onenote]

14. i think that the fact that I haven't been personally polled doesn't invalidate them

Got anything else?

[polichick]

15. Read more carefully...

I didn't say "invalidate" ~ but to take polling with a grain of salt. Anyone who doesn't is a fool.

[SaveElmer]

3. Well said...

Whining about elites, and the media forcing candidates down our throats...blah, blah, blah...has been the mantra of losing campaigns for 200 years...

They don't even see the irony in the fact they constantly contradict themselves...

On one hand they say the media is forcing Hillary Clinton down our throats...

But when polls come out showing her ahead, they claim no one is paying attention...and its all name recognition...


They say it is the elites picking our candidates...

Yet mock Hillary because the vast majority of her support comes from less educated, less well off Democrats...

It is the whining of folks who don't want to look at the hard reality that their candidate of choice simply is not the one people want...so far....

[Progressivelynasty]

9. Democrats are no more moronic as republicans are.

Most democrats I know are well intentioned morally upright individuals who have America's best interests at heart and want to see America succdeed as a nation. Same for many of mt republican friends.

the diff is how we get to that so called success.

Now polititians on the other hand... have almost NOTHING in common with the goals of either camp of Reps/Dems in the joe sixpack genre.

[nolabels]

89. So if you are suggesting there should be a viable third party you will probably have to.......

go somewhere else and kick start it. Mostly many probably would believe that there should be a second party before a third is needed. Also, just think, the more one comes here to ponders ideas with the rest of us then less actual time one will actually have to build that third party :think:

[tkmorris]

19. There's really only two teams

Oh sure, I could become an Independent. Or join the Green Party, if I really want to disappear into oblivion. Or the Lieberman Party, whatever that is. Umm, no, I don't think so.

There are only two partys with the potential to effect any policy at the national level. It's a given I'm not a Republican, so that leaves only one choice. The fact that 90% of the people voting in EITHER party are susceptible to media manipulation doesn't change that one iota. And don't bother getting all red in the face about that 90% figure either. 9 in 10 of ANY group anywhere are simply mindless drones who parrot the words and actions of whoever they perceive as their leaders, and you know it.

[Progressivelynasty]

23. No redface here.

I agree that way too much of our genPop is easilly manipulated by the media.

Makes you wonder though, should that many people be voting?

No, I know that to disallow people from voting based on what I think their intellect should be is a heinous thought. But DAMN, that throws WAY TOO MANY votes to the easilly swayed. One way or the other.

[Laurab]

62. No - I think we all know who the "easily swayed"

low intellect people voted for '04 - and that 30% or so is still backing the same guy. I think an IQ test for the Presidential candidate might be a better idea, really, and a mental health examination for sure.

[bowens43]

24. I guess you're not familiar with US elections.

Are things done differently in your country?

[ruggerson]

30. So John Kerry was the "media's pick" in '04 pre-primary?

Funny, I don't remember that. Matter of fact, I remember Dean as being on the cover of Time Magazine, during the pre primary season, not Kerry.

In my country, the people vote and pick their nominee. And, often, they surprise the pundits and conventional wisdom.

[polichick]

47. Unfortunately, the media and DC Dems took Dean down...

And in the end the people didn't trust themselves enought to use the power Dean tried to remind them of.

[ruggerson]

51. No. Dean took himself out.

During the last few weeks before the Iowa primary, the Republicans unearthed a video clip of Dean from years earlier, denigrating the Iowa caucuses on a talk show.

The media ran with it, as they love a good gotcha! story on anyone, Republican or Democrat.

Dean, not quite being ready for prime time, instead of handling the moment with self effacing humor and quick wittedness, actually got angry and started stalking away from reporters who were hounding him about it.

Iowa voters were treated to video of an angry, curt Howard Dean running down a hall, brushing reporter's aside.

Within days, his poll numbers began to sink.

The "scream" and the media pile on happened AFTER he had already lost Iowa.

A state which he lost all by himself.

[polichick]

57. The episode about Iowa wouldn't have done it...

...without that ridiculous hype about the scream. Most Americans think the clout Iowa and NH have is disproportional and outdated.

People seemed to lose faith in their own experience ~ and buy into what the media was selling.

[ruggerson]

70. He lost Iowa BEFORE the scream

the "scream" happened on the night of his Iowa concession speech.

Dean mostly did himself in, even without the "scream" being hyped by the media.

[karynnj]

83. Before the scream,

the results in Iowa were extremely disappointing for Dean. He was suppose to be number one or maybe number two, losing to Gephardt. Kerry got a very surprising 38% of the vote, Edwards, 32%, and Dean 18%. Dean had already been losing support in NH, mainly to Clark. When Kerry did so well, many in NH who had liked him but had bought that he was not really in the running, gained many people.

[defendandprotect]

76. and they did it, not by attacking his positions -- too dangerous -- but by

creating a false impression and thereby humiliating him.

