Democrats schooling Dean on foreign policy

[Justice]

"The Democratic foreign policy establishment is rallying to the challenge of educating the party's leading outsider, former Vermont governor Howard Dean, with Dean seeking to burnish his credentials and former Clinton administration officials hoping to soften some of Dean's sharp pronouncements."

"Steve Walt, academic dean of the Kennedy School of Government at Harvard University, said: "If you look at the group that seems to be around him, they are solidly from the center wing of the Democratic Party. These are not woolly-headed idealists."

I post this article as a Clark supporter.

I post it for two reasons -to illustrate to DUers that Dean wants help from the Democratic Party establishment -- and acknowledges that he needs help on a very important issue - foreign policy. I am frankly sick and tired of reading that Dean is not part of the establishment. Not only is he part of the establishment, but he needs help from others in the establishment on this key issue (and I would submit - other issues).

Secondly, I post it to show that the Democratic party establishment are all to happy to offer their help - from Albright, Berger and yes, even Bill Clinton because they want to have input on Dean's foreign policy. The establishment is not trying to pull Dean down - they are trying (and were trying long before Dean was the front runner) to support him - in this case to help him learn foreign policy. So let's not keep talking about how bad the DLC is and how they are trying to pull Dean down.

This race is far too important for the United States and indeed the world for people on DU to dig in so far to support their candidate that they would say anything - ANYTHING - negative against another Democratic candidate. I've been away from DU for a few days, and am just digusted with the multiple posts bashing candidates -- with very very posts supporting candidates.

http://www.boston.com/news/politics/president/articles/2003/12/28/democrats_schooling_dean_on_foreign_policy/

Edited to add link

[madfloridian]

1. Amen,

It is out of control.

[kstewart33]

2. This is good news

Maybe being schooled by the best the Dems have on foreign policy will help him. He surely needs more expertise here. I just hope he puts aside his ego and listens and learns.

[killbotfactory]

5. He's been learning all year

He asks probing questions to knowledgeable people, and comes up with what he thinks is right. He uses a scientific process to come to conclusions politically. That's why he doesn't care for ideologues.

[patricia92243]

3. Good Post! Glad to hear my guy is getting briefings on foreign policy

I had heard that the Clinton's were not in his camp - glad to hear that's not true. Wish Clinton's would do more campaigning for our party - maybe they later.

[janx]

4. This isn't news to Dean supporters, but thanks for posting it.

He unveiled his advisors some weeks ago--around the time of his foreign policy speech. He has had a lot of input from a lot of really impressive people along the way. It has been going on for quite awhile.

[madfloridian]

6. Right, he is only liberal on social issues. Not foreign policy.

His foreign policy speech before the Pacific Institute impressed them, and they are no liberals.

I don't know where people figured he was not knowledgeable.
:shrug:

[Lefty48197]

10. Dean said there was a "hole in his resume" regarding foreign policy

I'm sure Team Bush already has their campaign commercial filmed with that quote in it.

[Justice]

7. Dean Supporters Knew That "The Establishment" Was Helping Dean?

Really? One would have never guessed that from reading DU. It is funny to read a post that says - yes, we knew that. Guess what, Dean supporters have done a terrible job of getting that message out on DU.

The Democratic party as a whole is interested in helping Dean if he wins the nomination and Dean needs the Democratic party as a whole to win the general election.

That is my point.

I will also add that I teach my daughter to be both a good winner and a good loser. If Dean wins the nomination, it will be up to Dean and up to Dean supporters to be good winners -- so that other candidates and supporters of other candidates can be good losers.

Saying, yeah we knew that the party was helping Dean - after reading post after post of how the establishment is out to get Dean posted by Dean supporters is an example of what not to do.

[janx]

8. I'm a little confused by your two messages.

I first heard rumblings about Clinton administration people meeting with Dean on foreign policy at least six months ago. But such people didn't only meet with Dean.

His current crop of advisors was revealed at around the time of his foreign policy speech, as I said. More than a few of them have roots in the Clinton administration. I'm sure they were around before that. The speech and the advisors were mentioned on DU. It could have been drowned out by all of the candidate bashing. If you missed it, that's probably why.

Is this what you wanted to know?

[Justice]

9. What is There To Be Confused About -

My point is simple. The establishment is helping Dean, Dean is taking help from the establishment. Some Dean supporters on DU say the establishment is working to undermine Dean. Your acknowledgement as a Dean supporter shows that Dean supporters have known that the establishment was helping Dean.

So, certain Dean supporters on DU aren't being truthful.

I support Clark, but want ABB. I don't want to be keep reading really horrible lies about other candidates on DU. It makes me sick to see democrats stooping to such levels. Debate is fine - but some DU poster revel in lies.

