Hillary not progressive?

[Clintonista2]

That's not what her senate record says. According to http://www.progressivepunch.org/ Hillary has an overall score of 92.07%. Compare that to Obama's 91.38%.

[wyldwolf]

1. Sure she is. She's just not "progressive."

There's a difference.

[draft_mario_cuomo]

2. Why is she singled out as a "corporate whore" when BO raised 76% more than her on Wall Street?

I have yet to see anyone call Wall Street's darling a "corporate whore"...

[jgraz]

5. BO hasn't been around enough to establish his corporate whore street cred

Wait until he introduces a faux-universal health care program that funnels money to his friends in the insurance industry. Only then will he be in Hillary's league.

[wyldwolf]

6. so it isn't the amount you raise from corporations that makes you a corporate whore?

*CLANK*

(the sound a bar makes when it is raised to accommodate a netroots darling)

[jgraz]

13. Yes, because my advocacy for BO has been second to none

(:sarcasm: cuz I know you have trouble with such things)

Why is a criticism of Hillary always counted as support of BO? How weak is her candidacy if the only response to criticism is "B-b-but, Barack did it too!!"? (And don't the rethugs do something like that with her husband?)

[wyldwolf]

23. you're the one who invoked BO in your explanation of "corporate whore."

[jgraz]

3. Pope not Jewish?

Who'da thunk it??? :wow:

[AtomicKitten]

4. Hillary has a very liberal voting record that is simply ignored here

... at best.

[jgraz]

9. But we know these voting record stats are a sham

You only need to look as far as the recent Iraq War Supplemental. Both Hillary and Barack voted the "right" way, but only after the bill was assured of passing. Neither one of them took a strong position on it before the vote.

I haven't been following BO as long as HC, but I can tell you that Hillary has used the same tactics on her votes on Alito, Roberts, and the Military Commissions act. On that last item, she was still "forming her opinion" on torture when I called her office two days before the vote.

And of course, she voted FOR the IWR and the Bankruptcy Bill. How's that "liberal" voting record look now?

Correction: Hillary voted FOR the 2001 gift to the Credit Card industry. She took no position and did not vote on the 2005 bill. My mistake.

[Clintonista2]

11. The word "liberal" was not mentioned on my OP, nor was it mentioned in my link

Typical anti-Hillary arrogance. I'm adressing the fact that Hillary is constantly called "anti-progressive" on DU. Progressive and Liberal are NOT the same thing, and in my post I am adressing the term "progressive." If you want to debate whether she is "liberal" enough or not, I would be happy to do so, however, this is a topic regarding how PROGRESSIVE she is.

[jgraz]

14. Now we get the infinitesimal parsing of the words "liberal" and "progressive"

Boy, is Hillary Clinton the candidate for you.

[William769]

20. She's not a Socialist.

I have come to realize thats the problem here on DU with so many. BTW I'm glad she's not.

[AtomicKitten]

12. Of course there are exceptions (like you point out).

Every vote has implications that aren't factored into this kind of statistical analysis.

However, I agree the exceptions resonate.

[jgraz]

15. I also think the votes stats are dumb when used against Rethugs

Of course they're all going to vote 90%+ with *. Most of the bills they vote on are things like "Resolved: Ice Cream is Yummy". When there are so many things to criticize the GOP on, it rankles to see progressive challengers (esp math whizzes like Al Franken) using this tired ploy.

[MannyGoldstein]

7. She Goes Left On Small Issues, Right On Big Ones

She's gamed the system so that she can claim to vote left on most issues, while delivering the goods to her patrons in the Predator Class.

Waging war on Iraq, 'free' trade with China, the first awful bankruptcy bill... almost all of the big things that are a stark left/right choice.

[Lerkfish]

8. well, which is it? progressive or moderate or centrist?

I've seen her portrayed differntly by different people, sometimes the same people portray her differently from the last time.

If the argument is that we need to avoid the looney left, and go centrist, then why is the argument also that Clinton is progressive?

Not sure how she can be both.

[Clintonista2]

10. Because "progressive" does not mean "loony left", as you put it.

Progressive means progress. Hillary votes in favour of progress over and over again.

[Lerkfish]

16. but what if *I* view being left as progressive?

and you view centrism as progressive?

doesn't really explain why you're characterizing her as "progressive", when you don't accept left as progressive.

maybe you need to use a different label, or maybe I need to understand your label better.

[Clintonista2]

17. "Progressive" seeks moderate change

"Loony left" (a term I don't like, but was brought up by you), really is meant to mean "radical left", or "extreme left", which advocates maximum change. To say that I "don't accept left as progressive" is wrong, what I said was, I don't accept "loony left" as meaning progressive.

[Lerkfish]

18. then we disagree on defintions.

pro·gres·sive Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
1. favoring or advocating progress, change, improvement, or reform, as opposed to wishing to maintain things as they are, esp. in political matters: a progressive mayor.


that definition doesn't include "moderate".

[Clintonista2]

19. Try Websters

Main Entry: 2progressive
Function: noun
1a. One believing in moderate political change and especially social improvement by governmental action

[Lerkfish]

21. as I said, we soundly disagree on definition

I don't accept your definition.

[Clintonista2]

24. Just because you don't accept something, doesn't make it false

[Lerkfish]

25. right, but that goes both ways. You don't accept MY definition, either, right?

that's why we disagree. That's not why you're right and I"m wrong, that's just from your perspective.

[Clintonista2]

28. It's not a question of perception, it's a question of definition.

"Progressive", like it or not, means moderate change, not radical change.

[Lerkfish]

30. as I said, we disagree on the definition.

this is becoming a circular conversation. I"ve already made my point.

[Clintonista2]

32. No, YOU disagree with the definition

You're reminding me of big brother. Just because a word doesn't suit your agenda, doesn't mean you can change the definition. If you don't like the fact that progressive means moderate change, then don't use that word. It's very simple.
=====================================================================================================
Oxford dictionary definition:

progressive

• adjective 1 proceeding gradually or in stages.
=====================================================================================================
Websters definition:

Main Entry: 2progressive
Function: noun
1a. One believing in moderate political change and especially social improvement by governmental action
====================================================================================================
Cambridge definition:

progressive
adjective
1 developing or happening gradually
=====================================================================================================


Sorry if the truth doesn't match what you wanted it to be.

[zbdent]

22. I've said that the Repukes are having to walk a fine line ...

trying to convince their loyal following that she's uberliberal while pointing out how much she supported Bush (to drive away the moderate Dems) ...

[illinoisprogressive]

26. she is a dino. pure and simple

[wyldwolf]

31. are you referring to Obama?

[eridani]

27. The other 10% is the important stuff

Like voting to continue the war, for the PATRIOT Act, for outsourcing, for the corporate agenda where it really counts.

Too bad if women are not more grateful for having their jobs outsourced as long as they can get abortions.

[NaturalHigh]

29. Define her any way you like...

she's still not getting my vote.