Swiftboating works --


A ridiculed candidate confuses even his supporters --
think of Dukakis --

That's why I'm saying Hillary will be running with Bill's PENIS -- every day!!!

[karynnj]

79. That is not true

Dean more or less imploded in Iowa in January 2004. It wasn't just one thing:
- It was the debate where he complained that he didn't want to be a pin cushion
- It was the nasty fight with Gephardt that tarnished both of them
and
- It was the news day that alternated the most effective TV campaign event I have ever watched(Kerry having a re-union with the guy he saved) and Dean telling an annoying 70 plus year old heckler to "SIT DOWN")

If you looked at the rolling average polls from Iowa, it was obvious that there was a strong sustained move to Kerry. Averaging several days results eliminates blips, but causes it to take longer to see a change. In the last few weeks, Kerry went up nearly every day. He did this with Edwards getting strong support from the Des Moines Register. None of the major news magazines had Kerry on the cover.

[ruggerson]

84. Exactly

I forgot about those other events. I remember watching that debate (as a Dean supporter) and being really put off by his whininess. It actually changed my opinion of him as a candidate and, I imagine, many Iowans had the same reaction.

People now, in retrospect, try to pretend that Kerry was the corporate, media choice, because it fits this inner script they have that this is all controlled by some invisible conspiracy, when in fact Kerry came out of absolutely nowhere to capture the nomination.

[karynnj]

88. The one I remember the most was Kerry with Rassman

I had been for either Kerry or Dean in 2003 - and worried they would split the same pool of voters. I had and have a lot of respect for both men. As the debates went on, I was impressed with Kerry's answers more than anyone else, but had I been interviewed in fall 2003, I likely would have said "Dean", although I prefered Kerry, because I really did not want any of the other candidates and I would have wanted to add to the momentum Dean had.

I had the one of the cable stations on the day of that reunion as I was doing some work - almost as background noise. I found that I was leaving my task and standing in front of the TV watching Kerry. It was almost like something from a 1940s movie - we are too cynical for it to be a 2007 movie. I doubt I was the only one moved by that - especially when Kerry in response to Rassman's praise, rather shyly saying "anyone would have done it." It was an unscripted very powerful momement. The contrast of a modest hero and the very angry Dean was not good for Dean.

Kerry clearly was simply out of the media's radar when he won that primary.

[defendandprotect]

75. Agree -- Kerry was down there at the bottom of the barrel --

The public wanted DEAN -- obviously!!!!

Who got what they wanted? The public -- no.

Right-wing interests -- ? Yes.

[ruggerson]

78. Oh, yes.

It was the evil conspiracy who FORCED the Democratic voters in Iowa to vote for Kerry over Dean.

They got right into the booth with Iowa voters, hypnotized them and then WROTE KERRY"S name down.

Howard didn't have a chance against the Illuminati.

[karynnj]

86. Iowa was a caucus

So it was even harder - they hypnotised people told them where to go and told them to caucus for Kerry.

The people who say that the "people" wanted Dean base that on the polls in 2003 - when there were no votes. However, they ignore the polls taken in late January and February, 2004 and afterwards after people had seen more of Kerry. Those polls - even those before NH - favored Kerry.

[ruggerson]

87. Yep

Dean imploded in January before Iowa. Something the conspiracy crowd conveniently tries to blur.

[defendandprotect]

73. "Let" . . . ????? Are we "letting" them steal our elections, as well?

Did we "let" the MSM swiftboat Dean -- ????

Perhaps you want to explain how the "bottom of the barrel" according to all polls,
ended up being our nominees . . . Kerry????

You have a lot of faith in elections --

Maybe you want to give some new thought to how Bush Sr went from nowhere to winning NH????
Sununu and computers, perhaps???

Now . . . I'm not saying that the Democratic Party has raised sufficient hell over right-wing control of MSM -- or Republican steals/swiftboating and generally aggression.

What I am saying is that no one has LET Repugs or the MSM do anything --
They have done it all on their own.
The power of right-wing propaganda for one thing is huge -- and not always recognized.

[karynnj]

90. Your claims are based on nothing

The MSM did not "swiftboat" Dean. What despicable lies did they tell? They did point out that he had a temper, which was obvious and they looked at the charges he and Gephardt were throwing back and forth at each other. Also, Iowa was a caucus. Kerry got more than twiceas many people to caucus for him than Dean did.

Kerry was helped by excellent answers in several debates, and good solid work meeting people one to one in Iowa. He also was helped by the tv footage when he met with the guy he saved in Vietnam. That he was obviously in control of his temper and a gentleman helped. (One thing I was impressed by in 2003 was something that I never saw mentioned in the press. I read McCain's account of his and Kerry's work on the POW/MIA issue and knew that it was Kerry who got the Vietnamese to agree to a major effort to repatriate American remains. When Dean's brother was found, giving his family cloture, Kerry did not mention that he was the official most responsible for that happening. )