I am tired of it.

[janx]

11. To be fair, there has been a lot of misinformation about Dean

and about other candidates. Much of it originates from the right wing. The famous "Clinton/Gore" split lie was one such example. It's all a bunch of gossip. I tried like mad to stop that lie once it hit DU, but to no avail. People were in some kind of a frenzy about it.

Dean was the outsider candidate at the beginning; that much is certainly true. As support for him coalesced, more and more people from various quarters became interested in him.

You might use a little caution before accusing "some Dean supporters" of "not being truthful" though.

A lot of this would depend on when they said what they said and what they knew when they said it. (And since I don't know the specifics, I'm afraid I can't help you there.)

[janx]

12. I have some idea as to what you might be talking about.

Perhaps Dean supporters were talking about D.C. "establishment" dems like Kerry, Gephardt, and Lieberman. They certainly have been working to undermine Dean--they're running against him, after all. People associated with any one of those campaigns would be working and did in fact work to undermine him. So that's a possibility.

[janx]

13. Here is the announcement from DFA regarding his speech

and advisors (I've posted only the first 4 paragraphs and there's more at the link):

Dean Announces Foreign Policy & National Security Advisors
Governor Dean today announced the team of distinguished experts who will advise his campaign on national security and foreign policy. Dean will deliver a major address on national security today in Los Angeles at 1:30 pm ET (10:30 am PT). We will post a transcript as soon as it is available. The advisors are:

Benjamin R. Barber is Kekst Professor of Civil Society at the University of Maryland and is the author "Strong Democracy," "Jihad Vs. McWorld," and "Fear's Empire: War, Terrorism And Democracy." He has been an informal advisor to former President Bill Clinton.

Ashton B. Carter is Co-Director (with former Secretary of Defense William J. Perry) of the Harvard-Stanford Preventive Defense Project and former Assistant Secretary of Defense for International Security Policy in the Clinton administration.

Ivo H. Daalder is a Senior Fellow at The Brookings Institution and served as Director for European Affairs on the National Security Council during the Clinton administration.

http://blog.deanforamerica.com/archives/002697.html

(By the way, this was dated December 15.)

[JNelson6563]

14. I believe for a time they were

I think, outside of the establishment candidates and their die-hard supporters, most of the establishment now realizes Dean may very well be the nominee and we see much more cooperation.

I do believe tho' that Dean is not their first choice and, another belief I hold goes with that, I do not believe for a minute Clark jumped into the race because a few thousand folks e-mailed and asked him to. ;-) I don't believe anyone from the establishment has thrown in the towel regarding Clark, just that they are getting their minds around the possibility of a Dean nomination.

Julie

[janx]

15. The DLC guys (From and some other guy)

were coming after him pretty heavily for awhile. That one's not easy to forget.

They sent out a couple of anti-Dean memos, if I remember correctly.

[Justice]

16. Belief Is Not Fact

That is my point. This article shows that Albright, Berger and Clinton were helping Dean many months ago - last summer or more.

Again, you say the "establishment candidates" as if that is not Dean. Dean is as much an establishment candidate as anyone else, except Sharpton or Kunich or CMB perhaps.

You don't believe that Clark jumped into the race because of thousands of grassroots supporters? Fine, as long as you couch it as your belief and not as fact. Because I was there, and I saw it happen.

Do you believe that some of Dean's support and contributions come from
republicans? Do you believe that every mistake Kerry made on the campaign trail was played up to the hilt so as to discredit him as a candidate? Do you believe the press went easy on Dean until very recently? I do.

[JNelson6563]

23. I never said it was

I'm not one of those folks who puts forth my opinion and tries to disguise it as fact. I have little tolerance for those who do.

As to what you "saw" while you were "there", interestingly enough it sure doesn't quite mesh with my insider information.

And I disagree with your beliefs. Though I will say this for your believe regarding Dean getting $$ from R's. I know that in the beginning the R's probably thought they wanted Dean and maybe they did help his campaign $$. Now I'd wager the only ones contributing now are a.) those who leave the R's in disgust (as Mem. Chair of my local Dem E-board I've had the pleasure of signing them up) and b.) those who still foolishly believe the GOP wants Dean.

But of course it's all opinion and speculation on everyone's part. Some of us are honest enough to admit that's what most of it is, some are not.

Julie

[Justice]

26. This is Like Rock Paper Scissors

Does fact beat belief?

Does "being there" beat "insider information"?

Does opinion and speculation beat honesty?

[JNelson6563]

28. Just what are you inferring here?

Does opinion and speculation beat honesty?

Julie

[Justice]

37. Just making the analogy

Your post said that it is all opinion and speculation - and that some were honest enough to admit that and some were not. I was applying that statement to my analogy - do opinion and speculation beat honesty.

When people make posts here, typically it is opinion and speculation. Sometimes that is honest opinion and speculation - sometimes it is for entertainment purposes and sometimes it is flamebait - or dishonest. Not putting you in any category - just making the analogy between your remarks and rock paper scissors.

[dansolo]

36. Inevitability

I believe that the DLC was working to undermine Dean. That is not inconsistent with what is happening more recently. Even with all of the attacks, Dean is still the strong frontrunner, and looks to be the eventual nominee. If the DLC isn't completely self-destructive, they will now want to make nice with him so he won't completely shut them out. And Dean is smart to not hold a grudge and accept their help, now that it is offered.

[madfloridian]

17. Dean has said this publicly often. It is no secret. Why are you so mad?

Dean has been very open about it, just as all the candidates have. They often use the same advisors, and Dean has pointed that out as well.

I am not a real good loser when it is my country I am losing. I tend to get mad about losing my country and having my president lie to me.

As a whole the Democratic party is not against Dean. There are a few though whose agenda would be hurt.

[Justice]

18. Thank You

My frustration is directed at those on DU who aren't as honest as you about Dean's involvement with the establishment.

While typically it is easy to ignore them, today they just seem to be on a rampage.

I am also offended that some think they can say any negative thing about a candidate, because they believe we are so ABB, that we will "come together" after the nomination.

[janx]

19. I think it might be wise to offer a definition of "establishment."

The establishment you are referencing--the foreign policy community mentioned in the article--does not seem to be the same "establishment" some Dean supporters were talking about.

[Justice]

20. Albright, Bill Clinton and Berger

Are all pretty much in the inner circle of the Democratic Party.
People say Clinton is pushing Clark, and Clark and Albright worked together and she is on record as having "high regard" for him. Yet, it seems like these folks are supportive of the Democratic candidates as a whole and want them to be well armed against Bush. Perhaps we on DU could take a lesson from them?

I am not sure the Dean supporters listed many people by name - they kept referring to the DLC and Al From. But then they say, Clinton is the DLC and From is Clinton's man.

[janx]

24. Clinton isn't pushing anyone. That is part of the media lie

that was spread hither and yon about a month ago. Clinton has stated that he will support whoever gains the nomination to run against Bush, and I for one fully take him at his word on that. That's how it should be; he's the former president.

You are right that these foreign policy people have met with a number of the candidates--the article states as much. They want whoever receives the nomination to be as prepared as possible, as no doubt do various advisers on domestic policy.

This hardly makes Dean an "establishment" candidate. One constant criticism of the guy has been that he's the former governor of a small state, no?

Al From and at least one other guy from the DLC have come after him. First there were a couple of memos. Even now you can find anti-Dean quotes by From in another current thread on this board. I find this to be in bad form, personally, and you probably agree. But From is most likely backing some other candidate. That's probably all there is to it.

So as I review this whole thing, no, I don't think that Dean supporters were lying when they referred to the establishment's going after Dean. The DLC power guys certainly were. Lieberman, Kerry, and Gephardt were too. That's D.C. establishment, truly.

But the DNC (as opposed to the DLC) is warming up to him. Look for an thread on the board that mentions "The Contender." Melinda posted it.

It's really easy to assimilate some cyber/media rumors and internalize them. I think we should watch out for that kind of thing; it's classic Rovean procedure, and it's only going to get much worse as we head into the next year.

[Justice]

27. Glad You Agree That Clinton Is Not Playing Favorites

What I said was that other DUers are repeating the Media lie that Clinton is backing Clark - some even say Clinton is pulling Clark's strings. That is wrong, and very destructive as it undermines Clark's own ability and it undermines Clinton's role as former president. I agree that Clinton should support the nominee, and not play favorites. Frankly, I thought Gore should have done the same - but that is now not possible. I realize others disagree, but I think Gore would have been more helpful to the party if he stood up for the nominee and the process, and not for a particular candidate I the primary.

I did not say that Dean was THE establishment candidate or that he is the status quo (that came from another remark). I am just trying to dispel the myth that he is anti-establishment. He is in the mix with the establishment - not because of his past position, but because of his past policies and relationships with members of the establishment. That is all I am saying. Whew.

It is really important to not say that because Al From has criticized Dean that it means all of the DLC is criticizing Dean. It is also important not to generalize that the establishment is critical of Dean just because there are other specific candidates (some of whom had jobs in DC) criticizing Dean out of their own self interest - they want to be the nominee. Perhaps fundementally that is what people are doing.

And for good measure, although not addressed on this thread, but it comes up every hour on DU - it is really important not to take one sentence or one remark and turn it into the definitive statement by a candiate on all issues, take it out of context and/or read into it things that just aren't there. That is classic Rovean procedure.

I appreciate this discussion - thanks for your input.

[janx]

31. Now I'm confused all over again. What parts of Dean do you

find to be of the "establishment," and what do you mean by that? You mentioned past policies--which of those and why?

I just don't understand it.

I'm well aware that the DLC encompasses a lot--that's why I mentioned From and power brokers. (Reed comes to mind.)

Here, you say: "It is also important not to generalize that the establishment is critical of Dean just because there are other specific candidates (some of whom had jobs in DC) criticizing Dean out of their own self interest - they want to be the nominee. Perhaps fundementally that is what people are doing."

I hope you don't mean to imply that I said anything like that.

"And for good measure, although not addressed on this thread, but it comes up every hour on DU - it is really important not to take one sentence or one remark and turn it into the definitive statement by a candiate on all issues, take it out of context and/or read into it things that just aren't there. That is classic Rovean procedure."

I have no idea what you mean here.

[madfloridian]

25. The DLC varies greatly in the views of their members.

Bob Graham was one of the founders of this think tank, yet he has dismissed some of their goals as not so good.

Dean was a member when he was governor, and if you look at the membership list it is huge!

I just do not like the leadership. I am angry because I do think in my mind that they did not back Gore up in 2000 during the recount. I don't know why.

I think the leadership discouraged him from running this time, I don't know all the whys.

I find Al From quite sickening, and I don't care much for Bruce Reed either. If you do research on the founding of this group, you will find some stuff that shows some real conservative folks behind the original funding.

I have some of the research, but it is not organized. I hope someone else will jump in. I have seen good threads on the subject here.

[TeacherCreature]

33. For Christ's sake what is your point?

Just spit it out.

Al From is DLC, lots of people are DLC including Clinton. I am sure the DLC doesn't run Clinton's life. I am also sure the Al From and Clinton don't agree on everything. I am also sure that all members of the DLC are not against Dean now that he is doing so well and none of them want to be associated with a loser candidate.

However Al From is still a fat headed idiot who never got elected to office and should go climb under a rock. He is still making nasty comments about Dean. If you don't believe it just go look it up on the internet.

Dean is anti-establishment, sorry but he earned that title by going against the war and the establishment democrats. The fact that some people associated with the "establishment" are advising him doesn't change that. Dean is also not a far left liberal. He is a populist and this is why he has so much support across party lines.

You are not going to separate Deans support from him by pretending he is something he is not or by suggesting we are too dumb to know better than you, who he is and what he stands for.

[janx]

35. I still don't understand what the point of this thread is.

It seems to change with every second post or so, and just when I think I understand what is meant, the whole game changes.

?

[Justice]

38. Right

Okay then. So much for dialogue.

I am not trying to separate Dean's supporters from him for any reason. I acknowledge his front runner status.

I am only making the point that Dean -- again long before he was the front runner - was looking to key members of the so called establishment for help and that the so called establishment was ready and willing to help him.

My post was not sinister; Dean supporters wanted to find something sinister in it. I posted the story to make my point only.

I have not remarked on posts here that say article makes Dean look less than stellar on foreign policy instead of addressing my post; nor have I remarked on posts that attack other candidates rather than address my post.

I guess I still believe that Dean is solidly within the center of the Democratic party - the DLC, the inner DC circle, a leader within the governor's association. He determined to remake himself for this election - which is fine - but aside from his stance on the war in Iraq - his stand on issues is pretty much just like the rest of the candidates. This article supported my view.

[Rose Siding]

21. He is outside of the establishment's sources for money

so he doesn't have the same kind of obligations.

[madfloridian]

22. I don't understand your point yet. Dean is not status quo.

Is that what you mean? I mean he has sought out a wide variety of advisors, as the article shows. He has even talked to some who also advise the GOP....as have the other candidates. They have all done it.

I think that he has certain values he will stay with, and no advisors will move him on them.

[RetroLounge]

32. "One would have never guessed that from reading DU"

That's because DU isn't the real world.

:eyes:

[adadem]

29. I would hope

we nominate a Democratic candidate who doesn't need intense "schooling". I certainly don't see this article
as a positive...in light of the current world situation.
If anything it confirms the doubts I had when I left
the Dean camp.

[janx]

30. All candidates receive "schooling" (by advisors) at some point.

It's fairly standard procedure for all kinds of policy.

[TeacherCreature]

34. I hope we don't nominate one who can't learn anything

because he is so dull or so sure he already knows it all (Kerry, Lieberman, Gephardt and Edwards)